King Otto (1815-1867) and Queen Amalia neé Oldenburg (1818-1875)

[Warren]

King Otto and Queen Amalia

Arms of King Otto

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[Lumutqueen]

Otto, Prince of Bavaria or Othon, King of Greece (1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832.

File:Otto of Greece.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amalia, Duchess of Oldenburg, Queen of Greece (born 21 December 1818 in Oldenburg, died 20 May 1875 in Bamberg) was the consort of King Otto of Greece (1815-1867). Born the daughter of Augustus, Grand Duke of Oldenburg and Princess Adelheid of Anhalt-Bernburg-Schaumburg-Hoym, she married King Otto on 22 December 1836, in Oldenburg. In Greece, the title "Duchess of Oldenburg" was never in use.

File:Joseph Karl Stieler - Duchess Marie Frederike Amalie of Oldenburg, Queen of Greece.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MAfan]

Otto and Amalia had no children; so I wonder: if Otto would not have left Greece in 1862, but he would have remained King of Greece until his death, who would have been his successor as King? Maybe his younger brother Luitpold and his descendants? If so, who would have been the successor to King Otto of Bavaria at his death in 1916?

 

[snowflower]

The Constitution had made clear that if he died childless, he would be succeded by his younger brothers or their offspring. In fact , when Luitpold's first son was born, they decided to name him as the direct heir of the Greek Throne, surpassing his father , but although they had informed king Ludwig about their intentions, the boy was baptised as a Roman Catholic and the Greeks, very furious, stop the procedures to make him the heir his uncle's throne.

 

[MAfan]

So, it is not known what would have happened after his death if Otto would have remained King and childless...
My question raised because the descendants of Luitpold, and of his son Ludwig, became the Claimants to the Bavarian Throne, and Ludwig himself King of Bavaria in 1913. So, if in 1867 Ludwig had became King of Greece, who would have become King of Bavaria at the death of King Otto?

 

[snowflower]

No it is not known who exactly would succeed him, although he Greeks always thought that if he died childless , one of his Bavarian kins would suceed him, if he was willing to become Greek Orthodox. But I doubt they would have chosen a man who would also be a king of Bavaria at the same time. They didn't after all seek indepedence to be ruled by a foreign king. So , if no Bavarian candidate was available, they would certainly offer the throne to another foreign minor royal after Otto's death.

 

[MAfan]

This is the problem: at the time of Otto's death, his nephews - the children of Prince Luitpold - were not going to become Kings of Bavaria.
In 1867 the King was the 22-years-old Ludwig II, who had a younger brother; Ludwig II was also going to marry Duchess Charlotte in Bavaria, and nothing foretelled that both he and his brother were going to die crazy and childless, and therefore that their cousin Ludwig would have become King.
So, had Otto reigned in Greece until his death, and had he succeded by his nephew Ludwig, at the death of his cousin King Otto of Bavaria he - the King of Greece - would have become the successor to the Bavarian Throne.

 

[snowflower]

If that ever happened and Ludwig was the succesor to the Bavarian Throne while King of Greece, then he would quite certainly renounce his rights in favour of his brother Leopold. It seems the most logical decision to me. Besides, I am not cure if Otto retained his rights to the Bavarian throne after he became king of Greece and I believe that if he was succeded by his nephew Ludwig, Ludwig might renounced his succesion rights to Bavaria.

 

[snowflower]

Here are two paintings that show Otto and Amalia and Amalia alone
The dress Amalia is wearing is the " Amalia dress" which she designed herself. When she first came in Greece she decided that her dresses should be looking as much as possible like those of her subjects and she created this dress, which is influenced by the Greek folklore dresses. It followed to Biedermeier style. It consists of a embroidered shirt, a kaftan and an emboridered tight jacket and on the head a fez for married and a kaplaki for unmarried women.On top of the fez, she used to wear a lace veil for churh. She made a mix to create this dress ( the jacket was inspired by the jacket women used to wear in the islands , while the kaftani was worn inthe mainland because is too heavy for the climate in the Aegean, and the fez was worn by men), and there are certain accessories worn in the folklore dresses that are missing( apron, belt and head scarf and traditional jewellery which are quite heavy). Because this dress also has some European traits (such as the filly skirt and the thight, corseted upper and the expensive fabric), it became very fashionable to townwomen all over the Balkans. I must say here that Greek women in the court prefered wearing it with a fez , because most of them had dark hair and the red fez looked better on it and it used to also show how much the Queen favoured the one wearing it. The longer the tassel was and the more richly ornated ( they used to hang pearls and golden tissu on it), the dearest was the woman in the court.

 

[snowflower]

by the way, I've found the succesion law as it is written in the Hellenic Constitution of 1844

Concerning the succesion:
Article 37 . The Greek Crown and its constitutional rights are succesive and will be inherited by the true and legal descendants of King Otto, in order of primogeniture.
Article 38. In case there are no true and legal descendants of King Otto, the Crown wil be iherited by his following brother and his true and legal descendants, in order of primogeniture.
in case he also dies without any true and legal descendants, the Greek Crown and its constitutional rights will pass to his next brother and his true and legal descendants. in order of primogeniture.
Article 39. In case there is no heir fulfulling the above mentioned criteria, The King appoints one, in the presence of the Parliament and of the Senate, and with the vote of approval from the 2/3 of these bodies.
Article 40. Each heir to the Greek Throne must be a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church of Jesus Christ.
Acticle 41. Never are the Crowns of Bavaria and Greece to be merged in one head.

So , it was impossible for the KIng of Greece to become King of Bavaria, even if he was the next in line.

By the way, notice that there is no male primogeniture decided in the constitution. Well either that means that the Greeks of the time viewed womens as equalsto mens( by far too unlikely), or they just didn't notice that they hadn't clarified the succesion law.( it wouldn't suprise me , they made the same mistake in the next Constitution).

 

[principessa]

Here is a coin with a picture of King Otto of the Hellenes:

http://www.faz.net/m/{54295C86-78FA-4B33-AD4F-F77A6B23FAA2}Picture.jpg

 

[snowflower]

I am currently reading a vey intersting book about life at Otto's court and it contains many informations about Otto and Amalia. They are described as two very different personalities. Otto was indesicive , slow in his actions and he had many times to be pressuerd by Amalia to take political actions. The real disaster was when he had to sign state papers. He would read at first the order and then, furious with all the spelling mistakes, would sit down and start correcting them ( This seems logical , since he was better on Greek Grammar than most, if not all, of his Greek officers). So, after repeating this for three of four times, no time would be left to sing the rest of the documents and he would postpone it for the next day.
Amalia on the other hand was extremely vivacious. She loved riding and dancing although the doctors siad that she should give up horse riding if she wanted to conceive. The person closer to her was her governess, who came with her in Greece and died here, although she had a lot of ladies in waiting , Greek and German. She would speak in French to them when they were all assembled ( since the Germans didn't know adequate Greek and the Greeks didn't know adequate German) but this would prove to be very difficult, because the French that her Greek ladies in waiting could speak were awful. Only one refuse to speak on another language and would speak only Greek. It was Katherine " Rosa" Botsaris. The German ladies in waitings used to look down on her because she was very poor, and she would loook down to them, because she was the proud daughter of Markos Botsaris, who was a hero of the Independence War , and her lastname counted more that all the money thay had. Not ot mention that she didn't appreciate them must because she thought them useless and weak with all these corsets and the silly filly petticoats they used to wear( she was raised in a very simple way like most Greek country girls at the time and she was so skilled with weapons she could fight like a man). Greeks and Germans ladies always fought to gain the Queen 's favour and they used to spread rumours about one another. Amalia, on the other hand would be delighted on every little gossip, even if it came from a servantor a maid. It must have been fun living in her suite I suppose.....

 

[Jaya]

Alluding to post no 9
The painting on the left with Amalia standing full portrait length is by Nikiphoros Lytras of the island Tinos. www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikiphoros_Lytras
The "Amalia" Costume was also used as formal "Hellenic" bridal attire in the upper classes and for anyone who could afford it until I was a child.It was later on that white and what were considered Occidental white gowns with long veils etc. of the Victorian era were adapted into Greece.

There was a rumour that King Otto was infertile and that Amalia's horesback riding had nothing to do with conception but was a manner of deflecting off the King so they would not destabilize the monarchy. Do not know how much is truth or fiction but many have said that Amalia died untouched. Either way they did not produce an heir.

 

[MAfan]

I'm not sure that horse riding prevents a woman from having children; if not, how could Empress Elisabeth of Austria had four children, considering that she used to spend a lot of time riding?

 

[snowflower]

There have been rumours from Amalia being virgin till her death to Otto being homosexual. But the truth is that Amalia suffered from a condition ( the name I don't remember it now), and had a form of internal dysplasia, which made it very difficult to have physical relationship with Otto and impossible to conceive. Her Greek doctors were aware of it and she had a sort of treatment with internal washing that involved sponges ( that sounds cruell if you ask me). So , if she could have internal treatment she couldn't have been a virgin, could she? The court was anxious because of the lack of a heir but Amalia had made peace with herself, deciding that it was Otto's fault, since ( in her opinion) God has placed a curse among Ludwig's children as a result of his unholy lifestyle .....Of course when Ludwig ( Luitpold's son ) was born, she didn't know what so say, but she kept on believing AND declaring that it was still Otto's fault since he was doubly cursed: as a Wittelsbach and as Ludwig's son.....( not a nice thing to say about your husband at all)
As for the horseriding, since no one knew exactly what was going on ( her exact condition was identified 50 years later thaks to her medical records) they just decided to put the blame to her poor horses I guess (after all they couldn't answer back).

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wow, how did you come by this information? Amazing stuff.

 

[snowflower]

I am reading a great book these days. It's titled " A Danish woman in Otto's court" and it is a wonderful work. The book is a part of Christiane Luth's personal diaries, notes and letters to her family. Christiane was a Danish from Holstein who got married in 1839 to a German priest named Luth. Right after their marriage, Luth was offered a job: he was asked by the Grand Duke of Oldenburg if he would like to go to Greece and be Amalia's personal priest and confessor. He accepted and they both settled to Greece for some years (about 10 I think). All these years, Christiane was keeping notes in her diary about the Greek political and social life ( as it appeared to her eyes), incidents from the court and the Bavarian/German/ Western European community and family news. It is great and quite funny and it is also useful to other reasons apart royalty , since it is an insight at the then Athenian society and shows how difficult was life for a Danish woman in Greece ( I particularly liked the part when she saved money to buy shoes because she was invited to a ball at the palace and in Athenian shops she could only find " tsarouchia" because the other types of shoes should be ordered in advance to import them from Western Europe)

The funny thing is she later returned to Greece ( the family moved to Copenhagen after they left Greece) because since her son was fluent in Greece(he was born and raised here) he served for a time as George's secretary. I guess she was one of those lucky ones who managed to she History written in front of their eyes....

 

[jonnydep]

I'm not sure that horse riding prevents a woman from having children; if not, how could Empress Elisabeth of Austria had four children, considering that she used to spend a lot of time riding?

thats quite true MAfan, but i do understand that her mother in law Archduchess Sophie often rebuked The Empress about going riding whilst with child. this is understandable, for if she had fallen, this may bring about a miscarriage !

 

[Jaya]

...Amalia suffered from a condition ( the name I don't remember it now), and had a form of internal dysplasia, which made it very difficult to have physical relationship with Otto and impossible to conceive.

What you are describing is a type of cancer-dyspalasia and so is hyperplasia.I think it would have been quite unhygienic to insert sponges into the uterine cavity ... Ye gods- I have also heard stories more credible stories that Otto was impotent.But hardly anyone has the facts.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

... Ye gods- I have also heard stories more credible stories that Otto was impotent.But hardly anyone has the facts.

From all the above accounts, it seems that Amalia, apart from any possible anatomic problems, was suffering from what is called anaphrodisia or in lay terms, frigidity.
Insofar as Otto was concerned, all the Greek literature abounds in vague comments about his impotence. However, this word has two meanings, the layman's, that is, a man's inability to achieve and sustain penile tumescence and the medical, that is, inability to produce adequare count of healthy spermatozoa capable of fertilizing a woman's egg. Which of the two meanings these authors were implying is not clear.
At any rate, the way I perceive it from all these comments is that neither Amalia nor Otto were interested in intercourse and possibly the marriage remained uncosummated. As it is known, unconsummated marriage is a solid reason for annulment particularly in the Catholic Church. So the fact that Otto never sought that suggests that he had no sexual interest.

 

[snowflower]

It is documented that Amalia had a serious anatomical problem. She had vaginal atresia and was most pobably suffering from Rokitansky-Mayer-Küster-Hauser(RMKH) syndrome. But RMKH was not known during most of her life , so it was difficult to diagnose her properly. Amalia herself confessed to her doctors and her sister Frederika (who came with her in Greece when Amalia became Queen) that she avoided sleeping with Otto because during these times she would suffer intorelable pain , as if she was a virgin. But on ther other hand , she was not really interested in trying new treatments. Not to mention that Otto wasn't really trying to push her into trying new treatments. Whenever her doctors came to him to ask him to pressure her, he would say " Whatever Her Majesty decides. After all, these matters are firstly in God's hands whatever you claim gentlemen",and he would be a pathetic receiver on news about the doctors' treatment. So , apart from this obvious medical issue , there were probably more issues to be solved in her relationship. Their relationship was consumated , but I doubt they had regular physical relationship. And the Greeks who worked in the palace, often heard Bavarians speaking in low voices about " the Queen's virginal pain" and " the King's indifference on the matter". Rumours can start on less basis than that....

 

[Jaya]

From all the above accounts, it seems that Amalia, apart from any possible anatomic problems, was suffering from what is called anaphrodisia or in lay terms, frigidity.
Insofar as Otto was concerned, all the Greek literature abounds in vague comments about his impotence. However, this word has two meanings, the layman's, that is, a man's inability to achieve and sustain penile tumescence and the medical, that is, inability to produce adequare count of healthy spermatozoa capable of fertilizing a woman's egg. Which of the two meanings these authors were implying is not clear.
At any rate, the way I perceive it from all these comments is that neither Amalia nor Otto were interested in intercourse and possibly the marriage remained uncosummated. As it is known, unconsummated marriage is a solid reason for annulment particularly in the Catholic Church. So the fact that Otto never sought that suggests that he had no sexual interest.

This sounds like the most credible account of what was These two were just not interested........ thanking you Vlaha!!!!

 

[snowflower]

Well not only they were not terribly interested in the first but also the medical problems they might have faced, they were not meant to be very lucky in producing a heir and providing stability to their throne. I personally doubt that the marriage was uncossumated , given that bunch of doctors paraded through Amalia's life after a few years of her marriage , but the whole nature of their sexual life seems so obscure.... Anyway I have another large question about this couple and its about religion. Otto was a Roman Catholic and an extremely devout . Amalia was a Lutheran and she was quite serious about her religion too - their personal households were also religiousely divided ( apart from the Greeks memebers of course who were Orthodox in both cases) and they kept their personal priests and confessor. Who they managed to get married in the first place and keeping their faiths? Did they get some dispensation from Rome under the condition of raising their children as Roman Catholic? And to complicate things the Constitution of 1844 was very clear that their heirs would have to be Orthodox in order to succeed Otto in the throne. Whou would they managed to raise Orthodox children?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

In the Russian Court, the heir's wife had to be Orthodox, thereby ensuring that future heirs to the throne would be borne of an Orthodox mother. In this situation, could Amelie's Orthodox faith overcome any impediment to Otto being Roman Catholic? By this I mean, was it her faith which would ensure that the children would be raised in the Orthodox Church?

 

[snowflower]

VM , Amalia was not Orthodox , she was a Lutheran and she remain Lutheran her whole life. That's why I am confused by the whole situtation. Otto was a Devout Roman Catholic, his wife was a Lutheran who must have also been quite devout in order not to convert after her marriage . I suppose that the Catholic Church allowed the marriage but placed some restrictions about the faith of their offspring. And finally the first Greek Constitution which occured after their marriage ( and therefore long after any kind of agreement about the faith of their children), demanded that Otto's heir had to be Orthodox in order to succeed him. In fact it didn't matter what was the religion of the parents - in theory all a possible child needed to get Orthodox would be an Orthodox baptism, and Orthodox godparent to teach him the faith and the consent of the parents to the baptism. But I somehow doubt that Amalia and Otto would have liked to give that consent

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Thank you for correcting my mistake -- from the earlier thread, I had assumed that Amelia was Orthodox. This certainly is very strange but it is apparent that the Greeks, by drafting a constitution, wanted their future heirs to be Orthodox.

 

[snowflower]

This certainly is very strange but it is apparent that the Greeks, by drafting a constitution, wanted their future heirs to be Orthodox.

The truth is that they had some pretty good reasons to wish it. The first problems between Otto and the Orthodox clergy started very early , the year 1833. That year Mauer issued a Royal Decree stating that the Orthodox Church of Greece was from taht moment an autocephalous church. This happened without a previous agreement between the Patriachate of Constantinople and the Bavarian Regency which irritated the Patriach very much because he , as the spiritual leader of all Orthodoxs, had to give his consent before the declaration, and as a result he refused to recognise the newly founded Greek Church(without declaring it schismatic of course)and canonical communion between the Greek Church and the Patriarchate stopped until 1850 when the Greek bishops followed the formall way and asked him to recognize the Church of Greece as an autonomous and autocephalous Church. But this Royal Decree also irritated many Greek priests and Bishops for two reasons: a) because they feared that the Regency wanted to make the Church a subject to the State and b) because the Roman Catholics deared to mess with internal religious matters instead of leaving them to deal with it. The truth is that the Church had to become autonomous for practical reasons and because it was clear that since Greece was now an independent state the Patriach could no longer be the administrative head of the Church of Greece, but very few Greeks, if any, liked the way the Bavarians handled it.
But apart from this incident which had political implications and so Otto had some right to intervene, The Greeks felt that Otto and before him the Regency tried to undermine Orthodoxy in the country. They "forgave" him and Amalia for not converting but they were never content with the amount of respect he showed for their religion which in their eyes was not sufficient. For example one Easter they had big argument I believe because during the Holy Friday , when the Epitaphios procession passed before the Palace , they stopped for the King and Queen to come and pay their respects. Otto felt that it was not proper for him to just get out in the street and asked for the Epitaph to come inside the Palace yard. The Priests on their part got very angry that the King felt the pavement wasn't good enough for him to show his respect to the Epitaphios and that he wanted them to move the procession were it suited him . And many other incidents like this occured over the years. And last , but not least, Otto showed great support to Catholic missionaires who came in Greece and opened schools for the children, supporting them with money and supplies they needed . This made the Greeks feared that their King not only didn't show enough respect for their Church but wanted to push them towards convrting to Catholicism. So, they were not willing to tolerate a second Catholic King and once they got their chance the made sure that the next Monarch would share the religion of his people.

 

[Kasumi]

Ottosaeule monument

The Ottosaeule monument, honouring Prince Otto or King Othon as he was known in Greece, is pictured October 16, 2011 in Ottobrunn, a small town established outside Munich in 1955 at the spot Otto departed for Greece.
During the nineteenth century 'Europe's Great Powers' of France, UK and Russia believed establishing a monarchy in newly-independent but penniless Greece, which they bank rolled and had helped liberate from Ottoman rule, would be the best form of government, but they wanted a second-tier royal family without much ambition and which wouldn't pose a threat.
Prince Otto second son of Bavarian King Ludwig I, arrived in Greece as a 17-year-old in 1832 with a team of Bavarian bureaucrats, only one of whom had ever been to Greece before, marking the start of a long period of Western meddling, spawning a resentment that continues to this day.

daylife gallery

 

[vetterteri]

Assistance with King Otto Genealogy during his youth

Hi - I need some help with understanding some of the history of Otto King of Greece. My ancestors ( two brothers) went to Munich University with Otto in his youth just prior to his reign. They actually traveled back to Greece with him as they were childhood friends of the family. One of my ancestor brothers became a court physician during Otto's reign and the other ancestor brother of mine was an artist whom was commissioned to decorate the Queen's chambers ( Otto's mother) He went on to marry a Countess whom was a companion friend to the Queen at the time. Can anyone assist me with further discussion on the youth of Otto and or to whom I would write for knowledge of artifacts from this time frame? I can provide any names that I have and timelines if this will help! Thank you in advance!

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Amalia's arrival in Greece caused much sensation. as well as curiosity among the Greeks. Amalia's fair hair and complexion were a novelty in Greece.