It was not uncommon for upper class ladies to use their sexual and social charms to help either themselves or their husbands. Yes I am sure Alice did receive gifts from male admirers and from the King and as she was his recognised mistress he problaby helped her out financially if needed. But she wasn't "having sex with other men for money". She might have gone to bed with some of them, or might not, just flirted or amused them with her company.I don't think it's all baloney. It was known that the Keppels were hard up, and when the King died Alice cried out "Oh, whatever shall I do!" I don't think that was entirely because she was going to miss Bertie, though she undoubtedly did. She probably received discreet little 'gifts' from kind friends for years, though exactly how this maid knew all about it is problematical. Gossip among the servants perhaps.
It was said that Jack, Winston Churchill's younger brother, was fathered by another man, though it's true that Lord Randolph had a nasty bout of syphilis that ultimately killed him, so maybe Lord R. looked the other way where Jenny was concerned. As Alice's husband may have done, though I do think he was probably Sonia's father.
what baloney
As you stated "generally" a woman waited until she had children by her husband to have affairs, that does not mean that all women did. There was another incident involving Edward VII having an affair with a married woman and when she had a child who was ill, she admitted to having affairs with numerous other men including the then Prince of Wales.I think it is very unlikely that Alice's children were conceived by other lovers. She only had 2 as far a I know, and generally a woman waited till she had had a few children, and sons, before having affairs that might result in more children.
Yes Harreit Mordaunt...she seems to have been a bit unstable. And Edward Denied having an affair with her..He had been indiscreet, and had flirted but problaby had not actually had an affair. She may have had other lovers, or she may have been just talking wildly. Alice Keppel seems to have been a sensible woman, and conventional, and I doubt if she would break the unwritten rules...As you stated "generally" a woman waited until she had children by her husband to have affairs, that does not mean that all women did.
I think it is very unlikely that Alice's children were conceived by other lovers. She only had 2 as far a I know, and generally a woman waited till she had had a few children, and sons, before having affairs that might result in more children.
Why so?
There is no disagreement that they were lovers, so quite possible, if not actual.
So, logistics wise could it be possible? When did the affair start and when was Sonia born?
Yes Harreit Mordaunt...she seems to have been a bit unstable. And Edward Denied having an affair with her..He had been indiscreet, and had flirted but problaby had not actually had an affair. She may have had other lovers, or she may have been just talking wildly. Alice Keppel seems to have been a sensible woman, and conventional, and I doubt if she would break the unwritten rules...
The Keppels did not live in Portman Square from 1890s to 1920.But some of the most revealing new evidence has come from interviews I conducted in the early Eighties, and am publishing for the first time, with a former housemaid, Agnes Cook.
She and her mother were servants at Mrs Keppel’s London house in Portman Square from the 1890s to the 1920s, and the detailed memories of this remarkable woman — who was in her late 80s when I interviewed her.
As I understand it the servant making all this claim said that Alice was "Having sex with other men for money"... which IMO is not proven.You said though, Denville, that in general, women waited until a couple or more sons were born before they had affairs. Winston was the older of two sons; there were no other siblings before Jack. I'm not saying that another man fathered Winston, just his brother Jack.
Also Alice became the POW's acknowledged mistress in 1898. Sonia Keppel (Alice's second child) was born in 1900. I don't think Bertie was the father, but it's within the bounds of possibility.
And if Alice's male confidants/lovers were writing her discreet little cheques because George Keppel couldn't keep up the family's standard of living, then that is 'taking money from other men', however you slice it, IMO.
Im sure the story of "Curstsy and jump into bed" is about as likely as Camillas allegedly saying to Charles," My grandma and your great grandpa were lovers, how about it."I . Maybe Alice was a sensible woman because she needed money and knew that she had to be discreet in order to keep in good standing with the men she wanted to support her. Conventional? I think that is debatable. I don't think that all royal and aristocratic Edwardians were engaged in relationships outside their marriage as a matter of course, so I don't know if I would call her conventional.
George was with his parents King Edward and Queen Alexandra at Cowes Week in 1902. Queen Mary, who was a bad sailor, was not present, but wrote to her husband enquiring about the atmosphere on board the royal yacht.
George replied that peace reigned but "Alas Mrs K arrives tomorrow and stops here in a yacht. I am afraid that peace and quiet will not remain.'
May, his wife, sympathised and wrote back 'What a pity Mrs G K is again to the fore! How annoyed Mama (Queen Alexandra) will be!'
'
Alice Keppel was one of the nicest people. She was kind hearted and sweet.
Alice Keppel was not Edward's mistress. She was not the mistress of any man.
Alice Keppel would never have been allowed to step foot into Sandringham if she had been Edward's mistress or anyone's mistress.
It was Alexandra who invited Alice to Sandringham to celebrate Alexandra's birthday and everyone who is not out to trash Alice agrees that Alice Keppel would never been allow into Sandringham had she been Edward's mistress.
Edward would not have introduced his mistress to his family, much less invited her to the family home.
There are photographs of Alice at Sandringham with the BRF including Alexandra. One is from 1899, when Alice was pregnant with Sonia.
She most certainly was Edward's mistress. His last mistress and along with Lily Langtry the best known.
Edward did not have as many as people claim. This is just lies and gossip.Alexandra befriended a number of Edward's mistresses.
There is no evidence that Alexandra invited any of Edward's mistresses to Sandringham.When it came to who to invite to Sandringham she always invited Edward's current mistress as otherwise there was a good chance that Edward himself wouldn't have been there.
That is not what Edward believed. He accused her of infidelityOf course Alexandra never took a lover as she understood the treason laws but with the exception of Daisy Warwick she was friendly with most of them. She never liked Daisy but still hosted her in her home at times.
She was invited by the Queen Alexandra to celebrate Alexandra's birthday.This is one of the reasons why there are questions about Sonia's paternity - that she was at Sandringham while pregnant with her daughter.
All gossip.There is a lot of documentation from a range of other families who note the rooming that was needed to host Edward with Alice nearby because they were lovers.
Edward was easily bored and Alice was known for her quick wit.I know when Edward and Alexandra went to by great-grandfather's wedding (along with George and May) one of the questions that was asked was what excuse there was to invite the Keppel's who didn't know either my great-grandmother or great-grandfather. They couldn't come up with one and Edward left the day after the wedding while Alexandra stayed for the next three days until after the couple left on their wedding tour. They married in 1899.
What evidence?Saying that Alice was no one's mistress is simply refusing the overwhelming evidence - including her own words and her own family's history of that time in her life.
Is this source reliable? Are they adding to it to sell a story?
I have read multiple versions of this quote.
Some state the letter only states "K". Others have placed the date of the letter as 1895.
Alice Keppel was not at Cowes in 1902.
Could the "K' refer to Kaiser Wilhelm who regularly went to Cowes and was disliked by both Edward & Alexandra?
Cowes is where people in yachts watched other yachts race.
Kaiser would compete against Edward with Edward always coming out on the losing end.
No you do not need to take my word.I know what Cowes Week is, and Queen Mary would scarcely refer to the Kaiser as 'Mrs G K'.
That particular exchange of correspondence between the Yorks I have read many times. However, last night I took it from Raymond Lamont Brown's 'Alice Keppel and Agnes Keyser: Edward VII's Last Loves.' It is packed with detail about Alice's life and fully footnoted.
The letters from which I quoted are in the Royal Archives CC/7/32; CC/3/29; CC/7/68.
Are we to take your assertion that 'Alice wasn't at Cowes in 1902' at face value without any back-up, correspondence etc?
Alice may have come from a wealthy family but not, relatively speaking, her particular branch, and she became wealthy through the advice of the King's great friend Sir Ernest Cassel and the generosity of the King and others. The Keppels had a very restricted income at the beginning of their married life. Alice was given as a dowry of £15,000 in shares and George Keppel (who never had any money all his life) had £5,000, and that was it.
With regard to the Royal correspondence from Cowes, surely it's cherry picking to state what you obviously believe, Queen Camilla, that the Duchess of York refers to 'K' not 'Mrs GK'. I've read many books and never heard that Mary wrote 'K'. It always refers to Mrs Keppel whenever I've read it in various biographies, memoirs etc. Can you point me to any biographies etc where it is 'K' only?
And, if it was the Kaiser being referred to, why would Mary have to be discreet in a letter to her husband? Why would she refer to the Kaiser only by the initial K? He was a relative. The obvious way to refer to him in family letters would surely be 'Willie' or 'William' or 'Wilhelm', or even 'W', not by the initial of his title as German monarch.
In 1902, George & Mary were the Prince and Princess of Wales.KAISER TO VISIT KING EDWARD. KAISER TO VISIT KING EDWARD. LONDON, July 22.-A dispatch received hare from Cowes says it has been arranged that Emperor William shall visit King Edward before the latter returns to London.
Alice was regarded by everyone in Society, including courtiers, as being King Edward's mistress/confidante, she was referred to as La Favorita by dozens of people and all books on Edward VII in which she appears refer to her as being so.
Courtiers including Lord Esher, Edward's great friend, knew this woman, took her to be King Edward's lover, and surely their opinion and knowledge is worth more than what people, including us, think in the 21st century, more than a hundred years later.
Does any of it really matter? It's all so long ago! Bertie and Alix clearly understood each other and to hand out morality well over 100 years later to the players involved seems a bit ridiculous. If Alice brought him comfort, whenever, wherever, whatever - good for her. I can't see that it makes any difference when she met him. Or when their relationship started. Surely we are advanced enough nowadays to accept that Alice was good for him? A calming influence? Someone he clearly loved and who loved him?
We are going to disagree.
His last mistress was Daisy who he was still with until 1901 or 1902.
Edward did not have as many as people claim. This is just lies and gossip.
There is no evidence that Alexandra invited any of Edward's mistresses to Sandringham.
None were invited to celebrate Alexandra's birthday.
That is not what Edward believed. He accused her of infidelity.
She was invited by the Queen Alexandra to celebrate birthday.
Sonia is pure Keppel. She resembles her Keppel side. She looks like her Keppel cousins and aunts.
(Unless Edward VII was a Keppel. Queen Victoria and Queen Alexandra did adore Henry Keppel.)![]()
And there is a picture of Queen Alexandra with Henry Keppel arm & arm while holding hands.
All gossip.
Edward was easily bored and Alice was known for her quick wit.
Which Keppels? Henry, Colin and Mary, Derek and Bridget, Arnold and Gertrude, George and Alice.
Did Edward and George want the entire Keppel clan at your family wedding
Derek Keppel was the best friend of George V and Bridget was Queen Mary's friend
What evidence?
What words?
What family's history?
I did extensive research for years before coming to this conclusion.