Greenland and the Danish Monarchy


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Seems the meeting between the Greenland PM and King Frederik's is back on for January 8th per the calendar.
www.kongehuset.dk

H.M. Kongen modtager Landsstyreformand Múte B. Egede

H.M. Kongen modtager Landsstyreformand Múte B. Egede. Frederik VIII's Palæ, Amalienborg, kl. 14.00. H.M. Kongen modtager Landsstyreformand Múte B. Egede
www.kongehuset.dk www.kongehuset.dk
 
kalnel said:
Do you think Greenland would be inclined to keep the Danish monarch as head of state if it gained full independence from Denmark? I wonder if they have a scenario in mind similar to a British Commonwealth country.

On Trump, I believe he is right about Greenland being critical to U.S. security (and the security of the rest of the world), but I think he's trying to be a provocateur more than a policymaker with other comments.

You're absolutely right about friends, although I doubt he cares.



I don't think he'll have the carte blanche you're suggesting, but we'll see. Under our Constitution, the Senate controls foreign policy, not the president. It tends to be the most cautious part of legislature.

Also a very small point: Greenland is in North America, not in Europe. Setting aside the Trump flap, I wonder if Greenlanders think they would do better to join North American trade agreements. If Greenland weren't connected to Denmark, I'd argue that it would align best with its closest neighbor, Canada, which also has a large Inuit population and similar strategic importance in the Arctic. (Then they'd be under King Charles, rather than King Frederik!)



I'm not making excuses for him; I'm just trying to point out what his frame of reference is.
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I can't say whether they would keep the monarchy, that's up in the air. Just keep in mind that the independence movement still needs to win a referendum.

Yes, geographically and ethnically Greenland has way more in common with Canada than Europe. But the Greenlanders want independence, not becoming a new territory under another country.
Hawaii is geographically and ethnically a part of Oceania and was annexed by USA in 1800s, so using that argument, USA ought to vacate Hawaii.
Puerto Rico is ethnically, historically, geographically and culturally a part of Latin America and became a part of USA - after a questionable war against Spain - and they are not a state after so many years, and as such don't have representation in the Congress. USA isn't exactly spending many resources developing the place, so perhaps USA should vacate Puerto Rico as well.

USA has been calling for Europe to build up a military presence against China in order to apply more pressure there. A USA without friends in Europe won't get it. USA has many enemies worldwide and is often striking at these enemies. A USA that has seriously p*ssed off its friends will find it a lot more difficult to do that, leaving USA even more vulnerable to attacks.

Trump used the argument that Greenland is vital for US security, so USA needs to take the place. - USA already have bases there and has a free hand to operate there militarily as per agreement with DK and Greenland is a member of NATO.
Okay, how about buying the place? - That was met with a resounding no! That's so last millennium.
Well, the Greenlanders would be better off as part of USA. - Greenland has free access to healthcare, welfare education as well as workers rights on a level many Americans dream about. And they have a guaranteed political representation in the Danish Parliament.
Then Fox News (which as not acknowledged as a news channel in EU) came up with: USA is merely reclaiming Greenland, after all they were there during the occupation of DK in the 1940's. - DK had an acknowledged exile government in place at the time. The US presence was officially okayed by that government. Otherwise Canada would have taken over the protection of Greenland. On top of that Greenland officially became Danish territory 50 years before the US independence.
The latest is that the poor Greenlanders are treated terribly by the Danes and are oppressed. They want freedom, you know. - They have almost full autonomy in their own country. There are only a few thousand ethnic Danes there working in specialist functions. Greenlanders are quietly living and studying in DK.
- So the MAGA propaganda, because that's what it is, may well backfire big time, only strengthening the political opposition and the already widespread anger in USA against corporate America.

Anyway, on the concern-meter I'd put Panama way higher than Greenland.
 
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kalnel said:
I agree with you, although I'm not so sure about how things will work out for Denmark keeping Greenland in the kingdom. Greenland has been pushing for independence for a long time.

Frederik could do some very important work trying strengthening ties.
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Greenland itself is not part of the EU, but the Greenlanders are Danish citizens and, as such, also EU citizens. entitled for example to freedom of movement within the European Single Market. Greenland is also part of the Kingdom of Denmark, which pays for its defense and most of its social welfare system.

Personally I am skeptical (British English sceptical) that a country with only 56,000 people, but with an area of 2 million km2 ( a little over 800,000 sq mi) would be viable as a fully independent country. An alternative to either full independence or incorporation into a larger country would be to become a free associated state like the Marshall Islands , Palau, or the Federated States of Micronesia, although Trump is probably targeting a different kind of constitutional arrangement where Greenland would be an unincorporated organized territory like the US Virgin Islands, Guam, or Puerto Rico. Full incorporation into the USA as a state is probably not an offer that Trump is prepared to make at this point.

In any case, it seems to me that Greenlanders are faced with a choice between sticking with Denmark (and, indirectly, the EU) or gravitating towards some kind of association with the United States. As I said, I don't see going it alone (and taking full responsibility for Greenland's defense , social services, and public administration) as a realistic option.

I suppose Trump is betting that, with the right "incentives", Greenlanders will choose the USA over Denmark. However, as Toledo said, native peoples, be it the Native Americans or the Pacific Islanders (including in Hawaii, now a full US state), have a bad history of "deals" with the United States, so the Greenlanders should consider their options carefully.
 
Just keep in mind that the independence movement still needs to win a referendum.

It's essential the Danish government makes a strong, factual campaign if the referendum happens.

We've seen it with Brexit where huge lies were told by parties wanting the UK out of the EU without a strong campaign to the opposite offering facts.

We live in an age where fake news and misinformation is part of our daily lives. They serve a political purpose, persuading people to vote a certain way because their populist stance "sounds" good.

I hope the Danish government learns from other countries mistakes, and confront head on a possible referendum what may happen to Greenland without the backing of Denmark and the EU.
 
Alondra said:
Just keep in mind that the independence movement still needs to win a referendum.

It's essential the Danish government makes a strong, factual campaign if the referendum happens.

We've seen it with Brexit where huge lies were told by parties wanting the UK out of the EU without a strong campaign to the opposite offering facts.

We live in an age where fake news and misinformation is part of our daily lives. They serve a political purpose, persuading people to vote a certain way because their populist stance "sounds" good.

I hope the Danish government learns from other countries mistakes, and confront head on a possible referendum what may happen to Greenland without the backing of Denmark and the EU.
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As I mentioned before, Trump recently praised William McKinley who, as you as a Spaniard may know, was the US president who waged the Spanish-American War that led to Spain relinquishing control over Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines. McKinley was also the president who annexed Hawaii (at the time, a sovereign monarchy).

In Hawaii in particular, if I understand it correctly, the modus operandi was infiltration in the islands by American settlers, who then overthrew Queen Liliʻuokalani and declared Hawaii a republic, which later requested annexation by the United States.

In the case of Cuba, Puerto Rico, or the Philippines, McKinley pushed a narrative of aiding the local population in their liberation struggle against an oppressive European monarchy.

The latter narrative probaly wouldn't fly today with respect to Denmark (which is ranked #6 in the 2023 Democracy Index vs. #29 in the case of the USA). However, I see some similarities in Trump's strategy.
 
Mbruno said:
As I mentioned before, Trump recently praised William McKinley who, as you as a Spaniard may know, was the US president who waged the Spanish-American War that led to Spain relinquishing control over Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines. McKinley was also the president who annexed Hawaii (at the time, a sovereign monarchy).

In Hawaii in particular, if I understand it correctly, the modus operandi was infiltration in the islands by American settlers, who then overthrew Queen Liliʻuokalani and declared Hawaii a republic, which later requested annexation by the United States.

In the case of Cuba, Puerto Rico, or the Philippines, McKinley pushed a narrative of aiding the local population in their liberation struggle against an oppressive European monarchy.

The latter narrative probaly wouldn't fly today with respect to Denmark (which is ranked #6 in the 2023 Democracy Index vs. #29 in the case of the USA). However, I see some similarities in Trump's strategy.
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Yes, the Philippines.
Where USA had to deploy well over 100.000 troops to counter a rebellion there. Hence the cry of: "Civilize 'em with a Krag." (The standard US army rifle at the time.) Perhaps the good McKinley misunderstood the Philippines. The irony sure is palatable. :lol:

But you are right in a previous post. Greenland does not have the resources to be fully independent. As they are learning these days; it's a big bad world out there.
I think the Greenlandic independence movement live under the illusion that once independent, USA will maintain a military presence there, protect Greenland and otherwise not interfere. Leaving Greenland to freely do deals with anybody they choose, fully expecting that will be respected.

The irony is that has Trump been a little more patient and waited a year or two, until a not unlikely Greenlandic independence was on track, Greenland would have been much less able to resist the US "courtship" and Greenland would quietly come under the control of USA. There being few alternatives for Greenland.
As it is, he blew it. He can now only get Greenland through extortion or force.
 
hereditarytitles said:
Thanks for posting, but I couldn't read the article, because I am not a subscriber. That happens each time I want to read the Wall Street Journal.
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I'm able to get it through Apple News+, but, unfortunately, it's behind a paywall.
 
Alondra said:
We've seen it with Brexit where huge lies were told by parties wanting the UK out of the EU without a strong campaign to the opposite offering facts
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Parties supporting Brexit did not tell "huge lies" at all, and parties opposing Brexit did not simply "offer facts" at all. And please would you explain exactly what any of it has to do with Greenland, because I fail to see any connection? It's been over 8 1/2 years since the referendum. Why do people have to keep bringing it into things to which it's completely and utterly irrelevant?



There's enough trouble in the world at the moment. Why does Trump have to start picking fights with Denmark and Canada, both US allies? And France and Germany have got involved now.

Greenland's already got home rule, and I think it would be difficult for a country with such a small population to be independent, but that's up to Greenlanders
 
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The meeting between the Greenlandic PM and King Frederik lasted 40 minutes and not a peep about what went on has been published.

The Greenlandic also went out to express understanding for a widespread concern among the Greenlanders about the recent events playing things down.
Just as the Danish Foreign Minister did today. - The Danish Foreign Minister getting a lot of heat, for not breaking off his New Year holiday in Thailand and return home to address this issue in person. Because the normal reaction for a government facing a sudden and most precarious crisis, would be to personally drum up support among friends and allies and contact the US State Department in person. - If anyone would like a politician, we have one you can have for free. He answers the name Lars, especially if you buy him a beer...

Anyway, the MAGA segment is pretty enthusiastic about the idea of acquiring Greenland (as well as Canada and Panama, Bermuda too BTW) on the Net, making quite a spectacle of themselves IMO and hardly improving the image of the Americans. (Fortunately there are also a lot of more sensible Americans out there.) Their opinion really doesn't matter that much outside USA, unless Trump will use means that are totally out there.
And apart from an unofficial Russian advisor to Putin, I have yet to hear a leading non-US politician remotely supporting Trump.
He sure hasn't helped the Greenlandic independence movement, judging from the reactions in Greenland!

What matters is what he is going to say after he becomes president. And even then he will still need the support of the Congress, because the Republican majority there is tenuous, as not all Republican votes are a guarantee.
So that hurdle will have to be overcome first.

Should that happen, then we have a real crisis on our hands! All of us!

But as I see it, Trump threw away a big opportunity to actually take de facto full control of Greenland and its resources for real, by going out in such a boorish way. Patience and diplomacy would have been so much better.
 
kalnel said:
The Wall Street Journal has an interesting article today about Trump's interest in Greenland, the island's strategic importance, and Greenland independence: https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/what-trump-wants-with-greenland-71ccb535?mod=hp_lead_pos2
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Thanks. I’m a subscriber- and I tend to agree with Antony Blinken’s (outgoing Secretary of State) assessment: it’s a bad idea, it’s not going to happen. He said he didn’t think that there was much else to say on the subject.

I’m no Donald Trump fan. However- I have observed that he habitually spews nonsense that has not and will not go anywhere. As president/president-elect, he shouldn’t do it. But he has, and he does.

The article itself was very interesting beyond the Trump part. It went into why everyone is interested in it.
 
Muhler said:
Because the normal reaction for a government facing a sudden and most precarious crisis, would be to personally drum up support among friends and allies and contact the US State Department in person.
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There isn’t anyone to talk to. All the sane people will be leaving in a couple of weeks.

There’s no point in coming back for people you can’t deal with yet and won’t be able to anyway.

Archive of the WSJ article, which can be archived like most other sources. Why Trump Wants Greenland - WSJ
 
Prinsara said:
There isn’t anyone to talk to. All the sane people will be leaving in a couple of weeks.

There’s no point in coming back for people you can’t deal with yet and won’t be able to anyway.

Archive of the WSJ article, which can be archived like most other sources. Why Trump Wants Greenland - WSJ
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I actually meant mainly European friends as well as others, Canada springs to mind, and to make the displeasure of DK known in USA, as there are presumably still people in the State Department who are sane, even after 20th January.
 
Erin9 said:
Thanks. I’m a subscriber- and I tend to agree with Antony Blinken’s (outgoing Secretary of State) assessment: it’s a bad idea, it’s not going to happen. He said he didn’t think that there was much else to say on the subject.

I’m no Donald Trump fan. However- I have observed that he habitually spews nonsense that has not and will not go anywhere. As president/president-elect, he shouldn’t do it. But he has, and he does.

The article itself was very interesting beyond the Trump part. It went into why everyone is interested in it.
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I agree completely. I also suspect Rubio will temper some of the discussion when he gets in office next week. But as the WSJ pointed out, this is Trump's M.O. -- propose something outrageous as a starting point. As I said yesterday, it's posturing.

People have mentioned the rights of Greenlanders, but no one has pointed out that annexing Greenland would require the assent of the American people, too. It certainly would involve Congressional approval, ratification by the Senate, and possibly a Constitutional amendment, which would take years to craft.

And if anyone in mind has adding Greenland (or Panama or Canada) as new states, good luck. It took Alaska and Hawaii almost a century to gain statehood. It would also trigger a massive push for statehood for Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia.
 
A Greenland minister was just interviewed on CNN and while stating that Greenland is opened to collaboration with US regarding defence, military and economical measures, he also stated that Greenland is NOT for sale and the Independence is about them making their own decisions, they DO NOT WANT to be annexed by Denmark, US or any other country. He also added that now, in Greenland they are no longer using the term Independence (the term he used was Statehood, or someting similar, have not heard exactly ..sound issues at that moment).
 
Statehood? That's new to me. Do they want to become an independent state within a confederation with DK.
That's a new idea. That would mean a kind of commonwealth like the British commonwealth. - It would also mean they would retain King Frederik as head of state I suppose.
And that they could rely on agreements, co-operation and ultimately assistance from Denmark.

- Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I don't really know what to think about it at present

ADDED: I actually thought District of Colombia was a district on purpose, because it's the capital. Didn't know there was a push for making it a state.
 
Muhler said:
Statehood? That's new to me. Do they want to become an independent state within a confederation with DK.
That's a new idea. That would mean a kind of commonwealth like the British commonwealth. - It would also mean they would retain King Frederik as head of state I suppose.
And that they could rely on agreements, co-operation and ultimately assistance from Denmark.

- Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I don't really know what to think about it at present

ADDED: I actually thought District of Colombia was a district on purpose, because it's the capital. Didn't know there was a push for making it a state.
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It is possible that they just want to distance themselves from the term Independence and that is the first alternative term they are using or some indication of what they want exactly. He has mentioned that they are clear on the fact that they can not fully operate on their own so colaboration with other countries is needed.
 
Muhler said:
But as I see it, Trump threw away a big opportunity to actually take de facto full control of Greenland and its resources for real, by going out in such a boorish way. Patience and diplomacy would have been so much better.
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Trump does not do patience and diplomacy and although I would have agreed before that he is a buffoon that spews nonsense, this term will be so much worse than the last one and he may NOT be spewing nonsense this time.
 
Muhler said:
The meeting between the Greenlandic PM and King Frederik lasted 40 minutes and not a peep about what went on has been published.

The Greenlandic also went out to express understanding for a widespread concern among the Greenlanders about the recent events playing things down.
Just as the Danish Foreign Minister did today. - The Danish Foreign Minister getting a lot of heat, for not breaking off his New Year holiday in Thailand and return home to address this issue in person. Because the normal reaction for a government facing a sudden and most precarious crisis, would be to personally drum up support among friends and allies and contact the US State Department in person. - If anyone would like a politician, we have one you can have for free. He answers the name Lars, especially if you buy him a beer...

Anyway, the MAGA segment is pretty enthusiastic about the idea of acquiring Greenland (as well as Canada and Panama, Bermuda too BTW) on the Net, making quite a spectacle of themselves IMO and hardly improving the image of the Americans. .
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Bermuda too? That is news to me!
 
Mbruno said:
Bermuda too? That is news to me!
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Apparently.
I noticed it two or three times yesterday, where it was discussed that incorporating Bermuda into USA would somehow be beneficial.
I don't know the MAGA people well enough to say who it was and how important they are, I just went: Okay! One more country.
The latest is that a senior MAGA with a few million subscribers is today talking about the Greenlanders basically being slaves, who needs to be liberated.

Oh, and BTW the Gulf of Mexico is to be renamed the Gulf of America.

It's quite remarkable. It's like watching the daily debates on Russian TV where they talk about nuking other countries and a creating a greater Russia. It's really bizarre.
 
Royalty Observer said:
A Greenland minister was just interviewed on CNN and while stating that Greenland is opened to collaboration with US regarding defence, military and economical measures, he also stated that Greenland is NOT for sale and the Independence is about them making their own decisions, they DO NOT WANT to be annexed by Denmark, US or any other country. He also added that now, in Greenland they are no longer using the term Independence (the term he used was Statehood, or someting similar, have not heard exactly ..sound issues at that moment).
Click to expand...

Thinking about all this discussion about Greenland, Denmark, and the United States, I was just thinking that Prince Joachim's job must be pretty fascinating about now!

Muhler said:
Statehood? That's new to me. Do they want to become an independent state within a confederation with DK.
That's a new idea. That would mean a kind of commonwealth like the British commonwealth. - It would also mean they would retain King Frederik as head of state I suppose.
And that they could rely on agreements, co-operation and ultimately assistance from Denmark.

- Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I don't really know what to think about it at present

ADDED: I actually thought District of Colombia was a district on purpose, because it's the capital. Didn't know there was a push for making it a state.
Click to expand...

The District is separate for a reason, but some residents have pushed for statehood for more than 50 years. They want representation in Congress, which Washington does not have, since it isn't a state.

For many years, the thought was that if the District became a state, Puerto Rico would gain statehood at the same time, since it would have created a balance between the left-leaning Washington and right-leaning Puerto Rico. I don't think that balance is quite the same anymore, so the talk has died down, except among those pressing for statehood.

The other possibility that comes up every so often would be having the state of Maryland reincorporate the District. Maryland and Virginia donated the 10 square miles that became the original Washington, D.C., but in the 1840s, Virginia took its land back (present-day Arlington County) through "retrocession."

Maryland doesn't particularly want the District back, since so much of the area is federal land, which doesn't generate property taxes, and so many of the residents are disadvantaged, assuming care for them would force taxes up.

Muhler said:
Apparently.
I noticed it two or three times yesterday, where it was discussed that incorporating Bermuda into USA would somehow be beneficial.
I don't know the MAGA people well enough to say who it was and how important they are, I just went: Okay! One more country.
The latest is that a senior MAGA with a few million subscribers is today talking about the Greenlanders basically being slaves, who needs to be liberated.

Oh, and BTW the Gulf of Mexico is to be renamed the Gulf of America.

It's quite remarkable. It's like watching the daily debates on Russian TV where they talk about nuking other countries and a creating a greater Russia. It's really bizarre.
Click to expand...

I haven't heard anyone discuss either of those things. I think someone is making that stuff up to alarm people.
 
Here you go, Gulf of America, 25 secs into the vid.

Did a very short search, Bermuda admittedly appears to be just a wild speculation by a couple of MAGAs. Can't link though.
 
Maybe Denmark should start requesting the US Virgin Islands back.

Scrolling through twitter quickly and I see that the bootlicking MAGA trump Republicans are parroting and amplifying the whole conquer everyone narrative including Greenland. Now noth Germany and France have basically enge6red the chat saying hands off and Europe must stand together.
 
Muhler said:
there are presumably still people in the State Department who are sane, even after 20th January.
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Functionaries perhaps, but not the people with real decision-making power. Look at their boss.

Muhler said:
I actually thought District of Colombia was a district on purpose, because it's the capital. Didn't know there was a push for making it a state.
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It is like that because it’s the capital. The push to make it a state is for other reasons, like the population growth over the past few centuries of people who live there all year round and are not legislators returning to their districts.
Royalty Observer said:
There was even time for a reply from the Mexican president on the suggestion to rename the Golf of Mexico :

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I am so sorry she has to spend her time now and for the next four years doing this.

No matter how well she does it.
 
Trump is Putin‘s puppet. Anytime any of the posters talk about what kind of a legal status Greenland could have that Trump might have in mind makes me just laugh. He has no concept of how government works, we all know that and no plan ever. Only chaos is how he operates. His narcissism rules all, he wants attention. However, it’s dangerous as we have seen here in the United States. He got his groups riled up, so they actually killed people on his behalf. He is dangerous and the words he spouts become dangerous. Laughing at him as the Mexicans and Canadians have done is most effective.
 
Prinsara said:
It is like that because it’s the capital. The push to make it a state is for other reasons, like the population growth over the past few centuries of people who live there all year round and are not legislators returning to their districts.
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Nope, population has nothing to do with it. Washington, D.C., residents did not get home rule until 1974. Those who fought for local representation continue to fight for statehood so they can have representation in Congress.
 
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