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-   -   General Swedish Royalty Facts, Discussion and Questions (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f22/general-swedish-royalty-facts-discussion-and-questions-8936.html)

Queen Claude 06-24-2019 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2234026)
None taken, but the question stated "up to the time of their marriages". :flowers:

<snip>

I would still appreciate an answer to whether Princesses Margaretha, Märtha, and Astrid, their brother Prince Carl, and Prince Lennart worked for the monarchy up to the time of their marriages.

I get that you specified up until the time of their marriage but I am replying that the somewhat youngish ages that the princes married was such that they weren't likely doing anything of consequence vocationally and their unequal marriages lost them their positions in the Swedish Royal Family. Even the heirs apparent and children of the monarch don't appear to have been enlisted to work for the monarchy in their early/mid-twenties. Hopefully someone with a deep knowledge of Swedish Royal history can answer your question but if it turns out that they did work for the monarch I don't see it as a relevant precedent.


ETA:
I see that you did get a reply to your question.

Quote:

Perhaps, but Prince Carl Philip and his wife and children are currently treated less in line with Princess Madeleine and her husband and children, and more in line with Crown Princess Victoria and her husband and children. Current sensibilities are not the only rationale in the royal family's decisions, as shown by King Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, for example.
I am not seeing that Carl Philip and his family are treated more in line with the Crown Princess Family. I think that the misalignment between the Prince and Princess Families, such that it is, is due to the Princess Family not being based in Sweden.

As far as Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, I recall there being a comment where he disagreed with the equal primogeniture law being applied retroactively. Personally I disagree with his disagreement but I don't interpret it to mean he opposed equal primogeniture. He also supposedly said that Swedes prefer a male on the throne, which I thought was a goofy thing for someone who touted himself "of the times" to assert, but I later read that the court denied the comment, or so I recall.

Tatiana Maria 06-25-2019 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Claude (Post 2234048)
I get that you specified up until the time of their marriage but I am replying that the somewhat youngish ages that the princes married was such that they weren't likely doing anything of consequence vocationally and their unequal marriages lost them their positions in the Swedish Royal Family. Even the heirs apparent and children of the monarch don't appear to have been enlisted to work for the monarchy in their early/mid-twenties.

Thank you for the explanation; what you are saying becomes clear to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Claude (Post 2234048)
I am not seeing that Carl Philip and his family are treated more in line with the Crown Princess Family. I think that the misalignment between the Prince and Princess Families, such that it is, is due to the Princess Family not being based in Sweden.

I can see your viewpoint, however, it appears to me that even when available in Sweden the Princess Family is treated as lower in rank than the Prince Family, for instance by taking part in fewer appearances during the recent Korean visit and the births of Princess Adrienne and Prince Nicolas being communicated through press releases rather than the news conferences held for the births of Prince Gabriel and Prince Alexander.

As for comparison to the Crown Princess Family: The King bestowed the single duchy that confers the usufruct of a royal estate on Prince Alexander rather than a child of the Crown Princess Family, and in certain official appearances Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia have taken precedence over Prince Daniel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Claude (Post 2234048)
As far as Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, I recall there being a comment where he disagreed with the equal primogeniture law being applied retroactively. Personally I disagree with his disagreement but I don't interpret it to mean he opposed equal primogeniture. He also supposedly said that Swedes prefer a male on the throne, which I thought was a goofy thing for someone who touted himself "of the times" to assert, but I later read that the court denied the comment, or so I recall.

It is certain that King Carl XVI Gustaf stated his opposition to equal primogeniture in the 1970s and 1980s, when it already held the support of a majority of the elected members of parliament. Even the official recommendations which the Royal Court, under his leadership, put to the parliamentary commission in the 1970s called for parliament to accept the Danish and British arrangement as an alternative to equal primogeniture.

https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-...nfoljd_G10371/

The King's comment in a Swedish newspaper that "I would prefer that my son Carl Philip is my successor, and I'm sure that the majority of the Swedish people would prefer to have a king on the throne" was never denied or rescinded, although after the passing of two decades the court's spokeswoman sought to dismiss the scrutiny on it.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...html#post49452

LadyFinn 07-02-2019 12:41 PM

Jewel theft, fraud and counterfeit banknotes. Riots and evil sudden death. The royal history is filled with piquant stories. And now we have collected these stories in a very unique specialty magazine. With historian Herman Lindqvist as cicerone, Svensk Damtidning takes the readers on an exciting journey in time and space, from Gustav Vasa's days and right up to our own time. With customary enthusiasm, Herman Lindqvist invites stories that are both hair-raising and fascinating.
Our 100-page specialty magazine is filled with captivating stories that last long. Here you will find classics such as the story of the murder of Gustav III, but also more unexpected stories like the one about the woman who lived well on claiming that she was Gustav IV Adolf's unknown daughter. Of course, we also tell about the tragic jewel theft that hit Princess Christina a few years ago.
Köp unikt magasin om kungliga kriminalfall _ Svensk Damtidning

Tatiana Maria 10-13-2019 08:06 PM

Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]

Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?

Countessmeout 10-13-2019 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2260318)
Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]

Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?



It simply says that those in the royal house are members of the House of Bernadotte. Just like those who are working royals in the UK are in the house of Windsor.

Does that mean that those who are not in the royal house are not Bernadottes? No. As my critical thinking teacher would say, all Salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon. All members of the Swedish royal house are Bernadottes, but not all Bernadottes are members of the royal house.


The distinction is simply to what we already see in the Netherlands and Spain for instance. Where there are those who are members of the 'royal house' aka working royals, and those who while members of the royal family, no longer or never did belong to the royal house. Meaning they don't officially represent the country in any real capacity.

theroyalfly 10-13-2019 11:13 PM

Of course all of them are part of the House of Bernadotte. They are just making a line between members of the Royal House and members of the Royal Family.

LadyFinn 10-13-2019 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2260318)
Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]

Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?

At the english page the members who don't belong to the Royal House are not listed at the House of Bernadotte:
Royal Family - Sveriges Kungahus

They are members of The Bernadotte Dynasty
The Bernadotte Dynasty - Sveriges Kungahus

And at the swedish website the same thing, those who are not members of Det Kungliga Huset, are members of Ätten Bernadotte
Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus
Ätten Bernadotte, släktträd - Sveriges Kungahus

JR76 10-13-2019 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2260318)
Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]

Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?

Kungahus & Kungliga Huset means exactly the same as does Kungafamiljen & Kungliga Familjen. In both cases the former is a bit more modern and informal than the latter.

Tatiana Maria 10-14-2019 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyFinn (Post 2260339)
At the english page the members who don't belong to the Royal House are not listed at the House of Bernadotte:
Royal Family - Sveriges Kungahus

They are members of The Bernadotte Dynasty
The Bernadotte Dynasty - Sveriges Kungahus

And at the swedish website the same thing, those who are not members of Det Kungliga Huset, are members of Ätten Bernadotte
Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus
Ätten Bernadotte, släktträd - Sveriges Kungahus

Thank you for pointing this out.
The website is confusing. Doesn't House mean the same thing as Dynasty? And I have seen "ätten" be translated as "house".

JR76 10-14-2019 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2260428)
Thank you for pointing this out.
The website is confusing. Doesn't House mean the same thing as Dynasty? And I have seen "ätten" be translated as "house".

A dynasty can consist of several houses. For instance the Capetian dynasty consists of many related houses such as Valois, Bourbon, Braganca, Orleans etc.
Ätt and house is in most cases the same, yes.

Tatiana Maria 10-14-2019 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 2260433)
A dynasty can consist of several houses. For instance the Capetian dynasty consists of many related houses such as Valois, Bourbon, Braganca, Orleans etc.
Ätt and house is in most cases the same, yes.

It seems to have a different meaning to the Court since the English pages indicate that all members of the House of Bernadotte are also members of the Bernadotte Dynasty (but not vice versa), rather than the House being a branch of the Dynasty. Hopefully, it is simply a confusing translation of Det Kungliga Huset.

JR76 10-14-2019 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2260448)
It seems to have a different meaning to the Court since the English pages indicate that all members of the House of Bernadotte are also members of the Bernadotte Dynasty (but not vice versa), rather than the House being a branch of the Dynasty. Hopefully, it is simply a confusing translation of Det Kungliga Huset.

But that's actually technically right. According to the traditional way of counting descent agnatically everyone in the House of Bernadotte are members of the Bernadotte dynasty but those members of said dynasty through cognatic descent aren't members of the House of Bernadotte.
That said I'm sure that you're right and this is just an awkward translation.

Tatiana Maria 10-14-2019 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 2260450)
But that's actually technically right. According to the traditional way of counting descent agnatically everyone in the House of Bernadotte are members of the Bernadotte dynasty but those members of said dynasty through cognatic descent aren't members of the House of Bernadotte.
That said I'm sure that you're right and this is just an awkward translation.

But if the Court felt that the traditional agnatic way of counting membership of a House was the right way, it would not have counted Estelle and Oscar as members of "The House of Bernadotte" or excluded Alexander and Gabriel from the listing. I'm inclined to agree now that it is probably just an awkward translation, as The Wayback Machine shows that it was formerly translated even more confusingly as The Royal Court - perhaps the Court is not aware that the phrase Royal House is available in English as well as Swedish.

Tatiana Maria 12-02-2019 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyFinn (Post 2269118)
The classic prince consort role, that's what applies to Prince Daniel when he makes an official entrance with his wife.
He always goes three steps behind when needed and he is always sharp to how he can support Victoria in her role as a heir to the throne and future head of state.
[...]
Vi avslöjar! Prins Daniels okända sidor _ Svensk Dam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2271610)
Nonetheless, Prince Daniel of Sweden for example always walks behind Crown Princess Victoria in public events.

Is this something done by the other consorts, or does it apply only to Prince Daniel? How strictly is it enforced?


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