Daniel's Future: Discussion (his role, title, orders, pressure etc.)

[HRHofNothing]

Daniel's Title

I had questions about Daniel's Duke of Vastergotland title. I believe that he does not hold the title in his own right he just has it because he is Victoria's husband right? Thus, say if Victoria and Daniel were to divorce and he to remarry his new wife would not be the Duchess of Vastergotland?

What happens in the case Victoria dies before she accedes the throne? As her widower would he still be styled HRH The Duke of Vastergotland? In this situation could a new wife become HRH The Duchess of Vastergotland?

What happens when if Victoria becomes Queen and he is not granted any other titles? Since The Duchess of Vastergotland title no longer exsists will he simply be Prince Daniel

 

[MRSJ]

I had questions about Daniel's Duke of Vastergotland title. I believe that he does not hold the title in his own right he just has it because he is Victoria's husband right? Thus, say if Victoria and Daniel were to divorce and he to remarry his new wife would not be the Duchess of Vastergotland?

What happens in the case Victoria dies before she accedes the throne? As her widower would he still be styled HRH The Duke of Vastergotland? In this situation could a new wife become HRH The Duchess of Vastergotland?

What happens when if Victoria becomes Queen and he is not granted any other titles? Since The Duchess of Vastergotland title no longer exsists will he simply be Prince Daniel

Others might be able to answer better but my belief is if they were to divorce he would forfeit the title (since she is the Duchess and he is only Duke due to their marriage) or be given something less a la Alexandera in Denmark who is now a Countess (especially were his child to be future monoarch). Though I suppose he could keep it a la Sarah, Duchess of York.....if Sarah remarries she'd lose the DoY so thus probably would Daniel....

Were Victoria to die my guess he would still keep title (again especially if they've had children) not sure about future spouses....but my guess would be no he couldn't pass it to his (new) wife and would lose it if he remarried

Once she is Queen I believe he'll remain a Duke a la Queen Elizabeth and the Duke of Endinburgh- even as Queen Victoria would still be Duchess of Vastergotland she would just use high title....

Again, these are guess based on other Royal families....not sure how Swedish Royal Family do it but good question

 

[Iva]

I had questions about Daniel's Duke of Vastergotland title. I believe that he does not hold the title in his own right he just has it because he is Victoria's husband right? Thus, say if Victoria and Daniel were to divorce and he to remarry his new wife would not be the Duchess of Vastergotland?

Yes, he does not hold the title in his own right, but was granted to use his wife's title. If they divorce I think he'll lose it.

What happens in the case Victoria dies before she accedes the throne? As her widower would he still be styled HRH The Duke of Vastergotland? In this situation could a new wife become HRH The Duchess of Vastergotland?

Based on the case of Bertil and Lilian, where she's still styled HRH Princess Lilian, Duchess of Halland I think it would be the same for Daniel. I don't think his new wife could use the title.

What happens when if Victoria becomes Queen and he is not granted any other titles? Since The Duchess of Vastergotland title no longer exsists will he simply be Prince Daniel

No, he'll still be HRH Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland, nothing changes for him, if he's not given any more titles.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

HRHofNothing- The Duchess of Vastergotland title stil exists it has only merged with the crown. In a way, Victoria would stillbe the Duchess of Vastergotland, but since she will be the Queen, it outranks any other titles.

 

[An Ard Ri]

A recent Divorce example is the Infanta Elena of Spain,Duchess of Lugo,the Dukedom was granted in Elena for life.

Her husband Don Jaime de Marichalar was styled His Excellency The Duke of Lugo during their marriage.When they divorced in 2009 Jaime de Marichalar was no longer permitted to use his former wife's ducal title, and the styles Grandee of Spain and Excellency and he is no longer considered to be an official member of the Spanish Royal Family.

As the son of a Spanish Count he is still styled Don Jaime de Marichalar .

 

[DukeOfAster]

Perfectly said MRSJ.

 

[DukeOfAster]

Is he a prince???

I was talking in another thread about the Duchess of Cambridge who is not a Princess she is HRH, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge so is Daniel HRH, Daniel, Duke of V. or is he HRH, Prince Daniel, Duke of V. I know it is probly different in Sweden then in England but I was just interested to know. Thanks

 

[MRSJ]

I was talking in another thread about the Duchess of Cambridge who is not a Princess she is HRH, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge so is Daniel HRH, Daniel, Duke of V. or is he HRH, Prince Daniel, Duke of V. I know it is probly different in Sweden then in England but I was just interested to know. Thanks

He is Prince Daniel Duke of V I believe. So either husband can take wides rank in Sweden or the King made him a prince....I thought on the official website he is listed as Prince Daniel bur maybe I'm wrong....

 

[LadyFinn]

I was talking in another thread about the Duchess of Cambridge who is not a Princess she is HRH, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge so is Daniel HRH, Daniel, Duke of V. or is he HRH, Prince Daniel, Duke of V. I know it is probly different in Sweden then in England but I was just interested to know. Thanks

Daniel is
H.R.H. Prince Daniel;
Olof Daniel, Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland.
H.R.H. Prince Daniel - Sveriges Kungahus

 

[janb]

He is Prince Daniel Duke of V I believe. So either husband can take wides rank in Sweden or the King made him a prince....I thought on the official website he is listed as Prince Daniel bur maybe I'm wrong....

Yes, the King made him one. He wouldn't have become one under the older rules that was made when women couldn't inherit the throne. But I guess the reasoining is sound, if women can inherit the crown as well as men can, men must be able to get a title by marriage as well women do.

 

[dilsnub]

if your entire family was titled but your grandmother and mother both married untitled men what claim would you have if any to a title or to anything else?

 

[Kataryn]

Daniel is
H.R.H. Prince Daniel;
Olof Daniel, Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland.
H.R.H. Prince Daniel - Sveriges Kungahus

I think it's important that his full name is now Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte, Prince of Sweden and duke of Västergotland. He is the only one of the family on the Swedish edition of the Royal webpage who is name with a family name. So I think the "westling bernadotte" part is important.

Im not sure about Swedish family laws but normally one can decide between keeping the family name as it was decided on at marriage or returning to the former family name.

So probably Daniel could stay being Daniel Westling Bernadotte, Prince of Sweden after a divorce just like Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor, Duchess of York kept Andrew's name but I doubt he would do it. He doesn't strike me as a man who would stick to a Royal name when he is not longer married to the Princess. IMHO he would revert to Mr. Daniel Westling.

In case of his becoming a widower I guess he would be granted his own title in case he wanted to remarry. Especiall if his child is the new Crown Prince/Princess while the current king is still alive.

I read they have a pre-nup, surely these questions have been decided before they signed the contract and became a married couple.

 

[Kataryn]

if your entire family was titled but your grandmother and mother both married untitled men what claim would you have if any to a title or to anything else?

Depends on the country, I guess. Here in Germany, where the former titles are just part of the name, on marriage the couple could decide to keep the noble name of the wife but I read it is not considered good style. But it was done in order to transfer/save the noble name to the next male generation when no male heir was in the current generation.

 

[dilsnub]

I just know in royal bloodlines there are a lot of members excluded so much because they are not the son of the son of the son.... instead of simply being a member of the family. Being the great grandchild of a king would mean a lot if you were in the direct male line, you'd be someone, but if it were through your mothers mother than you would be as common as the wind.

 

[Kataryn]

I just know in royal bloodlines there are a lot of members excluded so much because they are not the son of the son of the son.... instead of simply being a member of the family. Being the great grandchild of a king would mean a lot if you were in the direct male line, you'd be someone, but if it were through your mothers mother than you would be as common as the wind.

Depends on who the king's daughter and her daughter married. This is the reason why so many houses were (and some still are) such sticklers for "equal" marriages - the wanted to have a great enough supply of bridesgrooms for their daughters, not necessarily brides for their sons....

They chamged the system in the Netherlands, where all children of the queen's sisters are Prince/Princess of Oranje-Nassau and their daughters are Countesses of Oranje-Nassau.

 

[dilsnub]

In my own experience though some of them (us) are stuck at the bottom of the peerage. If somewhere down the line your relative didn't marry royal.... youre pretty much out.

 

[Iva]

I think it's important that his full name is now Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte, Prince of Sweden and duke of Västergotland. He is the only one of the family on the Swedish edition of the Royal webpage who is name with a family name. So I think the "westling bernadotte" part is important.

It's actually a bit of mystery what his name/full name is. He is officialy styled as HRH Prince Daniel of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland. The royal court talks about Olof Daniel, Pr of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland, the swedish version calls him Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte, Pr of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland. For legal purposes he is called Olof Daniel Bernadotte Westling, with Bernadotte being his middle name and keeping Westling as his last name. But after the wedding it was said that it would be the exact opposite, moving Westling to middle name spot and last name being Bernadotte. So...at least we know that he goes by Daniel.

 

[monica17]

I just know in royal bloodlines there are a lot of members excluded so much because they are not the son of the son of the son.... instead of simply being a member of the family. Being the great grandchild of a king would mean a lot if you were in the direct male line, you'd be someone, but if it were through your mothers mother than you would be as common as the wind.

Not in all cases. It also depends on whether the marriage of the female descendant was considered equal, at least for the older generations of royals.

 

[monica17]

In my own experience though some of them (us) are stuck at the bottom of the peerage. If somewhere down the line your relative didn't marry royal.... youre pretty much out.

In the older generations yes. Because titles and birth (social status) were determined by equal rank and/or father's title(s) if any.

 

[lilnana]

The reason he didn't drop his surname (and just have his titles and first and middle name) is because there is law stating that a person is not allowed to drop there surname. The rest of the family doesn't have to have a surname is either the law wasn't in place at the time of their birth/wedding, or as wife/children of the king they were allowed circumvent the law. But rather then change his surname from Westling to Bernadotte they opted to make/treat his previous surname as another middle name with Bernadette as a the surname.

 

[Whitetiger]

The reason he didn't drop his surname (and just have his titles and first and middle name) is because there is law stating that a person is not allowed to drop there surname. The rest of the family doesn't have to have a surname is either the law wasn't in place at the time of their birth/wedding, or as wife/children of the king they were allowed circumvent the law. But rather then change his surname from Westling to Bernadotte they opted to make/treat his previous surname as another middle name with Bernadette as a the surname.

it makes sense to me at least. When you marry into royalty, you take on the name of the Royal House. I wouldn't have a problem with it. If I were in his position, I would look at it as gaining more than you would be giving up.

 

[Meraude]

The reason he didn't drop his surname (and just have his titles and first and middle name) is because there is law stating that a person is not allowed to drop there surname. .

This is not true for Sweden, there are no law against dropping or changing a surname. When a person marries s/he kan choose to keep their old surname, take the surname of their spouse and drop their old one, keep their surname and add their spouse's surname as a middle name, take their spouse's surname and keep their old as a middle name (as prince Daniel have done), or create a totally new surname for the newly-weds (for exampel Bernaling or Westdotte ),

It's not just when you get married that you can drop/change your surname, you can change it if you don't like it and choose a new one, for those who are interested, here's a link to changing surnames in Sweden: Changing surname - PRV

 

[mattep74]

Maybe Daniel keeps his old last name as a tribute to his parents?

 

[lilnana]

This is not true for Sweden, there are no law against dropping or changing a surname. When a person marries s/he kan choose to keep their old surname, take the surname of their spouse and drop their old one, keep their surname and add their spouse's surname as a middle name, take their spouse's surname and keep their old as a middle name (as prince Daniel have done), or create a totally new surname for the newly-weds (for exampel Bernaling or Westdotte ),

It's not just when you get married that you can drop/change your surname, you can change it if you don't like it and choose a new one, for those who are interested, here's a link to changing surnames in Sweden: Changing surname - PRV

Isn't that what I said? That he added on Bernadette as his surname, and even though he kept Westling in his name he can't pass on "Westling Bernadette" as one single surname. I think we had a miss understanding. When I said you couldn't drop a surname I meant as in have no surname and just be "Bob" or just "Daniel" with no surname. Or can I go to Sweden and change my name first name and drop my last name and just become Yzma? That would be cool, or better yet Maleficent.

 

[grevinnan]

This is not true for Sweden, there are no law against dropping or changing a surname. When a person marries s/he kan choose to keep their old surname, take the surname of their spouse and drop their old one, keep their surname and add their spouse's surname as a middle name, take their spouse's surname and keep their old as a middle name (as prince Daniel have done), or create a totally new surname for the newly-weds (for exampel Bernaling or Westdotte ),

It's not just when you get married that you can drop/change your surname, you can change it if you don't like it and choose a new one, for those who are interested, here's a link to changing surnames in Sweden: Changing surname - PRV

Unless the law has changed within the last couple of years one is not allowed to use a surname as the middle name in Sweden. Both myself and several of my swedish friends encountered that when applying for swedish passports for our children. It is very common here in the US to have the mother's maiden name as the middle name. However, the rules for swedish names were very clear and non-negotiable, no surname as middle name. Consequently my son and lots of other children now have swedish passport with a slightly different name than their US passport.

If they made an exception for Prince Daniel I hope that the in my opinion very silly rule will be changed for all citizens.

Edit - I just read the entire site you posted and it mentions you can take your spouse's surname as your middle name. It does not address your own original name, e.g. can you now have a surname as a middle name.

Another edit - on the website for Skatteverket the issue of children using a surname as middle name in certain circumstances.

Thanks for posting the original link.

 

[COUNTESS]

Isn't that what I said? That he added on Bernadette as his surname, and even though he kept Westling in his name he can't pass on "Westling Bernadette" as one single surname. I think we had a miss understanding. When I said you couldn't drop a surname I meant as in have no surname and just be "Bob" or just "Daniel" with no surname. Or can I go to Sweden and change my name first name and drop my last name and just become Yzma? That would be cool, or better yet Maleficent.

It is Bernadotte. From Marshal Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, a French Marshal under Napoleon. He was made the Prince of Ponte-Corvo and elected to be the Swedish king.

 

[royals-royce]

In the older generations yes. Because titles and birth (social status) were determined by equal rank and/or father's title(s) if any.

Perhaps, that was the purpose of Daniel adopting Victoria's family name?

To make sure that Victoria's children are indeed Bernadotte's otherwise they will be Westlings?

 

[grevinnan]

It is Bernadotte. From Marshal Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, a French Marshal under Napoleon. He was made the Prince of Ponte-Corvo and elected to be the Swedish king.

Bernadotte was elected Crown Prince. The King was still alive and Bernadotte was made his heir.

 

[Leslie2006]

Perhaps, that was the purpose of Daniel adopting Victoria's family name?

To make sure that Victoria's children are indeed Bernadotte's otherwise they will be Westlings?

Actually if you look at his bio on the Swedish Royal Family website, you'll notice that Daniel officially has two surnames: Westling Bernadotte. His official style and title are HRH Prince Daniel of Sweden, Duke of Vastergotland.

 

[KitKat2006]

Yes, the King made him one. He wouldn't have become one under the older rules that was made when women couldn't inherit the throne. But I guess the reasoining is sound, if women can inherit the crown as well as men can, men must be able to get a title by marriage as well women do.

Yes, but in that case he should be rightfully be crownprince and not just prince. Just like Letizia, Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, etc have become crownprincesses and not just princesses. They're still not fair when it comes to things like that and I perfectly understand that Henrik of Denmark isn't happy about the fact that he isn't King of Denmark, while Silvia ist Queen of Sweden and Sonja is Queen of Norway. What makes Silvia and Sonja higher valued than Henrik or the late Bernhard of the Netherlands or the Duke of Edinburgh? Or what makes Mary and Mette-Marit higher valued than Daniel? Equality yes, but not when at the same moment the equality just brings women level to men. It should also be the other way around. Daniel wouldn't ever be king of his own and would always just be the added partner in this high-level-marriage (and also they can insist on keeping the royal family name so the not royal born partner has to go by this name after the marriage). But he has the same right to be crownprince and king some day like Letizia, Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, etc have IMO.