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-   -   George III (1738-1820) and Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (1744-1818) (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f165/george-iii-1738-1820-and-charlotte-of-mecklenburg-strelitz-1744-1818-a-6572.html)

Lady Jennifer 07-22-2005 11:35 AM

George III (1738-1820) and Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (1744-1818)
 
I thought it would be interesting to have a thread on King George III. I didn't see one on him. He has always been an interesting person in British & even World History. Have there been any good books written about him? What about movies, etc?

Lady Jennifer 07-22-2005 11:37 AM

I found this article:

King George's Madness Linked to Arsenic

By EMMA ROSS, AP Medical Writer
Fri Jul 22, 7:53 AM ET



LONDON - Scientists have found high levels of arsenic in the hair of King George III and say the deadly poison may be to blame for the bouts of apparent madness he suffered.....
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050722/...ad_king_george

Von Schlesian 07-22-2005 08:57 PM

Yes, was there not a theory about the death of Napoleon also arsenic-related? Based on the preservation of his body, and the arsenic content in his hair?

I think HM King George III had a most un-fortunate life. When he was healthy, he was a perfectly good King, despite the loss of the American colonies, which was less down to him, but to the Prince Regent (later George IV), for his poor diplomatic skill at the time. Yes yes, I know not to get into a debate about the revolutionary war, so I won't.

So while he was a King, with much German influence, and sometimes a strick opinion of what must be done, he had the awful luck to become under the control of (a mental condition), and those who mis-treated it.

I wonder how the world would look had he been able to actively reign through his entire six decades as King...

tiaraprin 07-24-2005 01:17 AM

George and Arsesnic?
 
I think this is a quite interesting idea Lady Jennifer!! About two months ago, I finished the biography of his daughters!

From all my research on the topic, I have always come to the conclusion of porphyria. This new article about arsenic is quite interesting. Perhaps being treated with antimony caused or made his bouts of "madness" much worse. It is definitely worth investigating!

Elspeth 07-24-2005 03:16 AM

Quote:

I wonder how the world would look had he been able to actively reign through his entire six centuries as King...
Quite a lot older, I should imagine. Six centuries?

Von Schlesian 07-24-2005 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Quite a lot older, I should imagine. Six centuries?

Thankyou Elspeth:) I clearly wasn't thinking. Yes indeed, he would look quite a lot older. We certainly wouldn't be seeing his name in the 'Best looking Royal Man' thread:).

Incidentally, I also read the related article in 'The Australian' (one of our national news papers), last night on the train, and funnily enough, it also mentioned Napoleon.

tiaraprin 07-25-2005 07:40 PM

Has anyone seen anything else on this theory of arsenic being related to or causing George III's madness??

tiaraprin 07-25-2005 07:52 PM

Queen Charlotte, Consort of George III
 
Since Lady Jennifer has created a thread for George III, I thought it would be interesting to have one for his wife Charlotte of Mecklenberg-Strelitz.

Charlotte, apart from giving George III 15 children, was the mother of George IV and William IV. She was grandmother to Queen Victoria through her son Edward, Duke of Kent.

Charlotte has been portrayed in many ways. She has been portrayed as a domineering mother to her children, a victim of George III's madness, the culprit of George III's madness because of her ugliness and his having to procreate with her, or a timid woman who did as she was bid by George III.

What say you, members of The Royal Forums about this obscure German Princess who became Queen Consort of England??

Elspeth 07-25-2005 07:56 PM

Well, she gave her name to a very spectacular flower:

https://www.plantoftheweek.org/week096.shtml

tiaraprin 07-25-2005 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Well, she gave her name to a very spectacular flower:

https://www.plantoftheweek.org/week096.shtml

Thanks Elspeth, I did not know that. Very pretty flower, quite impressive!!

tiaraprin 07-27-2005 02:08 AM

I was doing some reading on Charlotte, and many of the books I checked say she only ever really loved her eldest son who became King George IV. It has been written that she had a statue of him as a new born baby kept in her bedroom until the day she died.

Elspeth 07-27-2005 02:39 AM

She seems like an interesting person, although she's very much in the background. I think she married rather young, and then she had all those children, and then her husband started having his mental health problems, so she must have had a hard life (inasmuch as a member of the royal family can, of course). I think Queen Mary had quite a lot of respect for her - I think she also said she resembled her; Queen Charlotte was her great-grandmother (I think I've got the right number of greats there!).

tiaraprin 07-27-2005 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
She seems like an interesting person, although she's very much in the background. I think she married rather young, and then she had all those children, and then her husband started having his mental health problems, so she must have had a hard life (inasmuch as a member of the royal family can, of course). I think Queen Mary had quite a lot of respect for her - I think she also said she resembled her; Queen Charlotte was her great-grandmother (I think I've got the right number of greats there!).

That was funny about the number of greats:p :p . It seems to be a big issue lately:D :D .

Yes Charlotte married young at 17 and before she knew it, she was pregnant with the future George IV. She also had to contend with knowing her husband had wanted to marry a beautiful commoner, Lady Sarah Lennox. George III was deterred by his mother and Lord Bute in marrying Lady Sarah, but she served as a bridesmaid for Charlotte--talk about keeping it all in one place!!

Charlotte also had to deal with her mother-in-law Augusta, Dowager Princess of Wales. Augusta is famous for being rushed in the middle of the night by her husband Frederick, Prince of Wales to another royal residence to give birth to their first child without George II and Queen Caroline being present!! There was great animosity between Frederick and his parents and you would think she would have learned a lesson from that and been nicer to Charlotte. Augusta didn't want her dominant position in the mind and heart of her son to be usurped by Charlotte.

Queen Mary always liked to remind people that she was a direct descendant of Charlotte and George III due to her father's morganatic blood. I think Queen Mary respected Charlotte because she always did her duty and produced 15 children--which to Queen Mary was an odious business. I marvel that Queen Mary even had six, such was her dislike of sex, pregnancy, and giving birth. However, if there is one word to sum up Queen Mary it is dutiful!!

EmpressRouge 07-27-2005 10:43 AM

When George first met Charlotte, he did not find her very attractive. Despite this, they managed to have a strong marriage. George III was the only Hanoverian Georges who remained faithful to his wife.

tiaraprin 07-27-2005 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge
When George first met Charlotte, he did not find her very attractive. Despite this, they managed to have a strong marriage. George III was the only Hanoverian Georges who remained faithful to his wife.

You are correct Empress. Some of George's contemporaries claimed he went "mad" because he had to procreate with such an "ugly" woman. That is something so rude and horrible to say about an innocent girl who is thrown in the middle of the British court without knowing one word of English. The court is just like it is today--a large pool of sharks.

Reina 07-29-2005 01:39 AM

I heard that she was quite celebrated by the ppl, inclduing ppl in the colonies. Also Charlotte, NC is named after her.

grecka 07-29-2005 09:20 AM

As for George not finding her attractive, contemporaries described Charlotte as having "mulatto" features. She was descended of Moors and Berbers, who were, of course, North African, so it was widely known, even in the 18th century, that Queen Charlotte had African blood, which, of course, at the time, was viewed by some as polluting white blood. So, here you have her, Queen Charlotte, the first African queen of England (very distantly African).

tiaraprin 07-31-2005 09:18 PM

I wonder what Queen Charlotte would think of what is happening in the Royal family at this present time?? It was indeed tumultuous during her time, but what would she say about now?? As a matter of fact, what would Queen Mary say?? I shudder to think of what Queen Mary would say!!!

Elspeth 07-31-2005 09:48 PM

I wonder if they'd have behaved themselves better if those matriarchs had been around!

tiaraprin 07-31-2005 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I wonder if they'd have behaved themselves better if those matriarchs had been around!

Well Elspeth, their children didn't behave when they were alive. George IV was a drunken, slovenly, adulterous man who married a Catholic secretly. How much more could he misbehave at that time?? William IV had the manners of a rude sailor and was known for his "fornicating" habits. The rest of her sons had mistresses, one son married "unsuitably" 2 times. Her daughter Sophia had a child out of wedlock, Amelia was "married in God's eyes" to Colonel Fitzroy. The only daughter to escape Charlotte before George IV's regency was the eldest who became Queen of Wurttemberg.

Queen Mary's children faired no better. The Prince of Wales was a man who looked for maternal affection all his life, Bertie stammered and smoked like a chimney, Harry became an alcoholic, George became a drug addict who was bisexual. Princess Mary became so unemotional and cut off from the world, she was like stone.

One thing I can tell you, Queen Mary would have put her foot down on a divorce amongst any of the family!

Lady Jennifer 08-01-2005 11:52 AM

Madness of King George III may have been his doctors' fault

By Carolyn Y. Johnson, Globe Staff | August 1, 2005

Nearly two centuries after King George III famously mistook a large tree for a Prussian king, peed red- and blue-tinged urine, and died blind, deaf, and mad, scientists are still finalizing his diagnosis.....
https://www.boston.com/news/globe/hea...doctors_fault/

Elspeth 08-01-2005 11:58 AM

I think a lot of the medicines in use back then, to say nothing of the medical procedures, combined with ignorance about antisepsis, were responsible for killing a lot of people. It sounds as though people who recovered from these diseases did so in spite of their doctors, not because of them.

grecka 08-01-2005 04:52 PM

They didn't seem to mind dysfunction. It's only when it was out in the open when they acted the "enforcer".

tiaraprin 08-03-2005 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think a lot of the medicines in use back then, to say nothing of the medical procedures, combined with ignorance about antisepsis, were responsible for killing a lot of people. It sounds as though people who recovered from these diseases did so in spite of their doctors, not because of them.


Very true Elspeth. They used mercury to treat veneral disease and I would bet these people died of mercury poisoning before the disease could have killed them. With all the blood letting and the purges that were given to "help" a royal, they actually made it worse as is evidenced by the death of Marie Adelaide of Savoy, Duchesse de Bourgogne. Louis XIV survived to a remarkable age due to a very strong physical constitution. That man survived an operation on a fistula without an anesthetic and tooth extractions in a time where sterilization for the prevention of infection was not well known. Actually the poor had a better chance of surviving some diseases because they didn't have doctors who would "treat" them!!

tiaraprin 08-03-2005 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grecka
They didn't seem to mind dysfunction. It's only when it was out in the open when they acted the "enforcer".

I think they minded the dysfunction even in private. Charlotte constantly remonstrated with her sons (especially George IV) to no avail. When his deeds became public, how much more Charlotte must have been embarrassed and ashamed of it all.

tiaraprin 08-20-2005 12:26 AM

A connection between Charlotte and Alexandra??
 
I see a connection somewhat between Charlotte and Alexandra, wife of Edward VII. Both used their daughters as ladies in waiting and would not let them marry for the most part!!

The intervention of the Prince Regent in 1811 got some of Charlotte's daughters married. However, Sophia remained a spinster due to her clandestine affair with General Garth and Amelia had died in 1810 as the lover of General Fitzroy but in her words "They were married in the eyes of God." Queen Charlotte died in 1818, shortly after the marriages of the Dukes of Clarence and Kent.

Two of Alexandra's daughters married, one to the Duke of Fife, the other, the future King of Norway (by election). Poor Victoria, the most unattractive of the sisters, was to be Mama's lady in waiting. Queen Alexandra died in 1925 and Victoria lived another 10 lonely years until 1935.

grecka 08-20-2005 01:00 AM

Didn't Queen Victoria also do that to her youngest daughter Beatrice? As I recall Beatrice wasn't able to marry until she was into her mid-thirties or something, which was very unusual for the time.

tiaraprin 08-20-2005 01:04 AM

Yes, Victoria is Guilty Too!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grecka
Didn't Queen Victoria also do that to her youngest daughter Beatrice? As I recall Beatrice wasn't able to marry until she was into her mid-thirties or something, which was very unusual for the time.

She permitted Beatrice to marry with the proviso that she and her husband resided with Queen Victoria. Beatrice married Prince Henry of Battenberg in July 1883. Prince Henry died in 1895.

tiaraprin 08-21-2005 02:28 AM

King George III, Queen Charlotte, and their 6 Eldest children
https://www.americanrevolution.com/KingGeorge3rd.htm

rodomjr 08-23-2005 03:09 AM

rodomjrHello! Please click https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000318&tree=LEO on to read about her life... I am new here... I am a deaf light-skinned African/Multiracial-American man and Queen Charlotte is my favorite one... :)

...Hello! ...I want to know why they called my favorite Queen Charlotte as "monkey-faced"??? To me her looks is very fine and she is looking much better than some other Queens.... It remind me like my late grandmothers :) ...Thoughts are so welcome! ... :-}.

tiaraprin 08-23-2005 03:21 AM

From my reading on the subject, many of the English court thought Charlotte to not be attractive and had many names to describe how she looked.
She was much different from Lady Sarah Lennox, whom the King had fallen in love with and was not permitted to marry because she was a commoner.

Warren 08-23-2005 03:33 AM

Withering Hanoverians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rodomjr
.I want to know why they called my favorite Queen Charlotte as "monkey-faced"??? To me her looks is very fine

Welcome to TRF rodomjr.
Our modern Western culture is often accused of being looks and body obsessed, but those Hanoverians were downright cruel. Even Queen Victoria in her (many) letters would write at length and in great detail of the imperfections and "ugliness" she would perceive in all manner of people's physical appearance. Not even new-born babies escaped her withering eye. Of course this attitude was not confined to the Queen but was mainstream within society at the time.
.

rodomjr 08-23-2005 03:53 AM

From my reading on the subject, many of the English court thought Charlotte to not be attractive and had many names to describe how she looked.

She was much different from Lady Sarah Lennox, whom the King had fallen in love with and was not permitted to marry because she was a commoner.

Hi! Tiaraprin, Yes, I had been doing research for 15 years and as I realized more that most of them insulted Queen Charlotte on base her Africa facial feature ("wide broad nose, thick thick and woolly hair textue")...Similar to my idol professional golf, Tiger Woods, who his father is part of Africa, Chinese, Europe and Originally Inhabitant Indigenous/Native-American and her mother is part of Chinese, Europe and Thailand (5 different tribes), that most America media labeled Tiger as "NEGRO" accoring to an ancient law: One-Drop Rule" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule) no matter how decent person he is... And please click https://www.asianweek.com/2002_04_19/opinion_emil.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors ... :confused:

"She was considered by many to be dull and extremely plain. She had little wit or intellect. She did enjoy music and literature, but bearing and caring for their 15 children took up most of her time."

Hi! Tiaraprin, ...My homestate, North Carolina's largest city, Charlotte (It is in southwest of Norh Carolina near South Carolina borderline) and early German and Scottish settlers voted to name it after Queen Sophia Charlotte...Not only they had to honor her but they loved her and she was so popular to many average England citizens! A big problems are writers who are so prejudiced against Queen Sophia Charlotte and they tried to de-grade everything to her as possible in order to make her looks bad! :confused:

iowabelle 08-23-2005 02:15 PM

I wonder how much time she actually spent raising her young children. After all, there were wet nurses and nursemaids.

rodomjr 09-27-2005 09:12 AM

iowabelleI wonder how much time she actually spent raising her young children. After all, there were wet nurses and nursemaids.

Hi! iowabelle, ...Well, this is an excellent question and main problem that there is not enough write about her life include her native northeast German which she was a German Prince and her Africa Moor root in Portugal/Spain... :confused: :confused: :confused: :o :cool: Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr.

rodomjr 02-16-2006 01:59 AM

Continue discussing about Queen Charlotte's face feature...
 
(Sophia) Charlotte
Birth 19 MAY 1744, Mirow Death 17 NOV 1818, Kew Palace Burial , St. George Chap., Windsor, England Father Duke Charles Louis FrederickMother Elizabeth of Saxe-Hildburghausen ALBERTINFamily: George III HANOVER, King of England
  1. George IV HANOVER, King of England
  2. Frederick HANOVER, Duke of York
  3. William IV Henry HANOVER, King of England
  4. Charlotte Augusta Matilda HANOVER, Princess Royal
  5. Edward Augustus HANOVER, Duke of Kent (Note: Queen Victoria (1819-1901) who ruled the the United kingdon of Great Britain and Ireland from 1837 to 1901) is Edward Augustus Hanover's only daughter. It means modern England monarchy Queen Elizabeth II's children and grandchildren are descended from King George Hanover II & Queen Sophia Charlotte!:rolleyes:
  6. Augusta Sophia HANOVER
  7. Elizabeth HANOVER
  8. Ernest Augustus I HANOVER, King of Hanover
  9. Augustus Frederick HANOVER, Duke of Sussex
  10. Duke Adolphus of Cambridge HANOVER
  11. Mary HANOVER
  12. Sophia HANOVER
  13. Octavius HANOVER
  14. Alfred HANOVER
  15. Amelia HANOVER
NOTES: (Sophia) Charlotte, fifth and youngest dau. of Duke Charles Louis Frederick of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Elizabeth Albertin of Saxe-Hildburghausen. Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz; Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Appears to be "monkey-faced" in many of her portraits.:eek:

Interests and patronage

Styles of
Queen Charlottehttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...px-G3_Arms.pngReference styleHer MajestySpoken styleYour MajestyAlternative styleMa'am
Queen Charlotte was keenly interested in the fine arts and supported Johann Christian Bach, who was her music teacher. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, then aged eight, dedicated his Opus 3 to her, at her request. The queen also founded orphanages and a hospital for expectant mothers.
In 2004, the Queen's Gallery at Buckingham Palace staged an exhibition illustrating George and Charlotte's enthusiastic arts patronage, which was particularly enlightened in contrast to that of earlier Hanoverian monarchs; it compared favorably to the adventuresome tastes of the king's father, Frederick, Prince of Wales. Among the royal couple's favored craftsmen and artists were the cabinetmaker William Vile, silversmith Thomas Heming, the landscape designer Capability Brown, and the German painter Johann Zoffany, who frequently painted the king and queen and their children in charmingly informal scenes, such as a portrait of Queen Charlotte and her children as she sat at her dressing table.
The queen also was a well-educated amateur botanist and helped establish what is today Kew Gardens.;)
The education of women was a great importance to the queen, and she saw to it that her daughters were better educated than was usual for young women of the day.
__________________________________________
"History is a lie agreed upon" Napoleon Bonaparte

rodomjr 04-28-2006 05:50 PM

English's first African-British Queen: Phillipa...
 
My favorite English Queen Sophia Charlotte is not really first African-British Queen and there was a lot of Kings and Queens of Africa descendants before Charlotte!!! Note: Like Queen Charlotte, Queen Phillipa was not consider attracting to most 14th Europeans, too! Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr.

https://www.100greatblackbritons.com/bios/queen_phillipa.html

Queen Phillipa
England's first black queen, mother of the black prince

Philippa was the daughter of William of Hainault, a lord in part of what is now Belgium. When she was nine the King of England, Edward II, decided that he would marry his son, the future Edward III, to her, and sent one of his bishops, a Bishop Stapeldon, to look at her. He described her thus:
"The lady whom we saw has not uncomely hair, betwixt blue-black and brown. Her head is cleaned shaped; her forehead high and broad, and standing somewhat forward. Her face narrows between the eyes, and the lower part of her face is still more narrow and slender than the forehead. Her eyes are blackish brown and deep. Her nose is fairly smooth and even, save that is somewhat broad at the tip and flattened, yet it is no snub nose. Her nostrils are also broad, her mouth fairly wide. Her lips somewhat full and especially the lower lip…all her limbs are well set and unmaimed, and nought is amiss so far as a man may see. Moreover, she is brown of skin all over, and much like her father, and in all things she is pleasant enough, as it seems to us." :eek:
Four years later Prince Edward went to visit his bride-to-be and her family, and fell in live with her. She was betrothed to him and in 1327, when she was only 14, she arrived in England. The next year, when she was 15, they married and were crowned King and Queen in 1330 when she was heavily pregnant with her first child and only 17.
This first child was called Edward, like his father, but is better known as the Black Prince. Many say that he was called this because of the colour of his armour, but there are records that show that he was called 'black' when he was very small. The French called him 'Le Noir'.:confused: :cool:
Philippa was a remarkable woman. She was very wise and was known and loved by the English for her kindliness and restraint. She would travel with her husband on his campaigns and take her children as well. When the King was abroad she ruled in his absence. Queen's College in Oxford University was founded under her direction by her chaplain, Robert de Eglesfield in 1341 when she was 28. She brought many artists and scholars from Hainault who contributed to English culture.:rolleyes:
When she died, Edward never really recovered, and she was much mourned by him and the country. King Edward had a beautiful sculpture made for her tomb which you can see today at Westminster Abbey.;)

Sourced from the Black Cultural Archives

JOY! 07-24-2006 03:14 AM

Here's a link to a site, that has some letters that Queen Charlotte wrote to her brother.
https://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/ex...charlett5.html

it's really nice to read, her opinions on the revolutionary war and other things. It helps give insight into her personality I think.

Vecchiolarry 07-25-2006 05:33 PM

Queen Charlotte
 
Hi,

I don't think Queen Charlotte looks like a 'monkey face'. I think she looks no better nor no worse than any other queen or person for that matter.

Here in Canada, we honour Queen Charlotte with the capital city of Prince Edward Island (our smallest province, named after Queen Victoria's father), Charlottetown.
Also, on the west coast of British Columbia, is a large group of islands called the Queen Charlotte Islands.
We seem to have honoured her better than some kings and queens!

Larry

CarolinaLandgrave 07-31-2006 04:46 PM

Thats interesting about Queen Charlotte having African blood - I had never heard that until reading some obscure article online a few weeks ago. I wish I could remember where I found the article. Does anyone have a breakdown on the genealogy of Queen Charlotte?
Also intersting to me are the many references that Queen Mary does make to being a descendant of Queen Charlotte. Queen Mary is a fascinating person to me, made all the more so by her Hungarian noble blood - which, though not Royal, she holds in highest esteem.
And on that subject, was Queen Mary's paternal grandmother in the many who claim descent from Atilla the Hun?

Lady Jennifer 08-05-2006 08:13 PM

And our county is named after her German home- Mecklenburg. Here is the Wikipedia article on the city of Charlotte (the nickname of the city is The Queen City) The airport has a statue of Queen Charlotte....it isn't the best representation of her- its quite odd looking actually. I'll try to find a picture of it on the net- here is a link to a post I wrote that has the picture of Queen Charlotte.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reina
I heard that she was quite celebrated by the ppl, inclduing ppl in the colonies. Also Charlotte, NC is named after her.

I agree that she seemed to be celebrated by all people. She had to have been a strong woman to deal with her husband and all his issues.

rodomjr 08-17-2006 08:22 AM

Was Queen Charlotte black?
 
https://www.readthehook.com/Stories/2006/02/02/coverqueen.html

Was Queen Charlotte black??


Published February 2, 2006 in issue 0505 of the HooK.
By VIRGINIA DAUGHERTY VIRGINIA@PAPERCRAFT.COM

ricland 04-25-2008 09:57 AM

The Black Queen
 
The are three pieces of evidence that lead me to believe Queen Charlotte Sophia, consort to George III was of African heritage.

First, the Ramsey portrait made of her just before George III's cornation:
The Black Queen

You'll note the inset head image is definitely that of a woman of African heritage. I believe the inset image is the original. I have seen at least four other versions of the same head each rendered with distinct European features. In fact, so distinctly different are each of versions I've seen it is clear to me a concerted effort was made to render a version of the sitter's face completely different from what I believe was the Ramsey original.

Note also in the second version the hair from the first was clearly copied, or I should say, the face from the first erased and a more European one painted in its place.

Also, I've included a cartoon made of George III and Queen Charlotte where although both face's are exaggerated hers is clearly rendered in a distinctly ethnic way, a way to my eye, seems to be based on the way person I marked "original" looks.

There are other things...

In his dairy, Baron von Stockmar surgeon to the Queen writes about her, "She had the face of a true mulatto."
Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the link above please ignore Mario de Valdes y Cocom's nonsense about Queen Charlotte being nine times removed from a distant ancestor of African heritage, even if that were true, that wouldn't explain her "true mulatto face."

Many other comments are recorded about Queen Charlotte's looks and most have this in common: they speak of a woman who looked not like folks entirely expected, that she had a "frog-like" appearance, was "not pretty" etc.

Finally, for the purposes of the novel I'm writing about her, I'm presuming her "father" was a full-blooded African named Abram Gannibal.

Gannibal was a noted Russian General who visited England several times during the 18th century.

ricland

ricland 04-25-2008 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodomjr (Post 269628)
I want to know why they called my favorite Queen Charlotte as "monkey-faced"?

I'd love to know where that "monkey-face" quote comes from.

I'm writing a novel about Queen Charlotte's supposed black ancestry and hae never seen that quote.

The Black Queen

Mermaid1962 05-01-2008 01:37 PM

I can't remember where I read this, but there was one writer who claimed that Queen Charlotte was descended from an African diplomat who was present in the Russian court. The article gave the name of this man. I only wish I could remember where I read it!

Furienna 05-01-2008 06:41 PM

This is an article about Queen Charlotte's possible African heritage.
Frontline: Famous Families
Frontline: Queen Charlotte

iowabelle 05-02-2008 04:15 PM

There are two ladies today in the British aristocracy who claim such ancestry: the Duchess of Abercorn and her sister, the Duchess of Westminster. Not only are they descendants of Sophie, the Electress of Hannibal but they are also descendants of the Russian poet Pushkin and his African great-grandfather, Abram Petrovich Gannibal, the associate of Peter the Great.

I was just looking at wikipedia about this queen, and it would seem that any "African" blood would have been at least 9 generations in the past. By my estimate that's about 2 centuries, maybe more -- so the total effect upon the queen's appearance must have been negligible. (As a comparison, I am only 5 generations away from my Native American roots and you wouldn't know that unless I told you.)

Let's face it, some royals (even today) are less than photogenic, and it would seem to me that describing the queen as African was probably more of a scurrilous political attack on her than an accurate description of her appearance.

Emperor Wilhelm IX 05-07-2008 11:09 AM

I have a difficult time really picturing how Queen Charlotte mush have looked. From the descriptions I have read they make her out to be not very attractive and yet from the paintings I have seen I don't think she looks unattractive at all. But I do understand that artists tended to flatter their subjects and create a more idealized image, many of Winterhalter's paintings of Queen Victoria are idealized a bit, so it is difficult to really have a conception on how she really looked.

chickin 06-22-2008 09:18 AM

See time on wikipedia to King George III from england (1738-1820) and Queen Charlotte princess from Mecklenburg/Strelitz(1744-1818)what with mirow to do have,where she there toward born is!What in the ex DDR is in eastgermany!What 30 kilometre from her away is!What me interest is if it ever still royal member here give,or member from other royal Familys the Mecklenburg/Strelitz visit have!That have a special reason why i ask!

chickin 06-24-2008 10:53 AM

to king george 3 and sophie charlotte from Mecklenburg/Strelitz!
 
2 Attachment(s)
Queen Charlotte, (née Duchess Sophia Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz; 19 May 174417 November 1818) was the queen consort of George III of the United Kingdom (1738–1820).
Queen Charlotte was a patroness of the arts, known to Johann Christian Bach and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, among others. She was also an amateur botanist who helped establish Kew Gardens. George III and Queen Charlotte had 15 children, 13 of whom survived to adulthood.

Charlotte was the youngest daughter of Duke Charles Louis Frederick of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Prince of Mirow (23 February 17075 June 1752) and his wife, Princess Elizabeth Albertine of Saxe-Hildburghausen, Duchess in Saxony (4 August 171329 June 1761).
She was a granddaughter of Adolf Frederick II, Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (19 October 165812 May 1708) by his third wife, Christiane Emilie Antonie, Princess of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (March, 1681 – 1 November 1751). Her father's elder half brother reigned from 1708 to 1753 as Adolf Friedrich

chickin 06-24-2008 10:59 AM

to king george 3 and sophie charlotte from Mecklenburg/Strelitz!
 
2 Attachment(s)
Princess Charlotte was collected at Cuxhaven by a squadron of British yachts and warships under Admiral Anson (including the specially renamed HMY Royal Charlotte), but on its return the squadron was three times blown over to the Norwegian coast by westerly gales and took ten days to reach Harwich, which it did in early September 1761. Charlotte then travelled to London, where the couple were married at the Chapel Royal in St. James's Palace, London, on 8 September of that year. Her mother-in-law did not welcome her with open arms, and for some time there was a slight tension between the two. However, the king's mother had yet to accept any woman with whom he was alleged to have been involved, therefore it seems that the young king cared little for her approval by this time.
Despite not having been her husband's first choice as a bride, and having been treated with a general lack of sympathy by her mother-in-law, the Dowager Princess of Wales, Charlotte's marriage was a happy one, and the king was apparently never unfaithful to her. In the course of their marriage, they had 15 children, all but two of whom (Octavius and Alfred) survived into adulthood. As time went on, she wielded considerable power within the realm, although she evidently never misused it.

1 from her Kids was George 4 on the picture and still 14 other kids toward wikipedia!

Emeralds and Opals 10-27-2008 09:36 PM

Re: Letters from King George III discovered.
 
Courtesy of the Telegraph.

Letters from King George III to his son Prince William have been unearthed - Telegraph

"Letters from King George III to his son Prince William have been unearthed."

foiegrass 12-21-2008 10:14 AM

George III ... Tryant?
 
Hi I was just wondering about the viewpoints of other members of this board... especially British & American Viewpoints.

Do you view George III as a tyrant during the American Revolution???

Thanks

Furienna 12-21-2008 11:43 AM

I'm not Brittish or American, but I will still share my two cents on this. Well, I don't think George III was better or worse than any other king of the time. But not listening to the Americans, who (as I've understood it) didn't ask for more than seats in the parlament in London, when they had to pay taxes to the Brittish crown, was really foolish. But I guess it was fate, that those thirteen colonies would liberate themselves and found the US.

Camilo2002 12-21-2008 09:30 PM

I agree, the British were desperate to keep the Colonies and it was a very cruel war. The same happened in South America wiith independence wars. The Spanish used repression, torture and whatever they could imagine to win the war and prevent the colonies to become independent. They were wars like any other experienced anywhere else.

The reason why Countries such as Australia, Canada, etc. remained in good terms with Britain is because there was no independence war in those Countries. If you come to Canada you will find a number of places/cities/towns/squares/etc. named after Queen Victoria all over the Country, even in the French Canada. In the US there are not many places named after the famous Queen; the reason is that she became Queen relatively soon after America's Independence. It would have appeared treason to name a city/town after Queen Victoria in the US during 19th century. Even now, Queen Elizabeth is officially Canada's head of State, as it is in Australia and many commonwealth countries.

Kotroman 02-06-2009 06:37 PM

I am fascinated by Queen Charlotte's friendship with Queen Marie Antoinette. Although the Queen of Great Britain was 11 years older than the Queen of France, they shared many interests. They have never met face to face - they kept the friendship to pen and paper. Marie Antoinette confided in the Queen of Great Britain upon the outbreak of the French Revolution and, according to Lady Antonia Fraser, Queen Charlotte had even organized apartments to be prepared and ready for the refugee royal family of France to stay in :(

Vasillisos Markos 10-10-2009 01:06 AM

Would that have been wise? It sounds as though Queen Charlotte was a kind woman and would have helped a fellow royal but would Parliament have allowed a deposed monarch to live in England? Wasn't Republican fever spreading through Europe at the time, thereby causing unrest in many countries?

Furienna 10-10-2009 07:44 AM

No, maybe not. But weren't Marie Antoinette and her family trying to flee to her brother in Austria, but they were captured? Too bad. If they only had stayed where they were, maybe they could have stayed king and queen of France, but not with as much power as before. But that discussion is for another thread.

silverstar 10-10-2009 08:41 AM

It was only last night that I was wondering ... was there any contact or Royal visits between the English Monarchy and the French Monarchy during the 18th cent... ? I could nt think of much.... but now I learn the two Queens were at least communicating, if only by letter !

When you think that England and France were perhaps the two most eminent Monarchies in Europe with so much in common... yet there was really no contact nor state visits during all those years.... nothing on the scale of Henry 8th and the Cloth of Gold
I suppose they were divided by a channel and centuries of war and rivalry .

Grace Angel 10-10-2009 03:28 PM

I don't recall there was particular unrest in the England of George III at that time, although later in the 1790s and early 1800s, the RF wasn't very popular in England due to the excesses of the sons of George III. But, I think that was later than the 1780s-early 90s. I'm not an expert on the RF in this era, to be sure.

arrdoc 01-03-2010 03:32 PM

George III
 
You might be interested in my book, Royal Maladies: Inherited Diseases in the Ruling Houses of Europe (Trafford Press 2008), which discusses the issue of porphyria in George III, his ancestors and descendents.
ARRDOC

HM Queen Catherine 01-04-2010 02:21 AM

As an American, I would not classify George III as a tyrant before, during or after the American Revolution. I have no doubt that he was considered one to the Colonists, of course. They had plenty of reasons to dislike British rule, and I'm sure a large part of their malcontent was focused on the King. He was, after all, the head of the government.

But George III was not overly interested in politics.. he was more passionate about agriculture, which is why he earned the moniker "Farmer George".

The historical record has since shown that George III was not responsible for the American Revolution. It appears his worst crime was acting as a constitutional monarch and supporting his cabinet ministers, who made the decisions. He even privately questioned the outcome of some of those decisions.

I find it interesting that the Americans probably had some idea that he was not really involved in Colonial policy.. because the Declaration of Independence clearly states that the king "has abdicated Government here.." referring to the Colonies.

Of course, after the Revolution, George was accused of trying to keep up the war with America.. but as most historians have pointed out, no European monarch at that time would have willingly given up the bulk of their dominions without a fight.. and I can understand this point of view... with the hindsight of several hundred years. I'm sure the Americans of the time felt quite unsympathetic toward Britain or the King or his ministers.

By 1778, George was not only fighting with the Americans, but also with the French since they signed a peace treaty with America in that year. But by 1781, he had to concede his loss of the Colonies and had even drafted a letter of abdication.. but that letter was never delivered to Parliament.

George III told John Adams in 1785: "I was the last to consent to the separation; but the separation having been made and having become inevitable, I have always said, as I say now, that I would be the first to meet the friendship of the United States as an independent power."

It was around this time that his health problems became more pronounced. George's first episode of serious derangement came in the fall of 1788, over 30 years before his death. I think that before the Regency began in 1811, most if not all, of the political decisions were made by Parliament and the King's ministers.

I have quite a bit of sympathy for George III. I think he had many admirable qualities as a man in his time.
He wasn't the greatest of monarchs.. but I would never consider him a tyrant.

silverstar 02-02-2010 12:48 PM

Maybe Gentry is right and George 3rd was
a good guy who believed in God, believed in the institution of marriage... was very moral
and faithful to his wife... Queen Charlotte.
He was trying to set a new moral tone after the decadence of King George 2nds court.
He had also married a good woman in Charlotte.. from Mecklenburg-Strelitz.. the daughter of a German Duke

go here
Celebheaven • View topic - Queen Charlotte... wife of George 3rd


.

Vasillisos Markos 02-07-2010 10:02 AM

I would like to know more about the friendship between Queen Charlotte and Marie Antoinette. Were any letters saved between the two women?

ricland 01-19-2011 04:00 AM

Prince William's African Heritage?
 
First, let's dispense with the nonsense promoted by Valdez Y Concom regarding Queen Charlotte's (consort Geo. III) supposed lineage to fifteenth century Portuguese moors. Not credible at all.

But what is credible is this quote from Baron Stockmar's memoir published in 1872 by his son.

"Small and crooked with the face of a true Mulatto."

Memoirs of Baron Stockmar - Google Books

Please note the word "true" and the capitalization of the word "mulatto."

Stockmar was a medical doctor. He arrived at the British court in 1816 serving as Physician-in-Ordinary to Prince Leopold on the occasion of Leopold's marriage to Princess Charlotte (Queen Charlotte's granddaughter) in 1816.

Queen Charlotte (by this time Queen Mother) died in 1818. As part of the Royal family Stockmar surely had enough time to render an informed opinion of what she looked like.

And then there's the portraits of Charlotte that appear to confirm Stockmar's mulatto quote. Granted, these portraits are dramatically at odds with the tens of others that are now are held forth as more accurate; yet, how are mulatto portraits such as the following explained:

https://www.blacknewsnet.net/wp-conte...lattoproof.jpg

https://www.blacknewsnet.net/wp-conte...11/01/afro.jpg

The last one to my mind, clearly depicts a girl with a mulatto afro. As does this one:

https://www.blacknewsnet.net/wp-conte...largeeyes1.jpg

And there are the other comments made about her:

“She was undoubtedly a plain young girl with a large mouth, with a rather swarthy complexion and, her nostrils spreading wide, with something of the appearance of a mulatto.”

George III A Personal History
by Christopher Hibbert 2000
George III A Personal History - Google Books

---------------------------------------

The last of the cocked hats: James Monroe & the Virginia dynasty:

“the small, mulatto-faced Queen Charlotte, whose wide-slit mouth was reminiscent of the rigid demarcation line she set between virtue and vice…”
University of Oklahoma Press, 1945 Arthur Styron
The last of the cocked hats: James ... - Google Books

------------------------------------------------------

Queen Charlotte was in reality a spiteful, narrow-minded woman, obstinate of will…. She had a face like a mulatto, with enormous nostrils and a wide slit for a mouth. “

The stranger in the house: a life of ... - Google Books

-------------------------------------------------------------

There are more, but I'll pause here.

How is all this explained?

Hastings 04-13-2011 09:39 AM

I am writing a book and would like to know if Queen Charlotte spoke English with a German accent. Does anyone have any information on this or could you refer me to a book on her? I have not had any luck with my library reference desk. This is probably of little interest to casual history buffs, but when trying to write dialogue it is a "must know". Thanks so much.

Kataryn 04-13-2011 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hastings (Post 1231350)
I am writing a book and would like to know if Queen Charlotte spoke English with a German accent. Does anyone have any information on this or could you refer me to a book on her? I have not had any luck with my library reference desk. This is probably of little interest to casual history buffs, but when trying to write dialogue it is a "must know". Thanks so much.

Aquote form a contemporary and confidante of Queen Charlotte on her accent:
"She speaks English almost perfectly well, with great choice and copiousness of language, though now and then with foreign idiom, and frequently with a foreign accent. Her manners have an easy dignity, with a most engaging simplicity, and she has all that fine high breeding which the mind, not the station, gives, of carefully avoiding to distress those who converse with her, or studiously removing the embarrassment she cannot prevent."

Excerpt from: Burney, Fanny: The Diary of Fanny Burney. Selected and edited by Christopher Lloyd. London, 1948. p. 96-97, 103-104.
If you check google books, you'll find various editions of her diaries and letters, which should give you plenty of information.

Another potential source of information;
Horace Walpole wrote about her arrival as a young bride in Britain:
She talks a great deal--is easy, civil, and not disconcerted. At first, when the bride-maids and the court were introduced to her, she said, "Mon Dieu, il y en a tant, il y en a tant!" She was pleased when she was to kiss the peeresses, but Lady Augusta was forced to take her hand and give it to those that were to kiss it, which was prettily humble and good-natured. While they waited for supper, she sat down, sang, and played. Her French is tolerable, she exchanged much both of that and German with the King, the Duke, and the Duke of York.

Excerpts from The Letters of Horace Walpole, Earl of Orford, v. 4 (1759-1764). London, 1840. p. 169-171.

About her letters to her brother, which are kept at the Mecklenburgische Landeshauptarchiv: "Her letters are written in the typical 18th century French of the European courts, with a smattering of German. In both languages, Queen Charlotte exhibits her own peculiar use of grammar and spelling. "

More information about Queen Charlotte and her everyday life can be found here:

Queen Charlotte, 1744-1818: A Bilingual Exhibit



HM Queen Catherine 04-13-2011 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hastings (Post 1231350)
I am writing a book and would like to know if Queen Charlotte spoke English with a German accent. Does anyone have any information on this or could you refer me to a book on her? I have not had any luck with my library reference desk. This is probably of little interest to casual history buffs, but when trying to write dialogue it is a "must know". Thanks so much.

I think you can safely assume that Charlotte did have a German accent when speaking English. She was born in Germany of German parents, and lived there until she was 17 years old.

She may have spoken with less of an accent in later years, but I doubt she ever entirely lost it.

Certainly, George III could both read and write in German and one presumes he could speak the language as well.. so it isn't a far stretch to assume that he communicated with his wife in German sometimes.

Hope this helps :)

Hastings 04-13-2011 03:31 PM

Queen Charlotte's accent
 
Thanks to Kataryn and HM Queen Catherine,

Your information is very helpful. It is rare, in the bios that I have read, that they mention an accent.
I have just recently discovered that the Duke of Wellington didn't have an Irish Brogue. In the past year have met many transplants from England and two from Ireland. At least half didn't even know that he was Irish. When I remonstrated with them about their history classes, one gentleman said that Wellington was too new. Their history classes taught the Battle of Hastings (1066) and the invasion of the Normans. Nothing as new as the 19th century.

Thanks again

Lenora 07-10-2011 02:20 AM

It was interesting to find out that George III was married to another woman and his marrige was annulled
BBC - History - British History in depth: George III and History's Poisoned Well

Furienna 07-14-2011 02:36 PM

Wasn't that George IV?

Zonk 07-14-2011 03:14 PM

I believe it was George IV that was secrety (or not so secrety) to Maria Fitzherbert.

George III was rumoured to to have been interested in other ladies (Lady Sarah Lennox comes to mind) but I have never heard that he was secretly married.

XeniaCasaraghi 07-28-2011 06:36 AM

Didn't George III and his wife having so many children cause some controversy?

Vasillisos Markos 07-28-2011 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi (Post 1293379)
Didn't George III and his wife having so many children cause some controversy?

My dear Xenia,

I am not sure. I do know that Parliament complained about Queen Victoria having so many children because it caused a drain on the civil list or whatever they called it at that time.

What I do know is that the public was upset with the behavior of George III's sons' dissolute lifestyles and this caused controversy, especially after the tragic death of Princess Charlotte. This caused those dissolute sons to put aside their mistresses in order to seek suitable and sanctioned marriages.

XeniaCasaraghi 10-12-2011 02:26 AM

I'm Watching the Madness of King George right now. Helen Mirren is of course fantastic, and DANG do I hate the Prince of Wales. Someone accidentally push him down that spiral staircase and take one for the team.

Vasillisos Markos 10-12-2011 11:48 PM

I loved that movie! I think Helen Mirren won Best Actress at Cannes for her portrayal of Queen Charlotte.

Furienna 10-15-2011 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi (Post 1325520)
I'm Watching the Madness of King George right now. Helen Mirren is of course fantastic, and DANG do I hate the Prince of Wales. Someone accidentally push him down that spiral staircase and take one for the team.

I've only partly seen that movie, and that was some years ago, but I remember thinking that the Prince of Wales did have a good motive for how he treated his ill father: He wanted to marry a commoner, which his father never would have allowed, if he only had been well.

Vasillisos Markos 10-15-2011 10:01 PM

My dear Furienna,

I did not make that assumption, although I can see how you reached that conclusion. What struck me about his commoner wife was her devotion and piety towards the King. Despite what it might mean to her, and the Prince of Wales, she was devoted to the monarchy and supported the King. This showed great character in my opinion.

XeniaCasaraghi 10-16-2011 12:58 AM

Wasn't the Prince of Wales already married at this time? Or are you just referring to the movie.
If you're wondering why don't I know the answer, its because I am watching the movie on Youtube very slowly, George just got better and his son fainted.

Vasillisos Markos 10-17-2011 12:09 AM

From the movie it appeared that he did marry her but I don't know if that happened in reality. I don't know much about George IV, both before and after he became King.

Furienna 10-18-2011 05:33 AM

George IV was secretly married to a non-royal woman for a while though, wasn't he?

And even though it might not be 100 % historically correct, I have to see that movie some day,

Tiberivs 10-18-2011 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Furienna (Post 1327282)
George IV was secretly married to a non-royal woman for a while though, wasn't he?

And even though it might not be 100 % historically correct, I have to see that movie some day,

Yes, he married a Roman-Catholic Irishwoman but since he didn't receive the king consent the marriage were invalid.

Furienna 10-20-2011 02:08 PM

And through a quick google search, I found out her name: Maria Fitzherbert.

Well, whether it was vaild or not, I suppose it was that marriage, that the movie referred to.

DWC 11-20-2011 02:30 PM

As this year marked the 250th anniversary of the marriage and coronation of Queen Charlotte a number of events were held throughout the year in her birthplace of Mirow in Mecklenburg. 'Queen Charlotte's Year' came to an end this past Thursday on the anniversary of her death with a Festival of Lights in Mirow.

Mirow Festival of Lights - House of Mecklenburg-Strelitz - www.mecklenburg-strelitz.org

rodomjr 04-19-2012 04:16 PM

Hi! Thank you for post this informative and one day in near future we, deaf/hard of hearing group, plan to travel to Europe include my favorite England King George Hanover III's wife, Queen Sophia Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz's native northwest German! ;) Roosevelt D. Odom Jr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWC (Post 1339243)
As this year marked the 250th anniversary of the marriage and coronation of Queen Charlotte a number of events were held throughout the year in her birthplace of Mirow in Mecklenburg. 'Queen Charlotte's Year' came to an end this past Thursday on the anniversary of her death with a Festival of Lights in Mirow.

Mirow Festival of Lights - House of Mecklenburg-Strelitz - www.mecklenburg-strelitz.org

_____________________________________________
"History is a lie agreed upon" Napoleon Bonaparte

rodomjr 04-19-2012 04:55 PM

Hi! Withering Havoverrians, yes you're correct about people's point of view tend to pre-judge on our facial/physical appearance before our content to character! I called "human nature" and it means some of them are/were so mean to judge us before get know us! :ohmy: ...As deaf African/European/Native-American I choose to be identify as "Deaf Multiracial-American" because it is illegal to slap label us due to Loving vs Virginia case in Superior Court in 1967 (Loving v. Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I am current working on www.deafdiveristy.info which it will be ready within at least 90 days and I invented a word: Queen Sophia Charlotte of Mecklenbury-Strelitz "Monkey-Faced" Syndrome! :hmm: Roosevelt D. Odom Jr.

Withering Hanoverians
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodomjr
.I want to know why they called my favorite Queen Charlotte as "monkey-faced"??? To me her looks is very fine


Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren (Post 269634)
Welcome to TRF rodomjr.
Our modern Western culture is often accused of being looks and body obsessed, but those Hanoverians were downright cruel. Even Queen Victoria in her (many) letters would write at length and in great detail of the imperfections and "ugliness" she would perceive in all manner of people's physical appearance. Not even new-born babies escaped her withering eye. Of course this attitude was not confined to the Queen but was mainstream within society at the time.
.

___________________________________________
"History is a lie agreed upon" Napoleon Bonaparte :napoleon:

Dman 10-27-2012 03:03 PM

Queen Charlotte:
Queen Charlotte | FRONTLINE | PBS

J Kendrick 04-15-2013 02:20 PM

George III: Another royal disease fallacy?
 
https://stats.bbc.co.uk/o.gif?%7ERS%7...S%7E00%7ERS%7E
https://news.bbcimg.co.uk/img/1_0_2/c...ews-blocks.gif
Magazine

15 April 2013 Last updated at 04:22 ET

What was the truth about the madness of George III?

Modern medicine may help us to discover the real reasons behind King George III's erratic behaviour, writes historian Lucy Worsley.
George III is well known in children's history books for being the "mad king who lost America".
In recent years, though, it has become fashionable among historians to put his "madness" down to the physical, genetic blood disorder called porphyria. Its symptoms include aches and pains, as well as blue urine.
The theory formed the basis of a long-running play by Alan Bennett, The Madness of George III, which was later adapted for film starring Nigel Hawthorne in the title role.
However, a new research project based at St George's, University of London, has concluded that George III did actually suffer from mental illness after all.
Using the evidence of thousands of George III's own handwritten letters, Dr Peter Garrard and Dr Vassiliki Rentoumi have been analysing his use of language. They have discovered that during his episodes of illness, his sentences were much longer than when he was well.
A sentence containing 400 words and eight verbs was not unusual. George III, when ill, often repeated himself, and at the same time his vocabulary became much more complex, creative and colourful.
These are features that can be seen today in the writing and speech of patients experiencing the manic phase of psychiatric illnesses such as bipolar disorder.
Mania, or harmful euphoria, is at one end of a spectrum of mood disorders, with sadness, or depression, at the other. George's being in a manic state would also match contemporary descriptions of his illness by witnesses.
They spoke of his "incessant loquacity" and his habit of talking until the foam ran out of his mouth. Sometimes he suffered from convulsions, and his pages had to sit on him to keep him safe on the floor.
The researchers have even thrown doubt on one of the key planks in the case for porphyria, the blue urine. George III's medical records show that the king was given medicine based on gentian. This plant, with its deep blue flowers, is still used today as a mild tonic, but may turn the urine blue.
So maybe it wasn't the king's "madness" that caused his most famous symptom. It could have simply been his medicine.
I interviewed the researchers at St George's for a new documentary series, Fit To Rule: How Royal Illness Changed History.
In this series, I re-examine our kings and queens as individual members of the human race, rather than just as impregnable icons of splendour and power. They suffered many of exactly the same biological and psychological weaknesses as the rest of us - only with rather more serious consequences.
George III's recurring bouts of illness caused him to withdraw from daily business to recuperate out of the public eye at secluded Kew Palace, near Richmond.
Each time he withdrew to Kew, this triggered a crisis - who was to make decisions in his absence?
His son, the Prince of Wales, with whom George III had a terrible relationship, wanted to be appointed regent, and to act as the king in everything but name. But the future George IV was very much associated with the political opposition, and the government was determined to keep him out.
Strikingly, although the crisis caused a good deal of arguing, it was in fact resolved quite easily. This was partly because the king just got better (despite the bizarre and sometimes inhumane treatments given to him by the royal doctors) and partly because he was, by this stage in British history, a constitutional king.
When the Hanoverians had been invited over from Germany in 1714 to take the throne after the failure of the Stuart line, they came at the invitation of Parliament. Parliament therefore held the whip hand over them, and the powers of the monarchy declined.
But despite his illness, George III was a dedicated and diligent king, and won the respect of his politicians. In fact, when his illness drove him off the political scene, they realised how much they needed his calming effect on their squabbles.

It is counter-intuitive to suggest it, but royal health issues can actually strengthen the monarchy, not least by creating sympathy and affection for an afflicted individual.

Garrard also points out how the explanations or diagnoses that we come up with for patients in the past reflect our own current attitudes to sickness and health. One of the reasons that the porphyria argument caught on is because it seemed to remove the supposed stigma of mental health issues from the Royal Family.
And yet, as Garrard notes, porphyria opened up a different set of problems, because as an hereditable illness, George IV, and indeed other members of the Royal Family, became candidates for diagnosis too.
The research project still continues, but Garrard is already confident of one thing. "The porphyria theory is completely dead in the water. This was a psychiatric illness."
But it certainly did not stop George III from being a successful king. In a prosperous, industrialising Britain, it was growing more important for a monarch to reign rather than rule, providing background stability rather than aggressive leadership.
With his 60-year reign, George III certainly provided continuity, and I believe that his short episodes of illness tend unfairly to diminish our views of him.

See: BBC News - What was the truth about the madness of George III?

Mariel 04-15-2013 04:35 PM

This above article by Garrard shows a complete--I mean complete--lack of understanding of Porphyria.

But let me revert to answer an earlier statement by Tiaraprinz, that George suffered from arsenic poisoning rather than Porphyria. Not two different things entirely. Arsenic is one of the strongest triggers to bring inactive porphyria into the active phase. There are many other triggers, but this is one.

Porphyria is known to cause a variety of problems when it is activated. It is a genetic illness in most cases, and often it is not activated, even for a whole lifetime, or for long periods of time. Usually 50% of children get it, 75% if both parents have it, on statistical average, of course.

One problem which may occur is "mental illness". The long sentences and inability to stop talking is one possible symptom, which I believe is based on the lowered focus of the mind which can occur in an attack. It's similar to a person with another neuro illness, MS, who can't "sort" or "file" things well, due to a nerve glitch. This is not true manic/depressive illness, as far as I can see, and I've seen a lot, talked to hundreds of people with porphyria.

The blue urine thing has always been a red herring. People with porphyria often do produce dark or atypically colored urine, but not always. Some doctors are ignorant enough to say that a person with porphyria must always have red urine.
Again, dead wrong. This is a very complex subject so I won't bother you with all the possible colors of the rainbow.

The fact that George would completely recover when an attack passed--typical porphyria.

The basic problem with porphyria is that people who have it are handicapped in the detoxification of triggering substances, such as the above-mentioned arsenic, and many others--new rugs, rug glue, composite wood containing formaldehyde, some types of paint (such as that which poisoned Van Gogh, who had porphyria), formaldehyde wherever it occurs in building materials or in laboratories, such as biology classrooms, some foods which are high in phyto-estorgens, herbicides, pesticides, gasoline fumes, many prescription meds but not all prescription meds, etc. When the substance is finally detoxed, in whatever time period that takes, the person may return to "physical" and "mental" normality. They say George was very normal when he wasn't abnormal.

The handling of this issue has for the most part been preposterous.

Mariel 04-15-2013 08:28 PM

And furthermore, the article above states that the symptoms of porphyria are "aches and pains". Certainly this is an overall description which might apply to various illnesses and does apply to porphyria. However, the two most common signs of porphyria, which could be recognized in the ER, are abdominal pain (specific, not just aches and pains) and mental alteration. Thus, it is called a neuropsychiatric disease.
Sometimes called a neurosomatic disease, recognizing that the pains experienced are due to nerve impairment (in large measure--in chronic cases more organ impairment might be found). The symptoms of ab pain and mental alteration are common to a large percent of acute attacks.

But there are other symptoms caused by the nerve impairment of porphyria, such as spasticity, sometimes similar to what is seen in MS, another nerve-related disease. Tachycardia (very fast pulse) is usually present in attacks. If the type of porphyra has a skin component, rash could be present, either emergent or chronic.
But many types of porphyria do not have a skin component, or do not develop it until late in the course of the disease. PCP is a skin-only type, which is acquired rather than inherited, and we are not talking about this when discussing George III, who had Varigate Porphyria, one of the three main "acute hepatic porphyrias".

There are other subtler symptoms which may emerge over time and may even become chronic, as happened to George III in old age, resulting in the long regency.

Please excuse my long lecture, but false porphyria information has prompted me to give a very short course Porphyria here. Another good source, oddly, is the Wikipedia main presentation on Porphyria. Anyone who comments on Porph in the royal family should at least read Wiki.

J Kendrick 04-16-2013 03:44 PM

... Not to mention the fact that research by Professor John Rohl (one of the three authors of the book "Purple Secret") and his recent exhumation and testing of the remains of George III's great-great-granddaughter Princess Charlotte of Prussia (sister of Kaiser Wilhelm II) had found DNA evidence of the Porphyria mutation... a key detail in this story that the author of this latest BBC report appears to have missed.

Mariel 04-16-2013 09:00 PM

i read the book by Rohl. In the case of Charlotte, the DNA was partially successful (determined one step but not another, this being difficult when remains are old). In the case of Feodora, her remains were mixed in a common grave with those of her husband, according to Rohl, so this was not successful. However, the book is interesting in its catalog of the clinical records of various people on these blood lines, where the investigators could get access to the records. As long as there is secrecy, which is of course their right, there will be room for challenges to this diagnosis of a bloodline. The good news is that removal of inbreeding will help unravel this tangle.

An Ard Ri 01-20-2014 04:45 PM

Mecklenburg’s donation helps revive castle where Queen Charlotte was born

Mecklenburg’s donation helps revive castle where Queen Charlotte was born | CharlotteObserver.com

To thank residents of Mecklenburg County for a $15,000 donation nearly 18 years ago, the county’s German namesake has invited residents to come see what an impact the money had on the renovation of a castle. It’s not just any castle. Mirow Castle [Schloss Mirow] is the 18th-century birthplace of Queen Charlotte, the city’s namesake and the wife of King George III of England. In 1996, Mecklenburg County gave $15,000 to help renovate the castle. Those funds were matched with money raised from private sources.


It was behind the Iron Curtain in East Germany before the Berlin Wall fell and had fallen into disrepair over the years.
In the early 1990s, Mecklenburg County formed a cultural and educational exchange program with the German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, where the castle is located.


D.G. Martin, a Charlotte attorney who traveled to Germany in the early 1990s to search for and discover the area’s links to the Mecklenburg-Vorpommern region, said he is pleased to see the castle returned to its former glory. “We can have some pride in having a small part in that,” he said. More than that, Parks Helms, a former chairman of the Mecklenburg Board of County Commissioners, said that the renovation preserves an important piece of history. “It is important because it is a link to our history, who we are and where we come from,” he said. “It’s important to remember and strengthen the relationship between that community and this community.” He noted that there are more than 150 German companies operating in the Charlotte region.

CyrilVladisla 02-08-2014 07:13 PM

The painter Joshua Reynolds was the first president of the Royal Academy of Arts. The Royal Academy of Arts was founded in 1768 under the patronage of King George III.
George III was a book collector.
From early in his reign he began buying books.
These were paid for entirely from his private resources.
The King eventually owned 65,000 volumes as well as pamphlets, manuscripts, and maps.

The last child of George III and Queen Charlotte, their daughter Princess Amelia, was born five days before the coming of age of the first, the Prince of Wales in 1783.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart performed twice for King George III and Queen Charlotte during his 1764 visit.
Mozart was eight years old.
In private George III and Queen Charlotte called each other Mr. and Mrs. King.

Lee-Z 03-19-2014 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla (Post 1649690)
...The King eventually owned 65,000 volumes as well as pamphlets, manuscripts, and maps.

Where are these now? Are they still in the royal collection?

CyrilVladisla 03-19-2014 02:19 PM

The King's Collection was a royal collection of books created by King George III and donated to the nation.
The collection of books was given to the nation in 1823 by King George IV.
When the library was donated there was not enough space to house it in the original British Museum building.
A gallery was built at the British Museum in 1827 to house them.
In 1997-1998 the books were transferred to their new location in the King's Library Tower in the new British Library building at St. Pancras in London.
In 1786 George III was attacked by a mentally unstable woman while alighting from his carriage.
On the spot, the King declared that she was mad and should be treated humanely, and not be punished.
Queen Charlotte introduced the German custom of the Christmas tree to Windsor Castle. :xmastree2::xmastree2:
George III was the first Hanoverian monarch to have English as his first language.

Queen Charlotte with Prince George the baby
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ch...-20686718.html

Furienna 07-13-2014 05:02 AM

Quote:

In private George III and Queen Charlotte called each other Mr. and Mrs. King.
They did? That's cute!

LauraS3514 07-13-2014 07:32 PM

Of course, at this time in England it was customary for husbands and wives to call each other "Mr. Smith" and "Mrs. Smith" (or use other titles if they had them) in public and many did so even in private. In some circles given names were considered too common and informal for the "right sort" of people. :biggrin:
.

Warren 08-09-2014 12:23 AM

:previous:
Best seen in "Pride and Prejudice" where Mrs Bennet is forever shouting out "Mr Bennet!"

Curryong 09-14-2014 02:03 AM

The future King George III is alleged to have married secretly, on 17th April 1759, a Quaker, Hannah Lightfoot, the daughter of a Wapping shoemaker, who is said to have borne him three children.

Documents relating to this marriage, which bore the Prince's signature, were impounded and examined in 1866 by the Attorney General. Learned opinion at the time leaned to the view that the documents were genuine.

They were placed in the Royal Archives at Windsor. Permission to view them by a would-be author was refused in 1910, and no outsider has seen them since.

If the future King George III did make such a marriage it would have been legal as it was before the Royal Marriages Act (1772.) Therefore, his marriage to Princess Charlotte in 1761 was bigamous.

Page 286. 'Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy'. Alison Weir. 2002.


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