Future of the Belgian monarchy

[Marengo]

In many threads in the Belgian forum, a discussion is started about the future of the Belgian monarchy and about Belgium as one nation. To keep the other threads on-topic and the insights about the future of the monarchy together instead of scattered we decided to start this thread.

In the future posts in current events thread about this matter which seem to much OT will be redirected to this thread. We would like the members to show some moderation in the way they express their feelings, so please stay polite towards each other.

Another rule that we have is that the posts should not become to political. This is a royalty forum after all, so please keep that in mind to.

I am looking forward to an interesting discussion.

 

[Aurora810]

Yes, this topic finally got it's own thread. I inquired about such a thread being started over a month ago and it's finally here. I just think there is too many important issues going on that should and can be discussed in a nice civilized manner. I know there are many differeing opinions on these hot issues but I'm glad to see that there is now somewhere to learn about what is going on.

 

[Aurora810]

Since we have a new thread for this topic I'm not sure where to post my reply to Martha-Louise. Thanks for all the info Martha-Louise. It sounds like some of these issues are just hot topics as far as the media and politicians are concerned. That definitely happens in America as well.

Maybe this is just simply a media storm that the BRF will weather. I also have to say the actions of the BRF so far concerning some of the issues don't seem to be that of an RF that is too worried. It will be interesting in 6 months to a year if opinions change. Belgium is such a tiny country it seems so odd to think of it seperating.

 

[Henri M.]

Belgium is such a tiny country it seems so odd to think of it seperating.

There is a widespread belief in Flanders, that Wallonia (the French speaking part of Belgium) is a stronghold of the Parti Socialiste which is subsidized by the Dutch-speaking northern half of the country. The Belgian Constitution stipulates that any major decision in Belgium requires approval in both Flanders and Wallonia. This has doomed the country to inertia and is increasingly frustrating the Flemings. Flanders, with its strong freemarket culture, wants to lower taxes and reform social security. But Wallonia blocks many reforms. Among the frustrated Flemings there is a call for secession from Belgium.

The Parti Socialiste, although of no importance in Flanders, has become the most influential party in Belgian politics. Since it is the largest party in Wallonia it can obstruct any policy it objects to. As no government in Belgium is formed without the approval of a majority in both Flanders and Wallonia, the Socialists are ensured of an permanent reign.

Wallonian politicians are enraged by the growing Flemish wish for independence: it would mean that their days are over because redistribution policies only last as long as there is (Flemish) money available to redistribute.

Why is King Albert more popular in Wallonia than in Flanders? Not because the Wallonians are so pro-monarchy. King Albert symbolizes Belgium. Wallonia has all the interest in keeping Flanders, the chicken with the golden egg, aboard inside Belgium. They see the defence of the monarchy as a defence of the Belgian state and, therefore, keeping Flanders in Belgium.

This is exactly why King Albert is less popular in Flanders: he is seen as the guy which keeps Belgium together, with other words: which is a blockade on the way to Flemish self-deployment and growing independence.

So it really has nothing to do with Princess Mathilde being 'so perfect', 'so angelic', 'so beautiful'. Sadly in many threads the comments are only on looks and couture and not on the real thing. She can be as perfect, angelic and beautiful as she wants: when there is no Belgium anymore, there is also no Belgian monarchy. That is obvious.

 

[martha-louise]

I understand Aurora810 when she says it seems odd to seperate such tiny country, she is American. Belgium seems so small on the map. eg. Greater Londen has 10 million inhabitants of al kinds of races, whole of Belgium counts 10 million inhabitans. It's a bizarre matter of scale.

But it is true as Henri M. says, there is a line in the middle, and when you cross it, you feel like you are in an other country.
It is already odd to notice that in our very tiny country (30,528 km²) we have 3 governments (Flemish, Walloon, Federal) and 3 districts (Brussels, Walloon, Flemish) and 4 communities (French, Flemish, bilangual brussels and German) What an administration! A separation can't be much more odd, don't you think?
As a united state, we couldn't agree on many topics, because of the differences. We solved it, not by guns, but by the almost mythical "Belgian Concensus".

 

[martha-louise]

In the previous thread Henri M. made the remark that not all seperations have to be violent, thanks for your information, it is an interesting point.
IMO if Belgium splits up, it won't be by force, but in a peacefull way, Belgians are rather used to talk and talk it over. (eg. in our tough discussions between communities)

 

[martha-louise]

This is exactly why King Albert is less popular in Flanders: he is seen as the guy which keeps Belgium together, with other words: which is a blockade on the way to Flemish self-deployment and growing independence.

So it really has nothing to do with Princess Mathilde being 'so perfect', 'so angelic', 'so beautiful'. Sadly in many threads the comments are only on looks and couture and not on the real thing. She can be as perfect, angelic and beautiful as she wants: when there is no Belgium anymore, there is also no Belgian monarchy. That is obvious.

I wouldn't say King Albert is less popular, he is seen as a easygoing, rather cool King, who signs every law. The Flemish people are far more rude against his children. King Albert is still more untouchable 'no bad word for the good old man'. Separatists think forward towards the future, they want to block prince Philippe, that's far more interesting than blocking King Albert. I have doubts wether Philippe will make it to become king...

I don't agree with your remark about the glorifications of Mathilde of the members. That's part of the game! Monarchy isn't alone about politics, the real thing you call it, but also about the glamour and glitter that makes ordinary people say 'aaaah'. Today the impact of media and fans-attention can also be political. If no-one would be there to wave at the royals, to give flowers, to admire the royal family, there wouldn't be a monarchy either. Monarchy lives by the grace of his people, no?
(and I think you are a man among many women on the board, that could be an explanation too )

 

[flcty]

Just a question:
If [only if, guys] Flanders does break away would they have a constitutional monarchy or will they be a republic?

 

[Henri M.]

Just a question:
If [only if, guys] Flanders does break away would they have a constitutional monarchy or will they be a republic?

Republic Flanders.
What else?

Other options are:

1) the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg re-unite in the Kingdom of the United Netherlands (becoming one of the world's top-10 economies)
2) Belgium remains as an individual state
3) Flanders joins the Netherlands and Wallonia joins France

 

[Aurora810]

This is all great information and I was wondering the same thing about what would happen if the country does break. It seems like to join another country would mean a lot more serious discussions and debate. Option 1 from Henri's post seems really odd to me just because that means that Luxembourg's dukes go bye bye. Why would Luxembourg become involved in the near future at least? And would Flanders want to get away from Belgium just to turn around and join the Netherlands?

Sorry maybe it's b/c I'm an American which I apologize for, I'm really trying to understand as best I can. But it just seems that there are many unbelievably complicated issues that need to be dealt with before option 1 or 3 could ever happen. It seems more likely that the country would simply split in two. I mean Belgium is tiny but Europe has other tiny countries as well so maybe it's not that odd for it to just separate.

I tend to agree that some of the worry might be about Philippe becoming King someday.

 

[Henri M.]

Why would Luxembourg become involved in the near future at least?

And would Flanders want to get away from Belgium just to turn around and join the Netherlands?

The Grand Dukes of Luxembourg are a spin-off from Netherlands royal family. When King Willem III of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg died in 1890, he had only one daughter, Princess Wilhelmina (grandmother of Queen Beatrix).

Princess Wilhelmina became Queen of the Netherlands and could have become Grand Duchess of Luxembourg as well but her father decided not to change but to respect the old Nassau Family Treaty which says that male descendants have preference to the throne of Luxembourg. Therefore Luxembourg went to a collateral branch of the House of Nassau, which still reigns today.

Flanders could unite with the Netherlands because of the cultural, linguïstic and historical ties which binds them with the Northern neighbours ánd to merge into a bigger unity.

As the Orange-Nassaus are not only already for 603 years in the Low Countries and are ruling in by far the biggest country (qua population and economy) of the three, they could deliver the Sovereign.

The Luxembourg and Belgian royal families could become non-reigning families, remaining in their residences and become part of the 'Salon Bleu', the dozen highest Peers in the United Netherlands:

- The Prince(ss) of Orange
- The Duke of Brabant, Duke of Saxen-Coburg-Gotha
- The Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Duke of Nassau
- The Prince de Bourbon de Parme, Duke of Parma
- The Prince de Ligne
- The Prince de Mérode
- The Prince de Chimay et de Caraman
- The Prince de Lobkowicz
- The Prince d'Arenberg
- The Duke de Croÿ-Solre
- The Duke de Looz-Corswarem
- The Duke d'Ursel

 

[Aurora810]

Oh, I see. Alright when you put it like that I can see how that might happen. Gee, another question just popped into my mind. Would there be any sort of competition among other countries in the area to join with a separated Belgium, for example France? Oh darn am I showing my American roots again, well we love to compete in many different forms.

I guess we'll just all have to wait and watch as some of this unfolds in the next few months.

 

[Warren]

I think Henri is already campaigning for the aggrandisement of the territories of the House of Orange, and the mediatisation of the displaced princes, including their Nassau cousins. So much for the Family Pact of 1783.

Alternatively, with a break-up of the Belgian state, we could go back even earlier and reinstitute the Duchy of Burgundy, with a Habsburg on the throne.
Now there's a job for Lorenz and Amedeo!

 

[Henri M.]

I think Henri is already campaigning for the aggrandisement of the territories of the House of Orange, and the mediatisation of the displaced princes, including their Nassau cousins. So much for the Family Pact of 1783.

Alternatively, with a break-up of the Belgian state, we could go back even earlier and reinstitute the Duchy of Burgundy, with a Habsburg on the throne.
Now there's a job for Lorenz and Amedeo!

I agree that the Habsburgers could also come back as Dukes of Burgundy but their starting point is poor as right NOW they do not possess any of the thrones.

And then with regard to the three reigning families. It is very unlikely that such a re-union would happen, but you never know when Belgium will really split up, how the three Benelux-states would react.

The Duke of Brabant or the Grand Duke of Luxembourg are not dethroned. They can remain Duke of Brabant or Grand Duke of Luxembourg. See the example of the German Reich with an emperor and many royal families in the various German states.

 

[Warren]

The Duke of Brabant or the Grand Duke of Luxembourg are not dethroned. They can remain Duke of Brabant or Grand Duke of Luxembourg. See the example of the German Reich with an emperor and many royal families in the various German states.

So I assume in this scenario the Dutch Monarch becomes Emperor/Empress of the new reich and the Orange-Nassau's raise themselves to Imperial rank? A Kingdom and an Empire!
HIM and HI&RH has a nice ring to it, eh Henri?

 

[Henri M.]

So I assume in this scenario the Dutch Monarch becomes Emperor/Empress of the new reich and the Orange-Nassau's raise themselves to Imperial rank? A Kingdom and an Empire!
HIM and HI&RH has a nice ring to it, eh Henri?

LOL,
No, they can remain as they are, or even become a princely family again with delivering the Stadtholder, as in the times of the Republic of the United Provinces.

 

[flcty]

Alternatively, with a break-up of the Belgian state, we could go back even earlier and reinstitute the Duchy of Burgundy, with a Habsburg on the throne.
Now there's a job for Lorenz and Amedeo!

Indeed . Amedeo, pardon my teen girl antics, would make a pretty handsome and smart monarch, a pretty good person/Hasburg to claim a throne/regain a throne through. Re-establish the good name of the Hasburg's. But then again would Lorenz and Amedeo need to pursuade Otto/Carl/Georg to give up their rights; make alliances in the hasburg family and pressure otto/carl/georg to renounce their rights, denounce Carl's marriage to Francesca as morgantic. Please PM me about the history of the Duchy of Burgendy, I'm really intrested.

 

[SASSY]

Exactly how serious is the debate in Belgium?

 

[princess olga]

I have doubts wether Philippe will make it to become king...

Oh my gosh, you serious? Are you pretty much representing the Flemish consensus on this one? (I'm assuming here you're Flemish, maybe wrongly?)

 

[Aurora810]

Exactly how serious is the debate in Belgium?

Other posters can certainly weigh in on the seriousness of this debate. Apparently there will be some politically related reform talks this summer. Some people think it's just a political idea and not widely supported yet about Belgium separating. But who knows all we can do is wait and watch at this point...oh and speculate, which has been interesting to read about. I have to say the royal family is certainly not acting worried at all in recent months, but that's just my opinion and just what I've noticed.

Before this thread was started we were discussing this topic in the Royal Family of Belgium's Current Events 6 thread. So if you want you can read up on things a little in that thread.

 

[princess olga]

Alternatively, with a break-up of the Belgian state, we could go back even earlier and reinstitute the Duchy of Burgundy, with a Habsburg on the throne.
Now there's a job for Lorenz and Amedeo!

Now there's a scenario that sounds intriguing! One suggestion for their new flag's slogan could be:

"Burgundy Uber Alles!"

Seriously though, if we were to judge future royals by looks alone, Amedeo would easily win this one hands down!!

 

[princess olga]

I should add though that I hope Belgium will stay the way it is. It's a lovely country that has inspired such Dutch rock groups as The Goede Doel to write songs like "Belgie", that wax lyrical about the place! And not without reason: it's got amazing history and great cities I'd recommend anyone to visit, i.e. gorgeous, unique, epic Brugge and Gent, cool and hip Antwerp, and Paris-the-way-it-was-in-the-eighties-Brussels.

 

[ysbel]

I should add though that I hope Belgium will stay the way it is. It's a lovely country that has inspired such Dutch rock groups as The Goede Doel to write songs like "Belgie", that wax lyrical about the place! And not without reason: it's got amazing history and great cities I'd recommend anyone to visit, i.e. gorgeous, unique, epic Brugge and Gent, cool and hip Antwerp, and Paris-the-way-it-was-in-the-eighties-Brussels.

...and the mussels and the French fries with Bearnaise sauce are to die for

 

[martha-louise]

Oh my gosh, you serious? Are you pretty much representing the Flemish consensus on this one? (I'm assuming here you're Flemish, maybe wrongly?)

Well I'm a Belgian, I've roots in Flanders, but I live in Wallonia, I work in Brussels
I surely want Philippe to become king! But when I listen to and read the media about him, when I hear people talk about him, I've doubts if he will have the support of the Belgian people when he will become king...
It's just not a person that people find sympathetic or really competent. He's unfortunately not the person that unites Flemings and Walloons, his behaviour has the opposite result...

I don't know if I'm in favor for Astrid to be queen instead of Philippe. I mean Philippe will become king, but maybe he will have to step aside after a fiew weeks, 'cause the people won't accept him..., and leave Astrid to the throne.

Thàt's a whole lot of speculation from my side. But speculation about a crisis to come makes the crisis less hard to cope with, 'cause one has got used to the idea, I think.

 

[Henri M.]

Exactly how serious is the debate in Belgium?

It is serious.

There will be General Elections in the coming months and then another round of State Reforms. Every State Reform has contributed to the crumbling down of 'Belgium' in favour of Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels.

The main party, the Christian-Democrats have already stated that they are not willing to discuss the role of the King. But all other parties want to diminish any political influence or even abolish it (Flemish Interest, the second largest party). And the Christian-Democrats needs to find coalition-partners, so they can not block the discussion.

Note that the discussion does not need to ba about the King. Any minimalization of the national state does intrinsically also minimize the role of the King. That is obvious.

 

[flcty]

Apparantly guys...[if this hasn't been reported]...
King not to be demoted
BRUSSELS – Flemish minister-president Yves Leterme (CD&V) talked to Le Soir on Thursday. He said in the interview that he has no desire to limit the role of the monarchy.
On 2 May the houses of Parliament will be dissolved with a declaration of revision to the constitution. The majority parties will decide by the end of March which articles "are in need of revision."
The Flemish Christian Democrats (CD&V) is going to itself submit a proposal for declaring a constitutional revision and will vote for its proposal, Yves Leterme said on Thursday. In the same breath he added that the CD&V does not have any plans to tamper with the role of the monarchy at this point...
...denied that this decision was influenced by the fact that a large part of his party's following is pro-monarchy. He said he just didn't think such a move would benefit efficiency in any way at this point. He does think a debate on revising the royal endowment would be a good idea, as long as the discussion does not get out of hand.
After several incidents recently, including unfortunate statements from Prince Philip, who wanted to deny several journalists access to the royal palace, some have been calling for the monarch to be demoted to a purely ceremonial role after the federal elections on 10 June.
"If Prince Philip does not immediately realise that the constitutional monarchy in this country does not work that way, we will be closer to a discussion on a ceremonial role for the king," Socialist party SP.A leader Johan Vande Lanotte said at the time. The Flemish nationalists N-VA, ally of the CD& V, has also wanted the monarchy's powers diminished for some time now.
Without explicitly announcing his candidacy, Yves Leterme said he would "of course" like to be prime minister, because the reform of the state is being decided on the federal level, he said.
Leterme insisted that state reform is inevitable for the Walloon region. He said Bergen was a "capital of unemployment." "26 percent unemployment is a catastrophe for people."
King not to be demoted, Belgian News, Belgium, Expatica
I guess the media debarcle is still fresh in the minds of many belgian politicians. Do they believe that Prince Phillipe is a power hungry monster or something ["If Prince Philip does not immediately realise that the constitutional monarchy..."]...?

 

[Aurora810]

Very interesting info, flctylu!

I think Philippe will realize his role and I think the royal family will continue being a stable part of Belgium or at least that's my hope.

 

[princess olga]

...and the mussels and the French fries with Bearnaise sauce are to die for

Ha!Yes, how could I forget the most important thing about Belgium? The great cuisine..

 

[princess olga]

Well I'm a Belgian, I've roots in Flanders, but I live in Wallonia, I work in Brussels
I surely want Philippe to become king! But when I listen to and read the media about him, when I hear people talk about him, I've doubts if he will have the support of the Belgian people when he will become king...
It's just not a person that people find sympathetic or really competent. He's unfortunately not the person that unites Flemings and Walloons, his behaviour has the opposite result...

I don't understqand that, why do people think so little of him, Philippe? I mean, in the Netherlands people didn't think too much of Willem Alexander either, and I think Maxima helped create some goodwill towards him there..that and he himself has done his best over the past years to show he has some vision, that he cares where his country's headed..

Is that not the case re. Philippe? His wife seems lovely, doesn't that help? What has he done to earn so little respect? Perhaps he's done too little? But then, Fred of Denmark is one lazy prince, according to critics, yet the Danes seem fine with him and the way he is..

 

[princess olga]

Apparantly guys...[if this hasn't been reported]...
King not to be demoted
BRUSSELS – Flemish minister-president Yves Leterme (CD&V) talked to Le Soir on Thursday. He said in the interview that he has no desire to limit the role of the monarchy.
After several incidents recently, including unfortunate statements from Prince Philip, who wanted to deny several journalists access to the royal palace, some have been calling for the monarch to be demoted to a purely ceremonial role after the federal elections on 10 June.

Well I suppose that's part of the answer to my question above..perhaps Philippe's just not very diplomatic?