Bowing and Curtseying

[wartenberg7]

They didn't need to bow to the QueenMother, she was not the Monarchy, if they did it was probably out of respect. The QueenMother bows to the Queen.

Sorry, but the Queen Mother was titled "Majesty", she was a wife and mother of a british sovereign. So, of course her grand children, especially those completely untiteled like the Philips or Armstrong-Jones, were expected to curtsey a woman, being Queen (consort) during the war years, last Queen-empress of India! The only time I saw her curtsey to her daughter was at her coronation, just like Queen Mary did a (little) curtsey at her sons coronation in 1937.
Her predecessors Queens Alexandra and Mary have certainly also always been curtsied by junior members of the RF (which was by nature everyone except the sovereign himself and his wife!). "Majesties" no matter the monarch her/ himself or royal persons like the Queen Mother are always entitled to be curtsied, both home and abroad. Everything else would have caused rised eyebrows.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

To be fair, I have seen footages of the Queen Mum just being greeted by Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, David, Sarah, Peter, Zara, William etc. with a kiss. No bow and no curtsey. She seemed not interested in necks and knees going down.

 

[Troy Thompson]

To add, in the Arab world, The Hashemite, the royal house of which Princess Haya is from is descended from the the great-grandfather of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

In fact, they're directly descended from Muhammad if you count the female line (the Hashemite dynasty descends in the male line from Hasan ibn Ali, who was one of the two sons of Muhammad's cousin, Ali, and Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah bint Muhammad).


So, yeah, the Hashemite dynasty is packing a lot of prestige. On top of that, there's the extra prestige bonus that Haya's great-great-grandfather led the Great Arab Revolt, which removed the Ottoman yoke from the Arabs' neck once and for all.

 

[fandesacs2003]

In fact, they're directly descended from Muhammad if you count the female line (the Hashemite dynasty descends in the male line from Hasan ibn Ali, who was one of the two sons of Muhammad's cousin, Ali, and Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah bint Muhammad).


So, yeah, the Hashemite dynasty is packing a lot of prestige. On top of that, there's the extra prestige bonus that Haya's great-great-grandfather led the Great Arab Revolt, which removed the Ottoman yoke from the Arabs' neck once and for all.

Extremely detailed and interesting information, thanks. I realize that Princess Haya is by blood so highly ranked, that she could difficulty do an equal marriage. Maybe she could marry an Iraki prince, if they are still remaining or a descendant of the Ottoman sultans, otherwise in the Muslim world all the possible matches including her actual husband are of a lower rank than she is.

 

[JR76]

Extremely detailed and interesting information, thanks. I realize that Princess Haya is by blood so highly ranked, that she could difficulty do an equal marriage. Maybe she could marry an Iraki prince, if they are still remaining or a descendant of the Ottoman sultans, otherwise in the Muslim world all the possible matches including her actual husband are of a lower rank than she is.

The remaining members of the Iraqi royal family are descended from Prince Zeid, the brother of Kings Abdullah I of Jordan and Faisal I of Iraq. His still living son Prince Raad has four sons and several grandsons.
I've read somewhere that at the beginning of the 20th century it was considered that the most prestigious families of the Middle East were the Imperial family of the Ottomans, the Royal family of Egypt and the Hashemites.
In addition to them I'd add the Imperial Qajar dynasty of Persia and the already at the time demoted and humiliated Mughal dynasty of India.

 

[Troy Thompson]

His still living son Prince Raad has four sons and several grandsons.

Which brings to mind yet another prestige boost for the House of Hashim: Prince Ra'ad's eldest son, Prince Zeid bin Ra'ad Zeid al-Hussein, I believe, deserves a lot of respect for his tenure as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. He made a few very powerful enemies, but he was absolutely faithful to his portfolio, and any enemies he did make were so made precisely because he did not stray from his portfolio for the sake of political considerations.

 

[theroyalfly]

To be fair, I have seen footages of the Queen Mum just being greeted by Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, David, Sarah, Peter, Zara, William etc. with a kiss. No bow and no curtsey. She seemed not interested in necks and knees going down.

Oh this seems interesting.

Have you seen any photos of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester and Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent curtseying to Queen Mum?

 

[wartenberg7]

To be fair, I have seen footages of the Queen Mum just being greeted by Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, David, Sarah, Peter, Zara, William etc. with a kiss. No bow and no curtsey. She seemed not interested in necks and knees going down.

Then you haven´t seen a lot about her...
Every time there was a situation she was greeted by her family, she was greeted with deep curtsies (except her eldest daughter, of course)!

I remember seeing her waiting for the family at a pier in Scotland when the RF arrived by Britannia for their annual holidays (the Queen Mother obviously having been arrived before), when the late Pss Diana did a deep curtsey as well as Anne or Lady Sarah (then Armstr. Jones). Charles and his brothers kissing her hand and then bowing their heads.

The same at one of her last birthdays in the garden of Clarence House where all her family gathered: Her granddaughters and great-granddaughters curtseying while the men bowed their heads.

(ca. 0:22)

She might have been quite another type of QM other than Queen Mary, but these kind of things seemed to matter a lot to her!
That was the same as it had been done for Queen Ingrid, who was always greeted with curtsies by female family members except Margrethe and Anne-Marie who is also a Queen.
All Queens (no matter "consort" or not) bear the title of a "Majesty". And with that goes the prerogative of being curtsied. If this tradition or protocol is being performed or not depends on the RF itself. In England, however, these things still seem to be very important - at least within the family circle itself!

 

[JessRWilson]

There has been debate over bowing and curtsying being 'subservient' or 'showing obediance'. Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't have a real problem with the action being performed for that reason..if they are members of the royal family of your nation at least. They represent your nation and you recognize their reign over you, so show them you are a loyal subject..to their family, and to the nation.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

There has been debate over bowing and curtsying being 'subservient' or 'showing obediance'. Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't have a real problem with the action being performed for that reason..if they are members of the royal family of your nation at least. They represent your nation and you recognize their reign over you, so show them you are a loyal subject..to their family, and to the nation.

It baffles me that anno 2018 you consider yourself "a subject" rather than a proud, independent citizen of Great-Britain. But soit, everyone his or her own preference of course. But my point is: someone giving a nice decent normal handshake to Her Majesty can manifest as a more loyal and trustworthy compatriot than another one whom cracks her knees in the deepest révérence...

Remember John Brown. A stubborn hard-headed unwilling person whom missed natural elegance and finesse in bowing, kissing hands, Your Majesty this, Your Majesty that. He became a true friend of Queen Victoria.

In the end it is an empty gesture which does not really reveal the true adherence and loyalty. Remember that Judas kissed Jesus before he traitored him... It is all theatre. The one going down and walking backwards in utter adoration can be the most vile backstabber. The one whom unwillingly offers a minimal handshake can be a Rock on which the monarchy thrives.

 

[MARG]

I think you have to understand what each individual person's unique background is. Elizabeth has been my queen all my life. Should I have met her I would have courtsied as a mark of my deep and abiding respect.
I have met Charles and I curtsied as a mark of respect.
The thing is that to me that is what we do.

Different traditions for differing countries. I giggled when H&M were on the balcony and they had lip readers telling us that Harry was trying to get Meghan to turn around. Instead of saying they were obviously fighting, they should have picked up that "My Country Is Of Thee" might be a patriotic song but she has not been around long enough to recognise the colonies nicked the music for it from the British national anthem. That recognition of "God Save the Queen" is not yet automatically recognised as her new national anthem. So, unlike the rest of the balcony she didn't automatically about turn and snap to attention.

You see if a visitor did that we would politely overlook it just as HM did with Barak Obama at a State Banquet. It is not his N.A. and like Meghan, he took time to realise what happened.

Traditions of other countries are to be accepted as normal for for the people of those countries and neither they nor their country should be held up to ridicule. To call them empty gestures os your personal opinion. You are entitled to it, but IMHO you merely display a rudeness and arrogance at odds with your intellect.

 

[Dman]

I don’t think any other news organisation has covered this as extensively as the DM with over 100 photos including the very dramatic photo of a big deep deep curtsey of welcome from what seems a John Lewis partner (not called an employee!) which is at odds with the company’s egalitarian ethos and as one commentator put it:
“I used to be a proper royalist but an elderly woman curtseying to someone who's husband is sixth in line to the throne is just wrong on so many levels in the 21st century. Starting to turn republican I think.”

Perhaps someone should tell the older commentator that it’s not mandatory for anyone to curtsy to senior royals. It’s all down to personal preference.

 

[Dalriada]

Perhaps someone should tell the older commentator that it’s not mandatory for anyone to curtsy to senior royals. It’s all down to personal preference.

There lies the cultural divergence of age and deference to monarchy during upbringing. Just because royal protocol says it is all voluntary nowadays does not completely exonerate the misplaced guilt attached to older generations’s own perceived duty to bend and bend down further on knee.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I don’t think any other news organisation has covered this as extensively as the DM with over 100 photos including the very dramatic photo of a big deep deep curtsey of welcome from what seems a John Lewis partner (not called an employee!) which is at odds with the company’s egalitarian ethos and as one commentator put it:
“I used to be a proper royalist but an elderly woman curtseying to someone who's husband is sixth in line to the throne is just wrong on so many levels in the 21st century. Starting to turn republican I think.”

The commentator doesn't have to curtsy to Meghan if they choose not to do so.

The not-so-very-old woman (definitely NOT elderly!) really only gave a slight courtesy curtsy as she shook Meghan's hand. No different than many others do when greeting a royal. I don't get the outrage.

There lies the cultural divergence of age and deference to monarchy during upbringing. Just because royal protocol says it is all voluntary nowadays does not completely exonerate the misplaced guilt attached to older generations’s own perceived duty to bend and bend down further on knee.

Oh good grief. The outrage on behalf of an executive from John Lewis & Partners (that's the company's name) for giving a slight curtsy to Meghan is pretty funny.

 

[Dalriada]

The commentator doesn't have to curtsy to Meghan if they choose not to do so.

The not-so-very-old woman (definitely NOT elderly!) really only gave a slight courtesy curtsy as she shook Meghan's hand. No different than many others do when greeting a royal. I don't get the outrage.



Oh good grief. The outrage on behalf of an executive from John Lewis for giving a slight curtsy to Meghan is
pretty funny.

Deep deep as deep can be! Just like our own prime minister’s curtsy which was heavily criticised who actually had a role and a duty to serve. I ask posters to study the DM photo of the deep curtsey.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Deep deep as deep can be! Just like our own prime minister’s curtsy which was heavily criticised who actually had a role and a duty to serve. I ask posters to study the DM photo of the deep curtsey.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/0...n_Lewis_this_afternoon-a-27_1568303053016.jpg

Eye of the beholder...

 

[Pranter]

Looks like a normal curtesy to me ...video would probably clarify things. Certainly not the deep type we see given to the Queen etc.



LaRae

 

[ACO]

Here is a video. It looked like a pretty normal one to me.

 

[Duchessblack]

It did not seem that deep to me either. But as was said above, its all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Dman]

It was a nice respectable ‘bob’ and that’s perfectly fine. The royals don’t judge you based on whether you give them a curtsy or not. Some choose to give a curtsy (deep or not) when they greet a senior royal and some choose to not give a curtsy at all. It’s all perfectly fine.

 

[Durham]

It was a nice respectable ‘bob’ and that’s perfectly fine. The royals don’t judge you based on whether you give them a curtsy or not. Some choose to give a curtsy (deep or not) when they greet a senior royal and some choose to not give a curtsy at all. It’s all perfectly fine.

This reminds me of that wonderful line from the film The Queen:

"I don't measure the depth of a curtsy I leave that to my sister"

I must admit I don't like it when people don't greet the monarch in the traditional manner but as for the rest I have no opinion either way.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Here is a video. It looked like a pretty normal one to me.

Yes, just a little dip.

 

[VictoriaB]

I found this interview with Alistair Bruce who is historical adviser on Downton Abbey (and equerry to the Earl of Wessex). Towards the end of the article he talks about curtseying and the difference between a "housemaid's bob" and a real curtsey.

Apparently, Lady Susan Hussey has one of the best curtseys.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/l...ownton-abbey-historical-advisor-royal-family/

 

[SLV]

Thank you for posting. It was very interesting to read.
I haven't seen the series, or the film. Perhaps one day, when I have time and energy left in the evenings.

 

[MissPeach77]

Kate and curtseying

I have read that as Duchess, Kate has to bow to blood born princesses (ex. Eugenie and Beatrice), but when she becomes Queen Consort will they have to then bow to Kate?

 

[MissPeach77]

Not only Americans, but also people from all other countries are not required to bow to anyone. There is no international law that punishes people who don't bow to royals.

An American may bow if he or she wants to, but this choice is available to all the people of the world.

Is there a law that punishes people in the UK for not bowing to the Queen?

 

[JR76]

Is there a law that punishes people in the UK for not bowing to the Queen?

No, there isn't.

 

[Mey]

I have read that as Duchess, Kate has to bow to blood born princesses (ex. Eugenie and Beatrice), but when she becomes Queen Consort will they have to then bow to Kate?

Yes. She will be the top woman of the court.

 

[Dman]

I have read that as Duchess, Kate has to bow to blood born princesses (ex. Eugenie and Beatrice), but when she becomes Queen Consort will they have to then bow to Kate?

When Catherine becomes Queen Consort (yes) Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie will curtsy to Catherine.

The young royals don’t bow and curtsy to each other.

 

[Osipi]

To add to Dman's response, its also good to know that actually bowing and curtsying is a choice and not a requirement. This applies to the general public.

If you see all the royals gathered at an event and see some bowing and curtsying to the Queen and some of them not, the chances are the the ones that refrain from curtsying to the Queen in public saw her earlier and did it then. The rule of thumb for a royal family member is one does a curtsy the first time they see the Queen and they're good for the rest of the day. So if William and Kate went to Balmoral (or were staying there), they most likely have seen the Queen at home and not at the arrival of a church service. If Charles and Camilla were staying at Birkhall (on the Balmoral estate) and came from there to the church, it would be the first time of the day they saw her and would pay their respects outside of the church. ?