Comital Houses of Waldburg


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Marengo

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Arms of the House of Waldburg

Welcome to the thread Comital Houses of Waldburg

Commencing January 1st, 2023
This includes the lines: Waldburg zu Wolfegg und Waldsee,

Waldburg-Zeil-Trauchburg and the latters sidebranch Waldburg-Zeil-Hohenems;


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An interesting article from Marlene Koenig about the wedding of Css Leonie.


scroll down, under the many wonderful photos Marlene writes that Count Franz Clemens seems to having a disagreement with other relatives, including the head of the family Count Erich ánd the Prince of Waldburg and Wolfegg ánd with his own brother Stephan Georg. the disagreement seems twofold: Franz Clemens wantss to have the Hohenhems family listed as a seperate family in the Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch and not as a side branch of the Waldburg-Zeil family. And he wants his eldest daughter Tatjana instated as his heiress.

For that reason his brother and wife did not attend the wedding (their children did), neither did count Erich (his wife and one of his daughters did) and the Prince of Wolfegg only attended the wedding ceremony but not the reception.

A thread about the wedding vcan be found here:

 
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I recall at Tatjana's wedding it was announced that she would be keeping her name and all possible issue from their marriage would have  her surname. I remember thinking that to be very odd. I guess it makes sense now.
The King of the Netherlands is no stranger to title disputes. However, he should really talk some sense into his best friend!
 
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I have traced the link between the two brothers you mention and the groom at this wedding. It is very distant, as their common ancestor is Count Joseph von Matuschka (1764-1829), who married Baroness Ernestine von Strachwitz und Gross-Zauche (1765-1811) in 1785.

Karl-Philip (1937) -> Richard (1893) --> Rudolf (1847) -> Hugo (1822) -> Gustav (1793) -> Joseph (1764)

Caspar (1994) -> Wilhelm (1963) ->Victor (1932) -> Michael (1888) -> Emanuel (1855) -> Victor (1824) -> Victor (1789) -> Joseph (1764)

By my reckoning, that makes Count Karl-Philip and Count Caspar fourth cousins, twice removed.

This page provides 95% of the information, but has not been updated to include Wilhelm's children with Maria Luisa von Voss (Vincent and Caspar) - that info comes from this site instead.

I hope this helps.
:flowers: Thank you very much for your research! It helps a lot and the link is interesting for me. With that information I'm not surprised that Karl Matuschka's children didn't attend the wedding, the realtionship is really very distant.
 
I recall at Tatjana's wedding it was announced that she would be keeping her name and all possible issue from their marriage would have  her surname. I remember thinking that to be very odd. I guess it makes sense now.
The King of the Netherlands is no stranger to title disputes. However, he should really talk some sense into his best friend!

I suppose titles do not officially exist in Austria. But to get recognised by the GGHA will be complicated-not happening. Not that it is a novelty, we have seen other families such as the Anhalts, the Castro´s, the Prince of Venice, the Saxony´s etc. trying to bend the old succession rules as well. And I am sure more will follow in the case of the head of the family having daughters and no sons. And it is natural for parents to prefer the inheritance going to their direct descendants over a nephew I suppose.

I am not aware of any title disputes in the Dutch RF? Other perhaps thaan the Duke of Parma and his Carlist claim.
 
I have traced the link between the two brothers you mention and the groom at this wedding. It is very distant, as their common ancestor is Count Joseph von Matuschka (1764-1829), who married Baroness Ernestine von Strachwitz und Gross-Zauche (1765-1811) in 1785.

Karl-Philip (1937) -> Richard (1893) --> Rudolf (1847) -> Hugo (1822) -> Gustav (1793) -> Joseph (1764)

Caspar (1994) -> Wilhelm (1963) ->Victor (1932) -> Michael (1888) -> Emanuel (1855) -> Victor (1824) -> Victor (1789) -> Joseph (1764)

By my reckoning, that makes Count Karl-Philip and Count Caspar fourth cousins, twice removed.

This page provides 95% of the information, but has not been updated to include Wilhelm's children with Maria Luisa von Voss (Vincent and Caspar) - that info comes from this site instead.

I hope this helps.
Thanks for that. There are even 2 more brothers of Count Caspar. Count Ludwig and Konrad as posted on the Nobiliana forum.
 
I suppose titles do not officially exist in Austria. But to get recognised by the GGHA will be complicated-not happening. Not that it is a novelty, we have seen other families such as the Anhalts, the Castro´s, the Prince of Venice, the Saxony´s etc. trying to bend the old succession rules as well. And I am sure more will follow in the case of the head of the family having daughters and no sons. And it is natural for parents to prefer the inheritance going to their direct descendants over a nephew I suppose.

I am not aware of any title disputes in the Dutch RF? Other perhaps thaan the Duke of Parma and his Carlist claim.
As far as i know it similar to like in Germany but that there is only for example Waldburg-Zeil-Hohenems in the surname as the use of Graf/Gräfin and von is forbidden. And of course as it are only names now it is quiet easy. The daughter simply does not take her huisbands name and the children get their mothers name.
Acutally this is not really a Junior branch with an own Head of the Family but a junior branch of the Waldburg-Zeil-Trauchburg branch. I think the Issue is more who will take over the Palace in Hohenems. A few years ago there was a Programm on the SWR where the Count said they would like to have their oldest daughter take it over and she also said in it that she is interested.
 
I am not aware of any title disputes in the Dutch RF? Other perhaps thaan the Duke of Parma and his Carlist claim.
Yes...precisely that. The King's first cousin the Duke of Parma.
 
Yes...precisely that. The King's first cousin the Duke of Parma.
Yes, but Carlos Hugo is Head of the Parma house and his titles are recognised in the Netherlands.

I suppose titles do not officially exist in Austria. But to get recognised by the GGHA will be complicated-not happening. Not that it is a novelty, we have seen other families such as the Anhalts, the Castro´s, the Prince of Venice, the Saxony´s etc. trying to bend the old succession rules as well. And I am sure more will follow in the case of the head of the family having daughters and no sons. And it is natural for parents to prefer the inheritance going to their direct descendants over a nephew I suppose.

I am not aware of any title disputes in the Dutch RF? Other perhaps thaan the Duke of Parma and his Carlist claim.
Yes, but in the Hohenems case, the issue isn’t property because Count Franz bought out his siblings, but him wanting to have his branch of the family as a separate one with his daughter succeeding him. I wouldn’t simply say it’s natural, but just self-serving especially when some of them may have older sisters but now that they have daughters instead of sons, the bending of the old rules comes into play.
 
Not his Carlist claim as the King of Spain!
Obviously that’s why I didn’t mention it. Also, he isn’t actively or secretly trying to promote himself as the next King of Spain.
 
Well all titles once started by someone claiming to be (called) this or that, and I fully understand they want everything to go to their eldest daughter instead of nephew just because he's a man. High time women get the same rights.
 
Well all titles once started by someone claiming to be (called) this or that, and I fully understand they want everything to go to their eldest daughter instead of nephew just because he's a man. High time women get the same rights.
Well titles back then were legally recognised and given by the Emperor or King so nobody back then had the right to claim to be something they weren’t. There’s no monarch to amend titles or whatever. It’s already been explained that the dispute isn’t about property because the father owns the palace.
 
Well titles back then were legally recognised and given by the Emperor or King so nobody back then had the right to claim to be something they weren’t. There’s no monarch to amend titles or whatever. It’s already been explained that the dispute isn’t about property because the father owns the palace.
And the Titles where usually to be for the male line not for descendants of daughters. The Issue is now the part of the surname and can therefore also used by descendants of daughters who didn't take their husbands name.
 
Thanks for that. There are even 2 more brothers of Count Caspar. Count Ludwig and Konrad as posted on the Nobiliana forum.
I would very much like to be able to access the Nobiliana forums, but they appear to be completely closed off these days - I am not able to even view them as a guest.
 
Yes, but in the Hohenems case, the issue isn’t property because Count Franz bought out his siblings, but him wanting to have his branch of the family as a separate one with his daughter succeeding him. I wouldn’t simply say it’s natural, but just self-serving especially when some of them may have older sisters but now that they have daughters instead of sons, the bending of the old rules comes into play.

The family has property in Austria, right?

Because in Austria there is traditionally a different approach: If I remember it right, then since the case about the succession of then Empress Maria Theresia the girls were able to inherit the "Fideikomiss", the family fortune to, if there was no male heir. And the name as well. So, it went not to a prospect male heir from another branch of the family!

But I do not know, if there are "House Laws", which say something different...
 
The family has property in Austria, right?

Because in Austria there is traditionally a different approach: If I remember it right, then since the case about the succession of then Empress Maria Theresia the girls were able to inherit the "Fideikomiss", the family fortune to, if there was no male heir. And the name as well. So, it went not to a prospect male heir from another branch of the family!

But I do not know, if there are "House Laws", which say something different...
Yes Hohenems is in Austria. Just not far behind Bregenz at the Lake Constance
 
The family has property in Austria, right?

Because in Austria there is traditionally a different approach: If I remember it right, then since the case about the succession of then Empress Maria Theresia the girls were able to inherit the "Fideikomiss", the family fortune to, if there was no male heir. And the name as well. So, it went not to a prospect male heir from another branch of the family!

But I do not know, if there are "House Laws", which say something different...
This branch of the family has property in Austria. However unlike in Empress Maria Theresia’s time when the male Habsburgs died out as there were no more male heirs, the heiress married a noble of old lineage. But in this case of the Waldburg-Hohenems, the eldest daughter didn’t marry a noble and this branch isn’t going to die out because there are male heirs to perpetuate the Hohenems line, the issue is that since Count Franz bought out his siblings from the family property and he only has daughters, he is trying to perpetuate a branch separate from the Waldburg-Zeil family, (the hohenems branch is actually a side-line branch of the Zeil branch). It’s fine that his daughter is inheriting the property, but trying to create a new branch of “Waldburgs” is pointless.
 
Is there a source of an attempt to register a new branch or just speculation? Txs.

Here is the link to the TV video about the family, it sounds very down to earth, modern, realistic and successfull how Franz Clemens managed to rebuild all the castles in only one generation, so why leave it to an estrangened male descendant, his daughters seem well prepared.


It is btw a very common custom of noble women who marry to lower or none nobility to keep their own name and their children named so, too. As titles only exist in their minds but not in real life and many women do so anyway its nothing outstanding,
children might receive some privileges
 
Is there a source of an attempt to register a new branch or just speculation? Txs.

Here is the link to the TV video about the family, it sounds very down to earth, modern, realistic and successfull how Franz Clemens managed to rebuild all the castles in only one generation, so why leave it to an estrangened male descendant, his daughters seem well prepared.


It is btw a very common custom of noble women who marry to lower or none nobility to keep their own name and their children named so, too. As titles only exist in their minds but not in real life and many women do so anyway its nothing outstanding,
children might receive some privileges
You can read Marlene Koenig’s blog which discusses this Countess Leonie von Waldburg-Zeil marries Count Caspar von Matuschka. It has been stated three times on this forum that he bought out his siblings share of the family property so no one cares who he leaves the property to. The issue is him trying to declare his branch of the Waldburg-Zeil family as a separate one when it’s actually a side branch. It’s not a common custom in the German nobility/Austrian. Also, if you say “it’s nothing outstanding and titles don’t exist in real life” then what’s the point of him trying to perpetuate a new branch of the Waldburg house. No one is talking about titles and in any case because it’s not recognised in Austria or even used as a last name. Franz Clemens is not the last male of his branch, he has male siblings who will continue hohenems line, but the property will belong to his daughter.
 
You can read Marlene Koenig’s blog which discusses this Countess Leonie von Waldburg-Zeil marries Count Caspar von Matuschka. It has been stated three times on this forum that he bought out his siblings share of the family property so no one cares who he leaves the property to. The issue is him trying to declare his branch of the Waldburg-Zeil family as a separate one when it’s actually a side branch. It’s not a common custom in the German nobility/Austrian. Also, if you say “it’s nothing outstanding and titles don’t exist in real life” then what’s the point of him trying to perpetuate a new branch of the Waldburg house. No one is talking about titles and in any case because it’s not recognised in Austria or even used as a last name. Franz Clemens is not the last male of his branch, he has male siblings who will continue hohenems line, but the property will belong to his daughter.
Txs, but I asked for the source of Clemens trying this.
And about being "common", I know quite a few women who did so because of the last name.
 
Txs, but I asked for the source of Clemens trying this.
And about being "common", I know quite a few women who did so because of the last name.
I posted a link to the blog where Marlene stated Clemens was trying all that I addressed in my post. I think you didn’t understand what I said. For one thing, “Count Franz Clemens is reportedly at odds with other Waldburg zu Zeil family members as he wants to be included as a separate line in Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch. He wants the title of Count Waldburg zu Zeil-Lustenau-Hohenems to be recognized by the editors of Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch, as he wants to pass his title to his eldest daughter, Countess Tatjana, who is married to Philipp Eisl. His request was denied. He has been pushing his claim since 2011, according to a source.” This is a direct quote from Marlene’s blog. Also from the blog is “There is no historical basis for Franz Clemens' claims. He no longer considers his family as a branch of the Waldburg-Zeil princely family but as a separate former ruling house.” Additionally, “He describes himself as a "Princely Count" which is incorrect. The count's fabrication of his family history appears on the Palast Hohenems website.” Finally, “Further research shows how Franz Clemens has tried on numerous times to change his Wikipedia entry. He uses the name Clemens Waldburg when he has attempted to change his profile since 2011.”

“After the First World War, titles were abolished in Germany and Austria. The new German law allowed for the former titles to become surnames. In Austria, this was not allowed, not even the use of von In Austria, Franz Clemens has the surname Waldburg”.
 
I posted a link to the blog where Marlene stated Clemens was trying all that I addressed in my post. I think you didn’t understand what I said. For one thing, “Count Franz Clemens is reportedly at odds with other Waldburg zu Zeil family members as he wants to be included as a separate line in Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch. He wants the title of Count Waldburg zu Zeil-Lustenau-Hohenems to be recognized by the editors of Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch, as he wants to pass his title to his eldest daughter, Countess Tatjana, who is married to Philipp Eisl. His request was denied. He has been pushing his claim since 2011, according to a source.” This is a direct quote from Marlene’s blog. Also from the blog is “There is no historical basis for Franz Clemens' claims. He no longer considers his family as a branch of the Waldburg-Zeil princely family but as a separate former ruling house.” Additionally, “He describes himself as a "Princely Count" which is incorrect. The count's fabrication of his family history appears on the Palast Hohenems website.” Finally, “Further research shows how Franz Clemens has tried on numerous times to change his Wikipedia entry. He uses the name Clemens Waldburg when he has attempted to change his profile since 2011.”

“After the First World War, titles were abolished in Germany and Austria. The new German law allowed for the former titles to become surnames. In Austria, this was not allowed, not even the use of von In Austria, Franz Clemens has the surname Waldburg”.
Thanks, I did ask for a source , just another blog isn't. But never mind.
And I missed to add that the women I mentioned are German, I know its different in Austria.
 
Thanks, I did ask for a source , just another blog isn't. But never mind.
And I missed to add that the women I mentioned are German, I know its different in Austria.
Marlene is a well respected and well informed personality not only on her blog, but on the forums as well. A blog is a source and Marlene has links to the things Franz Clemens had been doing like him trying to appeal to the Gotha genealogy handbook and his false claim as a Princely count on the Palast Hohenems website.
 
Marlene is not only well respected , she has a close relationship with many royal families . She does not deal in gossip . I would trust Royal Musings far more that tabloid press , in uk or anywhere
 
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Also, if you say “it’s nothing outstanding and titles don’t exist in real life” then what’s the point of him trying to perpetuate a new branch of the Waldburg house.

One could ask the same question about the relatives who are boycotting a wedding over nonexistent titles.

Moved the general discussion about women inheriting to Royalty/Nobility and Gender.
 
and she's rarely wrong.

Mrs. Koenig deserves respect for her assiduous reporting and writing and like you I trust her reporting on this and similar stories which she seemingly sourced from the families involved. Nonetheless, she is – in common with all royal watchers – not flawless, and there have been many times when I have seen erroneous information appear on her blog, particularly concerning matters of law and judicial rulings.
 
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