Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[HRH Kerry]

Okay, I haven't been up on Russian history and I admit that. Young Alexei's remains were never found, right? But with the modern technology in science today, it is very possible to but some of these claims to rest. The DNA of the deceased Romanov family has already been catalogued so it wouldn't prove too difficult. But then again, that could open up the door for more people to throw their names in the kitty.

 

[BorisRom]

Kerry,
Yes, you are right.

 

[BorisRom]

some objective certificates

Now, let me to designate some objective certificates of movement of Russia to restoration of a monarchy.
___ 1. Every year of ever less of Russians want the restoration of the USSR and more and more Russians are interested in a history of imperial Russia. According to last polls, only 17 % of Russians want the restoration of the USSR. On the other hand, heads of the largest telechannels speak, that the telecasts and films about Imperial Russia have high growing ratings. N.B.: nostalgia about Imperial Russia is nostalgia about time of board of Nikolay II in 1906-1917 (constitutional monarchy). Starting approximately since 2003 in Russian mass-media in increasing frequency there are articles for the benefit of the monarchy.
However, unfortunately, a relation of Russians to democracy improves slowly. I think, now no more than half of Russians completely support all democratic principles.
___ 2. As "lord rankin" has correctly noted,
“Considering President Putin holds more constitutional power than Tsar Nicholas II did after 1905 , I would think moving to a constitutional monarchy would be incredibly beneficial and contribute to the stabilization of the political climate there. I have read and learned much about the Russian culture in my life and I have to say that Russians seem to gravitate to a central figure of authority and respect. I believe a monarchy would fulfill that need”.
___ I think, president Putin does not wish restoration of a monarchy, but many Russians already perceive him as "tsar". 38 % of Russians are ready to give to him lifelong presidency However, 95 % of Russians would like to see as a president (a tsar?) such person, as the Spanish king Juan CARLOS!
___ 3. The Bishops's cathedral of Russian Orthodox Church several years ago has accepted «A social doctrine ROC» where it is written, that ROC counts a theocracy as the maximum(supreme) form of a state system, and the following form more comprehensible and favorable to the Christians is a monarchy.

Boris

 

[HRH Kerry]

Maybe Putin would think he has to compete with the monarchy. You did state that his approval rating is 70-73%. After all, monarchies seem to have a positive effect on their people. Maybe the president won't be too happy if his rating takes another beating.

 

[BorisRom]

Kerry,
Do you mean Putin’s rating as president now 70-73% vs his rating as “lifelong president” 38%?
May be, but I don’t think that it is the main reason of his un-wish to go on third president election.

 

[HRH Kerry]

No. I just meant his ratings going down even further with a monarchy in place. The monarchy would be more popular with the people than the president.

 

[magnik]

They doesn't need they has V.P.

 

[BorisRom]

They doesn't need they has V.P.

On the contrary, Magnik :
We have V.P. therefore we need.
Regards
Boris

 

[BorisRom]

AdmiralSteven gave the interesting link
(in other topic at this Forum [Reburial of Empress Marie Feodorovna: 23-28 September 2006]):

Radio Free Europe\Radio Liberty, Oktouber 2, 2006
“Russia: Monarchist Nostalgia Remains Powerful “
by Victor Yasmann

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/10/ebcf0091-3b24-437a-af91-04b42dc81aa1.html

One quotation:
“Over the last 10 years, the number of Russians supporting monarchist ideas has risen threefold. A September poll by the All-RussiaCenter for the Study of Public Opinion (VTsIOM) indicated that 19 percent of Russians agreed with restoring the monarchy, but only if an acceptable candidate can be found. Support is higher in Moscow and St. Petersburg.
But only 6 percent of those who favor the monarchy wanted the future guardian of the realm to be a Romanov. The majority thought a monarch should be a prominent public figure chosen in a referendum. In this way, the poll reveals less the prevalence of monarchist ideas than a traditional Russian desire for strong leadership”.

Thus, only about 1% of Russians agreed with restoring the monarchy with Romanov’s Dynasty. I think, this insignificant-sad percent in significant and even in the main degree is caused by the 74-years defamation (1917-1991) images of Nicholas II by Soviet historians.

I think, that modern Russian and foreign authors of books about Nicholas II should relate to "the Soviet stamps" about him with big caution.
I think, many at this forum will agree that Nicholas II has been defamed (by "an irreconcilable opposition") else at time of his life and that false myths about him have been hundredfold increased by the Soviet historians and that many of these wrong stamps are alive even till now.
I think the following five theses are most needing in objective consideration:
__1. Nicholas II was a man of weak will.
__2. Positive achievements of Russia in 1894-1914 have been made by famous clever ministers of his government (by Vitte and Stolypin) - and Nicholas II has prevented from their reforms more likely, than helped them.
__3. Nicholas II aspired to «small victorious war» against Japan.
__4. Nicholas II is guilty of awful events of "Bloody Sunday» on January, 9, 1905.
__5. Nicholas II has made a mistake, having headed Russian army in August, 1915 owing to what Russia has ostensibly lost the war by 1917 and revolution began.
__6. Nicholas II has not undertaken sufficient efforts for prevention and suppression of revolt in Petrograd in February, 1917.
__7. Rasputin has strongly and negatively influenced on an acceptance of political decisions in Imperial family through empress Alexandra.
I think, these seven are the main false myths about Nicholas II. There are still other wrong stamps, but these seven are main, I think.
Certainly, I do not think that Nicholas II was «the ideal ruler» of Russia. He made mistakes and had some wrong ideas (for example, he was the anti-semite always; and other things), but I am going to expose these seven main false myths here.
Whether you count these seven theses the truth, or false myths? I would like to find out your opinion at first.

I do not know, whether the monarchy with Romanov's dynasty will be restored in Russia, but the truth about Nicholas II should be restored.
I think in really much more than 1% of Russians would agree with the restoring of the monarchy with Romanov’s Dynasty, but the percents most probably are not more 3-4% now. Nevertheless, I can remind that Yeltsin began the second presidential company from 1996 with a rating of 2-3 % (and he has won); also Putin began the first presidential company from August 1999 with a rating of 3-5 % and he has won too. Russia is an unpredictable country till now.

Alas, Russia has “an unpredictable past” till now - too turned black (by the Soviet historians) till 1917 (Tsar's Russia) and too turned white (by the Kremlin at last two-three years) after 1917 (USSR) - and “this unpredictable past” can induce an unpredictable bad future for Russia.

Boris

 

[Iverieli]

Dear Black Cat,

I'm Georgian and if you used to live in USSR you know really good who I am.

Russia need Monarchy! Thats only way to Russia became really stable political and democratic country. Many russians are Orthodox christians and you will know how Orthodox church looks about monarchy. The church is first supporter for monarchy.

But, there's one "But" does anyone have reason why russian monarchy goes down and revolution happens? I got one very interesting reason for it.

Was 1801 year and that year Russia annexed Georgian Kingdom and canceled Georgian Royal House. Georgian Orthodox Church was very oldest and independence church from 6th century and Christianity in Georgian became State Religion on 319 years. The russians abandoned everything, took our independency, our Church's independency and Many members of Royal House of Georgia arrested and moved to Russia. That was very big shame. And Russians still not saying nothing about forgiveness.

Georgian Orthodox Church is very big supporter to reinstate monarchy in Georgia. Also there's too much people who really working for this idea. I hope one day Monarchy will reinstate in Georgia. After that maybe possible to same things happens in Russia too.

Russian people were very religious before 1917 revolution and from that time many of them lost it. If russian people return the Church then it will be more easy to reinstate monarchy but after Georgian's. Because Russians took everything from as and still doing this now. Sorry to say it but if you want to talk about Russian monarchy don't forget Georgia and history, what Russian Royal House and government did not to very long time ago.

 

[aristocrat31350]

Naturally that Russia needs a monarchy. I have travelled to Russia many times and could you tell me what would be today Russia without the monumental legacy left by the Romanovs?

Russia in the time of Nicholas the II was at the peak of its widsom, the best musicians, the best writers, the best artists, beuaty was paramount and if socially was not developed as the Western European Countries are today I must state that at that time the Western European countries were not socially developed either.

Russia needs to find a historical soul, a symbol of the motherland and this could be completed only restoring the Romanov dynasty. Russia during the Romanov dynasty was the most beautiful country in the world, magically beautiful. Russia needs to recover al its past splendour now that wealth in the country is foreseen. Russia needs "soul" and the "Soul" is and can only be called "Romanov"

 

[chancellor]

Greetings,

Russia has a soul, just go into any Orthodox Church listen to the Liturgy, the liturgy is guidance to life, intinsic to the ''Soul'' of Russ is the strong spirit that still survives despite the massive changes, the ''Soul'' is still alive and well. the spiritual life is every growing in Russ, the unbroken chain of the Byzantine spirit still abounds.

you can check our web site for the oldest Imperial Organisation since the revolution. Russian Imperial Order Austraila there are links to the international site as well.

THANKYOU !!

 

[Warren]

I've removed some posts about Georgia. This thread is about Russia and "does it need Monarchy?". The history of Georgia can be discussed elsewhere.

thanks,
Warren
Russian moderator

 

[lucien]

Small wonder a "warning sign" has been added to this thread.It's as tricky as a land mine.

But as to the original question,no,I don't think so.All the style and beauty that once was,is just that,it once was,but gone now and highly unlikely to be restored ever,inspite so-called prophecies by lone souls,it would only result,again,in chaos.

The legacy in history and monuments is grand.The present attitude gready,corrupt to the bone and backward as if they've not learned anything.

Russia has a soul,yes,tucked away deep in chants,I do love the Russian Orthodox chants and can imagine the old Russia clinging on to the church,people had little else to cling on too,but the Russian Orthodox church now is doing exactly what it always did,keeping the people backward with long overhauled hypocrite attitudes and dogma's in an medieval way.

Russia has never been,and will never be a democracy,as you can witness a true democracy by the way it treats it's minorities,need i say more.By the way its people can speak and act freely,without being oppressed and murdered and by how it is not just a handfull of Kremlin
crooks and oligarchs that can fill their pockets and get away with it.

As Alexandra Feodorovna once said in a letter to Nicky;"Russia needs the whip".

It is an impossible nation to establish democracy in,it will only cause more havock and even more greed,if that is possible.Let alone that a "Grand Duchess",Princess in reality,in Madrid could ever accomplish that,the granddaughter of a backstabbing Angst Hase treator Romanov,
the son of scheming Miechen.The Pauline Act excludes her from the Throne if implemented correctly,the lack of intellect the rest as she's
not a "light bulb" nor is Georgy,her son.But then that is just another word in contradiction with Russia,"correctly".

And before that,all attempts to claim a Russian Throne again would bound to be a failure and disaster,not so much by the russian people,but by the never ending feuds within the Romanov family itself,besides all other reasons,it's them who would make this whole hullabaloo a charade.

Russia seems it can never bring about a change,any change,without the use of centuries old methods.Russia is unpredictable and the slav mentality paramount,incomprehensible mood swings the result.

All that is left is dreaming and idolising & beyond,of a time that can't and never will be restored.

 

[BorisRom]

<...> Russia is unpredictable and the slav mentality paramount,incomprehensible mood swings the result.

Lucien,
It is a lot of truth in your words and I understand, that this look at Russia and Russian people (nation) has the right to existence. However, I do not think, that the main reason of all troubles of Russia consists in «slavic mentality». Czechs, Slovaks, Poles are Slavs too, but they have other history.

Russia till now cannot recover from 73 years of the Soviet authority. «The moment of true» was in Russia in August - September, 1991, but the nation with the broken backbone could not fix this victory over communism.
During board of Boris Yeltsin in Russia only 6 % of the population approved "stalinism"; by present time this wild imperial doctrine is approved more than 15 % of the population (on some sociological researches even more). It is very sad and vile.
Not less than 20 % of citizens of the USSR cooperated with KGB or were informers of KGB. 70 years of authority of communists have perverted consciousness of people at a genetic level. The most fair, best and courageous people have been destroyed during 1917-1953 in wars or in Gulag. Communists during 70 years have made of Russians a population of the slaves respecting only strong authority and compulsion.
By the way, east Germans ("the best pupils" of Russian communists) also have similar problems till now and up to 40 % of east Germans (of former GDR) have the broken consciousness till now.
Certainly, Gorbachev's "Perestroyka" and the first years of board of Boris Yeltsin have filled our society with pure(clean) air of freedom, but the nation with the broken backbone and the damaged(injured) genetics is subject to relapses of melancholy across the "great" past of USSR. Boris Yeltsin in 1991-1993 could carry out easily necessary lustracion, even in the soft form, but he has not made it. Now not less than 70 % of the supreme posts in the state (and in business!) natives of KGB (FSB)or former officials of the CPSU of a high rank occupy.
Certainly, I hope nevertheless, that Russia will overcome these relapses … If the prices for oil will go down in two or three times The ultrahigh prices for oil allow the Kremlin to not be engaged in economic reforms, in development of small and average business and in development of democracy.

We (Russians) should bring a collective repentance for the brutal murder of Imperial family. Patriarch ROC (Alexey II) has called for a general repentance for this terrible sin (he made it on July, 15, 2003), however till now even itself ROC (all Archbisops) has not made it. The majority of Russians at all does not understand, why we should bring a repentance for this murder. Alas.
I think, Russia will not go to a true way till all people will not understand it.

Boris

 

[chancellor]

HIH GD Maria of Russia visiting far East Russia [poor translation by news paper]

Empress Maria in Vladivostok


*VLADIVOSTOK**, July 11 07, vladivostoktimes.com* A high guest - the Head of Russian imperial house Her Imperial Highness Her Majesty Great Princess Maria Vladimirovna (de jure All-Russian Empress) will come to Vladivostok in the beginning of August, as /Vladivostok/ reports.

This year on invitation of Russian Orthodox Church Maria Vladimirovna has visited Moscow, and also some central areas of Russia - Tula, Novgorod, and Samara. Visit to Vladivostok can become a precedent: the eastern outpost of Russia will receive the Head of Russian imperial house for the first time. Till that time the highest person of the Romanovs' house who visited Primorye capital was crown prince Nicholas, who became the Emperor Nicholas the Second.

The Great Princess (the only daughter of the Head of Russian imperial house His Imperial Majesty HIH Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich and HIH GD Leonida Georgievna, born Princess Bagration-Mukhranskaya-Gruzinskaya) was born in Spain and lives there, graduated from Oxford University, speaks Russian fluently among some other languages. As the official site of Russian imperial house reports, Great Princess was brought up in Orthodox faith and is devoted to interests of Russia. She contracted equal origin marriage to Prince Franz-Wilhelm Prussian in 1976. Because Great Princess had to head the Romanovs' house, dynastic agreement was made and legalized before marriage. According to it Prince Franz-Wilhelm Prussian accepted Orthodoxy and joined Russian imperial house with the name Michael Pavlovich and title Grand Duke.

The purpose and program of the planned visit of Great Princess to Vladivostok are still unknown. But it's known that Primorye authorities are preparing for it. Nevertheless, supporters of sovereign democracy have nothing to be afraid of - in her public speech Her Imperial Highness spoke more than once that she doesn't plan to impose monarchy on Russian people against their will.

 

[chancellor]

Kerensky in Australia

He als lived in Australia for awhile in Queensland, his wife was Australian

The episode that acts as a catalyst for this little known event in Australian history and one of the more compelling, is that of Kerensky, one time prime minister of Russia, used to the luxury of the Waldorf Astoria and the culture of Vienna and Paris, one of the unwilling architects of the Russian Revolution, taking a holiday at a summer cubana at Surfers Paradise With his nerves shattered by Nell's death , Kerensky was invited by Nell's cousin Corbett (later to become private secretary to Robert Menzies) to recover his health at a family holiday cubana at Surfers Paradise. At a party held in his honour, Kerensky amazed his hosts by telling them that he expected to share Trotsky's fate and imagined he was being stalked by assassins. When someone disturbed him at night, he became so distressed that he immediately returned to Clayfield. His lectures at the University of Melbourne were beset by problems and were not a success. Kerensky returned to America six months later where he took up an offer to become a staff member of the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace at Stanford University in California.

A brief but interesting part of his life

 

[chancellor]

continuation within the laws of Russian Succsession

Not really because the Tsar Nicholas had already abdicated in favor of his brother, this would have nullified the Tsarevich's rights. And, along with that, the new Tsar was only in "office" for 1 day, the chances of any monarchy, let alone a constitutional one were almost non-existant

Re Layla

Please refer to the Russian imperial Union Order for a lengthy anaylsis of this by Brian Horan on this subject also Daniel Sargis a Georgian writer on the issue also

 

[sirhon11234]

It would be very interesting to see Russia become a monachy again after the Revolution. I wonder if they would want their jewels back if they come back into power.

 

[sirhon11234]

Naturally that Russia needs a monarchy. I have travelled to Russia many times and could you tell me what would be today Russia without the monumental legacy left by the Romanovs?

Russia in the time of Nicholas the II was at the peak of its widsom, the best musicians, the best writers, the best artists, beuaty was paramount and if socially was not developed as the Western European Countries are today I must state that at that time the Western European countries were not socially developed either.

Russia needs to find a historical soul, a symbol of the motherland and this could be completed only restoring the Romanov dynasty. Russia during the Romanov dynasty was the most beautiful country in the world, magically beautiful. Russia needs to recover al its past splendour now that wealth in the country is foreseen. Russia needs "soul" and the "Soul" is and can only be called "Romanov"

But wasn't Russia in poverty during the last decade of the Romanov's power over Russia.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Oh it was. Whilst the Imperial Family and their courtiers lived in extreme wealth, there was extreme poverty which affected the majority of the population. And that's probably the biggest factor in the fall of the Russian Monarchy which is why any restoration would have to have financial benefits.

 

[sirhon11234]

But would it be good for Russia to restore its monarchy again?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well, if the Russians want it yes. But right now, Russia has more important things to worry about.

 

[BorisRom]

But wasn't Russia in poverty during the last decade of the Romanov's power over Russia.

ACHIEVEMENTS of Russia during the period of Nicholas's II reign
_____1. In Nicholas's II reign a Russian financial-currency system has been created. The rouble "restricted" franc and mark, overtook dollar and promptly came nearer to pound sterling. For the first time in a history of Russia the incomes exceeded charges: in 1908 this excess was 30 million gold roubles - in 1912 a proficiency was already 335 million. It is very important, that it occured without increase in tax burden.
_____2. The burden of direct taxes at Nicholas II in Russia was twice less, than in France and Germany, and in 8.5 times less, than in England. All this has led to blossoming of Russian industry and to an inflow of capitals from all advanced countries.
_____3. During the period with 1894 for 1913 the young Russian industry has increased the productivity twice. An extent of railways increased for 1574 kilometers one year (the best parameter of the USSR (by 1956) has made 995 kilometers.)
_____4. The agriculture of Russia promptly developed too. Within 1894-1914 a harvesting of bread was doubled. With 1907 for 1913 the crops of the basic cereal cultures in Russia on third were higher, than in the USA, Canada and Argentina taken together. Never in the future (in USSR) it repeated! Russia became the basic provision dealer to the Western Europe; 70% percent of world (global) export of oil and 50% of world (global) export of eggs made at Russia. On a change to bearded Russian merchants there came the industrialists and financiers having behind shoulders the Russian and foreign universities. On the rivers of the country the biggest in the world a river fleet was.
_____5. "Silver Age" in art, "Golden Age" in the literature and publishing, blossoming of journalism, a newspaper affair, occurrence of thousand of every possible magazines, hundreds new museums and fifty temples only in one Petersburg - all this has taken place in reign of Nikolay Aleksandrovich Romanov.
_____6. He gives to the country of a basis of parliamentary democracy and free elections, he watches closely these processes, perfectly understanding, that Russia is not absolutely ready to similar transformations.
_____7. Unprecedented earlier a program of national education is entered. Universities and higher educational institutions experience a blossoming, using freedom which they never had and will not have in the future. By 1913 the general(common) budget of national education achieves the enormous sum - half-billion gold roubles, and rate of its gain for twenty years - 628 %! Right at the beginning of Nicholas's II reign the elementary education in Russia becomes free-of-charge, and since 1908 - obligatory. Unprecedented earlier a development is experienced with Russian science.

Nicholas's II reign is an real RUSSIAN MIRACLE. The wide open space for creative and creative activity opened, it has grasped all Russian society. Russian intellect has received a powerful charge, probably, for the first time for one thousand years in full. The most interesting plans of new economic reforms and a financial policy were still ahead.
Certainly, would be silly to deny, that during Nicholas's reign in Russia there was not many problems, inevitable at so prompt movement from a feudal gloom to a civilization, at a jump from world outsiders - into world leaders.

In addition, under Nikolay's initiative right at the beginning of his reign the first in a history of a civilization an attempt to limit « race of arms » by the wide international contract has been undertaken. In 1898 his government, under his initiative has suggested to call the international conference for discussion of a question on disarmament. Conference has taken place in Hague in 1899 - I already mentioned it earlier.
I think, not everyone know, that the decisions and the charters of the Hague conferences were included then as a basis in the charter of League of the Nations and then in the basic authorized documents of the United Nations.

Boris

 

[BorisRom]

But wasn't Russia in poverty during the last decade of the Romanov's power over Russia.

I have found out recently, that the President the USA Taffetas (Taft?) in 1912 has told about Nicholas II:
"Russian emperor has created such perfect working legislation of what any democratic state till now cannot brag".
Really, the social status of workers in Russia those years was rather good. Nicholas conducted active social policy for improvement of position of city workers at factories. Whether you know, that till 1905 the police frequently acted on the side of workers in their conflicts against employers (during strikes)? It was Nicholas's internal policy.
Boris

 

[sirhon11234]

This is so interesting, in global history in my school we learned that Russia was in poverty and that Nicolas wasn't a good leader and thats what lead to the revolusion and his and his family's murder by the bolsheviks.

 

[AdmiralSteven]

An interesting article about Russia and the monarchy.

Mods, if this isn't the proper place for this, or if there is another thread that this should go in, please move for me. I didn't see any thread about this so I thought I'd start a new one on this.

This is an interesting article I found about Russia and a possible shift to a monarchy. This article could be an editorial, but I thought it was interesing enough to pass along. In the title of the article is says that "...some suggest it should shift back to monarchy. I'm not sure who the Some are, but it does go along with an article I posted a while back about the number of monarchial groups growing in Russia. Here's the link:Interfax-Religion. I think this is interesting. I've always thought that since the Soviet Union fell, there could, at some point, be a gradual shift back to a monarchy. Although I never though I'd live to see it, and I still may never see it. However, the possibility of seeing it has gotten a little better. Just wanted to share.

 

[branchg]

The Russian Government isn't interested in restoring the monarchy and the Russian people are lukewarm, at best.

It's not going to happen.

 

[Duke of Thora]

The problem with reinstating the Tsar in Russia, is the question of just who? The Grand Duchess Maria seems to be disqualified under the family rule regarding the inequal marriage of her parents.Because of Salic law the descendents of Xenia Alexandrovitch can be ruled out. Do we then go to Nicholas of Russia grandson of Alexander II's brother Nicolas as successor? Would Russia want an 85 year old tsar? According to the article in Point de Vue after the reinterrment of the Empress Dagmar, the family relations are so cold, that there is no chance of concensus in any case? Any ideas as to who?

 

[BorisRom]

<...>
...Any ideas as to who?

I wrote on May, 23 - and let me to repeat this once again now:

I think now it is very difficult to define a circleof the real pretenders. In 1613 dynasty of Ryurickovichs was replaced by Romanov's by dynasty at will of "Greatest Zemsky cathedral (Duma)" (elected by people; analogue of the constitutional assembly). In 1613 the Romanov's sort (stock) was not a favorite among applicants from the very beginning. It is impossible to exclude that in 2012-2014 a new dynasty will be chosen. Nevertheless, I think, that pretenders from Romanov's or\and Rurickovich's will have good chances.
Besides, now in Russia two-three personsname themselves as the son of tsarevitch Alexey who has been ostensibly rescued on July, 17, 1918.
The monk foreteller Avel (1757-1841) wrote, that the name of the new monarch will be the third name in a history of Russia. To this prophecy can correspond :
1. Nicholas III;
2. Michael III;
3. Alexey III, - cesarevitch Alexey was lost (whether was lost?) on July, 17, 1918 several minutes after violent death of Nicholas II.
If to consider Rurickovichs also, after prince Oleg and princess Olga:
4. Oleg III

Boris