Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia


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... Nazis to achieve their inhuman goals, how "scientifically" founded their findings about the Jewish and other "underling" were at a first glance. How science was used to achive goals that were based in completely other motives... war technology research like Wernher von Braun ... employed their own concentration camp with enslaved people to build their prototypes in the wartime in Peenemuende and later in Dora.
Surely you can see the difference between research done by scientists actively promoting the Nazi ideology and research done by scientists in universities and elsewhere (not concentration camps) with no totalitarian state agenda imposed upon them?

The argument that Nazi research can bring into question the results of the 1991 analysis (and maybe the current investigation) is drawing a very long bow indeed.
 
In a way all this controversy is making me smile, I remember another forum about something completely different and it started to get a bit heated.
One of the posters said something that I can´t help finding amusing. He said that if anyone thought that the forum was starting to get personal they ought to have belonged to the dog fanciers forum he had belonged to before, he said THERE they really got savage......I wonder if there is much controversy on the Ornamental fish fanciers forum.....
Please don´t misunderstand what I am saying, I feel very strongly about finding out the truth about the IF family but I really feel that we already know most of it and can rule out someone, who ín my humble opinion was an outright impostor (whether she meant to be or not) AA.
 
I just wonder, how do identical ears and identical bilateral congenital Hallus Valgus stack up against DNA from a putative sample? At least, we know that the feet and ears were at least attached to her body.
 
I guess you could also question the roundness of the earth since the horizon appears flat.
 
Who said I am "devalueing" his results? I am asking who he was. Please don't tell me that it isn't right to question his results when he is anonymous. For all I know "DaveK" could be anyone. If you wish to quote someone as an authority on any subject, then you should tell us who they are . If you don't know his real name, then say so.

His name was Dave and his last initial was K. That's more of a real name than "Ferrymansdaughter" or "Anna was Franziska." If he chose not to reveal his entire identity and his place of employment on a message board and set himself up for possible harassment, who can blame him? This doesn't devalue what he said or figured out. I haven't seen anyone disprove it.

If you all would be interested and the mods don't think it would clog up the forum, I'd like to post some legal precedence cases that proves the testing done on AA HAS held up in court. (technically, anything can be called 'putative' and anyone could allege a switch, but proving it is something else)
 
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Surely you can see the difference between research done by scientists actively promoting the Nazi ideology and research done by scientists in universities and elsewhere (not concentration camps) with no totalitarian state agenda imposed upon them?

I was trying to be polite and mentioned examples from my own country.

You will be able to find other examples from other countries as well when it comes to genetical or medical research, and not only cases where scientists decided to ignore the laws imposed on them by democratic states in order to be able to conduct their research. It happens all around the world, thankfully not on a daily basis but it happens. Science and moral are not automatically linked, just as being a human being and being a moral being is not automatically linked. If it was that way, we'd live in a much better place.

Maybe one should read this article carefully: From BMJ 1994;308(6924):283 (29 January) - BMJ being the British Medical Journal. I hope this is a source which qualifies as "serious":
The scandal of poor medical research -- Altman 308 (6924): 283 -- BMJ

"The scandal of poor medical research

We need less research, better research, and research done for the right reasons.

What should we think about a doctor who uses the wrong treatment, either wilfully or through ignorance, or who uses the right treatment wrongly (such as by giving the wrong dose of a drug)? Most people would agree that such behaviour was unprofessional, arguably unethical, and certainly unacceptable.
What, then, should we think about researchers who use the wrong techniques (either wilfully or in ignorance), use the right techniques wrongly, misinterpret their results, report their results selectively, cite the literature selectively, and draw unjustified conclusions? We should be appalled. Yet numerous studies of the medical literature, in both general and specialist journals, have shown that all of the above phenomena are common.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 This is surely a scandal.
When I tell friends outside medicine that many papers published in medical journals are misleading because of methodological weaknesses they are rightly shocked. Huge sums of money are spent annually on research that is seriously flawed through the use of inappropriate designs, unrepresentative samples, small samples, incorrect methods of analysis, and faulty interpretation. Errors are so varied that a whole book on the topic,7 valuable as it is, is not comprehensive; in any case, many of those who make the errors are unlikely to read it."

If you'd care to follow the link, you'll see that the author D G Altman, a reknown scientist, gives various published sources for his statements. Some posters here make it sound as if such errors are very, very rare and that it's absurd or offending to even think about such a possibility. But Altman states:

"The effects of the pressure to publish may be seen most clearly in the increase in scientific fraud,10 much of which is relatively minor and is likely to escape detection. There is nothing new about the message of data or of data torture, as it has recently been called11 - Charles Babbage described its different forms as long ago as 1830.12 The temptation to behave dishonestly is surely far greater now, when all too often the main reason for a piece of research seems to be to lengthen a researcher's curriculum vitae. Bailar suggested that there may be greater danger to the public welfare from statistical dishonesty than from almost any other form of dishonesty.13 Evaluation of the scientific quality of research papers often falls to statisticians. Responsible medical journals invest considerable effort in getting papers refereed by statisticians; however, few papers are rejected solely on statistical grounds.14 Unfortunately, many journals use little or no statistical refereeing - bad papers are easy to publish."

Maybe you are able to accept now that it's not just Jo of Palatine's scientist husband and some of her contacts who believe that there are motives around to write in order to publish papers with questionable results? That a high-profile topic, which would do more than just lengthen the author's CV, may give an even higher motivation. That a case where results cannot be checked independantly afterwards for lack of samples would make it easier.

All that is written and thought of by me in general about the question of errors in scientific publishing, not as a judgment of the paper discussed here but as background knowledge that should be taken into account on evaluating the question if one DNA-analysis outweighs other facts that were reported by convincing sources including pictures like the rare occurance of a foot deformation which both AN and AA shared.

My point is simple: I don't discard the question if AN became AA on the base of that DNA-results alone. Others may do that. Okay. But still I'm convinced that I have the right to put background information from reliable sources into my reasoning, that I have a right to write about these reasonings in a thread called "Questions of Identity" and that I have a right to defend myself from accusations that I'm a dealer in "sly innuendos". I wonder what Prof. Altman is then?
 
I just wonder, how do identical ears and identical bilateral congenital Hallus Valgus stack up against DNA from a putative sample? At least, we know that the feet and ears were at least attached to her body.

Since we have nothing but photos to go on, as far as the ears and the hallux valgus are concerned, I don't see why this is so valuable. Do you know the exact angle of Anastasia's hallux valgus? So far all I've seen is some vague reference to "severe." As for the ears, this is sounding like the "identical face" claim you were making - some experts believe they're identical and some apparently don't. Again, we only have photos, and not very high-resolution ones at that. So I don't think it's in any way appropriate to try and tout these particular avenues of investigation as being more valuable than DNA testing.

In post 401 you referred to Anna Anderson and Anastasia having the same hair colour. Another poster (post 314) has said that someone claimed they didn't have the same hair colour. So these definitive statements from you that this was identical and that was identical seem to be being challenged at every turn, suggesting that there's a fair bit of wiggle room in the "they were identical" statements.
 
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Jo, I asked a simple question. In a previous post you threw out the possibility of mtDNA inheritance through the father. I gave a list of loci and their nucleotides for Anna Anderson, Prince Philip, and the putative Tsar and Tsarina and asked you if the nucleotides were consistent with paternal inheritance. Yet another long screed about scientific fraud and unscrupulous scientists is not an answer. Nor is a vague "my geneticist friend laughed at the idea," especially considering that these results were hardly the work of some two-bit postdoc at Podunk University but were the work of mtDNA experts.

Either those nucleotide assignments are consistent with paternal mtDNA inheritance or they aren't. If they aren't, then this particular objection of yours is irrelevant. My feeling (and it's just a feeling, since I'm by no means an expert) is that a case where three of five nucleotides don't match suggests that paternal mtDNA inheritance isn't a factor. But if your geneticist friend has more details about how this much mismatch between the sample from Anna Anderson and the samples from the putative Tsar and Tsarina could in fact indicate paternal mtDNA inheritance, please feel free to give us some details.

As for this continuing "scientists aren't perfect" stuff - I know they aren't, and I've been asking again and again what it has to do with this particular case. Yes, I know there were some highly questionable scientists during the Nazi era, as well as regular scientists doing unethical things for fear of their lives. Same thing was going on in the USSR while Trofim Lysenko was trying to do a King Canute on the topic of Darwinian evolution. And the BMJ article is correct in that the pressure to publish large numbers of papers has led to people publishing pretty worthless stuff simply to pad their publication statistics. However, I assume you aren't going to discount every scientific advance ever made because some scientists are dishonest. So I'm wondering why you're doing it in this case, when (as far as I know) there have been no allegations of misconduct against any of these scientists, except for the accusations in the Knight paper, which didn't involve the Anderson samples, and which seem to be more of a scientific disagreement than a whistle-blowing accusation of misconduct. You keep saying that there's no way to check the results obtained in this study. Most allegations of fraud are investigated by looking at lab notebooks and other places where results were written down; I assume that could be done in this case if someone wanted to challenge the results by laying a formal accusation of scientific misconduct against the researchers. As for not being able to replicate the results, it sounds from the Nat Genet paper that not all of the bowel sample was used in this study so there should still be some of the sample left, both in the labs of the scientists who did the study and in the hospital. Presumably Prince Philip could give another blood sample, and the latest techniques could be used to analyse both of them.
 
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Jo, speaking of Nazi scientists who had odd ideas and played by their own rules, did you ever consider some of them were the 'experts' in the AA trial? Otto Reche for example:

Otto Reche

This is a commentary by someone who did extensive research on Reche and his work. He was discredited by his own peers, the worst thing that can happen to a scientist's credibility:
(I must) point out the scientific fallacies upon which your claims and evidence are based. Otto Reche is a good example of this - here we have a nazi by choice and inclination, whose work was so bad that persons such as Robert Procter, Hermann Graml, Edith Zerbin- Rudin, Stephen Gould and Robert Leakey have discredited it. I explained why in more than one post, as I explained why anthromorphic photo comparison is a subjective science with a narrow degree of scientific certainty, no matter how many graphs, charts and measurements he might have had. It doesn't matter how many graphs and measurements he had, if the foundation has been taken away, does it? Advances in the science of mtdna recovery alone, has proven that his foundational base, his sampling of "long headed Europeans" is false. among other factors such as age, the His photographic "proof" is also false - photo comparison cannot account for the thickness of muscle, fat, skin or bone,among other factors such as age,mechanics of photography and printing and other variables involved in photographic comparison.

There were several of these Nazi anthropologists who were revered at the time, but now criticized. On the history channel they tell of a team of them who traveled to Tibet in the 1930's and 'proved' by facial life masks that the Tibetians were really descendants of aryan Germans from the Rhine Valley. This was one of Hitler's pet theories, however, it is now known to be false. So these Nazis were not as respectable, reliable and accurate as Anderson supporters will have you believe. Therefore, doubt is cast on their 'identification' of Anna Anderson being an 'identical twin' of Anastasia.

In 1961, German judges basically threw out Reche's facial identification of AA as AN, and declared her claim to be AN 'unfounded' and her identity as FS 'eminently likely'
 
Since we have nothing but photos to go on, as far as the ears and the hallux valgus are concerned, I don't see why this is so valuable. Do you know the exact angle of Anastasia's hallux valgus? So far all I've seen is some vague reference to "severe."

According to Dr. Rudnev, the hallux valgus was so severe it could only have been congenital. And bilateral congenital hallux valgus is, to my knowledge, a very rare affliction. I don't think impostors in general get that lucky. As far as the ears go, see program on NOVA where a more recent test was undertaken, and the ears came out identical. (I think there is a photo from that test on PeterKurth.com/notes on Franziska Schanzkowska.)

As for the ears, this is sounding like the "identical face" claim you were making - some experts believe they're identical and some apparently don't.

And which experts are disputing that they are identical?

Again, we only have photos, and not very high-resolution ones at that. So I don't think it's in any way appropriate to try and tout these particular avenues of investigation as being more valuable than DNA testing.

As long as the chain of custody for the samples providing the DNA is a bit shady, I think that all the evidence that came before has to be taken into consideration.

In post 401 you referred to Anna Anderson and Anastasia having the same hair colour. Another poster (post 314) has said that someone claimed they didn't have the same hair colour. So these definitive statements from you that this was identical and that was identical seem to be being challenged at every turn, suggesting that there's a fair bit of wiggle room in the "they were identical" statements.

Buxhoeveden said it was a bit lighter, Olga said it was a bit darker, but with the same wave. The Botkins said it was the same color. Franziska was described by her brother Felix to have "dark blonde hair". Also, according to Felix, his sister always wore her hair in a long braid and was a bit curly in front.
 
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Jo, speaking of Nazi scientists who had odd ideas and played by their own rules, did you ever consider some of them were the 'experts' in the AA trial? Otto Reche for example:

Otto Reche

This is a commentary by someone who did extensive research on Reche and his work. He was discredited by his own peers, the worst thing that can happen to a scientist's credibility:
(I must) point out the scientific fallacies upon which your claims and evidence are based. Otto Reche is a good example of this - here we have a nazi by choice and inclination, whose work was so bad that persons such as Robert Procter, Hermann Graml, Edith Zerbin- Rudin, Stephen Gould and Robert Leakey have discredited it. I explained why in more than one post, as I explained why anthromorphic photo comparison is a subjective science with a narrow degree of scientific certainty, no matter how many graphs, charts and measurements he might have had. It doesn't matter how many graphs and measurements he had, if the foundation has been taken away, does it? Advances in the science of mtdna recovery alone, has proven that his foundational base, his sampling of "long headed Europeans" is false. among other factors such as age, the His photographic "proof" is also false - photo comparison cannot account for the thickness of muscle, fat, skin or bone,among other factors such as age,mechanics of photography and printing and other variables involved in photographic comparison.

There were several of these Nazi anthropologists who were revered at the time, but now criticized. On the history channel they tell of a team of them who traveled to Tibet in the 1930's and 'proved' by facial life masks that the Tibetians were really descendants of aryan Germans from the Rhine Valley. This was one of Hitler's pet theories, however, it is now known to be false. So these Nazis were not as respectable, reliable and accurate as Anderson supporters will have you believe. Therefore, doubt is cast on their 'identification' of Anna Anderson being an 'identical twin' of Anastasia.

You seem to forget that Dr. Gill's findings were also disputed by Dr. Knight and a team of Japanese scientists. Nobody has said that photographic comparison is an exact science. All we know, is that Reche had AA photographed from the same angles and in the same lighting as the older photos of AN. And his conclusion was that AA is AN. AA is not FS.

In 1961, German judges basically threw out Reche's facial identification of AA as AN, and declared her claim to be AN 'unfounded' and her identity as FS 'eminently likely'

The judges did not "throw out" anything, they just decided not to listen to their own appointed experts, Otto Reche and Minna Becker.
We still have the opinions from professors Eyckhardt, Klenke and Furtmayr. Plus the result of the graphological test from Lucy Weizsacker. All in favor of AA being AN.
 
I guess you could also question the roundness of the earth since the horizon appears flat.

Oh, but then you never lived at the Norther side of a long lake which leads to the Alps like the Ammersee where I live. here you can see exactly that roundness of the Earth covers a lot of things under the flat horizon while the mountains in the back are clearly to be seen.

But then: how can someone who allegedly lives with his head "down under" have the same view on perspective that we have? :D
 
You seem to forget that Dr. Gill's findings were also disputed by Dr. Knight and a team of Japanese scientists.

Knight was basically working to back up the writer who backs the Alexei claimant who lived in Canada, and his work has been proven inaccurate to say the least. The Japanese used only a bloody rag that had been around for a hundred years, where anything and anyone could have contaminated it. (not like the intestine which was carefully stored in parafin wax)

Nobody has said that photographic comparison is an exact science.All we know, is that Reche had AA photographed from the same angles and in the same lighting as the older photos of AN. And his conclusion was that AA is AN. AA is not FS.
And he was wrong. And his work has been discredited by many scientists. Again PEER REVIEW is what makes or breaks a scientist, and the scientists involved in the Romanov and AA cases had their work approved by their peers, Knight and Reche did not.


The judges did not "throw out" anything, they just decided not to listen to their own appointed experts, Otto Reche and Minna Becker.
Are you saying they did it because of some conspiracy? They did not accept the evidence because they saw it was inaccurate and/or poorly done.

We still have the opinions from professors Eyckhardt, Klenke and Furtmayr. Plus the result of the graphological test from Lucy Weizsacker. All in favor of AA being AN.
Furtmayr, wasn't he the one who used Maria's ear and from the wrong side? The others, weren't they Nazis too?

NONE of this holds up against the DNA.
 
Not to deny any scientific demonstration or any serious study, it's so obvious that Anna Anderson is not Anastasia or any Romanov. The pictures talk by themselves. Just look at the eyes ; much too wide for AA. The ear lobe is thicker than Anastasia's and as the eyes, that can't be changed by "a heavy blow to your face", like I've read in a previous page to justify the difference with the lips.
 
Knight was basically working to back up the writer who backs the Alexei claimant who lived in Canada, and his work has been proven inaccurate to say the least. The Japanese used only a bloody rag that had been around for a hundred years, where anything and anyone could have contaminated it. (not like the intestine which was carefully stored in parafin wax)

Knight was WHAT??
And we are not talking about the intestine here.

And he was wrong. And his work has been discredited by many scientists. Again PEER REVIEW is what makes or breaks a scientist, and the scientists involved in the Romanov and AA cases had their work approved by their peers, Knight and Reche did not.

Maybe you could quote some of those who "discredited" his work.


Are you saying they did it because of some conspiracy? They did not accept the evidence because they saw it was inaccurate and/or poorly done.

And what are your sources for this, if I may?

Furtmayr, wasn't he the one who used Maria's ear and from the wrong side? The others, weren't they Nazis too?

No, Furtmayr was the one who used AA's ear to compare against AN's ear.
"The others" did their study in the 1930's.

NONE of this holds up against the DNA.

And you are, of course, the resident expert on this.
 
According to Dr. Rudnev, the hallux valgus was so severe it could only have been congenital. And bilateral congenital hallux valgus is, to my knowledge, a very rare affliction. I don't think impostors in general get that lucky.

It happened, because AA was FS. Lots of people have the same disorder, not all of them related!

As far as the ears go, see program on NOVA where a more recent test was undertaken, and the ears came out identical. (I think there is a photo from that test on PeterKurth.com/notes on Franziska Schanzkowska.)
They came out a close match, but they were shadowy black and white pictures so we'll never know for sure what AN's ears really looked like.


And which experts are disputing that they are identical?
I question all of them. Just looking at the photos the bone structure is so far off it makes me think they were either blind or promised money by Grandanor corporation (the company started by Botkin and Fallows that sold shares to be paid when/if AA was awarded her 'inheritance.') Also don't forget that Oxlee, using more modern methods, found an 'identical' match between AA and FS.

As long as the chain of custody for the samples providing the DNA is a bit shady, I think that all the evidence that came before has to be taken into consideration.
WHAT chain of custody questions? You still haven't explained when you think it got switched and with what and by who.

Buxhoeveden said it was a bit lighter, Olga said it was a bit darker, but with the same wave. The Botkins said it was the same color. Franziska was described by her brother Felix to have "dark blonde hair". Also, according to Felix, his sister always wore her hair in a long braid and was a bit curly in front.
Hair color is subjective to the eye of the beholder, and insignifcant because it can be changed so easily. Once he also told me somebody said her hair was 'almost black.' Even easier than changing colors is changing styles. So what if she was reported to have had a braid down her back, it only takes a few seconds to change it to a bun. Britney Spears shaved her entire head in about a minute. So hair really doesn't mean anything.
 
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Not to deny any scientific demonstration or any serious study, it's so obvious that Anna Anderson is not Anastasia or any Romanov. The pictures talk by themselves.

Yes, they do. They show an uncanny likeness.

Just look at the eyes ; much too wide for AA. The ear lobe is thicker than Anastasia's and as the eyes, that can't be changed by "a heavy blow to your face", like I've read in a previous page to justify the difference with the lips.

Funny, isn't it, that even Gilliard could not deny that AA and AN had the same eyes.
 
Yes, they do. They show an uncanny likeness.

They have very different faces.



Funny, isn't it, that even Gilliard could not deny that AA and AN had the same eyes.

You're the one who always calls Gilliard a 'liar!' So he's not a 'liar' when he says something you like? How do you know he wasn't 'lying' when he said that?
 
Yes, they do. They show an uncanny likeness.

To which I answer :
And you are, of course, the resident expert on this.

How can you deny science in such a way ? Of course there's a margin of error but come on, she disappeared the same year FS did. And DNA is still very reliable.
 
According to Dr. Rudnev, the hallux valgus was so severe it could only have been congenital. And bilateral congenital hallux valgus is, to my knowledge, a very rare affliction. I don't think impostors in general get that lucky. As far as the ears go, see program on NOVA where a more recent test was undertaken, and the ears came out identical. (I think there is a photo from that test on PeterKurth.com/notes on Franziska Schanzkowska.)

As far as I can tell from reading about hallux valgus, most cases are congenital; I don't think the degree of severity has to do with the etiology. It also appears that bilateral hallux valgus isn't that rare. However, I've seen allegations on these threads by both you and BorisRom that it's an extremely rare condition, so maybe you could link to the source which is telling you this.

From what I could find on the NOVA programme, not all the experts agreed on the ear analysis. It seems to be an old enough programme that there's no transcript available, unfortunately.

And which experts are disputing that they are identical?

The ones that people on the other side of this issue are referring to.


As long as the chain of custody for the samples providing the DNA is a bit shady, I think that all the evidence that came before has to be taken into consideration.

However, this evidence appears to be both rather subjective and somewhat overstated. If the two of them had hallux valgus but with different angles or with the angles unknown, if there are conflicts among experts on matters of facial or ear matches, if there are disagreements between friends and acquaintances on hair and eye colour, then all this evidence starts looking distinctly shaky.

On the other hand, the chain-of-custody arguments regarding the DNA still don't explain how two different samples, from different sources and analysed in different labs, ended up giving the same results.


Buxhoeveden said it was a bit lighter, Olga said it was a bit darker, but with the same wave. The Botkins said it was the same color. Franziska was described by her brother Felix to have "dark blonde hair". Also, according to Felix, his sister always wore her hair in a long braid and was a bit curly in front.

And this is the basis for the flat-out "same hair colour" assertions? Blimey...
 
They have very different faces.

Actually I think some of the photos of Anastasia show a remarkable likeness to some of the photos of Anna Anderson. However, I wouldn't want to draw any major conclusions from that, since some of the photos don't seem to show much of a likeness.
 
You seem to forget that Dr. Gill's findings were also disputed by Dr. Knight and a team of Japanese scientists. Nobody has said that photographic comparison is an exact science. All we know, is that Reche had AA photographed from the same angles and in the same lighting as the older photos of AN. And his conclusion was that AA is AN. AA is not FS.

Dr Gill's findings on Anastasia were not disputed by Dr Knight, at least as far as I've been able to find out, although I'm sure you'll be able to point us to the relevant information if it exists. Dr Knight was disputing the findings in the case of the remains purported to be those of the imperial family, not the findings in the Anderson case.
 
It happened, because AA was FS. Lots of people have the same disorder, not all of them related!

I am talking bilateral congenital Hallux Valgus here, not your garden variety bunions. CONGENITAL BILATERAL HALLUX VALGUS

They came out a close match, but they were shadowy black and white pictures so we'll never know for sure what AN's ears really looked like.

They came out with a perfect match, 5 out of 5.


I question all of them. Just looking at the photos the bone structure is so far off it makes me think they were either blind or promised money by Grandanor corporation (the company started by Botkin and Fallows that sold shares to be paid when/if AA was awarded her 'inheritance.') Also don't forget that Oxlee, using more modern methods, found an 'identical' match between AA and FS.

Somehow, I don't think you are an expert on bone structure. And Botkin had absolutely nothing to do with "Grandanor", he and AA were not on speaking terms by the time Fallows instigated the corporation, and he would not see AA again for 10 years.

WHAT chain of custody questions? You still haven't explained when you think it got switched and with what and by who.

It could have been as simple as mislabeling, but I refuse to speculate here.

Hair color is subjective to the eye of the beholder, and insignifcant because it can be changed so easily. Once he also told me somebody said her hair was 'almost black.'

It was Franzisca's hair that was described as dark, almost black.

Even easier than changing colors is changing styles. So what if she was reported to have had a braid down her back, it only takes a few seconds to change it to a bun. Britney Spears shaved her entire head in about a minute. So hair really doesn't mean anything.

Right. And the curls in front were probably straightened out in the beauty parlor at Dalldorf.
 
Dr Gill's findings on Anastasia were not disputed by Dr Knight, at least as far as I've been able to find out, although I'm sure you'll be able to point us to the relevant information if it exists. Dr Knight was disputing the findings in the case of the remains purported to be those of the imperial family, not the findings in the Anderson case.


Correct. All I wanted, was to show F is A that many scientists findings are disputed by others.
 
They have very different faces.

That's only your opinion.

You're the one who always calls Gilliard a 'liar!' So he's not a 'liar' when he says something you like? How do you know he wasn't 'lying' when he said that?

Why on earth would he admit any likeness after having established himself as AA's public enemy number one?
 
As far as I can tell from reading about hallux valgus, most cases are congenital; I don't think the degree of severity has to do with the etiology. It also appears that bilateral hallux valgus isn't that rare. However, I've seen allegations on these threads by both you and BorisRom that it's an extremely rare condition, so maybe you could link to the source which is telling you this.

CONGENITAL BILATERAL HALLUX VALGUS

From what I could find on the NOVA programme, not all the experts agreed on the ear analysis. It seems to be an old enough programme that there's no transcript available, unfortunately.
The ones that people on the other side of this issue are referring to.

Names, please.

However, this evidence appears to be both rather subjective and somewhat overstated. If the two of them had hallux valgus but with different angles or with the angles unknown, if there are conflicts among experts on matters of facial or ear matches, if there are disagreements between friends and acquaintances on hair and eye colour, then all this evidence starts looking distinctly shaky.

There is no conflicts about her eye color, the only one who said that she had grey eyes, was Gibbes, who also described Maria's blue eyes as "nice grey".
And there are really no disagreement of the haircolor, Olga just thought it looked a little darker.

On the other hand, the chain-of-custody arguments regarding the DNA still don't explain how two different samples, from different sources and analysed in different labs, ended up giving the same results.

I actually agree with you there, believe it or not.
 
I am talking bilateral congenital Hallux Valgus here, not your garden variety bunions. CONGENITAL BILATERAL HALLUX VALGUS

How do you know the Dr. was right or honest? She may have gotten the bunions standing up at the munitions factory.

They came out with a perfect match, 5 out of 5.
Blurry pictures. She sure didn't get 5 points on that DNA test.


Somehow, I don't think you are an expert on bone structure.

Then I defer to Oxlee.

And Botkin had absolutely nothing to do with "Grandanor", he and AA were not on speaking terms by the time Fallows instigated the corporation, and he would not see AA again for 10 years.

Oh yes he did, it's well documented he was in on starting it, even helped pick the name. He's the one who enlisted Fallows.

It could have been as simple as mislabeling, but I refuse to speculate here.
Because you have NO answers other than you want AA to be AN.


Right. And the curls in front were probably straightened out in the beauty parlor at Dalldorf.
Or they could have been curled with a curling iron and she stopped. Or it could have been a lie. Either way it doesn't matter, hair is too easy to change. You can see in the pic of FS her hair was parted on the side exactly like AA's.
 
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His name was Dave and his last initial was K. That's more of a real name than "Ferrymansdaughter" or "Anna was Franziska." If he chose not to reveal his entire identity and his place of employment on a message board and set himself up for possible harassment, who can blame him?
Indeed! I have been on the receiving end of somebody not happy with my posts about Anna Anderson/Anastasia/others involved and have had that person post my personal information on the Internet. So I don't fault DaveK or FerrymansDaughter or Anna was Franziska for wanting a degree of anonyminity on this volatile subject!
 
Just wanted to say that I've been caught up by my family who demand time with me and so can't answer right now. But that I found Elspeth's post very interesting!:flowers:
 
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