King Edward VII (1841-1910) and Queen Alexandra (1844-1925)

[Denville]

Oh good lord. Edward slept around because he wanted to. Most men would like to, and he had the opportunity to have loads of women. His wealth and social position and lack of a serious job meant that he had plenty of time and energy and money to spend on pursuit of pleasure.
I don't think it had antying to do with "anger against women"...or that his women were "masculine looking".
He and Alix were fond of each other, but they had married very young and had done so because they were both royal and had to get married.. As a newspaper said at the time there were only about 7 women at that juncture that Ed could marry, so he was lucky that he got one who was nice and charming and very lovely and who appealed to him.. They didn't have much in common esp as Alix got deaf and retired to her home life and over devoted herself to her children. But he loved her.. even if she bored him..
He was fooling around well before she got deaf.. -
I think that she was rather possessive, because that was her nature, she clung to the children.. and she was rather resentful at times of the fact that Edward wanted more amusmetn than she could give him and that he was so VERY unfaithful..
So they had rows and bad times like the best of couples do, and since she could not (and wouldn't want to.. as I don't think she was that sexy) have an affair herself, she hit back, by being rather tiresome (which only drove Edward to spend more time away) and then she would take off for Denmark, to spent more time with her own family (who also bored Edward).. I think that this was a bit of a punishment because it sometimes caused gossip in the papers and he might get a ticking off from his mother for upsetting his wife.
Their marriage was far from perfect, but it was problaby better than a lot of marriages...

 

[Denville]

No you do not need to take my word.

I . This does not include Alice's yearly trust fund nor George's income from his investments and various jobs. When Alice needed money she went to her brother. Alice's mother was also rich. I sure Alice could have walked the few yards to her mother's house.

The lease on 30 Portman's Square was £160 a year.

I'm sure that whatever money Alice had, the interest on £15k and extra from "George's jobs" would not keep her suitalbly in the society she lived in, where she was mixing with the POW/King..and with 2 daughters to keep and dower.
She went to see Ed on his deathbed, and Alix wasn't too happy with it. Why would she be jealous if Alice was only his friend?
It happened. She was no different to a lot of society women that she used her charms, both social and sexual to get things, for herself and her husband and family. It does not mean she was sleeping with every rich man she met, but she probably did sleep with some, and with others it was a flirty relationship or one where she did social favours like getting them into higher social circles..
Getting a job or investment advice for her husband was one of the things that many society wives did, and they used whatever charms and gifts nature had given them to do this...

 

[Queen Camilla]

69 years ago today Alice Keppel died.

 

[Queen Camilla]

His last mistress was Daisy. He was still seeing her even after she outed him as impotent.
She is listed in his diaries.

I have my great-great-grandfather's diaries of who was at Sandringham at the same time he was there including Daisy Warwick when she was Edward's mistress along with Alice. So did I using the primary evidence of the correspondence about my great-great-grandparents' wedding, the sleeping plans that my grandmother found amongst her mother's papers from when they hosted Edward and Alice (no Alix) and her mother's notes on those visits, the letters by great-grandfather received from his father when Edward died etc etc.

My evidence comes first hand from family who witnessed the relationship and knew what was happening.

They wanted Edward to stay for longer and he would only do so if Alice was there and as they couldn't justify an invitation for her then he was always going to leave early.

They didn't have anything to say about the guest list other than Edward wanting Alice to attend.

Maybe you can share especially the dates.

Several of Edward's staff and friends wrote books and kept journals that they publish during Edward's lifetime or shortly thereafter. I have read these so it would be interesting to see what other wrote about Edward that was contemporary.

She was advised to not have intimate relations with any man by her mid-20s unless she wanted to die.

Edward never accused her of infidelity. He knew she had a close friendship with a few men but never that she went to bed with any of them knowing that a pregnancy could endanger her life.

In 1871 while suffering from typhoid fever he accused her of infidelity. Some dismissed it as the 'fever talking'.

The diaries of many members of the aristocracy. The sleeping arrangements at many house parties. The stories from the staff in many homes from the day. Doesn't prove George was her father though - given Alice's proclivities (and there were many men.
Not gossip but known facts by those who moved in the right circles - such as my great-great-grandparents. She was known for way more than her quick wit.

This is distasteful and no proof of this. This is sheer gossip and lies about a woman they did not personally know. The people who actually knew Alice also wrote books and this is far from the description of the real Alice. It is repugnant to suggest that Alice had many men or that her daughter was not the child of her husband. This contradicts all the information about Alice that her friends and family knew.

George Keppel wanted a son. Alice actually minded what people thought of her. She was a conventional woman.

Alice's own words.
The Keppels - who have told the story for generations to their descendants.

Alice Keppel never spoke so what were her words and to whom? Which Keppel and their descendants? This sound more like the DM type of stories.

I have extensive knowledge of the Keppel family tree so names would be helpful, especially since Alice and George saw more of her family than his.

 

[Denville]

Yes in his fever he "accused her" of infidelity. Probably the fever talking.
I can't understand that anyone seiously would think that Alix, a very religious woman who had had 6 babies in about 6 years, had had rheumatic fever during one pregnancy and been very ill (and Bertie was then out whooping it up with other women)...who problaby was very relieved to finish with sex after all that, (I don't know of any definite evidence that she was told not to have more children because of health reasons),.would be unfaithful?

She is well known to have had a romantic friendship with Oliver Montagu, and Bertie was fine with that; it was not uncommon for women who didn't want a sex life/coudlnt' have affairs because of various reasons, to have a male companion who was a bit in love and kept them company esp if they had a neglectful husband.

I don't see why you would interpret Bertie's fever talk as "accusing Alix of adultery," which was IMO quite preposterous.. but refuse to accept that Bertie had plenty of affairs.
It is very likely that In his fever Bertie was re-running rows that he had had with Alix over HIS infidelties and in his muddle, transferring the guilt to her..He got upset when he saw her, when he was delerious, problaby because of his own guilty feelings about her..

I think that Alix problaby was glad to finish with a sex life when she had produced 6 children, lost her last son, John, at one day old and been very ill at times...
She may have been told that it was not advisable to have more, I don't know if that was true.. but if so, it seems to me that that would fit in with Bertie leaving her alone even more and taking to other women, to "official" affairs with upper class women.. and Alix being rather jealous and hurt, but consoling herself with her children and her romantic friendship...

 

[Denville]

I know nothing about this book, which is probably extremely unreliable.
George replied that peace reigned but "Alas Mrs K arrives tomorrow and stops here in a yacht. I am afraid that peace and quiet will not remain.'
May, his wife, sympathised and wrote back 'What a pity Mrs G K is again to the fore! How annoyed Mama (Queen Alexandra) will be!'

.'

I don't think that Alexandra was all that happy with the Keppel affair. Alice was seen as Bertie's "partner". people including politicans used her to gain access to him in his private life...
she went on hols with him and Alexandra felt that this was intruding on her status as his wife. Lillie L was one of his earlier official mistresses and ALexandra seems to have liked her better, perhaps because Lillie wasn't as intrusive or because being one of the first of his "lady mistresses" she wasn't as settled in the positon as a later one like Alice K became. Or perhaps she just liked Lillie better, she was apparently very charming.
But I have read this about George V writing to May and saying that "peace and quiet would not continue" when Alice K turned up and was staying near them. She problably felt particularly annoyed that she was on holiday with her husband, he was giving her some attention. and here was Alice coming along to intrude on her private time.. Even if she did not officially visit the Royal Yacht she was there nearby and I'm sure Alex thought of Bertie slipping off to see her..
And yes of course the letter is about Mrs George Keppel. Why on earth woud it be about the Kaiser? He was Willie or Wilhelm or "Cousin Willy" not the Kaiser...

 

[Denville]

Lily Langtry didn't have her child with her husband. She too was a lover of Edward's but the child was possible Prince Louis of Battenburg's making her the half-aunt of Philip's. Lord Louis certainly believed she was his half-sister.


The affair started in 1898 or 1899 and Sonia was born in 1900 so definitely possible.

As I recall Lily didn't have any children for some years and when she got Pregnant by Louis of Battenberg she concealed the pregnancy, because she was known to be separated from her husband.
So she didn't have a husband to be an official father to her child as was "the rule".
Possibly she wasn't interested in children and took precautions and since Edward Langtry was a failure and not around as a husband, she and he weren't considered as a couple and she did not feel any obligation to produce children fror him.
Or possibly she wasn't very fertile and hadn't considered that she could have children and the was surprised to find herself pregnant.
Alice however was as far as I know on good terms with her husband and I'd say it is likely that she had her 2 children and then stopped.. and problably her physical relationship with George stopped because she was involved with Bertie and possibly other men.
Its possible that Sonia Keppel was Bertie's child but I'd say more likely that she was her legal father's..

Alice Keppel was one of the nicest people. She was kind hearted and sweet.

A
There are photographs of Alice at Sandringham with the BRF including Alexandra. One is from 1899, when Alice was pregnant with Sonia.

She may have been a very nice person, that does not mean she didn't take lovers....

 

[LadyAlice]

I've seemed to have read a story on here or somewhere else about Edward and his brother getting into a spat about one of them shooting the others birds on an estate. Does anybody else know this story?

 

[Curryong]

No, never read that. That's not to say it didn't happen. Edward's relationships with his siblings in later life often weren't very close, though naturally they loved each other. When young he was very close to Vicky, Alice and Affie, but seems to have regarded Alfred as a bit of a bore in later years, (as did others) and of course Alice died prematurely.

Like many others with much younger siblings he was married and out of the parental home by the time the youngest were growing up. When he was King Louise was often invited to Sandringham when Helena (Lenchen) and Beatrice werent, allegedly because he enjoyed her acerbic wit. He supposedly hardly ever saw Beatrice in later life.

 

[LadyAlice]

It's a a shame I can't figure out where I read it.

Another of my favourite stories is when Bertie helped a fire in the nursery and began to help out when he could on other fires in the area. Apparently it wasn't uncommon for him to leave the table during dinner. Victoria was not impressed

 

[Queen Claude]

I also read that they Bertie and Affie grew apart as they got older. What I find interesting is that Bertie's heir George, while he was close to his father, seemed to have a lot more in common with his Uncle Affie - it was through Affie that George started stamp collecting. Although, while I find it interesting, it is not hard to see why George ended up so much like Affie considering that both George and Affie were second sons and were set on similar paths, they also served in the same naval ports but I am trying to recall if George served under his uncle.

I assume that the distance between Bertie and Helena came about because Helena married a man who was on a different side than Bertie's wife, Alexandra and her family regarding the Schleswig- Holstein question.

Beatrice was much younger than Bertie so that can explain why they were not close but also there were differences between them like over the disposition of Osborne House. Plus it seems to me that Bertie tended to have tensions with people who were close to Victoria.

 

[Curryong]

It's a a shame I can't figure out where I read it.

Another of my favourite stories is when Bertie helped a fire in the nursery and began to help out when he could on other fires in the area. Apparently it wasn't uncommon for him to leave the table during dinner. Victoria was not impressed

Yes, Bertie was a great friend of Captain Shaw, the Chief of the London Fire Brigade. Shaw was a very well known figure in London Society. I think he's referred to in a song in one of the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas. He was involved in a scandalous divorce case at one stage.

Bertie probably liked the excitement and drama of huge fires. He supposedly rode on one of the horse-drawn Fire engines with Shaw and his men sometimes, wearing one of the brass helmets of the day!

 

[eya]

Alice Keppel medals: War-time nurse and mistress of King Edward VII | UK | News | Daily Express

Holiday photos of the Russian and British royal families | Daily Mail Online

PICTURED: Last image of Russian royal family visiting King Edward VII in 1909 FOUND | Royal | News | Express.co.uk

The last pictures of Russian Royal Family visiting King Edward VII in 1909 found

Scandal that put the Monarchy at risk: Edward VII betrayed his war hero friend who had been smeared as a card cheat 'because he'd caught him in bed with HIS mistress'

Why did Edward VII betray war hero friend? | Daily Mail Online

 

[Curryong]

I don't know how rare they are, as I have seen these photos before. The Prince of Wales (George) and the Tsar loved dressing similarly and walking about trying to fool people into mistaking them for each other. Of course they were first cousins but I don't really think they resembled each other facially that much. The beards and hair colouring probably helped.

 

[JessRulz]

My favourite anecdote about George and Nicholas was how they were mistaken for the other at their respective weddings, and received congratulations when it wasn't their wedding! They weren't exact copies of each other, but their face shapes were similar and the facial hair definitely closed in the similarities.

 

[Furienna]

Ouch... Yeah, it sounds very weird today that something as seemingly trivial as an evening of playing cards (even if the game was illegal at the time) would get such an attention. But when you study the details, you get a clearer of view of why it was a big deal back then.

 

[Osipi]

Another episode in the saga of "royals behaving badly" that I'd not heard of before. I had read that Edward VII was hardly "mama's angel" and there were quite a few disreputable fine messes that he got into and this just adds to it.

I guess no matter who you are or where you come from, position and prestige doesn't excuse bad behavior by a long shot.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Defamation/libel are still big issues today. What lead to the accusation of cheating will always be a bit unclear given the way the events unfolded but it wasn't so much the gambling or playing cards that was the issue but the accusations of cheating that lead to the court case and brought it into the public domain.

 

[Furienna]

I guess no matter who you are or where you come from, position and prestige doesn't excuse bad behavior by a long shot.

Yes, but Bertie had to learn that the hard way. Even if most people today haven't Heard about this particular scandal, his reputation was almost ruined by it at the time.

 

[Denville]

His reputation wasn't ruined. It didn't do him any good, certainly.. he got involved in a lot of silly behaviour that led to scandals, but his positon DID save him from "ruination". I think a lot of people felt that he did get into stupid situatons because he hadn't enough to do, and the queen kept him out of serious business.

 

[Mbruno]

Oh good lord. Edward slept around because he wanted to. Most men would like to, and he had the opportunity to have loads of women. His wealth and social position and lack of a serious job meant that he had plenty of time and energy and money to spend on pursuit of pleasure.
I don't think it had antying to do with "anger against women"...or that his women were "masculine looking".
He and Alix were fond of each other, but they had married very young and had done so because they were both royal and had to get married.. As a newspaper said at the time there were only about 7 women at that juncture that Ed could marry, so he was lucky that he got one who was nice and charming and very lovely and who appealed to him.. They didn't have much in common esp as Alix got deaf and retired to her home life and over devoted herself to her children. But he loved her.. even if she bored him..
He was fooling around well before she got deaf.. -
I think that she was rather possessive, because that was her nature, she clung to the children.. and she was rather resentful at times of the fact that Edward wanted more amusmetn than she could give him and that he was so VERY unfaithful..
So they had rows and bad times like the best of couples do, and since she could not (and wouldn't want to.. as I don't think she was that sexy) have an affair herself, she hit back, by being rather tiresome (which only drove Edward to spend more time away) and then she would take off for Denmark, to spent more time with her own family (who also bored Edward).. I think that this was a bit of a punishment because it sometimes caused gossip in the papers and he might get a ticking off from his mother for upsetting his wife.
Their marriage was far from perfect, but it was problaby better than a lot of marriages...

Edward's and Alexandra's marriage seems pretty typical of other arranged royal marriages at the time. Nothing really odd in context.

I am far more interested in Edward VII's (controversial) role in foreign policy than in his private sex life. His francophilia and anti-German sentiments (shared BTW by Alexandra for obvious reasons) , in a time when monarchs still had far more influence on government policy, were a relevant factor in the run-up to WWI, which is quite ironic really considering that both Edward and Alexandra were of German ancestry.

Compared to Edward VII, George V , who reigned during the war, distanced himself from politics and was far more subservient to his ministers.

 

[Denville]

It was a different time, by the time George V came to the throne. THe last little bit of "royal influence" had gone.. and in any case George dlsiked foreigers and wasn't someone who enjoyed travelling and mixing with people from differnet places, as his father did. So he wasn't likely to have opinions in the field of foreign affairs. (hmm! rather Freudian there).
And I agree, Edwards marriage and his sex life were similar to most royal men or upper class men at the time.. He married Alix because it was his duty to marry and he was fond of her.. but he didn't feel obliged to be faithful.

 

[Curryong]

Edward VII's Francophilia, if not his anti-Germanic feelings, began very early however and were personal. As a young boy he had fallen for the Empress Eugenie and Napoleaon III who were very nice to him when he and his sister Vicky had accompanied their parents on a State visit to France. He hadn't wanted to leave, and that was the beginning of his life-long love affair with Paris and with the French.

Conversely, Edward very much disliked his nephew, the bumptious and vainglorious Kaiser Wilhelm, mostly for the way that individual had treated his mother, Edward's sister, as well as the fact that Willie lost no opportunity to emphasise that he had become an Emperor at the time his uncle was still only Prince of Wales.

He was not alone in his dislike of Wilhelm. Many of his relatives couldn't stand him, including Alix. There was also mistrust of the Germans wanting their 'place in the sun' that Wilhelm was forever trumpeting. So, in Edward's case, personal bias was intertwined with his views on other countries.

 

[Kronprinz]

How did Queen Alexandra and the Princess of Wales get along? A lot of fighting over jewels and sharing the spotlight?

 

[padams2359]

I'm sure QM saw her for the overbearing mother that she was.

 

[Curryong]

Queen Alexandra could never quite let any of her adult children go. She and her household from the big house at Sandringham visited York Cottage in the grounds quite a lot during George and Mary's honeymoon. She said to Mary (in a kindly way I'm sure) 'Of course you must call me Motherdear, and come to me for everything', but 'of course' Mary didn't! George once answered a letter of his wife's talking about his mother and father with 'Mother is the most selfish person I know'. Which, considering how he adored her was quite a statement!

Mary's relationship with at least one of George's sisters, the bitchy and anti-intellectual Victoria, who would make fun of her cultural interests, was also quite strained. However, Mary did make allowances for her mother in law's deafness and loneliness, praised her good qualities, and there was never any open split or quarrel between the two of them.

Mary knew Alexandra and Edward spoiled their grandchildren to death and were overindulgent, especially Alexandra, but she and George still left them with them at Sandringham for quite a long time when they went on tour abroad.

 

[Denville]

How did Queen Alexandra and the Princess of Wales get along? A lot of fighting over jewels and sharing the spotlight?

Not at all, as far as I know. fighting over jewels and sharing the spotilight?? Its not Dallas.

 

[Denville]

Queen Alexandra could never quite let any of her adult children go. She and her household from the big house at Sandringham visited York Cottage in the grounds quite a lot during George and Mary's honeymoon. She said to Mary (in a kindly way I'm sure) 'Of course you must call me Motherdear, and come to me for everything', but 'of course' Mary didn't! George once answered a letter of his wife's talking about his mother and father with 'Mother is the most selfish person I know'. Which, considering how he adored her was quite a statement!

abroad.

Alix was a possessive person, esp as a mother. however, she was essentially a likable woman.. even if selfish in a childish way. And I think her children loved her, even when she was exasperating. Victoria had the most reason to be cross with her because she kept her a companion and would not let her marry. However at the time the idea of a "spinster daughter looking after Mother" was pretty common and was nto regarded as quite as selfish as it mihgt seem nowadays.
I agree that Q Mary did not always get on perfectly with her in laws, who does, but that she got on with them quite well and there were no "big rows" or cat fighting. She was royal and knew the etiquette and knew how to treat her mother in law, the Queen with suitable respect.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Queen Alexandra attended the West Norfolk Hunt Dog Show and presented prizes in 1922.

 

[Kronprinz]

Is it true that Queen Alexandra demanded to have precedence over Queen Mary at Edward VII's funeral?

She also appeared to be sort of slow in moving out of Buckingham Palace, leaving only in early 1911.