Habsburg and HRE Titles

[Kit]

His name is Karl Habsburg- Lothringen in Austria. This is the correct name of the dynasty because Maria Theresia the heiress of the whole Habsburg Empire married Franz Stefan of Lothringen who became Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Because of this marriage the name of the house is officially Habsburg- Lothringen since MT began her reign in 1740 after her father's death.

 

[Araldus]

Also here, on WP (german), I found this notice:
Großherzogtum Toskana
"Annexion durch das Königreich Sardinien-Piemont – der formelle Titel des Großherzogs von Toskana ging an die Kaiser von Österreich, die ihn bis 1918 in ihrem Titel führten." (traslation: Annexation by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia - the formal title of Grand Duke of Tuscany went to the Emperor of Austria, which led him to 1918 in their title).

I read that the last "Großherzog von Toskana" (Grand Duke of Tuscany), in this line, was Ferdinand IV (Ferdinando IV. d’Asburgo-Lorena) (1859–1860).
But if this is correct can someone explain to me why some of his descendants use (and some genealogical sites still publish this title, attributing it to his descendants) the title of Grand Dukes of Tuscany, even after 1918 !?
Pls see: Tuscany

I ask: how can today be Sigismund, Grand Duke of Tuscany holder?
.:Granducato di Toscana - Grand Ducal Family - :.
Archduke Sigismund, Grand Duke of Tuscany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many Grand-Dukes of Tuscany there are at the same time??
Wikipedia still is wrong or it isn't correct?

Could anyone tell me if It's more correct the WP in english version or WP in german version about the list of Grand Dukes of Tuscany after 1918 and about the succession of this dynastic title?
In the 1918 year, as I read article posted above (see link), the Grand Duke of Tuscany gave up his title of Grand Duke of Tuscany to the Emperor of Austria for him and his descendants!

A great genealogical & dynastic mystery...
.

 

[MAfan]

Araldus, there isn't any genealogical or dynastic mystery.
First of all, because the article you posted above didn't refer about any renounciation to the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany in 1918, but it was published in 1919 and referred to the renkunciation of some members of the (former) Austrian Imperial Family to their claims to the Austrian throne.
Secondly, none of the persons mentioned in the article was in 1919 (and neither in 1918) the titular Grand Duke of Tuscany.
Thirdly, Grand Duke Ferdinando IV never gave up his title of Grand Duke of Tuscany, nor to the Emperor of Austria nor to anyone else. Surely in 1860 he didn't give up his title, and in fact in the 1860s he several times protested against the italian unification and the use of the title of King of Italy by Vittorio Emanuele II of Savoy, claiming that he still was the legitimate Grand Duke of Tuscany.
Wikipedia isn't infallible. On the contrary it contains lots of mistakes and wrong informations. Everyone can write on Wikipedia and often people write there wrong things.

 

[Araldus]

Dear Mafan, I read on WP, that in 1918 the then holder of the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany gave up. You say that WP is wrong about this: ok but... could you tell me a sure and official source about this WP error? Thank you very much.
The article that I posted above speaks of Peter Ferdinand who, until 1919 year, was surely an Archduke of Austria an Prince of Hungary.
According to this article Peter Ferdinand, in that year (1919), had renounced to his membership in the imperial house and also to his born-titles as Archduke of Austria, Prince of Hungary etc. in the hands of Republic of Austria.
So you're right if you say that in 1919 none of the people mentioned in the article was the "Grand Duke of Tuscany ": Peter Ferdinand had renounced as the specific title of Grand Duke of Tuscany before, in the 1918 year (WP source), so in 1919 he "was just a Archduke of Austria" and "a Prince of Hungary" into the (former) Austrian Imperial Family.
Remarkable is that, in this article, his mother, Alice (born Bourbon-Parme), was recorded as the widow of the Grand Duke of Tuscany.
Surely Peter Ferdinand, between 1860 and 1918 (approximately), had (I suppose) sometimes protest, against the annexation of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany to the Kingdom of Sardinia and, after, against Kingdom of Italy: but, after the end of 1918 ( the year of his renunciation to dynastic titles as Archduke of Austria and Prince of Hungary), Peter Ferdinand don't make more protests against anything.. .. perhaps, I suppose, because he had already renounced to the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany before, in the 1918 year, in the hands of Emperor of Austria for this particular title: isn't correct?

 

[Kit]

The title Grand Duke of Tuscany did certainly not go to the Austrian Emperor in 1918 because in that year the monarchy was abolished. What's more the last Emperor Karl never called himself Grand Duke of Tuscany when he ascended the throne in 1916. His great-uncle and predecessor Franz Joseph used the title from 1861 until his death in 1916.

 

[MAfan]

Wikipedia says that in 1860 the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany went to the Emperor of Austria, who bore it until 1918. This is false, since after 1860 Grand Duke Ferdinando IV continued to assert his claims to the Tuscan Throne. And however, if it were true that after 1860 the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany passed to the Emperor of Austria, how could Archduke Peter Ferdinand renounce to it in 1918 in favour of the very same Emperor?
And again, Archduke Peter Ferdinand in 1918 wasn't the titular Grand Duke of Tuscany. His brother Joseph Ferdinand was. So in 1918 Peter Ferdinand couldn't give the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany up to the Emperor.

It is true that the Emperor of Austria used among his various titles also the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany, but he used it in the very same way that he used the titles of King of Jerusalem and of Duke of Parma. The fact that Franz Josef in his titles had also Duke of Parma doesn't mean at all that at some point a Duke of Parma had ceded him his title; in the very same way the fact that he had the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany doesn't imply any renounciation in his favour of that title.

 

[Kit]

MAfan is absolutely right. His post explains everything there is to know about this matter.

 

[victor1319]

Archduke...

I just did read an article on "spektrum.de", a science magazine, about the famous forgery of Rudolf IV. von Habsburg (unfortunately in German).
https://www.spektrum.de/news/ein-plumpes-machwerk-eines-esels-und-schuelerhaften-stuempers/1681924

In short: In the middle of the 14th century the House of Habsburg was in a "make or break", "do or die" situation. They were lacking prestige and about to lose their standing, for which they had fought for so long.

The Boss of the Habsburg clan did what: He faked a document with a lot of privileges alledgedly granted to them by the long dead Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa. Bad luck: The forgery was discovered.

Well, we all know, the Habsburgs married their way to the Top of the Holy Roman Empire later and did hold the title of the Emperor for long centuries.

But, and this is the fun part: In this forgery Rudolf claimed, the Habsburgs were granted the title of "Pfalzerzherzog" - more or less ARCHDUKE. And albeit the forgery was discovered (twice, because it was forgotten for a long time until the 19th century) the Habsburgs call themselves still Erzherzog, Archdukes, and Archduchesses - a made up title.

 

[Blog Real]

Titles of the Emperor of Austria:
The full list (after the loss of the Lombardy in 1859 and Venetia in 1866):
His Majesty Emperor of Austria,
Apostolic King of Hungary,
King of Bohemia, of Dalmatia, of Croatia, of Slavonia, of Galicia, of Lodomeria, and of Illyria,
King of Jerusalem, and so forth,
Archduke of Austria,
Grand Duke of Tuscany and of Cracow,
Duke of Lorraine, of Salzburg, of Styria, of Carinthia, of Carniola and of the Bukovina,
Grand Prince of Transylvania,
Margrave in Moravia,
Duke of Upper and Lower Silesia, of Modena, Parma, Piacenza and Guastalla, of Auschwitz and Zator, of Teschen, Friuli, Ragusa and Zara,
Princely Count of Habsburg and Tyrol, of Kyburg, Gorizia and Gradisca,
Prince of Trent and Brixen,
Margrave of Upper and Lower Lusatia and in Istria,
Count of Hohenems, Feldkirch, Bregenz, Sonnenberg, and so forth,
Lord of Trieste, of Cattaro and of the Windic March,
Grand Voivode of the Voivodship of Serbia, and so forth, Sovereign of the Order of the Golden Fleece.

Source: Emperor of Austria - Wikipedia