Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte & Luxembourg Jewels of the Past

[Maxie]

Where did this information come from in the first place? are we sure it's true? I'm finding it really hard to believe- She owned a LOT of jewelry, and they are really historic pieces. The bit about the fighting seems a bit untrue too, since there are so many pictures of all the women in the family wearing the pieces at different times, which would not have been the case of the Grand Duchess was protective of her jewels.

If you go just a couple of pages back, you can see that some serious Luxembourgian press is writing about it and on top of that we've got an official press release from Sotheby's that announces the upcoming auction...

I find it also very hard to believe, but unfortunately it's true...

 

[drimal]

First of all I want to post this article from the Jeudi:

Droits, devoirs, mythes
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Danièle Fonck / Jean Nassau, Prince de Luxembourg, a dit une phrase des plus intéressantes dans un entretien accordé au magazine Point de Vue. Citation: Nous avons fait des partages comme cela se fait dans toutes les familles.[/FONT]
Certes, à la mort des parents, s'il y a lieu de partager, les enfants le font, avec plus au moins de bonheur et, généralement, dans la plus totale discrétion. Mais il se trouve que la famille grand-ducale n'est pas n'importe quelle famille et ses membres ne sont pas Monsieur et Madame Tout-le-Monde.
Le prince Jean, faut-il le rappeler, a jadis renoncé à ses droits de succession, à son titre et à ses autres prérogatives pour mener la vie personnelle et professionnelle de son choix. Cette décision lui appartient, elle l'honore et n'engage que lui. Les autres enfants du Grand-Duc Jean et de la Grande-Duchesse Joséphine-Charlotte en ont décidé autrement à l'époque, ont préféré tenir leur rang et mener les vies adéquates. Cela signifie ni plus ni moins qu'ils ont des obligations que n'a pas le citoyen lambda.
Etre monarque, au XXIe siècle, particulièrement dans les démocraties européennes, terres du suffrage universel, n'est pas une banalité. Il en découle un statut spécial pour le chef d'Etat et ses proches, un rôle à tenir, un devoir de représentation à la perfection, une quasi-tâche de missionnaire afin de préserver la stabilité politique en toutes circonstances.
La dynastie de Nassau-Weilburg, jeune dynastie luxembourgeoise, a traversé des crises dès son arrivée.
Aujourd'hui, la Cour semble à un nouveau tournant.
Tout avait bien commencé pourtant: un prince héritier bien formé, Henri, un mariage idyllique avec une jeune fille ravissante, plein de bébés, une succession sans vraies fausses notes, bref, une histoire digne d'un conte de fée.
La famille grand-ducale, sûrement l'une des plus populaires, disposait pour ainsi dire d'une assurance vie sur plusieurs générations. Qu'est-ce qui a donc fait que le vent tourne subitement?
Nos «royals» auraient-ils, à l'instar de la plupart des monarchies européennes, été victimes du «syndrome de Diana»? Peut-être bien.
En République, la notoriété est l'aléa par lequel le politique doit passer pour être élu. C'est une plaie; ce n'est pas un atout. En ouvrant leurs portes et leurs fenêtres aux caméras, en paraissant dans les pages «people» des magazines, en se popularisant à outrance, ceux-là même, qui redoutent les entretiens de fond avec la presse sérieuse, se banalisent et se fragilisent. Le large consensus qui faisait qu'on ne parle guère d'eux, qu'on taise leurs erreurs ou faux pas d'humains et qu'on respecte leurs distance et discrétion, se fend.
S' y ajoute que tous ces princes au pouvoir ont une autre raison d'être: les hommes ont besoin de mythes, ne fût-ce que pour échapper au quotidien. Les cours royales en font partie et d'elles, on attend le sans-faute. Les problèmes d'éducation des enfants, les querelles de famille, les soucis d'argent? C'est le lot du commun des mortels. Aux nantis et privilégiés de se débrouiller, voilà qui est bien la moindre des choses...
Un monarque n'a pas d'humeurs, n'a pas de rancunes, n'a pas de problèmes d'héritage. Il ressemble au peuple dans un seul et unique domaine, la santé voire la maladie.
Après les rumeurs, après les errements à propos du «Grünewald» qu'aucun citoyen ne veut payer deux fois ni ne veut entretenir (cf le sondage TNS ILRES/Le Jeudi), le mariage chez le Renouveau charismatique et les bijoux de famille, (parmi lesquels une tabatière Tiffany offert par le président John F. Kennedy au prince héritier Jean en visite à Washington avec sa mère du temps de la grande et belle Amérique à laquelle l'Europe devait beaucoup), l'heure de la sérénité et de l'élégance serait vraiment à nouveau de mise.
--------------------------------------------

Jeudi is a Republican newspaper which appears every thursday in French addition to the newspaper Tageblatt! They are often very cynical and disrespectful towards the Grand Ducal family!

This article is a whole mess and really not worth to be translated. As the title revails Danielle Fonck, one of the biggest adversaries of the Grand Ducal family is talking about duties, rights and myths. She is talking about Prince Jean of Nassau who has renounced to his succession rights which honours him but the other members didn't and thus they have duties ... and she is saying that the family was going through many crises (I don't know that many!). She accuses them being victims of the Diana syndrom by opening their doors to the world. In her eyes the Royals have to be without mistake, issues like heritage problems are for the average human beings. To finish this ironical article she is mixing up all the stories of the past year (Grünewald discussion, Prince Louis becoming a father and the Jewelry problem).

Jeudi has also made a poll together with the Ilres with questions like: Do you think that the Jewelry should be sold? Do you think that the State should pay again for the Grünewald? Does the popularity of the GD family has been bothered by the actual problems?

In my eyes Le Jeudi just wants to make a fuss about a story which isn't that scandalous in my eyes! What else can one expect from Republicans than critizing the monarchs all the time ....

 

[drimal]

This subject has caused quite a stir in Luxembourg but still the Royal Court hasn't said why they want to sell GD Josephine-Charlotte's Jewelry.

First of all there was a serious discussion about the wood Grünewald which the Grand Ducal family wanted to sell to the State but the parliajment and it's chief Prime Minister Jean Claude Juncker declined the offer.

Why did they decline the offer? Well, there is a sad story (which is true!) about Prince Felix, the father of Grand Duke Jean who was a bad gambler and lost the amount of the Grünewald in one night!
This was a humiliation for the Grand Ducal family but the State wanted to help them and made a gift by offering the Grünewald to the Grand Ducal family. In other words, the State bought the Grünewald and sold it to the Grand Ducal family without asking any cent!

It would been quite an outrage among the population if the State would have bought the Grünewald from the Grand Ducal family and thus paied the price twice!

Rumours are saying that the Grand Ducal family urgently need a large amount of money and thus sell the Jewelry after failing with the Grünewald.

 

[Sophus]

That's strange - I've always thought that the grand ducal family is among the most wealthy families in Europe. When the present grand ducal couple visited Denmark in 2003 it was said in TV that Luxembourg is one of the richest countries in the World and that the grand ducal house is one of the richest institutions in the little country.... ???

 

[johann]

That's strange - I've always thought that the grand ducal family is among the most wealthy families in Europe.

Me too. Didn´t Forbes estimate Henri´s wealth at 4, 6 billions Euro?
BTW the Grünwald case is tasteless too. Not difficult to understand that Luxembourg’s citizens are not amused.

 

[drimal]

Me too. Didn´t Forbes estimate Henri´s wealth at 4, 6 billions Euro?
BTW the Grünwald case is tasteless too. Not difficult to understand that Luxembourg’s citizens are not amused.

In my eyes it's pretty obvious that the Grand Ducal family needs money badly and thus are selling the Jewelry of the GD Josephine-Charlotte.

It would'nt have been correct if the State would have bought back the Grünwald formerly offered to the Grand Ducal family ... with taxes.

 

[johann]

In my eyes it's pretty obvious that the Grand Ducal family needs money badly and thus are selling the Jewelry of the GD Josephine-Charlotte.

Hmmmmm, some bad investments???


This auction challenged a lot of criticism in Luxembourg. Looks like the Nassaus miscalculated in many ways. Isn´t this exceptional, drimal? I always thought Luxembourg’s serious press is extremely discrete and criticises the grand ducal family very rarely.

According to the newspaper Wort Grand Duke Henri “took the criticism to heart” and wants to comment on this within the next few days.
I’m really curious. What a strange situation!

 

[Sophus]

In my eyes it's pretty obvious that the Grand Ducal family needs money badly and thus are selling the Jewelry of the GD Josephine-Charlotte.

It would'nt have been correct if the State would have bought back the Grünwald formerly offered to the Grand Ducal family ... with taxes.

Hi Drimal - Can see you are from Luxembourg. How does the Luxembourg people look upon their grand ducal family's finacial situation in general? Does people think they are rich or poor? Here in Denmark we know that our royal family is not rich but that the 3 daughters of the late Queen Ingrid shared her fortune of 100 millions kroner and her jewels. Only the official account is published once a year while the private fortune is a well kept secret. How much does the people of Luxembourg know?

 

[kirstengrafin]

According to the Luxemburger Wort, the sale of the jewels has been cancelled:

http://www.wort.lu/articles/5761210.html

In his published statement, Grandduke Henri says he underestimated the strong symbolic value of the items and the emotion the sale of the items would cause. The Grand Duke also explained that, as head of the family, he wanted to sell the pieces because he believed it was his duty to share all family heirlooms equally with other family members.

 

[Marengo]

Good news and a wise decision by the Grand Duke. I hope the family can devide them or that the GD will buy out the other family members (or maybe even put all the jewels in a foundation).

 

[Maxie]

That's definitely good news. I found it quite depressing that they were going to sell these beautiful pieces! Maybe my prayers have been heard...

 

[Sophus]

I just wish that Lord Linley had been just as wise as the Grand Duke of Luxembourg!

The jewels of the late princess Margareth held a similar symbolic value in my humble opinion...

 

[drimal]

Good decision!

 

[Hannelore]

All I can say is thank god!!! Selling those jewels would have been something awful towards their own family and country. Glad it won't happen!

 

[johann]

As far as I can judge it (from a non-Luxembourgian point of view) the discussion was no longer only about the jewels but also about the role of the grand ducal family - and this is very uncomfortable and maybe even unfamiliar for Henri.
Today’s printed version of the “Wort” (see below) has a long article about the sale. It reports that even Luxembourg’s political parties are now involved in the discussion.
The Green Party demands more transparency related to Henri´s budget.
The president of the Luxembourgian Labour Party (= part of the government) says there are certain irritations about some decisions of the grand ducal court lately. And he describes the communication policy of the grand ducal court as inadequate or even missing.
The president of the reigning Christ-social party regards the latest resentment against the sale as a sign of sympathy for the late Grand Duchess. And all the politicians’ felt impelled to emphasize that the criticism was bent on the latest decisions and does not question the monarchy as form of government.
(source: d´Wort)

It looks like the citizens of Luxembourg are still very impressed by the late Josephine-Charlotte and judged the sale as tasteless. And obviously Henri and his siblings did themselves no service with this Sotheby’s idea. The retraction was a necessary concession but there are still a lot of questions left unanswered.

 

[lisamaria]

It looks like the citizens of Luxembourg are still very impressed by the late Josephine-Charlotte and judged the sale as tasteless. And obviously Henri and his siblings did themselves no service with this Sotheby’s idea. The retraction was a necessary concession but there are still a lot of questions left unanswered.

The Grand Duke appears to me as someone who will be met with respect and regard by everyone he meets. But. MariaTeresa, no matter how popular, is a woman chopped out of entirely different wood than Josephine-Charlotte. It could be as simple as that she was different generation, GD Jean was different generation, and the adjustment period is longer than anyone expected. I do think that during GD Jean's reign, the royal family's position was accepted as it was, and Henri, who is very shy and, at times, obviously uncomfortable in his position, just hasn't got his father's authority. He has made a couple bad mis-steps lately, and that has made him an easy target.

That aside, I've got the impression that the family is rich; more importantly, that it's rich in assets such as bonds and shares, but not so much in cash or real estate. Like anyone in that position, they just might be having cash flow problems, and selling off something unessential like a couple of earrings might be in their eyes less bad than selling off land or other property of "real" value.

It's nice to see those things to stay in the family though Hope they can resolve how to divide them.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I do get the feeling that MT wanted to see them gone. She's apparantly been on a bit of a purge ridding the palaces of any trace of JC she can find. I'm not a fan of MT, I adored JC and I find the thought of selling off her possessions completely unnessecary and spiteful.

 

[Zonk]

Well I am glad that they decided to keep the jewels in the family.

On another note..its interesting how we are all taking sides (myself included) in the battle between MT and JC. While reading another thread about someone's marriage..it reminded me that the relationship between in-laws is somewhat like a marriage except you don't get to choose who your child marries. I am sure mistakes were made on both MT and JC's part...its a shame they weren't able to reach an easy balance.

 

[BeatrixFan]

You're right Zonk. Everyone I speak to either likes MT or JC. Not the two together. I'll always be a JC boy though. I mean, everyone with those initials is pretty fab. Josephine-Charlotte, Joan Crawford, Jesus Christ. Now that's logic.

 

[Hannelore]

You're right Zonk. Everyone I speak to either likes MT or JC. Not the two together. I'll always be a JC boy though. I mean, everyone with those initials is pretty fab. Josephine-Charlotte, Joan Crawford, Jesus Christ. Now that's logic.

Lol. never looked at it that way

 

[foiegrass]

I do get the feeling that MT wanted to see them gone. She's apparantly been on a bit of a purge ridding the palaces of any trace of JC she can find. I'm not a fan of MT, I adored JC and I find the thought of selling off her possessions completely unnessecary and spiteful.

Well said. I prefer JC to MT as well. I am glad that this sale isn't going to proceed.

 

[Henri M.]

Problematic heritages - where have all the fabulous jewels gone?

Not only Grand-Duke Jean but also all who inherit from the late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte have to give up their claim on a considerable part of her heritage to enable a transfer to a Foundation.

Like in the Netherlands, also in Luxembourg (which has a lot common with the Netherlands' law-system due to the royal union between the two countries) there is no such thing as 'Crown Property'. It is private property (can be either a natural person or a legal person) or state property. Like in the Netherlands also in Luxembourg the inheritance regulations are that all children receive a so-called 'child's portion' and the surviving spouse receives 'half plus one child's portion'. 'Disinheriting someone' is legally impossible.

The late Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte had 5 children. Her husband receives half (5 portions) plus 1 child's portion. That means:

6/11 for the surviving spouse, HRH Grand-Duke Jean of Luxembourg
1/11 for HI&RH Archduchess Marie-Astrid of Austria born Princess of Luxembourg
1/11 for HRH The Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, Duke of Nassau
1/11 for HRH Prince Jean of Luxembourg
1/11 for HRH Princess Margaretha von und zu Liechtenstein born Princess of Luxembourg
1/11 for HRH Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg
-----
11/11

You see, the value of Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte's heritage must be divided by 11 parts. Or Grand-Duke Jean must 'outpay' his children and keep the jewels. The family may be rich, that does not mean there is enough liquid cashflow to 'outpay' the children and to pay the succession taxes.

Belgium has a similar system as the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Much of the late Princess Lilian's jewels needed to be sold because Princess Marie-Christine of Belgium needed the cash badly, as she was almost broke and living in poor circumstances in the United States.

The inheritance of King Leopold III of the Belgians went as follows:

7/13 to the surviving spouse, HRH Princess Lilian of Belgium, Princess of Réthy
1/13 to HRH Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg, Duchess of Nassau born Princess of Belgium
1/13 to HM King Baudouin of the Belgians
1/13 to HRH Prince Albert of Belgium, the Prince of Liège
1/13 to HRH Prince Alexander of Belgium
1/13 to HRH Princess Marie-Christine of Belgium
1/13 to HRH Princess Marie-Esmeralda of Belgium
-----
13/13

You see that the possessions of the late King Leopold III became very fragmented. After the death of Princess Lilian (owner of fabulous royal jewels) almost nothing went to the Belgian royal family:

1/3 to HRH Prince Alexander of Belgium
1/3 to HRH Princess Marie-Christine of Belgium
1/3 to HRH Princess Marie-Esmeralda of Belgium
-----
3/3

Because Princess Marie-Christine wanted the money, the two other siblings had to sell the priceless items to 'outpay' her inheritance. Here lies the answer for the question: 'Where have all the fabulous jewels gone?'

 

[Avalon]

You're right Zonk. Everyone I speak to either likes MT or JC. Not the two together. I'll always be a JC boy though. I mean, everyone with those initials is pretty fab. Josephine-Charlotte, Joan Crawford, Jesus Christ. Now that's logic.

You've just found one, Beatrixfan! I loved Josephine-Charlotte very much but I like Maria Theresa as well!!
JC is what a true Princess should be/was. MT is the more modern type - love match of the modern day princess.

Back to topic, I am really glad they cancelled the sale: it unnerved me to think that JC's jewels were going to be worn by non-family members. I am against selling family heirlooms at all.

 

[Henri M.]

I am against selling family heirlooms at all.

Sometimes you need to sell. Imagine you have one sister and she says: "Okay dear Avalon, keep the jewels, I want half of the heritage in rock-hard Euro's, thank you".

You need to pay succession taxes ánd you need to have enough cash to 'outbuy' your sister's share so that the jewels can be kept for the family. You will understand that sometimes a sale is necessary.

If two or three children of Grand Duke Jean simply prefer the cash above an 'useless' diademe, the others are also forced to co-operate in a sale. The same we have seen with the late Princess Margaret's jewels and with the late Prince Bernhard's Italian estate, his yacht and other properties (his two illegitimate daughters logically preferred cash above 'useless' diamond crowns).

 

[BeatrixFan]

You've just found one, Beatrixfan! I loved Josephine-Charlotte very much but I like Maria Theresa as well!!

Well there we are!

Sometimes you need to sell.

Only if you need the money and the Grand Ducal Couple certainly don't. And you definately don't sell them to family members. You give them.

 

[Eliza]

I'm glad that they're not selling the jewels....

 

[Henri M.]

Only if you need the money and the Grand Ducal Couple certainly don't.

We have no idea how wealthy the (large!) grand-ducal family is ánd how that wealth is builded up: in 'dead' possessions like art, real estate, jewels or in portfolios with stocks.
The sales of properties in the House of Hannover, or after the death of Princess Margaret Countess of Snowdon, or after the death of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands learn us that -on first sight- awesomely rich families still need to sell properties.

And you definately don't sell them to family members. You give them.

That is not true. When -for an example- Prince Jean and Prince Guillaume want to sell jewels because they prefer the hard Euro's and their siblings Archduchess Marie-Astrid, Grand Duke Henri and Princess Margaretha wants to keep the jewels in the family, they must compensate the two brothers for the financial value of their share in the heritance of their mother.

Example:
I think that most common families in the Benelux will have experienced exactly the same.
Imagine that my parents die.
I want to keep their house worth € 500.000,--.
But my sister feels nothing for the house and prefers the money.
I want to keep the house, maybe I want to live in it by myself.
I need to outbuy my sister's share to my parental house, this will cost me € 250.000,--.
Where do I get that money from?
Maybe I have to sell my own house, or sell a lot of the inventory or take a second mortgage to outbuy my sister.

 

[foiegrass]

That is not true. When -for an example- Prince Jean and Prince Guillaume want to sell jewels because they prefer the hard Euro's and their siblings Archduchess Marie-Astrid, Grand Duke Henri and Princess Margaretha wants to keep the jewels in the family, they must compensate the two brothers for the financial value of their share in the heritance of their mother.

Where is the information that Prince Jean and Gulliaume wanted to sell the jewels from??? Thks

 

[Warren]

Where is the information that Prince Jean and Gulliaume wanted to sell the jewels from??? Thks

I think Henri was just providing an example (his word) of what can happen when items are left collectively to a number of siblings who then cannot agree on how to divide them.
From the little we know it could be surmised that this situation would not have occurred if the late Grand Duchess's will had specified who received what, item by item.

 

[BeatrixFan]

And you definately don't sell them to family members. You give them.

I didn't mean the logistics of it. I meant that IMO, it just isn't the done thing to sell jewels etc to family members. You give them. And I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that the Grand Ducal Couple are that hard up that they need to sell them. If they were in poor street, they wouldn't have cancelled the sale.