General News about Frederik, Mary and Family Part 17: January 2018 - June 2020


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Well, I am being serious.

That these meetings have not been made public does not mean they are secret. - Just that they are informal.
The DRF have informal meetings (i.e. meetings that are not listed in the official diary) all the time and with all sorts of people. Why not the military?

I do find your lack of confidence in Frederik as well as the officers somewhat worrying. The officers are professionals. They won't tell Frederik things he is not cleared to know (considering how high a clearance Frederik must have that can't be much, in regards to Danish affairs that is, NATO affairs is another matter) nor would they tell him anything they are under orders from the Minister not to tell him.
I will however find it very disturbing should a minister gag the military in regards to the DRF.

Even if they discuss defense politics, the security situation, materiel and procedures, why shouldn't they? It would I imagine be useful for Frederik to also learn about the opinions the officers, for career reasons perhaps, are reluctant to tell their political masters.
I bet Frederik has experienced at least one briefing along these lines:
"The Defense Chiefs and I are in perfect agreement in regards to the current defense policy. Right?!?" - "Yes, minister." - "You see, Your Royal Highness, there are no issues within the military."

I don't know about you, but I do not have full confidence in the politicians always presenting, shall we say, a full picture.

------------------

Now for Verbier and the cottage there.

Yes, Lady Daly, at least a part of the down payment (and renovation) of the cottage could, and probably did, come from the "rammebeløb" (*) However as M&F had only been married for a few years back in 2009, that IMO can't have been much.
Some are seemingly appalled that the DRF get so much for their "rammebeløb" that they can save up enough to pay for a house in the more fashionable part of Switzerland and conclude that it means the amount they get, must be too high.
Personally I find that attitude baffling!
Apparently the DRF members are not allowed to increase their personal fortune... The only other DK citizens who are in the same situation, are those who receive basic welfare and who are to be browbeaten into getting a job.
If my employer even suggested I couldn't have an additional income apart from my salary, I would hand in my resignation.

(*) Perhaps someone can suggest an English word for "rammebeløb"? The part of the apanage that is for personal and private use.
 
Yes, Lady Daly, at least a part of the down payment (and renovation) of the cottage could, and probably did, come from the "rammebeløb" (*) However as M&F had only been married for a few years back in 2009, that IMO can't have been much.
Some are seemingly appalled that the DRF get so much for their "rammebeløb" that they can save up enough to pay for a house in the more fashionable part of Switzerland and conclude that it means the amount they get, must be too high.
Personally I find that attitude baffling!

So do I.
There's also the fact that the Crown Prince, at the time (2009), had had an apanage for more than 20 years. He could have saved, invested and I think I have at some point read somewhere that there was also an inheritance after QI.

Ekstra Bladet is always "outraged" by something, especially with "big" events (OM's 80th) coming up. They always have a bigger "campaign" before or around the big DRF events. Or when the CPC or others are abroad or on holiday.

I trust all that are outraged show similar concern about QM (and PH) owning private property and J&M also owning a holiday home in France? No? And that all mentioned rent the places or part of them and have done for some time now?
 
So do I.
There's also the fact that the Crown Prince, at the time (2009), had had an apanage for more than 20 years. He could have saved, invested and I think I have at some point read somewhere that there was also an inheritance after QI.

Ekstra Bladet is always "outraged" by something, especially with "big" events (OM's 80th) coming up. They always have a bigger "campaign" before or around the big DRF events. Or when the CPC or others are abroad or on holiday.

I trust all that are outraged show similar concern about QM (and PH) owning private property and J&M also owning a holiday home in France? No? And that all mentioned rent the places or part of them and have done for some time now?

Not to the same extent. At present.
And they use the old trick of calling various "experts" until they find someone who has an opinion that fits the angle of the story and then quote that expert.

It has indeed been suggested that a part of Frederik's inheritance may have gone to the house in Verbier. Lene Balleby from the PR office will not rule that out.

Oddly enough, no one seems to see a problem in the wine from Chateau Cayx being sold commercially
 
Hopefully the property in Verbier will be sold because it seems wasteful to me to have a property and pay for its upkeep only to have the Crown Prince Family be the only occupants, and since they are based in Denmark, will only occupy the home for a small fraction of the year.

When I first heard about the house in Verbier, which came about because of a casual comment by Crown Prince Frederick, I did not expect it to be controversial due to the fact that the Danish Royal Family has purchased property outside of the country previously. The Bloomberg article states that Danish lawmakers have to approve the purchase of foreign assets, so if that is true and Crown Prince Frederick did not comply then he should face consequences - negative media, censure, etc., but it is unclear if the lawmaker quoted thinks that there is an issue with this particular transaction, or that overall members of the DRF have purchased residences outside of Denmark. Another implied issue in the article is that the DRF is "notoriously closed" and the media does not challenge them. From my vantage point it does seem that the media is very favorable towards the DRF, especially the Crown Prince Family, but is it a broad or isolated opinion that, in return, they are "notoriously closed"?
 
I'm not aware of any condition of the DRF needing a political approval for buying (and selling, which QMII has also done. It was a farm) property.
The only ones who cannot freely dispose over their own money in DK are people who are put under a guardianship by a judge, because they are mentally unable to handle their own economy. A very drastic step, which I doubt is needed for the DRF. 👅

As for being notoriously closed. Yes, that is a complaint we hear from time to time from the media, especially the tabloids. (In fact I'm almost certain I can name the paper the Bloomberg quote comes from, without even having read it!) Who pretty much demand that nothing should remain private for the DRF and who are most annoyed when they are rejected by "this is a private matter."
But of course would the same editors and journalists be willing to give up their own privacy to the same extent? :whistling:
 
Well, I am being serious.

That these meetings have not been made public does not mean they are secret. - Just that they are informal.
The DRF have informal meetings (i.e. meetings that are not listed in the official diary) all the time and with all sorts of people. Why not the military?

I do find your lack of confidence in Frederik as well as the officers somewhat worrying. The officers are professionals. They won't tell Frederik things he is not cleared to know (considering how high a clearance Frederik must have that can't be much, in regards to Danish affairs that is, NATO affairs is another matter) nor would they tell him anything they are under orders from the Minister not to tell him.
I will however find it very disturbing should a minister gag the military in regards to the DRF.

Even if they discuss defense politics, the security situation, materiel and procedures, why shouldn't they? It would I imagine be useful for Frederik to also learn about the opinions the officers, for career reasons perhaps, are reluctant to tell their political masters.
I bet Frederik has experienced at least one briefing along these lines:
"The Defense Chiefs and I are in perfect agreement in regards to the current defense policy. Right?!?" - "Yes, minister." - "You see, Your Royal Highness, there are no issues within the military."

I don't know about you, but I do not have full confidence in the politicians always presenting, shall we say, a full picture.

There's something delightfully ironic about your readiness to question the credibility of politicians while considering it "worrying" that I extend that scepticism to the military :cool:

Hold on, the meetings have very much been kept a secret to the MoD and as such the government. That's a focal point of the OLFI article. They have multiple sources confirming it independent of each other (and I'd argue Bisserup's subsequent comments confirm it as well). If you haven't read the OLFI article, I suggest you do instead of spreading misleading information.

Why not the military? Because you and I both know there's a considerable difference between meeting some of the highest-ranking officers in the military for briefings unauthorised by the government and meeting, say, people involved with organising Royal Run.

"It would I imagine be useful for Frederik to also learn about the opinions the officers, for career reasons perhaps, are reluctant to tell their political masters." That's just an absurd argument. There is no reason for a Crown Prince in a constitutional monarchy to be given information from senior military officers deliberately behind the government's back. And no, that's not the government trying to "gag the military", that's just how our constitutional monarchy works.

The problem is not that Frederik is meeting high-ranking officers (again, I think it's important to point out to readers not in the know that this concerns the very top of the Danish military). The problem is not that he's obtaining information (although I will reiterate that 1. Frederik is not obligated – nor does he need – to know everything that's going on within the defence; and 2. there are other, more appropriate means to obtain this information). The problem is that it's being done off the record. The problem is that the government hasn't been made aware of the kind of information he's been given. The problem is that the military's inner circle is not supposed to brief him without the government's knowledge. It's really not complicated. And it especially shouldn't be complicated to a Crown Prince that has studied political science.
 
Thanks to both for the insights. :flowers:
I really dont see the issue with these dinners. I mean do we expect disciplinary action against the military leaders? Nah.
For starters we dont know what the dinners were about.
It's not out of the realm that these could be friends catching up. Frederik does have the experience and background to have made friends in the military.
But even if military issues were discussed, Frederik has shown commitment and confidence in his role and duty to be in on dinners of this caliber.
But we dont know.

On another note. I dont see the issue with purchusing this home in Switzerland. Good investment. and is perfect for this adventure the family is on
 
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Good heavens.

Secret, informal, confidential, non-scheduled, non-published, without minutes meetings takes place all the time. - Not least among politicians. But also in many other walks of life for that matter.

Yes, I do have more confidence in the officers and Frederik, however delightful you may find it. Ministers come and go and sit on their posts for a few years, officers and Frederik stay for many years.
But that's just little me.

I do not find it absurd that officers should for example tell Frederik, in confidence, something their political masters do not want to hear. The military results in Afghanistan springs to mind...

I was under the impression that one of the cardinal points of a democracy was a considerable degree of openness about any sitting government's policy. But you seem determined to ensure that if Frederik does not ask through the proper channels, he should not be told (or ask) anything at all. Period! Presumably that applies to the press as well? And you and me for that matter? As you put it you nor I are in the need to be informed or obliged to be informed about anything outside the proper channels if we take this to the extreme.
- We really can't have people running around finding out things for themselves. Heaven forbid.

I wonder if the thought that the governments, unofficially, did know about these meetings, has crossed your mind. As long as no one officially know anything, everybody are happy.
Rules after all are there to be bend, interpreted, challenged, stretched, checked and circumnavigated. ;)
And it happens all the time out in the real world.

Anyway, we disagree on this matter. So be it. To me this is trivial, to you this seems to be a huge issue. Fine, you are entitled to be up in arms over this.
I don't know what you are gonna do about it though. Organize a one-woman demonstration in front of Amalienborg perhaps? Should he be admonished from the balcony of Christiansborg?
So far all I have heard from higher up the political ranks and from the government is... (The sound of crickets.)
Not to mention the general public. I arrived 1½ seconds later for work Friday, because of the huge public demonstrations against Frederik's transgression.
 
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:previous: I don't doubt they do. But secret, informal, confidential, non-scheduled, non-published, without minutes meetings between the military and the royal family shouldn't take place.

I think experience (recent cases within the military itself come to mind) has shown that seniority isn't always a guarantee for credibility ;)

You're comparing a royal's "right" (of which he has none) to receive briefings by some of the highest-ranking officers in the country that haven't been authorised by the government to... freedom of the press? That's not just extremes, that's straight up disrespectful to all the journalists that put their lives at risk to report.

First, I can only urge you to read the article whose raison d'être you're refuting. I think it would answer a lot of your questions and you wouldn't have to resort to making up far-fetched what-if scenarios to back up your point. As I've mentioned earlier, OLFI have multiple sources independent of each other confirming that it was agreed to keep the meetings a secret. Are you questioning their credibility? Furthermore, if we run with the suggestion that the sources aren't telling the ruth, if the MoD and/or the government had been informed of these meetings, why abstain from keeping minutes?

Yes, interchanging governments being notoriously afraid to face up to the DRF and a lack demonstrations means it can't be important :rolleyes: That sure is an interesting ethical standpoint, what a counterargument.
 
So do I.
There's also the fact that the Crown Prince, at the time (2009), had had an apanage for more than 20 years. He could have saved, invested and I think I have at some point read somewhere that there was also an inheritance after QI.

Ekstra Bladet is always "outraged" by something, especially with "big" events (OM's 80th) coming up. They always have a bigger "campaign" before or around the big DRF events. Or when the CPC or others are abroad or on holiday.

I trust all that are outraged show similar concern about QM (and PH) owning private property and J&M also owning a holiday home in France? No? And that all mentioned rent the places or part of them and have done for some time now?

Very good points. :flowers:
It's a good investment and not too over the top
 
:previous: I don't doubt they do. But secret, informal, confidential, non-scheduled, non-published, without minutes meetings between the military and the royal family shouldn't take place.

I think experience (recent cases within the military itself come to mind) has shown that seniority isn't always a guarantee for credibility ;)

You're comparing a royal's "right" (of which he has none) to receive briefings by some of the highest-ranking officers in the country that haven't been authorised by the government to... freedom of the press? That's not just extremes, that's straight up disrespectful to all the journalists that put their lives at risk to report.

First, I can only urge you to read the article whose raison d'être you're refuting. I think it would answer a lot of your questions and you wouldn't have to resort to making up far-fetched what-if scenarios to back up your point. As I've mentioned earlier, OLFI have multiple sources independent of each other confirming that it was agreed to keep the meetings a secret. Are you questioning their credibility? Furthermore, if we run with the suggestion that the sources aren't telling the ruth, if the MoD and/or the government had been informed of these meetings, why abstain from keeping minutes?

Yes, interchanging governments being notoriously afraid to face up to the DRF and a lack demonstrations means it can't be important :rolleyes: That sure is an interesting ethical standpoint, what a counterargument.

Not taking minutes is sort of the whole idea of an unofficial, informal meeting...

I shall read the report, when I get around to do it. Right now I have more important things to do than worrying about this, - our dog is right now training me to throw sticks (and pieces of sausages) and that takes up a lot of my time.

Alas, you are quite right in your criticism against senior officers, being an officer does not necessarily make you a good economist, good at business dealings or good at communications. That's a problem that has been around pretty much as long as there has been such a thing as an organized military. - And in every country.
I can well imagine the commander of Trelleborg (a Viking fortification around 950) bought 6.000 spears at way too high prices.
The connection between this and Frederik as pretty much the only one in the kingdom (according to you) having no rights to meet with, let alone learn anything, from government officials outside very rigid channels seem somewhat tenuous to me.

And don't be so dramatic. No journalists in DK are in any particular danger of losing their lives, let alone their jobs. But many if not most journalists here in DK do seem to have a overrated view of themselves. 👅

I think we can safely conclude that this discussion, no matter what, will lead to the same end: To me this is no big deal. To you it is.
How monumental I can only imagine.
 
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:previous: If the government had been notified of the meetings, surely they would stop being unofficial. This point is moot, however, as the government clearly hasn't either authorised the meetings or been made aware of them.

Wait, you're accusing me of making tenuous comparisons? :lol: I believe you were the one that brought up the subject of mistrust to begin with. And for the 100th time, please stop putting words in my mouth. I have never argued that Frederik shouldn't be allowed to meet these officers. But I have argued that the government should be made aware of the fact that these meetings are taking place and that minutes should be kept.

Well, you're (somehow) equating the freedom of the press to Frederik's (non-existent) right to receive briefings from high-ranking military officers without the sitting governments knowledge. Since we're talking the freedom of the press (which isn't exclusive to the Danish press), I don't think it's unreasonable to find the comparison to a royal not being able to follow fairly simple guidelines inappropriate.
 
Unofficial is outside the normal proper channels, you seemingly hold so dear, otherwise they wouldn't be unofficial, would they? And the topics of unofficial/informal/secret etc. meetings are usually not recorded.

I have stated my opinion and you have certainly made a point of saying my arguments lacks substance - fair enough. But surely I am within my rights to find some of your arguments tenuous? Which I do.
That's not an accusation, it's an opinion.

I was not aware I was putting words into your mouth.
The very core of your argument has been that Frederik does not have the right to meet informally/unofficial/secret with these officers. That is an argument you have repeatedly pointed out. Hence "according to you."
I do not agree. I believe Frederik has a fundamental right to legally acquire information outside the "proper channels." - The same right as you and I.
I firmly believe that limiting that right, for anyone, is a very dangerous move!

Yeees, the poor journalists... While many journalists worldwide are subjected to danger I don't think that applies to journalists here in DK...
My point was, and still is, that the right to gather information surely also applies to Frederik. - Not only to journalists.

I think this discussion is about to reach an endpoint.
It is very clear to me (that's my opinion) that we see things very differently on a basic level. Also that we view the importance of this in a very different perspective. To me this a trivial matter, while it is orders of magnitudes more important to you. (That is my impression. Not putting words into your mouth, it is important, nay, crucial for me to point that out.)
I also believe (not stating a fact) that it is abundantly clear by now where you and I stand, also to the handful of readers suffering from insomnia who still follow this debate. 👅
 
However, I have to follow up with this:
https://www.bt.dk/politik/udmelding-om-kronprins-frederik-i-folketingssalen

Without further comments from me though, as it doesn't change my viewpoint nor what I have argued.

Today the Minister of Defense, Trine Bramsen, was asked in a Q&A in the Parliament about the meetings Frederik has had with senior officers.

Trine Bramsen replied:
Forsvarschefen har til Forsvarsministeriet oplyst, at der er tale om sammenkomster under private former, hvorfor der ikke drøftes konkrete eller følsomme forhold for Forsvaret.
- Det bliver jeg nødt til at henholde mig til. Det er klart, at drøftelser og beslutninger om konkrete eller følsomme forhold om Forsvaret skal ske via de officielle kanaler


"The Defense Chief has to the Ministry of Defense informed that it is private gettogethers/meetings, and as such no specific or sensitive issues in relation to the Defense are discussed.
I have to take that ad notam/relate to that. It is clear/obvious that discussions and decisions about specific or sensitive issues about the Defense must take place via the official channels.

Bramsen siger, at hun ikke har nogen holdning til rådgivningen af kronprinsen.

- Men jeg har en holdning til, at drøftelser og beslutninger om konkrete og følsomme oplysninger, der vedrører Forsvaret, skal foregå via de officielle kanaler, siger hun.

Bramsen mener ikke, at hun i denne sag kan løfte pegefingeren. Hun henviser til svaret fra forsvarschefen.


Trine Bramsen says that she has no opinion on how the Crown Prince is adviced/to the advising of the Crown Prince.
"But I have an opinion in regards to discussions and decisions about specific and sensitive informations regarding the Defense must take place via the official channels."
Trine Bramsen does not believe she in this case can raise an (admonishing) finger. She refers to the reply from the Defense Chief. (That the meetings were private gatherings.)
 
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Unofficial is outside the normal proper channels, you seemingly hold so dear, otherwise they wouldn't be unofficial, would they? And the topics of unofficial/informal/secret etc. meetings are usually not recorded (...)

You said that my argument is that Frederik has "no rights to meet with, let alone learn anything, from government officials outside very rigid channels" which is incorrect. There are multiple ways for him to learn beyond either stringently receiving updates at councils of state or having secret meetings with inner circle of the military.

The freedom of the press that you find comparable to Frederik's "right" to hold secret meetings with the miitary is not exclusive to Danish journalists. Hence the impropriety of the comparison. On the subject of Frederik's "right to gather information": For the life of me, I can't see what right any royal should have to be given information that can't be run by the sitting minister? I'd venture that all the information he needs to be a good coming commander-in-chief of the Danish military is available to him through the proper channels.

You may call me pedantic or think I'm overreacting but in a constitutional monarchy there are just a handful of playing rules the royals need to abide by in respect of the representative democracy they're existing within and to avoid any doubt about their political neutrality.
 
Update on Verbier.

Frederik attended an event earlier today and here he was asked a few questions of interest to this thread.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/nu-taler-kronprinsen-om-skihytte-kritik-det-goer-indtryk

First about the children in Verbier:
"It's great to see that the children have settled really well in the school and speak English and a little French."

And asked what the children are most fond of, he replied:
"They are fond of... they think it's exciting to wear school uniforms. And to have new school-mates as well.
Of course it's fun when you get to go skiing a little afterwards."

Then he was asked into their house in Verbier and to that he responded:
"Obviously the Crown Princess and I have noticed the focus of the last weeks on our present life in Switzerland and it makes an impression, it does indeed."
 
Update on Verbier.

Frederik attended an event earlier today and here he was asked a few questions of interest to this thread.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/nu-taler-kronprinsen-om-skihytte-kritik-det-goer-indtryk

First about the children in Verbier:
"It's great to see that the children have settled really well in the school and speak English and a little French."

And asked what the children are most fond of, he replied:
"They are fond of... they think it's exciting to wear school uniforms. And to have new school-mates as well.
Of course it's fun when you get to go skiing a little afterwards."

Then he was asked into their house in Verbier and to that he responded:
"Obviously the Crown Princess and I have noticed the focus of the last weeks on our present life in Switzerland and it makes an impression, it does indeed."

Sad! The Crown Prince couple have worked tireless the last 15 years as the most hardworking royals in the DRF and now they take 12 weeks do to a thing for children and as a family and then Frederik & Mary has the feeling that we don’t think they deserve it. That breaks my heart. Its only the tabloid newspaper who thinks that, and clear the people indeed thinks they both deserve it and that it is a wonderful education for the royal children. I hope Frederik and Mary, and the kids, can enjoy the weeks. They deserve it!

Great to hear the children have settled really well in the school course :flowers:
 
:previous: It's great to hear an update from Frederik during his two events today.
Kids are quick to pick up new languages especially when they are immersed in it.
And yes, I am sure he and Mary noticed and anticipated the criticism. A calculated decision for their family time.
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-kritik-det-har-gjort-indtryk-paa-mary-og-mig

And thank you for the article from the Minister of defense and the Defense Chief. All is well
 
It has emerged that Frederik, prior to buying the house in Verbier, owned an apartment in Paris:
https://www.bt.dk/kendte/kronprinsen-ejede-stor-lejlighed-i-paris-nu-er-den-solgt

That has been confirmed by the court. The apartment has been sold for an undisclosed amount.

The story is in the magazine Her & Nu, but it doesn't seem to be online, so I assume it's in the magazine edition this week.
I wonder if anyone has bought the magazine?

- As we know Mary worked in Paris for a period prior to officially moving to DK. I wonder if the apartment was bought back then?
It could also have been bought when Frederik worked at the Danish embassy. But that was some ten years before Mary.
I imagine that even a very small apartment in Paris was a good investment.
 
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:previous: Selective memory is a bliss... :D

So what is more appropriate that posting this non-story:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/kronprinsparrets-skihytte-findes-stadig-paa-udlejningssite

It's about the house in Verbier owned by M&F. BT has found a reference to it on another site, that apparently just links to houses that can be rented (and obviously hasn't been updated) but BT angles the story as M&F may still being renting out the place even though it is no longer for rent by the agency. Like I said a non-story.

However, of interest to us, are the photos in the article showing the interior of the house, and as these are pictures M&F have okayed themselves I see no problems in posting them here:

So here is a bedroom. Whether it's the one M&F sleeps in I don't know:
https://bt.bmcdn.dk/media/cache/resolve/image_1240/image/143/1431156/23325867-seng-rfhfiuer.jpg

The living-room/dining-room:
https://bt.bmcdn.dk/media/cache/resolve/image_1240/image/143/1431154/23325865-hytte-34y247.jpg
 
Interesting. It seems that Paris is a favourite amongst the DRF with Joachim and Marie now being based there (I know that's because Joachim was posted there) - I don't blame them. Paris is my favourite city; too.
 
Yes. And hardly surprising.

They can vanish in the crowd.
Both Joachim and Frederik are fluent in French and know French culture, from the inside and they have relatives there, if not in Paris then certainly in France.
 
Interesting. It seems that Paris is a favourite amongst the DRF with Joachim and Marie now being based there (I know that's because Joachim was posted there) - I don't blame them. Paris is my favourite city; too.

I would say it is the favorite city among European royalty.
Several members of the Grand Ducal Family in Luxembourg live in Paris and the Grand Dukes have a home there.
Joachim and Marie from Denmark and their children currently reside there.
Farah Diba also lives in Paris.
I think that some members of the Monaco Royal Family also live in Paris.
 
:previous: Lovely picture!1


Happy Birthday to the Crown Princess!!
 
Looking lovely for a 48 year old. Happy Birthday Crown Princess. She and Frederik have done a wonderful raising a family and representing their country.
 
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