Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Current Events 2: April-September 2020

[Durham]

Let's take one example of a history of something going way far back into history to present an argument that, to this day, hasn't been resolved. Its one object that could fit in the palm of someone's hand. What is it? The Kohinoor diamond of course that is one of the brightest jewels in the British jewelry box.


https://www.rediff.com/news/interview/the-kohinoor-was-not-gifted-to-the-british/20160419.htm

A prime example of the sensitivities around issues of empire. There are plenty more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes

Not so much a can but a barrel of worms.

 

[Curryong]

Harry is not going to be Ceremonial Head of the Commonwealth. Charles will be. So what to make of Charles's remarks to a woman of colour from Manchester?



https://www.theguardian.com/world/c...rown-skin-british-people-head-of-commonwealth

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Perhaps reflections on Prince Charles' words from two years in the past are best suited to threads dedicated to The Prince of Wales.

 

[Eskimo]

I’ve been watching twitter exchanges today between journalist Andrew Neil and numerous members of the public where he raised a good point repeatedly.

The message from Henry and Meghan was one of forgiveness, but what does the commonwealth specifically have to ask forgiveness for?

The Commonwealth is not the British Empire which is an institution that has a lot to apologise for, it’s been highlighted many times in this thread.

The Commonwealth is a completely voluntary organisation, which was formed from both the remnants of the British Empire and non-colonial countries as well. Countries have requested to be part of this organisation. A lot of British colonialism is being projected onto The Commonwealth perhaps because of its links to the BRF, when actually I don’t think they have anything to ask forgiveness for.

Could they encourage conversations about topics that aren’t widely discussed? Absolutely. I think they are doing so and will continue to.

Harry probably can't tell the difference and Meghan does not know the difference

 

[Curryong]

The Commonwealth developed from the old Empire and at least in some of the white realms like Australia and NZ customs and attitudes towards indegenous people continued on into the 20th century, long after independence.

I mentioned two in a former post with regard to my country Australia, the conditions under which Kooris were employed on outback stations until the 1960s (and things like separate swimming pools in some outback towns) and the issue of South Pacific Islanders being imported to work for very poor pay in terrible conditions in the Sugar cane fields of Queensland.

Canada's govt decisions regarding its indigenous population has also been problematic well into recent history and India still had struggles with its Caste system ie Untouchables, long after 1948.

 

[poppy7]

The Commonwealth developed from the old Empire and at least in some of the white realms like Australia and NZ customs and attitudes towards indegenous people continued on into the 20th century, long after independence.

I mentioned two in a former post with regard to my country Australia, the conditions under which Kooris were employed on outback stations until the 1960s (and things like separate swimming pools in some outback towns) and the issue of South Pacific Islanders being imported to work for very poor pay in terrible conditions in the Sugar cane fields of Queensland.

Canada's govt decisions regarding its indigenous population has also been problematic well into recent history and India still had struggles with its Caste system ie Untouchables, long after 1948.

I would argue that that may not necessarily be what was meant. It wasn't directly caused by the colonisers but by the settlers. Who themselves came from many places. What they are tslking about is largely the policies the British implemented themselves in many countries tries and largely they are talking about slavery a brutal polcies of subjugation.

You can't be blaming the Empire for settlers racism against indigenous populations. That is the process of immigration. So again, they really didn't know what they were talking about.



l

 

[Denville]

Never once heard it attributed to Nelson. But if he did say it Wellington had a point. He spent a large part of his childhood in Belgium.

Nationality itself is a 19th century construct. And the way various European countries created the nation state is fascinating and has left divisions in most countries to this day. From the railroading French who declared have your personal life but you are all French now, to Bismarck and his wars.

Nationality is itself a social construct. Much like race.

I will always remember my history teacher saying
We didnt have it so bad. We could have had the Belgians...which leads me to think we were looking at colonisation in Africa at the time.

But you know yet again, I don't need to hear Harry talking about looking at the past to move forward. Countries have been doing that for ever. And doing it very well. The Aussies never stop apologising.

No I've never heard it attributed to Nelson. It wouldn't make sense but it would if it was said about or by the Duke of Wellington. and there were many Anglo Irish who identified as Irish, but also had a connection with England. I agree that apologies' as to put it bluntly of little value. Anyone can apologize for the sins of their ancestors, but what is needed is a way to make things better in the present. But I dont expect solutions from Harry so I think he would be better to draw back a little and concentrate on some practical help for people with problems and in need...

 

[muriel]

I’ve been watching twitter exchanges today between journalist Andrew Neil and numerous members of the public where he raised a good point repeatedly.

The message from Henry and Meghan was one of forgiveness, but what does the commonwealth specifically have to ask forgiveness for?

The Commonwealth is not the British Empire which is an institution that has a lot to apologise for, it’s been highlighted many times in this thread.

The Commonwealth is a completely voluntary organisation, which was formed from both the remnants of the British Empire and non-colonial countries as well. Countries have requested to be part of this organisation. A lot of British colonialism is being projected onto The Commonwealth perhaps because of its links to the BRF, when actually I don’t think they have anything to ask forgiveness for.

Could they encourage conversations about topics that aren’t widely discussed? Absolutely. I think they are doing so and will continue to.

Well siad @Lumutqueen. I, too, have been watching the twitter exchanges with Andrew Neil, whi makes a very valid point.

 

[Alison H]

More helpfully, Harry has spoken (by Zoom link) at the 2020 AIDS conference, praising the resilience of people living with HIV and AIDS.

 

[muriel]

The question that keeps coming back to me is if a Commonwelath role of any kind is compatabile with a "free" Harry and Meghan. Their direction of travel is clear, and it may well be in their interest to be free to pursue the causes that may be important to them, and the platforms they want to espouse their causes. The Commonwealth, IMO, is inexorably linked to the BRF, in a way that H&M have chosen not to in the future.

 

[Denville]

The question that keeps coming back to me is if a Commonwelath role of any kind is compatabile with a "free" Harry and Meghan. Their direction of travel is clear, and it may well be in their interest to be free to pursue the causes that may be important to them, and the platforms they want to espouse their causes. The Commonwealth, IMO, is inexorably linked to the BRF, in a way that H&M have chosen not to in the future.

yes I think its not tenable. Even if this is a charity and a discussion forum, it is still linked with the Commonwealth and Meg and Harry are now living in the USA and IMO on a different path.

 

[poppy7]

yes I think its not tenable. Even if this is a charity and a discussion forum, it is still linked with the Commonwealth and Meg and Harry are now living in the USA and IMO on a different path.

I agree. I think sadly the thought may have been to train Harry up to be the head of the Commonwealth after his father, as he played a larger royal in it than William. Which actually I think would have been fantastic but I think now is the time they moved on from that.

 

[Osipi]

Then again, its rumored that their organization/foundation will be called Archewell Global Foundation and that the Sussexes do plan on retaining the British charities and patronages that they've taken on such as SmartWorks, Mayhew, Hubb Kitchen and Harry's personal endeavors.

I don't expect them to drop QCT at all. But that's just me.

 

[muriel]

Then again, its rumored that their organization/foundation will be called Archewell Global Foundation and that the Sussexes do plan on retaining the British charities and patronages that they've taken on such as SmartWorks, Mayhew, Hubb Kitchen and Harry's personal endeavors.

I don't expect them to drop QCT at all. But that's just me.

They can retain their UK charitable interests, if that is what they want.

However, my point is that perhaps Commonwealth related charities, because of their close linkage with the BRF, may perhaps be unsuitable for them if they no longer want to follow the party line. It will probably be for their best. H&M, on finding freedom, should be allowed to sing free, and support whatever cause they want to, and whatever platform they deem appropriate, without the constrait of thinking how BP may view their actions.

 

[Denville]

I agree. I think sadly the thought may have been to train Harry up to be the head of the Commonwealth after his father, as he played a larger royal in it than William. Which actually I think would have been fantastic but I think now is the time they moved on from that.

I never thought it was the best idea, not that I thought that Meghan and H would actually walk out, but I just felt that she was not experienced enough about the RF or royal duties and it wouldn't work out that well when Harry was also volatile. And now, they wanted freedom to choose their own charities, to take on things and points of view that were their own, rather than abide by the restrictions of royal conventions...so I dont know why they kept the Commonwealth Trust at all.

 

[Osipi]

Perhaps this is why the "year in review" is put into place. To see how things go. After the year passes, it may be decided that the QCT is not a right fit for H&M and be rescinded. We'll just have to wait and see what develops. They may even extend the "review" window due to the pandemic.

 

[Denville]

I think the year's review was because the RF hoped/believed that they'd come back... that they might not find Canada or N Amer or a new non royal life as good as they'd hoped. And I'm sure that with the loss of working royals, they hoped to be able to put them back to work.. but I dont think ti would go very well. And it seems like they want to have the freedom to say more things that will not fit in with royal neutrality and things which will make them less than popular.. so better that they drop this role.

 

[muriel]

I think the year's review was because the RF hoped/believed that they'd come back... that they might not find Canada or N Amer or a new non royal life as good as they'd hoped. And I'm sure that with the loss of working royals, they hoped to be able to put them back to work.. but I dont think ti would go very well. And it seems like they want to have the freedom to say more things that will not fit in with royal neutrality and things which will make them less than popular.. so better that they drop this role.

I just do not see there being a realistic chance of H&M returning to the BRF now; I fear they have burnt far too many bridges already.

 

[Osipi]

Its no wonder that bridge crashed and burned. It wasn't a sturdy bridge to cross over on to start with. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[muriel]

Its no wonder that bridge crashed and burned. It wasn't a sturdy bridge to cross over on to start with. Let the chips fall where they may.

Or perhaps, an act of complete idiocy! ?

 

[Eskimo]

The question that keeps coming back to me is if a Commonwelath role of any kind is compatabile with a "free" Harry and Meghan. Their direction of travel is clear, and it may well be in their interest to be free to pursue the causes that may be important to them, and the platforms they want to espouse their causes. The Commonwealth, IMO, is inexorably linked to the BRF, in a way that H&M have chosen not to in the future.

IMO, they have nothing to "sell" except their connection to the BRF. So, they need to do things that are associated with the BRF in people's minds to remind everyone that they are a part of the BRF. That was the reason for the half in half out plan--they have no serious opportunities to become "financially independent" without exploiting their connection to the BRF

 

[poppy7]

IMO, they have nothing to "sell" except their connection to the BRF. So, they need to do things that are associated with the BRF in people's minds to remind everyone that they are a part of the BRF. That was the reason for the half in half out plan--they have no serious opportunities to become "financially independent" without exploiting their connection to the BRF

No they. I thought they may get a year. Now I think it is up. Life will be different. With different charity issues too.

 

[Curryong]

One of the young participants (from the Bahamas) in the QCT video discussion speaks of how she felt about Harry and Meghan's participation.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/s...rince-harry-racial-justice-call-calm-comment/

 

[poppy7]

One of the young participants (from the Bahamas) in the QCT video discussion speaks of how she felt about Harry and Meghan's participation.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/s...rince-harry-racial-justice-call-calm-comment/

She is rather misinformed herself. It is not the first time the royal family spoke on these issues and it highlihts the futility of these two being anything other Ghana royal.

 

[Curryong]

She was actually there, she is associated with the QCT and participated in the conference as a young future leader of the Commonwealth. As she was a person who interacted with the couple her POV on the matter is of some importance. Except of course when you don't like two of the speakers, apparently.

The BRF don't own the Commonwealth. Yes, the Queen is a tremendously well respected Ceremonial Head of the organisation. And Charles will follow her in due course. After him, who knows. The majority of member countries of the Commonwealth are republics and in the new reign IMO a number of the realms will almost certainly join them, including Australia, my country.

 

[QueenMathilde]

IMO, they have nothing to "sell" except their connection to the BRF. So, they need to do things that are associated with the BRF in people's minds to remind everyone that they are a part of the BRF. That was the reason for the half in half out plan--they have no serious opportunities to become "financially independent" without exploiting their connection to the BRF

I don't see how the BRF are going to be able to get by letting them keep their titles to sell. They're going to have to take steps to turn them back into Mr. and Mrs. Markle.

 

[Osipi]

I don't think its all that much of a big deal. They are who they are and part of that is being members of the BRF. Don't you think that if the Queen didn't want them associated *at all* with the family, she would have taken away the QCT. The limitations of not using their titles for commercial or business ventures was stated clearly. How was the conference for the QCT in any way business or commercial? Meghan is the vice-president. Harry is the president and the Queen is the patron. That tells me that continuing with the QCT is not great big no-no in the Queen's eyes.

This current event had nothing to do with "The Firm". Meghan was not representing the Queen. Where's the problem?

 

[Curryong]

I agree with you Osipi. Also it would be extremely unlikely that Prince Harry would end up as Mr ....... He was born a son of the Prince of Wales, one of only two, and was born a Prince, a styling he keeps for life.

And as I posted earlier, at least one of the participants at the QCT video call appreciated the Sussexes stance on the issues raised. I've actually been on a discussion with several citizens of Commonwealth countries, including myself and quite a few people from African nations in the Commonwealth as well as two of Maori descent from NZ, agreed with Harry.

 

[poppy7]

She was actually there, she is associated with the QCT and participated in the conference as a young future leader of the Commonwealth. As she was a person who interacted with the couple her POV on the matter is of some importance. Except of course when you don't like two of the speakers, apparently.

The BRF don't own the Commonwealth. Yes, the Queen is a tremendously well respected Ceremonial Head of the organisation. And Charles will follow her in due course. After him, who knows. The majority of member countries of the Commonwealth are republics and in the new reign IMO a number of the realms will almost certainly join them, including Australia, my country.

My point was she referred to them as royal, when they are supposed to not represent the royals anymore. She also made claims which are not tru. It is the not the first time a member of the Royal family has spoken about the wrongs of Empire. Prince Charles for one. But she is young and the world began yesterday in her mind. That isn't a criticism just the way people thing.

No one is going great to disagree with what Harry said but loads and loads of people havery said it. So he just made platitudes, when speaking about his own experiences whould be far more worthy of respect.

 

[tommy100]

My only issue is that they referred to the past of the "Commonwealth" - they may have meant 'those countries in the Commonwealth" or the "Empire that went before the Commonwealth' but I can't see lots of evidence that the Commonwealth has had issues with racism itself, if anything I can see lots of evidence that the Commonwealth has tried to be a force for good in terms of racism and equal rights.

Of course there was serious racism and imperialism in the old Empire. That deserves being talked about in its own right but confusing the two doesn't help.