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BeatrixFan 10-27-2005 05:26 PM

Gay Kings and Queens
 
In the Prince William forum, we have been discussing what would be the public reaction if William was to declare that he is in fact homosexual. If he said, "Well - Kate's just a friend and we tried to cover up but I don't want to so I'll be your first openly gay King" - what would you say? Would it affect his ability to rule?

This isn't a new thing of course - Prince George, Duke of Kent was well known for his relationship with Noel Coward and there have been many gay Kings over the past.

How would society take it and how would the reign be affected by the revelation?

ysbel 10-27-2005 05:32 PM

Well if he were openly gay, I think there would be a problem. But as long as he married a nice girl and had a son to inherit the throne, I don't think people would mind if he decided to follow his natural inclinations (of course as long as he conducted himself with discretion) The girl might mind though.

The problem with Edward II is that kings of England had real power, it was the Middle ages, and he did not conduct himself with discretion.

Smilla 10-27-2005 05:32 PM

Great, beatrixfan!
Thanks for opening this thread; it's an interesting topic.

I read Amanda Foreman's biography of Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire, who was a close friend of Marie Antoinette of France. Foreman claims that in the 18th century, there was a highly charged erotic atmosphere among the women at the French court, including kissing and tearful hugs among the queen and her favourites. Foreman says that this atmosphere was not necessarily regarded as "lesbian", but simply as "feminine".
I'll try to dig up some more information.

windsor the troll 10-27-2005 06:04 PM

I read a book on Royal Scandals and it claimed that Queen Anne had a lesbian affair with Lady Churchill I think it was.
I suppose her husband, Prince George, was only there to help produce an heir - he failed.

Zonk 10-27-2005 06:04 PM

BeatrixFan...you must be reading my mind...I thought about the same question while reading a thread about Princess Christina's son.

In this day and age...I would imagine it would be very hard to be gay and a heir to the throne if for no other reason that how would you provide an heir? In vitro? Are you honest with your wife....I am gay, and I care about you but I need to provide an heir! Also, the ramfications within the church would be a problem.

Also, these are just my general thoughts..not trying to come across as homophobic or anything.

Elspeth 10-27-2005 06:06 PM

I don't think an openly gay crown prince or king would be able to marry; it'd be seen as a marriage of convenience like Charles's, and the notion of a wife who acts as a hired uterus and is compensated with a cushy lifestyle and some children while the king goes off with his lover (of whatever sex) is going to be a hard sell in the future. As far as younger brothers, I don't see a problem with an openly gay lifestyle; it's better than secrecy and media speculation.

It'd be interesting to see if the public would accept a gay monarch, knowing that he wouldn't have children to inherit, or if there'd be pressure for the non-gay sibling who was the parent of the heir presumptive to take over.

Elspeth 10-27-2005 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysbel
The problem with Edward II is that kings of England had real power, it was the Middle ages, and he did not conduct himself with discretion.

If we had a prize for understatement of the month, I think the above would be a clear winner!

Smilla 10-27-2005 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk1189
that how would you provide an heir?

I'm not convinced that this would be THE big problem. Just imagine that Princess Victoria turns out to be infertile or just doesn't get married. Her brother and sister's children would be next in line to the throne, and the problem would be solved neatly. The same could be done in the case of a gay king.

lashinka2002 10-27-2005 06:09 PM

I think the acceptance of a gay King could be possible in about 30 years.
The public just isn't ready for it yet IMO.

branchg 10-27-2005 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
In the Prince William forum, we have been discussing what would be the public reaction if William was to declare that he is in fact homosexual. If he said, "Well - Kate's just a friend and we tried to cover up but I don't want to so I'll be your first openly gay King" - what would you say? Would it affect his ability to rule?

This isn't a new thing of course - Prince George, Duke of Kent was well known for his relationship with Noel Coward and there have been many gay Kings over the past.

How would society take it and how would the reign be affected by the revelation?

Well, he certainly wouldn't be the first or last major figure to be gay, so I doubt in today's globalized and more sophisticated society, anyone would be shocked to learn of it. However, whether the conservative elements of British society, including devout Anglicians, would accept a Head of the Church of England as a gay man is highly doubtful.

My guess is William would follow the dictates of his world and marry an appropriate woman to produce an heir. If he had something going on the side with a man, that would be OK provided there was no public disclosure about it and his Consort accepted the marriage as part of her duty. Whether this is realistic in a modern society is another matter altogether.

The reign would become clouded under the public disclosure, but he probably could go on eventually.

Zonk 10-27-2005 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilla
I'm not convinced that this would be THE big problem. Just imagine that Princess Victoria turns out to be infertile or just doesn't get married. Her brother and sister's children would be next in line to the throne, and the problem would be solved neatly. The same could be done in the case of a gay king.

True...as long there are other heirs in the line of succession. then providing the heir would not be a big deal. But I guess the bigger question is....would be the public be open to a gay heir. And I don't think they will.

Iain 10-27-2005 06:17 PM

I once read that King Gutav adolf of Sweden was homosexual but as he was married twice I don't know if that is true. Also, when Norway became independent the throne was to be offered to Prince Waldemar of Denmark (uncle of Prince Carl who was to become King Haakon) but it was discovered that he was in an incestuous relationship with one of his own nephews (a Greek prince).

windsor the troll 10-27-2005 06:18 PM

It's possible that there is a constitutional clause which prevents an openly gay monarch from taking the throne.
I am not too clear on the 1701 Act of Settlement but did it not declare that the Monarch would have to be protestant? Or was it just anti Catholic? If he or she were openly gay, could the church not reject them stripping them of protestant credentials needed to succeed?

Smilla 10-27-2005 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princesslinda
It's possible that there is a constitutional clause which prevents an openly gay monarch from taking the throne.
I am not too clear on the 1701 Act of Settlement but did it not declare that the Monarch would have to be protestant? Or was it just anti Catholic? If he or she were openly gay, could the church not reject them stripping them of protestant credentials needed to succeed?

That's an interesting questions. As far as I know, at least the Catholic church hasn't excommunicated anybody for being gay. (Even though they think it's unnatural and an illness). I don't know about protestants.

branchg 10-27-2005 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain
I once read that King Gutav adolf of Sweden was homoexual but as he was married twice I don't know if that is true. Also, when Norway became independent the throne was to be offered to Prince Waldemar of Denmark (uncle of Prince Carl who was to become King Haakon) but it was discovered that he was in an incestuous relationship with one of his own nephews (a Greek prince).

Waldemar was in a lifetime relationship with his nephew, HRH Prince George of Greece and Denmark, son of the former Prince Wilhelm of Denmark who became King George I of the Hellenes. George married HIH Princess Marie Bonaparte, a very wealthy heiress who owned a large share of the casino in Monaco. She had affairs throughout their marriage as well.

branchg 10-27-2005 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princesslinda
It's possible that there is a constitutional clause which prevents an openly gay monarch from taking the throne.
I am not too clear on the 1701 Act of Settlement but did it not declare that the Monarch would have to be protestant? Or was it just anti Catholic? If he or she were openly gay, could the church not reject them stripping them of protestant credentials needed to succeed?

I don't think there is any legal standing to remove someone from the line of succession for being gay. Certainly not in the Act of Settlement. More likely, it would be another Edward VIII situation where the Prime Minister and the Archbishop of Canterbury would advise the King to abdicate for the sake of the nation. However, the Prime Minister would have to be sure the Cabinet and Parliamentary Council would support a resignation of the Government if the King did not accept the advice.

windsor the troll 10-27-2005 06:33 PM

If I'm not mistaken, there was a recent hate campaign against the Swedish Royals.
The King was accused of being homosexual as was his immediate family. It was the work of a hugely homophobic site connected to some extreme church.

I linked to the site out of interest and it was vulgar. Its hopefully the last time I will come across such an ill minded site.

BeatrixFan 10-27-2005 06:39 PM

Re:
 
Prince Carl-Philip was thought to be gay but it seems he's been adopted as a bit of a hunl by the Swedish Gay Community. Queen Silvia said that he was flattered by the attention.

branchg 10-27-2005 06:42 PM

In the progressive Scandinavian monarchies, I think the people would accept an openly gay sovereign. Possibly it would be OK in the Netherlands too. I doubt it would be accepted in Spain or Monaco (even though rumors about Prince Albert have been around for years).

Crown Prince Fredrik of Denmark has many gay friends and has always been very supportive of the gay community.

Smilla 10-27-2005 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg
Crown Prince Fredrik of Denmark has many gay friends and has always been very supportive of the gay community.

So has Haakoon of Norway. And didn't Mette-Marit actually hold a speech about the rights and problems of gay people?

Maxie 10-27-2005 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg
In the progressive Scandinavian monarchies, I think the people would accept an openly gay sovereign. Possibly it would be OK in the Netherlands too. I doubt it would be accepted in Spain or Monaco (even though rumors about Prince Albert have been around for years).

I think a openly gay king is possible in the Netherlands. But that's just my point of view as a young student with several gay friends. I don't know how other people would react to it.

Margrethe II 10-27-2005 07:28 PM

I just noticed this thread and haaaaad to have a browse!

I think its wonderful how the Scandinavian nations inparticluar have welcomed and embraced the gay communities so warmly. Its also very comforting to see how many royals are actually supportive of, and have many gay friends.

I think the homosexual movement has come a long way in recent years, but has a long, long way to go before it is accepted and respected for what it is, especially in the Roman Catholic nations. And who knows. It may never really be accepted!

Unfortunately, here in Australia the gay community does not share the same rights as that of the heterosexual community and it is (from what I have been exposed to) still finding it rather difficult to make that transition (of course having a homophobic Prime Minister does'nt help much).

Those who hold prejudiced views against us should realise that we ourselves are the result of a heterosexual union, so how are we so different from them?

Contrary to what people think, gay isnt a choice (those who claim to be Bi are just greedy.lol.). I know I had no say in the matter and had known from a very early age (early primary school) that I viewed things differently to the other boys.

So all I can say is that its the personality that makes a person, not their sexuality!

"MII"

BeatrixFan 10-27-2005 07:40 PM

Re:
 
Well said Margrethe II! I think that its a good thing that the Scandinavians seem to have a good attitude to the gay community - but how far does it extend? They may welcome the gay community but would they welcome a gay King or Queen as quickly?

I too knew of my orientation from primary school and so I think that it must be common for people to know from an early age. But the family could be just as big an issue for Royals as it is for commoners. I don't think the Queen would welcome a gay grandson at all - she's well known for being a devoted christian and loves tradition.

branchg 10-27-2005 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I don't think the Queen would welcome a gay grandson at all - she's well known for being a devoted christian and loves tradition.

I think the Queen is more progressive than people give her credit for. Yes, she takes her role as Monarch and Head of the Church very seriously. But, she is also well-known to have tolerated and accepted gay male servants for years, perhaps not quite to the extent her mother did, but tolerant nonetheless.

I know the Household is not the same as having a gay grandson, but I have to believe she would be supportive of her grandchildren no matter what.

Margrethe II 10-27-2005 08:11 PM

Which Quuen are we referring to here?

Elizabeth II or Margrethe II?

If Elizabeth, hen I beliee HM would be tolerant and understanding to the best of her ability.

Indeed, the Queen Mother did have a soft spot for her gay employees. I remember reading how she thought her gay staff to be well spoken, charming and could arrange a mean floral spray.lol. God love her!

"MII"

BeatrixFan 10-27-2005 08:14 PM

Re"
 
Quote:

But, she is also well-known to have tolerated and accepted gay male servants for years, perhaps not quite to the extent her mother did, but tolerant nonetheless
The Palace once had a policy only to employ gay footmen. They wouldn't leave to get married nor would they get the housemaids into trouble. George V hated the idea and once refused to knight a homosexual chap saying, "I do not knight buggers". The Queen allows her gay servants to bring their partners but she doesn't like to see men dancing together. She's not overkeen on gay women but she doesn't mind gay men.

The Queen Mother had a whole host of gay footmen running after her. The wonderful story goes that two obviously and well-known gay footmen are having a heated argument when the Queen Mother glided past and said, "When you two old queens are finished, do you think you could get this old queen a gin and tonic?"

Margrethe II 10-27-2005 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
The wonderful story goes that two obviously and well-known gay footmen are having a heated argument when the Queen Mother glided past and said, "When you two old queens are finished, do you think you could get this old queen a gin and tonic?"

HAHAHAHA Oh I love it "B"

"MII"

Royal Fan 10-28-2005 01:38 AM

Ive heard of the rumors about Albert of Monaco
have there been rumors about Joachim , Frederik , Felipe ,Willem - Alexander , William or Harry

grecka 10-28-2005 03:15 AM

I once read that Queen Mary II (as in the Mary of William and Mary) was actually in love with another woman when she was forced to marry Prince William of Orange and that she maintained a relationship with that woman for the rest of her life.

Margrethe II 10-28-2005 04:57 AM

Although not English, It was said that Her Majesty the Queen Consort Marie - Atoinette of France conducted a passionate love affair with her close friend and confidante, Madame de Polignac. So, history dictates that such rumours are not uncommon umongst the aristocratic circles of Europe and have been around for many centuries.

There is no doubt that Antoinette loved Madame and Madame her, but the likeliness of the two conducting an active lesbian relationship is most unlikely.

Such a shame that Polignac's influence over "the Austrian" proved to be most catastrophic.....

"MII"

Smilla 10-28-2005 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grecka
I once read that Queen Mary II (as in the Mary of William and Mary) was actually in love with another woman when she was forced to marry Prince William of Orange and that she maintained a relationship with that woman for the rest of her life.

Apparently King James was also gay - a fact which was publically known to the extent that somebody came up with the quip:
Rex fuit Elizabeth: nunc est regina Jacobus.
(Elizabeth was King; now James is Queen.)

It's wonderful to know that people lived their lives as they wished before stuffy Victorian moral codes shaped the way we look at history.

acid_rain3075 10-28-2005 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilla
Apparently King James was also gay - a fact which was publically known to the extent that somebody came up with the quip:
Rex fuit Elizabeth: nunc est regina Jacobus.
(Elizabeth was King; now James is Queen.)

It's wonderful to know that people lived their lives as they wished before stuffy Victorian moral codes shaped the way we look at history.

I'm sorry but that is so cool!:D I never knew that King James was gay!

Idriel 10-28-2005 08:47 AM

One more wonderful tread we have to thank Beatrix for...:D
Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg
I think the Queen is more progressive than people give her credit for.

I sure agree with you. I do not think she would be very upset by a gay grandson but she would be worried for the Monarchy IMO.
Beatrix said in another thread that young people were not as accepting as people think they are and it's quite true. As a 20 something, I will say that I'm always surprised by the relatively high degree of homophobia in my groupe age comparing to 30 something people I know who are more open-minded. Still I'm talking for France, I did not have discussion about that with my English friends yet.

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 09:02 AM

Re:
 
The English are very very backward when it comes to homosexuality. There are still people who describe one as being 'not of the marrying kind' and it's all very hush hush. There are the clubs and the communities and I think that until recently, Lord Frederik Windsor (son of Prince and Princess Michael) was on the board of G-A-Y. It's very much kept behind closed doors here and we still haven't got used to heterosexual couples kissing in the street, let along homosexual ones.

There's that wonderful saying, "The Duke of Kent is exceedingly bent" - it's origin coming from Prince George of course. He was having a passionate affair since his youth and all through his marriage with Sir Noel Coward. One night, a policeman saw two elderly women struggling along the street, bent over and laughing - obviously roaring drunk. He arrested them and took them to the police station. Suddenly, one of them took off her wig and revealed that she was in fact the son of King George V and Queen Mary. When the Prince died, Coward was beside himself and Marina actually asked him to the memorial service personally. She knew what was going on but she bore it all with good grace.

I think that the upper classes especially are rather stuffy and old-fashioned and of course, in the forces it would be a huge problem. All those butch men laughing in their messes at the gay Monarch. Of Course, they're the biggest hypocrits of them all with 'forced buggery' still being a huge problem. (And can I say to anyone who is offended at that, it's still the way they class male rape in the armed forces). Can you imagine the fun they'd have in the barracks if a gay Prince was bunking with them?

Smilla 10-28-2005 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idriel
As a 20 something, I will say that I'm always surprised by the relatively high degree of homophobia in my groupe age comparing to 30 something people I know who are more open-minded.

I believe the attitude towards homosexuality shifts a bit with age. From my experience as a teacher I can say that especially for young male teenagers homosexuality is the big no-no issue. If you really want to demolish somebody's reputation you call them "gay". Well, it's not as if they could say what was so bad about it, it's just some handed-down prejudice.
But when they get older, young men become more tolerant. Maybe they feel less threatened by then, I don't know. It's all very sad.

susan alicia 10-28-2005 10:26 AM

The husband of Marina was gay? Wonder if she knew before they married and whether she had lovers, it must have been a bit sad for her.

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 10:30 AM

Re:
 
Quote:

The husband of Marina was gay? Wonder if she knew before they married and whether she had lovers, it must have been a bit sad for her.
Apparantly she was made aware of George's sexuality by being told he was 'a bit flighty'. I think she just learned to live with it but she didn't have other lovers or partners. She threw herself into motherhood and when George was killed, she went into deep mourning and blamed herself for his 'condition'. Alexandra, Edward and Michael went to live with Queen Mary whilst Marina went through a deep depression.

Elspeth 10-28-2005 01:30 PM

According to a biography of Princess Marina, she had a long-term lover during her widowhood, but nothing was said about marital infidelity on her part. Mind you, she was only married for eight years and had three children in that time, so she didn't have a lot of time for dalliances.

I remember reading that Queen Victoria, when asked why an act of Parliament outlawing male homosexual activities didn't also include female homosexual activities, saying that it wasn't necessary because women didn't do that sort of thing. Apparently when she did her history lessons, the friendship between Queen Anne and Duchess of Marlborough was presented in a very platonic light! I wonder if she was told about "Mrs Freeman" and "Mrs Morley."

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 01:34 PM

Re:
 
Quote:

I remember reading that Queen Victoria, when asked why an act of Parliament outlawing male homosexual activities didn't also include female homosexual activities, saying that it wasn't necessary because women didn't do that sort of thing.
LOL! I love that. Maybe that explains the Royal Family's attitudes now. According to Brian Hoey, "The Royal Family are at great ease with their male homosexual staff but are not as accomodating to women of a similar persuasion".

Idriel 10-28-2005 03:10 PM

4th attempt! My computer is bogus today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I remember reading that Queen Victoria, when asked why an act of Parliament outlawing male homosexual activities didn't also include female homosexual activities, saying that it wasn't necessary because women didn't do that sort of thing. Apparently when she did her history lessons, the friendship between Queen Anne and Duchess of Marlborough was presented in a very platonic light! I wonder if she was told about "Mrs Freeman" and "Mrs Morley."

This remark turned out to be a blessing for lesbians. Their existance beeing totally ignored and their status not legally defined, they did enjoyed more liberty than their male counterparts who were hunted down like witches (see the Oscar Wilde trial).
Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think that the upper classes especially are rather stuffy and old-fashioned and of course, in the forces it would be a huge problem. All those butch men laughing in their messes at the gay Monarch. Of Course, they're the biggest hypocrits of them all with 'forced buggery' still being a huge problem.

I remember reading few articles about rapes in posh boy boarding schools (Eton included), but I wonder if it is still a huge issue as you say. I mean, compared to the 60's or 70's when it was nearly some initiatic stuff, a sort of fresher week 'joke':( )

About Kent. I believe homosexuality was the least of his "issues" (not that I suggest homosexuality is an issue, I have my gayfriendly member-card :D :p ). He was also a drunk and a drug-addict, or am I mistaken.

ysbel 10-28-2005 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idriel
About Kent. I believe homosexuality was the least of his "issues" (not that I suggest homosexuality is an issue, I have my gayfriendly member-card :D :p ). He was also a drunk and a drug-addict, or am I mistaken.

Yes Idriel, he had a severe cocaine problem at one point which makes me wonder why on earth Parliament would have ever considered passing over the Dukes of York and Gloucester to give him the crown of England. :confused: Luckily they rethought themselves and with the passing of the Duke at such a young age leaving young children it was definitely all for the best.

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 03:39 PM

Re:
 
Quote:

I remember reading few articles about rapes in posh boy boarding schools (Eton included), but I wonder if it is still a huge issue as you say
Well, I have it on good authority that it still goes on in public boarding schools but only between students and not teachers/students. Not that that makes it right, but you're correct in saying that it's seen as some strange initiation ceremony.

I have a cousin the army (currently in Iraq) who has said that it isn't unususal for someone to be raped in the barracks and it's generally written off as 'very hot, lack of contact with the opposite sex and a lack of sleep' - I wonder if any of the young Princes who attended naval school etc were subjected to the 'ritual'.

tiaraprin 10-28-2005 04:18 PM

It is an unmitigated shame that homosexuals and lesbians are still treated unfairly today. I don't see why everyone gets so upset. They are just like heterosexuals except for one difference.

One of my best friends is gay and when he told his grandfather, OH MY GOD!! The grandfather went crazy and told him he would go hell (the whole Bible thing run amok).

Personally, I think many gays and lesbians are born with this sexual orientation. Most know at a preschool age in some shape or form that they like the same sex not the opposite. I am hoping that someday there will be scientific evidence to prove this and I know it is being worked on.

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 04:21 PM

Re:
 
The Bible thing. A huge problem for those in religious families which makes me feel that if William was gay then the more devout members of his family really wouldn't like it all.

I'm a gay Catholic and it's maybe a conflict of lifestyles - I can't help but feel that this would be similar for a gay Monarch.

windsor the troll 10-28-2005 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
It is an unmitigated shame that homosexuals and lesbians are still treated unfairly today. I don't see why everyone gets so upset. They are just like heterosexuals except for one difference.

One of my best friends is gay and when he told his grandfather, OH MY GOD!! The grandfather went crazy and told him he would go hell (the whole Bible thing run amok).

Personally, I think many gays and lesbians are born with this sexual orientation. Most know at a preschool age in some shape or form that they like the same sex not the opposite. I am hoping that someday there will be scientific evidence to prove this and I know it is being worked on.

I watched a documentary about gay sheep (it wasn't solely about gay sheep:D ) and aparently gay sheep's brains are smaller than normal sheep brains (this sounds completely homophobic). They concluded that homosexuality was not a choice but cause by a slight brain deformity.

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 04:43 PM

Re:
 
Quote:

They concluded that homosexuality was not a choice but cause by a slight brain deformity.
Quite true. Thats why I've never been able to wear hats.

windsor the troll 10-28-2005 04:48 PM

I wasn't meaning to sound rude there.

Sorry if it sounded offensive.

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 04:49 PM

Re:
 
Not at all! I was being sarcastic ;) Serves me right for trying to be clever m'dear

Idriel 10-28-2005 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Quite true. Thats why I've never been able to wear hats.

:D :D Killing! You should maybe consider borrowing some hats from the Duchess. From what I can see hers are hugely roomy and can adapt to the oddest head-shape.
BTW, I don't know where this thread is going but I have a hell lot of fun.

Princesslinda, beware of those pseudo discoveries made on animals which are blunty adapted to human behavior. And I have yet to see a gay sheep.

Trying to get back a bit on subject, according to this website:

King Edward II loved Piers Gaveston
James I loved Esme Stuart, Duke of Lennox and George Villiers, Duke of Buckingham, and many others

Queen Anne loved Sarah Jennings

BeatrixFan 10-28-2005 06:40 PM

Re:
 
Quote:

You should maybe consider borrowing some hats from the Duchess. From what I can see hers are hugely roomy and can adapt to the oddest head-shape.
Definately. I think Queen Beatrix could lend me a hat or two. Wasn't Alfred the Great supposed to have been gay?

Francis Osbourne said re: James I

“The love the King showed men was amorously conveyed as if he had mistaken their sex and thought them ladies, which I have seen Somerset and Buckingham labour to resemble in the effeminateness of their dressings; though in whorish looks and wanton gestures they exceeded any part of womankind my conversation did ever cope withal. Nor was his love, or whatever posterity will please to call it… carried on with a discretion sufficient to cover a less scandalous behaviour; for the king’s kissing them after so lascivious a mode in public, and upon the theatre, as it were, of the world, prompted many to imagine some things done in the tiring house that exceed my expressions no less than they do my experience, and therefore left them upon the waves of conjecture, which hath in my hearing tossed them from one side to another.”

Kissing men at the theatre? James the First was a luvvie - who knew?

Margrethe II 10-28-2005 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princesslinda
They concluded that homosexuality was not a choice but cause by a slight brain deformity


Not so much a deformity as it is a chemical imbalance of the brain, or so they say. Who knows...They have even done research on gay flies!! Um yeah....ok.

Did I hear hats? Well, we are about to have the Melbourne Cup (biggest Horse racing event in the southern hemisphere) on Tuesday and now they have all the deisgner hats and fascinators out and all I can do is walk past and just look, knowing that I would give anything to just wear them once!!! And the clothes....dont even get me started.

WOW, quite a lot of Hows ya Father royals are'nt there?

People (in general) must remember that homosexuality was apparent in society even before christ. The Romans would use the spa's to get "aquainted" with members of the same sex very often, having left their wife and countless numbers children at home.

"MII"

"B", I could'nt help but notice your avatar is of our one and only Dame Edna from Moonee Ponds.lol. Love it!!!

Bellefleur 10-29-2005 03:25 AM

A homosexual King or Queen!?!
 
A homosexual King or Queen = BIG PROBLEMS!

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellefleur
A homosexual King or Queen = BIG PROBLEMS!

Care to elaborate?

"MII"

Smilla 10-29-2005 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idriel

That gay sheep is hilarious! The only thing that's missing is a hat.

James I actually was quite open about his love for men. I'll try to dig up one or two quotations.

I'm sure that's common knowledge, but homosexuality was quite an accepted way of life in Ancient Greece, even before the Romans. You were supposed to move on to women, though, but they were not thought to be as half as interesting or esthetically pleasing as a beautiful young man.

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilla
I'm sure that's common knowledge, but homosexuality was quite an accepted way of life in Ancient Greece, even before the Romans. You were supposed to move on to women, though, but they were not thought to be as half as interesting or esthetically pleasing as a beautiful young man.

Ancient Greece, thats the one. Dont know why I said Romans before Greeks. My bad?

Move onto women? yeah right.lol. Never! I dont recall ever hearing how they were "supposed" to move onto women. One makes it sound like moving from an entrée to the main.

"MII"

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 06:43 AM

Re:
 
For those with an interest, it was actually Noel Coward who coined the phrase gay in the following verse;

Pretty boys, witty boys,
You may sneer
At our disintegration.
Haughty boys, naughty boys,
Dear, dear, dear!
Swooning with affectation...
And as we are the reason
For the "Nineties" being gay,
We all wear a green carnation

And of course the green carnation refers to Oscar Wilde who always wore one. Amongst those Royals listed as being gay are Julius Caesar, Edward II, Louis XIII of France, Queen Mary II, Richard the Lionheart, Umberto II of Italy and Lord Frederick Windsor who apparantly has now come out and indeed, on his Wikipedia Entry is posing on the front of a gay mag in a very very camp manner indeed. Interestingly Hans Christian Andersen was also gay.

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 07:24 AM

Go Frrredddy!!!!

And one mus'nt forget Alexander the Great.

And although not royal, Leonardo Da Vinci and Michaelangelo who were both arrested for having intimate relations with other younger men.

And most milliners and world renowned fashion designers!

Love us or hate us, we are good and here to stay.lol.

"MII"

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 07:28 AM

Re:
 
Unsubstantiated gossip post

With a mother like Princess Michael and a grandfather like Prince George, I'm not suprised that Freddie is gay. It makes me believe one 100% in the gay gene.

*And I'm not saying Princess Michael is a lesbian, just that she's exceptionally camp and the perfect mother for a gay guy

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
With a mother like Princess Michael and a grandfather like Prince George, I'm not suprised that Freddie is gay. It makes me believe one 100% in the gay gene.

*And I'm not saying Princess Michael is a lesbian, just that she's exceptionally camp and the perfect mother for a gay guy

Here Here "B", I adore the Princess Michael of Kent! She is an inspiration to moi. A mother who would lend her mink I believe.

I also am a firm believer in the gay gene.

"MII"

Smilla 10-29-2005 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margrethe II
Ancient Greece, thats the one. Dont know why I said Romans before Greeks. My bad?

Move onto women? yeah right.lol. Never! I dont recall ever hearing how they were "supposed" to move onto women. One makes it sound like moving from an entrée to the main.

"MII"

Sorry. Must be my English! But it could work as a metaphor: I suppose the boys were regarded like an entree to Real Life - as entrees are so often, delicious, luxurious, and beautiful to look up. And then you had to get married to a women to have some kids and create the next generation of Polis citizens - which you could compare to, let's say, sheperd's pie - nourishing, yes, substantial, yes, but awfully boring, especially if compared to those delicious entrees. Hmmmm - and what's for dessert? :-)

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilla
Sorry. Must be my English! But it could work as a metaphor: I suppose the boys were regarded like an entree to Real Life - as entrees are so often, delicious, luxurious, and beautiful to look up. And then you had to get married to a women to have some kids and create the next generation of Polis citizens - which you could compare to, let's say, sheperd's pie - nourishing, yes, substantial, yes, but awfully boring, especially if compared to those delicious entrees. Hmmmm - and what's for dessert? :-)

Thats quite alright Smilla ;) Dont feel you need to apologise, your english is just fine.

You converted that into a wonderful metaphor!! Wonderfully expressed.

Kind regards,

"MII"

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 08:40 AM

Oh and was it not said that Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor (whom I have happend to grow very fond of in memory) had a relationship with a gay man whilst being married to HRH the Duke of Windsor? And apparently the Duke was aware of his wifes straying eye for something a little more exotic.

"MII"

branchg 10-29-2005 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margrethe II
Oh and was it not said that Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor (whom I have happend to grow very fond of in memory) had a relationship with a gay man whilst being married to HRH the Duke of Windsor? And apparently the Duke was aware of his wifes straying eye for something a little more exotic.

"MII"

Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor was very good friends with Jimmy Donohue, an heir to the Woolworth five and dime fortune, who was openly homosexual. She never slept with him, but he was someone she enjoyed socially along with the Duke.

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 08:45 AM

Re:
 
Quote:

Oh and was it not said that Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor (whom I have happend to grow very fond of in memory) had a relationship with a gay man whilst being married to HRH the Duke of Windsor? And apparently the Duke was aware of his wifes straying eye for something a little more exotic.
Wallis was indeed courting a young man known for his tastes in rich men. The feeling was that he was only interested in Wallis to get to David (Edward VIII).

*By the way, Wallis was only her Excellency during her time in the Bahamas but actually, she was HRH - morganatic marriage and all that. ;)

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 08:49 AM

Oh my mistake. Her Grace indeed ;) From material I read she was infact sleeping with him and I shall do my very best to get my hands on it.

Thanks for the clarification...

"MII"

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 10:57 AM

Re:
 
Hee Hee - I'll let you off ;) . As I said, Brits can't marry morganatically so just as Camilla will automatically become Queen upon Charles's accession, Wallis became HRH when she married him.

Anywho, WARNING - SLIGHTLY GRAPHIC BELOW

Can anyone remember the boys name she was with. Was it Jimmy someone? A friend of Wallis's said that Jimmy and Wallis never had penetrative sex they only indulged in foreplay. She believed that it was David he wanted.

susan alicia 10-29-2005 11:06 AM

think frederik the great of prussia and ludwig of bavaria too.
Went with a group of arthistorians to Neuschwanstein and was walking next to one male arthistorian with visibly plucked eyebrows and a long cape and a certain way about him. We passed two bavarian young men in lederhosen who looked visibly disgusted at him and I thought they probably do not know about ludwig

Idriel 10-29-2005 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Amongst those Royals listed as being gay are Julius Caesar, Edward II, Louis XIII of France, Queen Mary II, Richard the Lionheart, Umberto II of Italy and Lord Frederick Windsor who apparently has now come out and indeed, on his Wikipedia Entry is posing on the front of a gay mag in a very very camp manner indeed. Interestingly Hans Christian Andersen was also gay.

Most of people in your list were actually bisexual. A funny quote on Julius Caesar: 'Caesar is the man of all women and the woman of all men'.

Re: homosexuality in Greece.
The image of universally spread homosexuality and total sexual liberty is an illusion. Sexuality in Greece was very tightly controlled and was very dependant of social rules. For example, during an intercourse between two men the one with the most elevated social position will be 'the man' (don't think I will elaborate), never the contrary. Socrates was criticised for his passion for a stunning young male, as he would be effeminate with him, despite beeing older and more elevated than him. Same with the so-called pedophile tendency of the Greek. Intercourses between a young student and a mature teacher were not in an erotic contex, but in a educational context. That was to teach them, amoung other things, social hierarchy through humiliation. Sex (especially sex between men) was a social statement and in reality, the real number of homosexual men was not more higher than today, and they were not very respected (as they were effeminate).
Quote:

By the way, Wallis was only her Excellency during her time in the Bahamas but actually, she was HRH - morganatic marriage and all that.
She was never HRH.

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 11:32 AM

Re:
 
Quote:

She was never HRH
I understand that - she never was allowed to use the title but surely through the laws on non-morganatic marriage she became HRH when they married whether she used the title or not?

Warren 10-29-2005 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I understand that - she never was allowed to use the title but surely through the laws on non-morganatic marriage she became HRH when they married whether she used the title or not?

Branchg or Chrissy57 et al can explain it better but I believe King George VI issued Letters Patent which denied the Royal Highness style to Wallis. Under Common Law Wallis was indeed entitled to the HRH, but the Sovereign is the Fount of Honour, and the Sovereign decreed otherwise.

Idriel 10-29-2005 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I understand that - she never was allowed to use the title but surely through the laws on non-morganatic marriage she became HRH when they married whether she used the title or not?

She was not allowed to use it because she never was. As Warren says, Letters Patent were issued. Actually GVI first striped David from title and style then recreated him RH and prince of the UK, but only him. It was not really legal but he was the King and had the final say when it came to granted titles and styles. Plus he had the gov/parliament approval.

Sources: the RF :)

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 11:53 AM

Re:
 
Ah I see! I didn't know about the Letters Patent.

Thanks Idriel and Warren :)

Elspeth 10-29-2005 12:15 PM

Quote:

I also am a firm believer in the gay gene.
So far there doesn't seem to be a gay gene as such; there are several factors including genetic, hormonal, environmental, and bunches of things they haven't come across yet.

Smilla 10-29-2005 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idriel
Re: homosexuality in Greece. The image of universally spread homosexuality and total sexual liberty is an illusion. Sexuality in Greece was very tightly controlled and was very dependant of social rules. For example, during an intercourse between two men the one with the most elevated social position will be 'the man' (don't think I will elaborate), never the contrary. Socrates was criticised for his passion for a stunning young male, as he would be effeminate with him, despite beeing older and more elevated than him. Same with the so-called pedophile tendency of the Greek. Intercourses between a young student and a mature teacher were not in an erotic contex, but in a educational context. That was to teach them, amoung other things, social hierarchy through humiliation.

I'm just working on that topic (education in Ancient Greece), but the theory that homosexuality would teach young men "social hierarchy through humiliation" is news to me. Could you tell me your sources, please?
The way most authors here describe it, homosexuality was socially approved if it happened in the mentor/student relationship between a respected citizen and a young man of good family. It was not regarded as a humiliating experience but an initiation in the world of men.

Princejohnny25 10-29-2005 01:29 PM

Sexual liberty in the ancient world was a huge thing. In ancient rome the houses used to have mosaics of genitalia and sex was a very open thing. There really wasnt a line between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Sex was sex but heirachy did have something to do with it. Remember, that there morals were completely different from ours. They were free to do a lot of things. Morals are forever changing.

Idriel 10-29-2005 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilla
I'm just working on that topic (education in Ancient Greece), but the theory that homosexuality would teach young men "social hierarchy through humiliation" is news to me. Could you tell me your sources, please?
The way most authors here describe it, homosexuality was socially approved if it happened in the mentor/student relationship between a respected citizen and a young man of good family. It was not regarded as a humiliating experience but an initiation in the world of men.

I can't quote my source as most of the books I read on the subject are in the library of my boarding high school.
I am sorry about that and of course that is an excellent reason to disregard anything I say in my post.
But in case I just expressed myself badly, I will elaborate (again, here, no sources will be provided :o ).
Sexuality, whether with men or woman, was not sigmatized in ancient Greece like it is in Cristian societies. However, social hierarchy and status were a huge deal for the Greek (and Roman for that mater). Women were considered inferior to men. Assuming a woman role for a man, whether in everyday life or during a sexual intercourse (that what I mean by beeing effeminate), was not respected, and a humiliation. I am pretty sure that during your studies of the Greek educational system you came across texts specifying that the intercourse between a teacher and a student were codified. It was always the teacher who would assume the dominant or "man" role, never the contrary. In that sense it was an sort of social humiliation for the student, IYSWIM. Of course this was accepted and normal, since it would instigate in the young man the values of the society. And of course as you say, there was much more about this ritual, it was a real initiation. But part of it was humiliation. At least that what I read and that makes sense to me.
AFAIK, this what not considered homosexuality. There were strictly homosexual men and they were not well considered in society (because they would behave like women most of the time). I remember reading poems from homosexual men of the time, and from it you can tell there was a real stigma attached to it (again, not because of the sexual but because of the social aspect).
I would rather agree with Prince Johnny who express things perfectly IMO.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
So far there doesn't seem to be a gay gene as such; there are several factors including genetic, hormonal, environmental, and bunches of things they haven't come across yet.

I do agree and I find the dea of a gay gene rather dangerous and reductive.

Princejohnny25 10-29-2005 04:04 PM

I do not understand the gay gene or believe in it either. I think you are born gay.

Margrethe II 10-29-2005 07:56 PM

Of course one is born gay. Believe me, I should know!

One recently researched hypotheses on the formation of sexual orientation is the prenatal hormonal theory. It holds that as prenatal exposure to particular levels of circulating sex hormones determines whether a fetus will acquire male or female traits, so similar exposure determines sexual orientation.

This is what I meant by gene & this is what I find myself thinking to be the most likely explanation.

"MII"

BeatrixFan 10-29-2005 07:58 PM

Re:
 
Thats quite true Margrethe II. A severe exposure to particular levels of circulating sex hormones can cause transsexuality as well as homosexuality. I don't think we've had any transsexual royals but there have been a few transsexual peeresses.

Lady Marmalade 10-29-2005 09:23 PM

Wow...this has to be the most...umm..frank forum on the entire site..very interesting to read your posts..:)

The Duchess of Windsor was never HRH...she was few other things I will not type on here, ;) but never an HRH.

I read in a few books and magazines that same sex intercourse and play has a very high rate in the upper class schools of the British aristocracy.

Prince Philip himself has even alluded to such practices...

Warren 10-30-2005 12:13 AM

Yes, this is a fairly frank thread, but it is an adult discussion, and the Forums are broad enough to accommodate it. An alternative to Charlotte Casiraghi's favourite handbag (if you know what I mean). If a member who is likely to be offended by the content investigates this thread, it is easy enough for them to click on the 'Back' or 'Home' buttons and get out fast.
.

wymanda 10-30-2005 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Unsubstantiated gossip. With a mother like Princess Michael and a grandfather like Prince George, I'm not suprised that Freddie is gay.

Is He??????

Royal Fan 10-30-2005 01:39 AM

Unsubstantiated gossip

I Think ive heard the rumor about Lord Frederick Windsor

Warren 10-30-2005 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan
I Think ive heard the rumor about Lord Frederick Windsor

Yes, it's RUMOUR only, and follows in the long line of "if he's cute he must be gay" tittletattle. Before Prince Michael of Kent married, the same was "rumoured" about him. Prince Edward ditto. This tendency to claim and label people is one of the more negative and pointless aspects of Gay Gossip.
.

Margrethe II 10-30-2005 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
Yes, it's RUMOUR only, and follows in the long line of "if he's cute he must be gay" tittletattle. Before Prince Michael of Kent married, the same was "rumoured" about him. Prince Edward ditto. This tendency to claim and label people is one of the more negative and pointless aspects of Gay Gossip.
.

Very true. I (like everyone else) does not know if infact Lord Freddie is gay or indeed any other person suspected of being gay, but by the look of his profile picture in Wikipedia I think one can safely say he is quite the "indavidual" aristocrat.lol.

"MII"

Lady Marmalade 10-30-2005 02:29 AM

And unless there is 100% proof, and I mean Lord Freddie coming out and saying it himself, which I sincerely doubt is the case, given his track record with the ladies, we should not speculate.

Warren hit an excellent point....if you are well-groomed, handsome, in shape, and dress well..people just like to assume and makeup stories for their own satisfaction.

Lady Marmalade 10-30-2005 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
Yes, this is a fairly frank thread, but it is an adult discussion, and the Forums are broad enough to accommodate it. An alternative to Charlotte Casiraghi's favourite handbag (if you know what I mean). If a member who is likely to be offended by the content investigates this thread, it is easy enough for them to click on the 'Back' or 'Home' buttons and get out fast.
.

You do have an intriguing way with words, Warren...I love it...thank you for the laugh. :)

I can handle it though. I do like the honesty on here..helps people keep things in perspective.

msfroyste 10-30-2005 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan
I Think ive heard the rumor about Lord Frederick Windsor

i think we all have at one point or another.

BeatrixFan 10-30-2005 07:04 PM

Re:
 
Wikipedia has Frederick down as 'out' and it seemed he was, posing for a gay magazine etc. I suppose that, added to his position on the board of G-A-Y confirmed it in the opinion of those who wrote the article.
Speculation: I think its taken that he is but that he's going to officially remain in the closet.

Lady Marmalade 10-30-2005 09:31 PM

Unless he proclaims it himself, it is not in the best interest to speculate. If he is gay friendly, then more power to him. There are many men comfortable in their sexuality to pose on the cover of gay magazines and I think that is wonderful. It does not mean one is gay or not gay. It can show that anyone's sexuality is acceptable, which is a great way to go.

Royal Fan 10-30-2005 09:49 PM

What do we know about
Ernst of Hesse
Grand Duke Sergei of Russia
any truth their ive even heard a rumor about the current Duke of York

Margrethe II 10-30-2005 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Unless he proclaims it himself, it is not in the best interest to speculate. If he is gay friendly, then more power to him. There are many men comfortable in their sexuality to pose on the cover of gay magazines and I think that is wonderful. It does not mean one is gay or not gay. It can show that anyone's sexuality is acceptable, which is a great way to go.

Indeed lady M,

I know many gay friendly guys, and some are very good friends of mine. If he is or if he is'nt, who cares. As long as his comfortable with being who he is thats all that matters.

"MII"

Warren 10-30-2005 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan
What do we know about
Ernst of Hesse
Grand Duke Sergei of Russia
any truth their ive even heard a rumor about the current Duke of York

Yes
Yes
This is ridiculous

Lady Marmalade 10-31-2005 12:27 AM

See...one is mentioned as a possibility and then everyone is drawn in the fold...Prince Andrew is not gay...

Idriel 10-31-2005 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan
any truth their ive even heard a rumor about the current Duke of York

:D :D So what do he do with all those ladies who go in and out his home? Do they spend the night discussing the latest fashion week?
Quote:

Grand Duke Sergei of Russia
A complicated case this one. He was asexual actually. He did not have any lover (male or female) that I ever heard of and did never touch his wife (the stunningly beautiful Grand Princess Ella). Whether he was a tortured homosexual or simply was repulsed by sex, this is debatable.
Personally, I think he was gay but because of his bigotry, felt extremely guilty about it and shun all sexual desires.

Royal Fan 10-31-2005 11:51 AM

WOW Thats interesting about Sergei

lashinka2002 10-31-2005 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idriel
:D :D So what do he do with all those ladies who go in and out his home? Do they spend the night discussing the latest fashion week? A complicated case this one. He was asexual actually. He did not have any lover (male or female) that I ever heard of and did never touch his wife (the stunningly beautiful Grand Princess Ella). Whether he was a tortured homosexual or simply was repulsed by sex, this is debatable.
Personally, I think he was gay but because of his bigotry, felt extremely guilty about it and shun all sexual desires.

I read a biography on Sergei's wife Ella and the book basically said that Ella waited for her wedding night that never came. He never mistreated her but he certainly never touched her. It also spoke of some cruelty that Sergei endured from family members as a child and how Ella had managed to reach out to him in a tender moment at a very young age. This seems to be one of the reasons why he asked for her hand in marraige. There were several attempts on his part throughout the marraige where he was looking for something emotional from her but never anything sexual. I think he had a challenging emotional upbrining, the impression that I recieved was that he was never very loved by his immediate family. Poor Ella, she was deceived. She came into the marraige believing that she would love and be loved, eventually have her own family and children but none of that came to pass. In this day and age you could get an anullment on those grounds but back then I guess that would have been scandolous. After he died Ella became a nun so she may have never had sexual relations.

Toledo 10-31-2005 07:26 PM

Now this is one risky and slanderous thread. And to think I got a post removed for being too crude on Camilla. :rolleyes:

Queen Astrid 10-31-2005 07:53 PM

Queen Christina of Sweeden was known to be a cross dresser and had a taste for Females if I remember correctly

Toledo 10-31-2005 09:13 PM

She ate them? :p

I think gayness is a word that does not carry back with the same effect prior to gay rights in the 60's. In olden times men and women would get together and moved on with their other lives as husbands or wives. I remember reading that the Sultan of the Ottomans, Suleiman used to have his partner around always and that did not prevent him from reproducing with the Harem.

And in this century, the ambiguity in taste was normal before the Mae West scandals that prompted censorship and were the basis for the 1950's extremes of the McCarthy era. It was common knowledge that Garbo liked men and women, that her main rival was Dietrich who competed with her for the same women, and so on.

So, there were not exactly gay by today's standards and labels, just people who loved a varied menu.


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