Female Succession and Related Issues

[Somebody]

Welcome to this thread regarding
Female Succession and Related Issues

Please take a look at the
TRF Community Rules



· It's a copyright violation to post translations of entire articles, so no more than 20% of an article text should be posted, along with the link to the original article.

· Only pictures that you have written permission to share can be posted here. You can post links to any pictures.

· We expect our members to treat each other, and the royals and persons in these threads, with respect.

· The Report Post button is for reporting inappropriate content in a post if no moderators or administrators are online.

· Threads should remain on topic. Posts which are irrelevant or disruptive will be deleted or moved by one of the moderators.

***​

 

[Toledo]

Wow, I've never been the first one in a new thread! Thanks @Somebody

Re female succession rules, my opinion is for the limited amount of European monarchies to survive they need to keep up with the times. From what I recall growing up in very chauvinistic Franco Spain in the 1960s, a lot of pressure was put on Juan Carlos for a male heir to a point his rival cousin married into the Franco family as the plan B to keep the surname Borbon going.

We are in 2025, a surname is just a bunch of letters and when a female heir marries she should be in charge of keeping her name and transferring it to her son or daughter to keep traditional dynasty name to stay. Therefore the first born, girl or boy, should inherit as long as they are in good health and prepared for the role as adults.

Now in other non-European countries, the culture has to be respected and not imposed Western ideas unless the people in these countries are willing to accept them as theirs. Places like Japan and the Middle East had their own set of rules and my very progressive western mind has no right to impose my ideas on them anymore than a male heir rule country can tell an European monarchy to go Salic law in this era.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Indeed, and the three houses are clearly quite close, both literally and figuratively. That, and the near-consistency with which European female monarchs have passed on their family names and titles to their children over the last few centuries, are why I would - normally - be fairly certain Elisabeth’s legitimate children will be Duchesses and Dukes of Saxony, Princess/Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (the Belgian royals omit the “and” for some reason).

However… King Philippe is good friends with Prince Hubertus of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, head of the senior, German branch of the Saxe-Coburgs. (Philippe was the godfather and namesake of Hubertus’s son Philipp.) The late father of Hubertus signed a letter denouncing a female-line succession in another branch of the Saxon family, and Hubertus appears to be likeminded (in the notice he published of his father’s death, he even accorded his younger brother precedence over his older sister).

If Philippe knew that his good friend Hubertus would be angry at seeing a woman pass on their family’s titles, would that stop him from having his daughter’s children bear the Saxon titles?

This was not an issue in the Netherlands and Luxembourg cases: The Dutch royal house was already on poor terms with the other branches of the house of Orange, and the Dutch and Luxembourgian ruling houses were the last surviving branches of the house of Nassau.

Do you think Belgium will follow the Netherlands and Luxembourg when it comes to the title of a male consort? They might not because unlike the Netherlands and Luxembourg Belgium has allowed non-heir princesses to share their titles with their spouses and children as long as the princesses are daughters of an heir or monarch. Titles for spouses also aren’t automatic in Belgium which they are for women married to men and husbands of female heirs/monarchs in the Netherlands and Luxembourg. If they were to go off of the Netherlands or Luxembourg I think they would follow Luxembourg since the Dutch system is quite unique.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If Philippe knew that his good friend Hubertus would be angry at seeing a woman pass on their family’s titles, would that stop him from having his daughter’s children bear the Saxon titles?

This was not an issue in the Netherlands and Luxembourg cases: The Dutch royal house was already on poor terms with the other branches of the house of Orange, and the Dutch and Luxembourgian ruling houses were the last surviving branches of the house of Nassau.

I should have added that the other branches of the house of Orange also claimed the Orange title through female lines, so it would have been hypocritical if they objected to the Orange-Nassau female-line title inheritance (although hypocrisy is not exactly unheard of when it comes to title disputes…).

 

[meeralakshmi]

I should have added that the other branches of the house of Orange also claimed the Orange title through female lines

Which ones?

Though that may be more appropriate for the Dutch titles thread.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Do you think Belgium will follow the Netherlands and Luxembourg when it comes to the title of a male consort? They might not because unlike the Netherlands and Luxembourg Belgium has allowed non-heir princesses to share their titles with their spouses and children as long as the princesses are daughters of an heir or monarch.

The then prime minister Wim Kok predicted “Prince Consort” for a reigning queen’s husband when Belgium introduced equal primogeniture in 1991. Thus, that would be my tentative guess.

As of now, the gender-equal treatment of Lorenz and Claire remains the exception rather than the rule in the royal family. Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein and Léa Wolman are styled as Princesses by courtesy, but William Isvy, Salvador Moncada and Jean-Paul Gourgues are not styled as Princes.

Titles for spouses also aren’t automatic in Belgium which they are for women married to men and husbands of female heirs/monarchs in the Netherlands and Luxembourg. If they were to go off of the Netherlands or Luxembourg I think they would follow Luxembourg since the Dutch system is quite unique.

For non-heir royals, and for non-royal nobility, the current system is essentially the same in Belgium and the Netherlands, except that the monarchs and governments have made slightly different decisions about which royal consorts to grant legal titles to.

• Irrespective of gender, people do not automatically gain any legal title or nobiliary status by marriage.
  
  
• Women who marry titled men automatically gain a courtesy title, normally the feminine form of their husband’s title. A courtesy title has no legal standing but is socially accepted. It is recognized by royal courts and nobiliary associations and may even be used for some government functions.
  
  
• Men who marry titled women, and same-sex spouses, do not receive courtesy titles.
  
  
• Irrespective of gender, people who marry a royal prince or princess may be vested with a legal title by a Royal Decree. This is not automatic and must be decided by the monarch and government.

 

[meeralakshmi]

The then prime minister Wim Kok predicted “Prince Consort” for a reigning queen’s husband when Belgium introduced equal primogeniture in 1991. Thus, that would be my tentative guess.

As of now, the gender-equal treatment of Lorenz and Claire remains the exception rather than the rule in the royal family. Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein and Léa Wolman are styled as Princesses by courtesy, but William Isvy, Salvador Moncada and Jean-Paul Gourgues are not styled as Princes.

I think whether or not the husband is styled a prince depends on whether or not the princess’ children will be styled princes/princesses of Belgium. Astrid’s children are princes/princesses of Belgium while the children of Marie-Esméralda and Maria Laura are not (and husbands and children of monarchs’ daughters being princes/princesses of Belgium wasn’t introduced until Albert’s children’s generation). Therefore it is likely that Eléonore’s spouse will be a prince/princess of Belgium because her children will be. In 1991 they suggested prince consort as a title based on what is used in the Netherlands, they could copy the Netherlands and style Elisabeth’s husband HRH/HM The Prince of the Belgians or explicitly style him HRH/HM The Prince Consort of the Belgians like in Luxembourg. However they could also decide that if Astrid and Eléonore’s spouses get to share their titles Elisabeth’s should as well. If they don’t want to make Elisabeth’s husband king consort they could grant him a personal peerage to set him apart from the other princes before his wife ascends the throne and after she dies or abdicates (the style of HM would also do so after Elisabeth’s death or abdication).

 

[meeralakshmi]

A lot of them.

The principality of Orange passed to female monarchs or through female lines numerous times before reaching the Nassaus. Princess Tiburge reigned over Orange in the late 12th century, and her daughter Tiburge’s son Guillaume of Baux succeeded as Prince of Orange. Their descendant Marie of Baux reigned as Princess of Orange from 1393 to 1417, and while Marie’s son was her heir, she named her daughter Alix of Chalon as the spare in her testament. Marie’s descendant Philibert of Chalon reigned as Prince of Orange from 1502 to 1530 and was succeeded by his sister Claude’s son René of Chalon.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/provvaldi.htm#_Toc97476355

René of Chalon, Prince of Orange, never married, and he appointed his paternal cousin Guillaume of Nassau (“William the Silent”) to succeed him as reigning Prince of Orange. This broke the direct prince(ss)ly line and created the house of Orange-Nassau.

The Dukes of Longueville and other French nobles who descended from Alix of Chalon (the daughter of Princess Marie, mentioned above) disputed the Nassaus’ succession to Orange and asserted their claim to the Principality of Orange by right of their descent from Lady Alix.

Meanwhile, King William III of Great Britain and Ireland, reigning Prince of Orange, died childless. He appointed his paternal aunt Princess Albertine-Agnes of Orange’s son, Count Johan Willem Friso of Nassau (who was also distantly related to him in male line), to succeed him as Prince of Orange. Johan Willem Friso is the progenitor of the present-day Royal House of the Netherlands.

However, Princess Albertine-Agnes was not the eldest daughter of the Orange-Nassau family. Her older sister, Princess Louise-Henriette of Orange, had descendants who became the royal family of Prussia. Thus, the Prussian kings disputed the succession and laid claim to the Principality of Orange by right of their descent from Princess Louise-Henriette.

(All the claims were unsuccessful because the King of France conquered the Principality of Orange upon William III’s death, and it remains a part of France to this day.)

The Rank/Title of Prince in France

What titles did their husbands hold? Husbands holding titles jure uxoris was ironically more common back then than it is now, from looking at the ancestry of Henry VIII’s wives I learned that husbands of women who held titles now associated with the Belgian royal family held those titles jure uxoris. Will mention that in the Belgian titles thread.