Choice of Marriage Partners in European Monarchies


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Victoria Eugenie was a member of the reigning British royal family.



Nobody in this conversation has said anything about the Battenbergs reigning or not. Since you bring it up, Alexander of Battenberg was the reigning prince of Bulgaria for several years. But that has nothing to do with Spanish or British royal history.



Nobody ever claimed that Victoria Eugenie's father was a sovereign prince or reigned.
When I say she did not come from a reigning family, I’m talking about patrilineal because that is what counts, using her mother’s membership of the British royal house doesn’t change the fact that she was from morganatic ancestry on her father’s line. Morganatic marriages are not just about titles and styles, but also ancestry. Despite Alexander of Battenberg for a short time reigning in Bulgaria, he was still not considered as a good match by the Hohenzollerns because of his morganatic ancestry.
 
She was not from a reigning family. The Battenbergs never reigned anywhere. Her mother might have been a Princess of the U.K but her father was no sovereign prince and never reigned.

Her father descended (morganatically) in paternal line from a sovereign family. Her grandfather was Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine, who was the third son of a sovereign, Louis II, Grand Duke of Hesse. And Queen Victoria granted Prince Henry the style of Royal Highness in 1885 so that he could hold an equal rank to his wife, Princess Beatrice.
 
When I say she did not come from a reigning family, I’m talking about patrilineal because that is what counts, using her mother’s membership of the British royal house doesn’t change the fact that she was from morganatic ancestry on her father’s line. Morganatic marriages are not just about titles and styles, but also ancestry. Despite Alexander of Battenberg for a short time reigning in Bulgaria, he was still not considered as a good match by the Hohenzollerns because of his morganatic ancestry.

I am perfectly aware that patrilineal ancestry is what counts in your eyes. However, to repeat myself, I was and still am not discussing your opinion, but the history of the Spanish and British royal families. You may dislike it as much as you wish, but it is a historical fact that the British monarchs counted Victoria Eugenie as a member of the British royal family, and it is a historical fact that the Spanish monarch and government counted her as an equal-rank spouse.

"Morganatic ancestry" is not a generally known term. "Morganatic" is normally a descriptor applied to marriages (not ancestors) of royalty or nobility in which neither spouse takes on the rank of the other.
 
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I am perfectly aware that patrilineal ancestry is what counts in your eyes. However, to repeat myself, I was and still am not discussing your opinion, but the history of the Spanish and British royal families. You may dislike it as much as you wish, but it is a historical fact that the British monarchs counted Victoria Eugenie as a member of the British royal family, and it is a historical fact that the Spanish monarch and government counted her as an equal-rank spouse.

"Morganatic ancestry" is not a generally known term. "Morganatic" is normally a descriptor applied to marriages (not ancestors) of royalty or nobility in which neither spouse takes on the rank of the other.
What do you mean it counts my eyes? It counted in the eyes of many sovereigns prior to WW I. Marriages are considered morganatic not only because of status but ancestry as well. A persons paternal and maternal ancestors are examined not just maternal. There was a reason why apart from diplomatic ones with Russia that the Prussian court did not permit Viktoria of Prussia to marry Alexander of Battenberg.
 
What do you mean it counts my eyes? It counted in the eyes of many sovereigns prior to WW I.

There may indeed have been some sovereigns who would have agreed with you, and no one said there were not.

However, the only sovereigns whom I discussed (and naturally believed you were discussing in your replies to me) in relation to Fabiola and later Victoria Eugenie were the sovereigns of Spain and Britain.
 
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Well another union considered morganatic was the marriage of Alexander of Castell-Rudenhausen and Baroness Otillie von Faber
 
Britain has never recognised the concept of 'unequal' marriages or 'morganatic' marriages. The Europeans were always more 'snobbish' about that while the British always took the view that a wife was automatically raised to the status of the husband on marriage.

I will assume that "the Europeans" means "the non-British Europeans", as British culture is categorically European.

It is not true that Britain has never recognized the concept of morganatic marriages. The British legal view is that a wife is automatically raised to the status of the husband on marriage if the husband's status was higher than that of wife before the marriage. Thus, no morganatic marriage is possible under those circumstances (except when you are Wallis Simpson). However, when the status of the wife is higher than that of the husband, she is not lowered to his status on marriage and he is not raised to hers. (If a baroness marries a male commoner, she is not automatically lowered to commoner and he is not automatically raised to baron.) Such a marriage is factually "morganatic", even though most Britons today would not use such an old-fashioned description.

Neither was Britain the only European country where the law dictated that a lower-status wife was automatically raised to the status of a her husband on marriage. That was also - formerly - the law in Sweden. Princes of the Swedish Royal House sometimes married unequally (a recognized concept in Sweden), but never morganatically. Their unequal wives were raised to whatever rank their husbands were permitted to keep.

It is true that British law has never recognized the concept of unequal marriages, but British society certainly has. It was no accident that the future King George III banned both of his siblings who married non-royals from court, or that the Royal Marriages Act 1772 was enacted to safeguard against similar future marriages.

Any "marriage" which breached the requirement to obtain permission in the terms of the Royal Marriages Act 1772 was not legally recognized in the United Kingdom. This meant that women such as Sarah Louise Fairbrother not only were not raised to the status of their royal "husbands", but were denied even the ordinary legal perks of marriage, since they were not married in the eyes of the law.

Personally, I would say that this British approach of forcing women whose status was too lowly to become royal princesses to remain as illicit lovers was more "snobbish" than allowing them to become morganatic wives would have been.
 
Morganatic Marriages

Excuse, but I have a question.

How you concern to morganatic marriages?

I wish to tell to you, that I do not like such marriages.

Why princes and princesses contact marriage with persons of not regal advantage?


1. Turn of absolutely inadmissible and scandalous mismarriages of the beginning of XXI century in royal families of Norway, Denmark, Spain shake bases of their authority. Aspiring as much as possible to democratize the monarchy, they reduce them to a level of usual theatrical properties.

2. The latest news from Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark do not leave doubts that princes have decided to destroy own monarchy. Now in their Kingdoms any child without dependence from its floor can borrow a throne!

3. It is naturally considered as a positive step since keeps within idea of political correctness and emancipation of women. The birth of the daughter at prince of Asturia at once has pushed prime minister Sapatero to declare the beginning of change of the present dynastic legislation of Spain on which the daughter of the successor of the Throne can inherit only after the brother. In opinion of social democrat Sapatero " it breaks the rights of women in royal family ", and that introduction of the Swedish model abolishes the rights of a dynasty since the name and a title pass on a man's line, nobody excites it. And that the future infanta of Spain will marry any football player, the bodyguard or the comedian, it and so it is clear.

4. For example, in the Romanian royal house the same history. After death of Мichael I by the successor its senior daughter who has entered a left-handed marriage with the simple guy by name Rada Duba. Thus, instead of dynasty of Hohenzollern-Sigmarinens in the Romanian royal house to affirm the dynasty of Duba! And it provided that dynasty of Hohenzollern-Sigmarinens safely is well!

5. One question: how to be what daughters of successors of the Scandinavian thrones obviously as well as their fathers will create families on love, instead of with feeling of a duty? How to be what their posterity begins to belong to a new dynasty when it is still alive old - true and lawful?

6. Where there are European monarchy, mixing up with simple people?

Morganatic marriages today in the Netherlands is no problems, already solved by the Dutch Gvernments and the royal house of Orange Nassau years ago,.
 
The discussion was about Chris O'Neill so I see no need to change it to concern his aunts-by-marriage and continue it somewhere else.
I stated that Madeleine’s aunts who married commoners/nobles got their titles downgraded whereas Madeleine was permitted to share her title with her commoner husband (the same change was made for princes).
 
No, you have it exactly right, Norwegianne. As it turns out, the definition means two different things depending on geography.

1. a morganatic marriage in German speaking areas means unequality of birth between spouses. That's the definition Russian seems to relate to on this thread.

2. However, the <French> definition is different: there it's refferred to as a union in all but legal name. Or, a secret marriage. I.e. back in the day, when royal marriages meant unions of power, not typically love, the male part of the union might have a 'morganatic wife', as in, his long-term mistress.

People, and even dictionaries, employ many varied, even conflicting definitions of “morganatic”.

The word derives from the old term “morning gift”, denoting a gift given the morning after a wedding, typically from the husband to the wife. Thus, one meaning of “morganatic” is a marriage in which spouses do not share one another’s property other than the morning-gift.

One definition used by legal scholars in Germany, perhaps the region with the most “morganatic” marriages, is a marriage wherein the marriage agreement between the spouses specifies that the marriage will not have full legal effects (as opposed to the denial of full legal effects being automatic owing to some law or general regulation).

Some assert that a marriage in which one spouse does not share the other’s title and rank is morganatic.

Others say the descriptor “morganatic” should only be applied to marriages where a lower-status woman is married to a higher-status man but does not share his title and rank.

Some contend that a morganatic marriage requires the children born from it to be excluded from inheriting a throne.

Others say the children must excluded from all succession rights, including succession to privately-owned money or real estate.

I have seen plenty of other definitions in use.


So, as a pragmatic matter, I suggest it would be sensible if all of us make clear what we mean by morganatic, ask for clarification when necessary, and accept that other people may be using different definitions of “morganatic” than we do.
 
Ludwig Wilhelm in Bavaria (1831-1920) was the eldest child of Duke Maximilian Joseph in Bavaria.
He was fascinated with the actress Henriette Mendel when he saw her at the Grand Ducal Court Theatre.
He renounced his rights as first born.
He and Henriette married morganatically in 1859.
 
Ludwig Wilhelm in Bavaria (1831-1920) was the eldest child of Duke Maximilian Joseph in Bavaria.
He was fascinated with the actress Henriette Mendel when he saw her at the Grand Ducal Court Theatre.
He renounced his rights as first born.
He and Henriette married morganatically in 1859.
Brother of Sissi. Their only child to make it out of infancy was involved with Mayerling incident which claimed the life of her cousin Crown Prince Rudolph. She was a go between for him and his mistress. Like her father, Marie married a performer, in her case her second husband was a musician. Her first marriage was to a noble she had 5 kids with, arranged by Sissi. Marie was born before her parents wed, the morgantic marriage was arranged when her mother got pregnant a second time.

He was married 2 times. His second wife he was wed to for decades, was a ballerina, Barbara Barth. He is said to have been abusive the last years of marriage. She bore him a daughter Helene as they divorced, who he claimed was not his. Helene was the third wife of Prince Friedrich Christian of Schaumburg-Lippe. She married her ex's adjutant after they divorced.

Planned to divorce Barbara for Fräulein Tordek, this time a prima with the opera. It doesn't seem he married her even after he divorced Barbara.
 
I always found morganatic marriages to be interesting, how spouses and children can be left out or their status/ ranking lowered. The marriage of Archduke Ferdinand heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne to Countess Sophie Chotek because she was not of equal royal birth was when I first really understood the results of a morganatic marriage. I would have thought that because she was nobility that it would not have been such an issue but it caused a lot of problems in the Hapsburg court.
 
I always found morganatic marriages to be interesting, how spouses and children can be left out or their status/ ranking lowered. The marriage of Archduke Ferdinand heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne to Countess Sophie Chotek because she was not of equal royal birth was when I first really understood the results of a morganatic marriage. I would have thought that because she was nobility that it would not have been such an issue but it caused a lot of problems in the Hapsburg court.
Quite the scandal when their courtship was found out. It was his stepmother Maria Teresa who was able to help them get the right to marry though morgantic. She remained supportive, and made sure when the couple were assassinated, that their children were financially supported. Their father's money went to his cousin, and the children could have been left penniless. She forced the emperor to provide them support.

Sophie was not the only sibling to marry royalty. Her older sister married Prince Jaroslav von Thun und Hohenstein. It was Jaroslav and his wife who took in the orphaned children of Sophie and Ferdinand and raised them primarily though Maria Teresa was also involved.

Sophie's 'for life' title Duchess of Hohenberg was later made a dynastic title by Charles I for their son Maximillian. Maximillian is the grandfather of the current Duke of Hohenberg.
 
If Archduke Franz Ferdinand had ascended to the throne, would he, as sovereign, have had the power to declare his marriage dynastic, and in so doing make his children legitimate heirs to the Austro-Hungarian throne?
 
If Archduke Franz Ferdinand had ascended to the throne, would he, as sovereign, have had the power to declare his marriage dynastic, and in so doing make his children legitimate heirs to the Austro-Hungarian throne?
No. Part of his permission was to marry was taking an oath of renunciation, legally agreeing his wife and children would never rise in station.
 
No. Part of his permission was to marry was taking an oath of renunciation, legally agreeing his wife and children would never rise in station.
Thanks so much for the information - I didn't know this.

It's interesting that he was allowed to remain heir. I guess it follows that if Sophie had died young and Franz Ferdinand had remarried equally, male children of his second marriage could have inherited the throne. This also begs the question, if Sophie had died while Franz Ferdinand was Emperor, could he have contracted a second "unequal" marriage and declared it dynastic?

I am perfectly aware that patrilineal ancestry is what counts in your eyes. However, to repeat myself, I was and still am not discussing your opinion, but the history of the Spanish and British royal families. You may dislike it as much as you wish, but it is a historical fact that the British monarchs counted Victoria Eugenie as a member of the British royal family, and it is a historical fact that the Spanish monarch and government counted her as an equal-rank spouse.

"Morganatic ancestry" is not a generally known term. "Morganatic" is normally a descriptor applied to marriages (not ancestors) of royalty or nobility in which neither spouse takes on the rank of the other.
I think Alfonso's mother, Queen Maria Christina, had misgivings about Ena, partly due to her father's Battenburg lineage. Edward VII raised Ena from HH to HRH before the wedding.
 
If Archduke Franz Ferdinand had ascended to the throne, would he, as sovereign, have had the power to declare his marriage dynastic, and in so doing make his children legitimate heirs to the Austro-Hungarian throne?

From the lawyers' point of view, I don't believe an Emperor Franz Ferdinand could unilaterally amend the marriage regulations in the 1839 house law and the 1900 "interpretation" of Article 1 of the 1839 house law.

The house law and interpretation are stated in their preamble and epilogue to have been approved by the "agnates" and "entitled family members" (i.e., the male members of the family with succession rights).

It logically follows that the entitled agnates' approval would likewise be required to repeal or amend them.



Moreover, in the Holy Roman Empire as well as 19th-century Germany, legal norms dictated that modifications to ruling/noble families' "private laws" (Privatfürstenrecht) required the family's agnates to consent, at least if the modification would impinge on the agnates' rights.

Marriage standards required agnates' consent, because allowing a wife and children to inherit would reduce the inheritance of agnates (and their wives and children) who came after them in the order of succession.


(On a side note: Heraldica is certainly an amazing resource; I only wish Mr. Velde had expanded his research into more royal families.)

This remains the case with Germanic monarchies today. Luxembourg and Liechtenstein's house laws require the consent of family members for amendments, whereas Monaco's house law can be unilaterally amended by the sovereign prince.


Of course, a head of state bending or breaking the law is not exactly unthinkable. Could a sufficiently authoritarian and popular Emperor Franz Ferdinand have bullied his family and country into accepting his wife as Empress and his son as Crown Prince, laws aside? I will leave that to the more knowledgeable.


I think Alfonso's mother, Queen Maria Christina, had misgivings about Ena, partly due to her father's Battenburg lineage.

That's probably unsurprising as she was raised in a culturally German monarchy (Austria-Hungary) where patrilineal descent reigned supreme. I have read that some of the jure uxoris/female-line members of the British royal family (Tecks and Battenbergs) had difficulty being accepted as "royal" in Germany, despite their clear royal status in Britain.
 
I think Alfonso's mother, Queen Maria Christina, had misgivings about Ena, partly due to her father's Battenburg lineage. Edward VII raised Ena from HH to HRH before the wedding.
Alfonso was also warned about Ena because she had a hemophiliac brother and could be a carrier herself. It turned out Ena was indeed a carrier and hemophilia had a profound effect on the marriage and monarchy.
 
I think Alfonso's mother, Queen Maria Christina, had misgivings about Ena, partly due to her father's Battenburg lineage. Edward VII raised Ena from HH to HRH before the wedding.
Another reason was that Queen Maria Cristina would apparently have preferred a catholic Princess.
 
Alfonso was also warned about Ena because she had a hemophiliac brother and could be a carrier herself. It turned out Ena was indeed a carrier and hemophilia had a profound effect on the marriage and monarchy.
He knew, chose to marry her, and then mistreated her for something he was warned about?
 
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