Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich (1891-1942)

[Vasillisos Markos]

I have been reading Felix Yussopov's biography, Lost Splendor, and I am now intrigued by Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich who was a conspirator and actor in Rasputin's death. Does anyone care to comment about Dmitri, his life, his role in the imperial family, and the part his descendants may play in laying claim to the Russian throne?

To the moderators: Forgive me if this thread is redundant but I scoured the site and was unable to locate a thread devoted solely to Dmitri.

 

[pamela18335]

Vasillisos, Dmitri and his sister, Marie the younger (or Maria, I forget how she called herself) are sort of orphans. I think that both were strongly affected by their living with Serge and Ella.

I've read both of Marie's books years ago, and as I recall, was singularly unmoved. I found her rather superficial.

However, Dmitri is another story. Wouldn't it be fascinating to hear from his own fingers his version of the plot to assassinate Rasputin, and his real reactions to that rather botched job? Again, if I recall correctly, it was Dmitri's exile for his participation in Rasputin's murder that kept him out of Russia and the hands of the bolsheviks. Guess he owed Nicky a rather large debt of thanks (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Pamela,

Thanks for the responses.

I had heard that Marie was traumatized by being forced to marry into the Swedish Royal Family and also emotionally harmed being raised by Serge. Could this have rendered her superficial? But I would love to hear more about Dmitri. I think Felix Yussopov was in love with him and their estrangement after the murder hurt Felix but I don't think Dmitri was bisexual like Felix

 

[Odette]

I do not believe that GD Serge's upbringing of the children harmed them more that GD Ella's regard towards them. If you get the chance get the book "Education of a princess" it is GD Marie's autobiography. Dmitri married Audrey Emery and had two children Paul and Angelika (Kauffmann) I do not believe he ever wrote an autobiography. I visited the Yussupov Palace last week and was struck at how fragile his wax figure makes him look. During the years of the revolution Dmitri was very much in love with Natasha, GD Michael's (brother of Tsar Nicholas) wife. I doubt he was bi sexual or had any relationship with Felix other than their common hate towards Rasputin.

 

[MAfan]

Dmitri married Audrey Emery and had two children Paul and Angelika (Kauffmann)

Dmitri and Audrey had only one child, Paul, born in 1928; Angelica Kauffmann is Paul's second wife and widow.

 

[Odette]

Thanks McAfan.. I always thought they had two children.

 

[Russophile]

During the years of the revolution Dmitri was very much in love with Natasha, GD Michael's (brother of Tsar Nicholas) wife. I doubt he was bi sexual or had any relationship with Felix other than their common hate towards Rasputin.

That's the Crawford book on Michael and Natasha. Very good book, BTW. They tell how Dmitri visited Natasha when Michael was at the front and used to cough up blood from having TB and laugh when Natasha was alarmed.
GD Marie used to visit Michael and Natasha as well, however it isn't mentioned in her book "Education of a Princess" I wonder if it weren't because Natasha, as beautiful and educated as she was, was still a commoner.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

So Marie was a snob and looked down on Michael's marriage? I guess her upbringing was stronger than her own feelings since it appears she was forced to marry into the Swedish royal family. People can be funny.

I don't believe, from what I've read, that Dmitri was in love with Felix or even that he was bisexual but I think Felix greatly admired Dmitri and even had a strong attraction which was sexual in nature.

 

[Odette]

It cannot be assumed she was. In her book she speaks so little about everything and gets into minute details that can fill a book but sheds very little light in her real life.
I believe the fact that she was raised without a mother made her cold and distant.
In the book "Michael and Natasha" there is little evidence that either one of them ever gave her a second thought. Natasha was harbouring warm feelings for Dmitri and Michael was jealous.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I really must read Michael and Natasha. I saw how dashing Michael looked following Alexandra and Nicholas down the gangplank in the photos which accompanied a 1904 magazine article about the Romanovs. I wonder if there was any resentment between Nicky and Michael? I know dowager Empress Marie favored Michael.

 

[Warren]

I'm sure that Vasillisos has been patiently waiting for his thread to attract some attention.
It may have taken nine days, but it's paid off and the thread is now established within the Imperial Family of Russia Forum.

ETA.. I note that some subtle (or otherwise!) hints were employed elsewhere, but "whatever it takes" is a legitimate tactic to encourage posting.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Thank you, Warren. I love this forum.

Has anyone read The Flight of the Romanovs: A Family Saga by Perry and Pleshakov? The book is cited in a Wikipedia article about Dmitri and I wondered if the book covers Dmitri's life in detail.

 

[Russophile]

Is that fiction or non VM??
I got into Russian history due to reading a fictional account of Coco Chanel's life. I cannot remember whether the affair between Coco and Dmitry came first, or that GDMarie worked for Coco first and then the affair followed.

As to Felix and his, hmmmm. How shall we say this?
Attachment to Dmitry? He reminds me of a family member. Bi-sexual, yet a bit of a predator. Used to attach himself to those he felt attracted to with the hopes of "coverting them." Felix reminds me of this. However, this is only an opinion and I haven't any proof.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Dear Russo (my partner in crime)

I don't know much about the book but I suspect it is non-fiction since it appears to be about the Romanov survivors and their lives. I just wondered if it covered Dmitri in great detail which would be wonderful since he was on the scene when Rasputin was dispatched.

I concur with your feelings about Felix. Reading his bio, one gets a sense of his self-importance and that he did not give a fig about others' feelings when he wanted to engage in madcap antics and that he was enamored (for lack of a better word) about Dmitri.

 

[Russophile]

(We are Bonnie and Clyde and poor Warren is the law!! HA! )

Isn't it funny that there isn't much written about Dmitry. I found instances of him being "Dashing" to the Tsar and Tsaritza. GD Marie, his sister, had a big attachment to him and he was there when she married, then met her in Sweden. She was always greatful for that. Others have described him as handsome, yet melancholy. I think that came later with the shooting of Rasputin. I think he never forgot it and when Felix kept entertaining his guests with the telling which, I read in Greg King's book--got more and more dramatic with each new recitation.
He was rather lost as so many Russian emigre's were when they left their Mother Land. He did go back and visit Natasha in Paris. I would have thought he would have married her since he had such an undying love for her (they --Michael and Natasha--called him "Lily of the valley" whenever he came. Seemed to be his calling card, via GD Marie's book).

 

[Odette]

If the wax figure in the basement of the Yussupov Palace is true to form, Dmitri was a very slim, small in statute person. It makes sense if he had TB. Perhaps this was the reason why Natasha called him Lilly of the Valley to suggest he was delicate. In the book Michael and Natasha one is left with the impression those two were never lovers, although in other books it was suggested that he was more to her than a dear friend.
After they both left Russia, I would suspect they both needed more wealthy partners than each other and they drifted apart...JMHO

 

[Russophile]

He might have been Odette. I cannot understand the Russian psyche, however. So passionate! I don't doubt Natasha felt for him too.
Though, weren't they all thin? GD Serge was very thin from all the pictures I have seen.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

He might have been Odette. I cannot understand the Russian psyche, however. So passionate! I don't doubt Natasha felt for him too.
Though, weren't they all thin? GD Serge was very thin from all the pictures I have seen.

As the Duchess of Windsor allegedly said, one can never be too thin or too rich.

I wonder if Dmitri's psyche was absolutely and adversely affected by: 1. his mother dying after his birth; 2. absentee father; 3. pseudo father blown up by terrorists; 4. involvement in Rasputin's murder; 5. eventual murder and destruction of his royal relatives. Maybe this could explain why Dmitri did not write any memoirs nor (and I am guessing here) why he may not have opened up to others about his life in Russia. Perhaps it was all buried away in this subconscious.

 

[Russophile]

Very good theory VM! In GD Marie's book she caught GD Serge saying several times "I am your father now!" (Not in a Darth Vader way, however! )
Then he spent a lot of time with Nicholas and Alexandra and we know how socially retarded they were.

 

[Odette]

I wonder how many non Imperial Highnesses could withstand all these tragedies and still keep their heads screwed on properly.
Apart from the Duchess of Windsor's statement, Dmitri looked frail not just fashionably thin. He suffered from TB and this may have been a reason why he did not look too "healthy". Of course the guide's explanation was that he was so pale because he was scared of what they were about to do....which imho he should have since none of them could manage to kill Rasputin and discard his body without half the neighbourhood being in the know before daybreak...

 

[Russophile]

I wonder how many non Imperial Highnesses could withstand all these tragedies and still keep their heads screwed on properly.
Apart from the Duchess of Windsor's statement, Dmitri looked frail not just fashionably thin. He suffered from TB and this may have been a reason why he did not look too "healthy". Of course the guide's explanation was that he was so pale because he was scared of what they were about to do....which imho he should have since none of them could manage to kill Rasputin and discard his body without half the neighbourhood being in the know before daybreak...

Now I wonder about that. Dmitry was in the war effort and Misha was sent to the front many times, as you know with the Crawford book. In GD Marie's book, Dmitry would come visit her at her hospital after being at the front. Now! Wtih a man who was living with death, do you think he was afraid of Rasputin like the guards said? I don't think so.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

But being at the front is not the same as killing an individual in a palace. I think the original plan was to have Rasputin die from eating the poisoned wine and cakes. Dmitri and the others were upstairs while Felix attempted to commit "murder most foul" down below but when that failed, all hell broke loose with Rasputin attempting to escape and shots being fired. Felix kept his cool but the others, according to Felix, were not so sangfroid. Could it be that Dmitri was softer than he may have appeared or acted?

 

[Russophile]

Could it be that Dmitri was softer than he may have appeared or acted?

Good question, VM. And since we don't have a whole heck of a lot of knowledge about him, except what others have written, and sometimes memories can be kinder than the truth, we can't be very sure.
However! That's something we can delve into, isn't it?? !!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I am currently reading Memories of Alexei Vokov: Personal Valet to Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna 1910-1918. Volkov started out in the military and caught the eye of Alexander III and was taken into personal service for the imperial family. After the death of Dmitri's mother, it appears Volkov became a traveling companion for Grand Duke Paul, who suffered from some "nervous malady" being treated in Berlin and often going away for the cure and treatments. I wonder if Dmitri inherited his father's physical or psychological maladies? Was Dmitri's sister, Grand Duchess Marie, in good physical health?

 

[Russophile]

So far in her bio. she exhibits no ill health. Her first pregnancy had gone well also.

 

[Warren]

Felix kept his cool but the others, according to Felix, were not so sangfroid.

"according to Felix" being the operative phrase.
Opinions seem to be agreed that Prince Felix was somewhat full of himself so it's no surprise that his description of events may be self-serving.

Although there were others present, it's my understanding that Felix was the only one who detailed the events surrounding Rasputin's killing. From an historical perspective it's a pity we have just the one account. Then again, in the scheme of things the gory detail is just a macabre sidelight, albeit in its fashion foreshadowing what was to come.

 

[Odette]

Now I wonder about that. Dmitry was in the war effort and Misha was sent to the front many times, as you know with the Crawford book. In GD Marie's book, Dmitry would come visit her at her hospital after being at the front. Now! Wtih a man who was living with death, do you think he was afraid of Rasputin like the guards said? I don't think so.

Russo I do not believe the quote was that the GD was afraid of Rasputin but rather of the act those four were about to commit.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

"according to Felix" being the operative phrase.
Opinions seem to be agreed that Prince Felix was somewhat full of himself so it's no surprise that his description of events may be self-serving.

Although there were others present, it's my understanding that Felix was the only one who detailed the events surrounding Rasputin's killing. From an historical perspective it's a pity we have just the one account. Then again, in the scheme of things the gory detail is just a macabre sidelight, albeit in its fashion foreshadowing what was to come.

Right you are, Warren. Felix is certainly full of himself and would have been a very difficult person to be around, at least in my humble opinion. I think Dmitri was obviously involved or there would have been more protestations on his part but I too wonder just how involved Dmitri was in the plot and murder. I think Felix was so full of his grandeur and importance that he could not imagine ever being made to account for the crime and may have been the main instigator, the others just going along to make sure the mission was carried out.

 

[Russophile]

Russo I do not believe the quote was that the GD was afraid of Rasputin but rather of the act those four were about to commit.

Oh good point Odette! Thanks!

 

[Russophile]

Right you are, Warren. Felix is certainly full of himself and would have been a very difficult person to be around, at least in my humble opinion. I think Dmitri was obviously involved or there would have been more protestations on his part but I too wonder just how involved Dmitri was in the plot and murder. I think Felix was so full of his grandeur and importance that he could not imagine ever being made to account for the crime and may have been the main instigator, the others just going along to make sure the mission was carried out.

Probably the conspirators did not know their way to hell was paved with those good intentions of offing Rasputin.
My Peter says that in his latter life, Felix would tell the tale and retell it drawing it out more and more. Anad that Irina grew very irritated with him about it. Though she didn't say much. In fact, all of Xenia and Sandro's children didn't say much. I can't remember where I read it though they were known as the silent princes.