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BeatrixFan 11-22-2005 06:43 PM

Remember Layla, Constantine never abdicated. He's got a perfect right to call himself a King. Just as Michael of Romania has.

kelly9480 11-23-2005 01:36 AM

Michael did abdicate -- at gunpoint, yes, but he did, and therefore he's known as Ex-King to other royal houses.

Constantine has never abdicated his throne, so, even though Greece is a republic and looks set to remain one, he can still be called King.

A king doesn't lose his right to call himself by a title because the people changed their minds. Unless he renounces, and Constantine hasn't done that, he still has the right to call himself King of the Hellenes. Once a king, always a king -- unless he renounces. Should the monarchy ever be restored -- incredibly unlikely, I know -- he would have claim to that throne unless the monarchy was restored under a different family, so your last statement may not necessarily be true.

kelly9480 11-23-2005 04:56 AM

Ignore the patriotism and focus solely on the legal side of Constantine's use of the title. That's what the reigning royal houses do.

It doesn't matter whether you'd ever welcome him or any of his, or any other family, back -- he has the legitimate claim to the monarchy that was re-instated after the Second World War. No one can take that away from him because the claim is passed down through blood. The only way he'd lose that claim was if he abdicated or renounced, and he hasn't done that.

It doesn't matter whether he was respected by his people or his government. He was still the monarch. Charles isn't respected by some of the people or most of the government and he's still the heir. The crown is more important than the head that wears it, so who Constantine is/was as a person was less important than the monarchy as an institution.

The family retains it's royal status, they just no longer reign. They're in the same boat as the other deposed royals running around Europe and Brazil -- always titled, sometimes wealthy, usually powerless.

Warren 11-23-2005 09:37 AM

King Constantine was effectively deposed in 1967. It is now (late) 2005. If the Greek Government and some Greek people feel threatened by his use of the title "King" 38 years after the event, I see it as a reflection of their own insecurity rather than anything else.

In any case, if it is claimed that King Constantine is an irrelevance, what does it matter what he calls himself? The fact that some people find his continued use of the title unsettling is proof that he still has some relevance. Conversely, if the Greek Government is concerned, it stands accused of worrying about irrelevancies. The republicans can't have it both ways.

Warren 11-23-2005 09:54 AM

My understanding of what happened in 1967 is that King Constantine attempted a coup against the generals who had deposed the democratically-elected civilian government. The King's attempt to overturn the military dictatorship failed. The King was then forced to leave the country. I can't see any abandonment in attempting to overthrow a military dictatorship.

In contrast, King Juan Carlos was lauded for protecting the nasceant Spanish democracy against an attempted fascist coup.

susan alicia 11-23-2005 11:09 AM

my mother is greek and I go there often, the Greeks really do not care about the royals.
Constantine is not a man like Juan Carlos is for Spain for instance, so he will never be of any use to Greece.
I also think that they the coup de grace was when Pavlos married MC, zero chance now with a wife like that, they made their bed etc.

Layla1971 11-23-2005 11:20 AM

PLEASE everyone forgive for my insanity today!:o I'm in the middle of moving and jet lag and I'm acting crazy today, I hope I don't always sound like this!:D

Layla1971 11-23-2005 12:50 PM

I will ensure that this post says what I want it to say.:D

Ok, firstly King Constantine was a young and inexperienced king. He took over with little knowledge of the job that awaited him. Add an overbearing, although loving mother and it doesn't seem any easier for him.

I would have taken a different course of action but that may have turned out even worse, it's easy to look back with 20-20 vision and knowledge of all sides and agendas.

The people are divided. Those who were deeply and direcly affected by the regime & aren't aware of the facts (will we ever know all of the facts?) are against the monarchy. Those who see the King as being a victim of circumstances sympathize with him and therefore, obviously don't blame him for the actions of the Colonel's.

I was raised to believe that the monarchy abandoned Greece, that obviously infuences the way I feel about this issue. I must admit that sympathy is coming to me a little more easily as I grow older and as I'm forced to make difficult decisions of my own, although not of the same scale, of course.

The King had a young family, a widowed mother, and his homeland was in chaos, he must have feared for their safety as much as any normal father/husband/son would.

Yes, he did stage a counter-coup which failed, in hindsight he organized the counter-coup as well as he could have considering his lack of skills and experience in politics. That he tried at all should also be remembered, also that he used all of the resources available to him. The motives of this counter-coup still confuse me though.

I don't approve of the actions taken to strip the King of his citizenship, but the property is another matter - there is still debate of what was private and what was state owned property and land. The European Courts dealt with this and the Greek government settled their end of the case. I think it should be left at that until further facts are discovered.

Yes, the King is the current head of the Glucksburg Greek RF, and if the Gluckburgs ever regain the monarchy is Greece then King Constantine would have first divs on the throne.

If the people want another family for their RF then the Glucksburgs are out by the will of the people. I know some will disagree with my opinion of who decides what family should run a country, but the Glucksburgs (led by George I) were elected to reign over Greece, and the decision could be made by the people this time and vote for or against their having a monarch (and whch family) once and for all.

To be honest I think that the Greek government would never allow a new referendum for this issue because it may destabilize their own jobs. If the facts and sympathy were factored in, the people who love the monarchy may just swing the vote in their favor and the monarchy may be restored, leaving the President and most of the Republican politicians out in the cold.

They wouldn't allow this to happen.

So, that's incompetence, inexperience, citizenship and property rights out of the way.

My problem would be that if the monarchy was restored we would have the same King as Head of State that left in the first place.
The King's actions in relation to the coup d'etat will always be in question - not just by me but the media, politicians, citizens, ect. I think that in this case (and it must be a case by case basis) we can give the family and in effect, King Constantine, a second chance at reigning over Greece.

Today's world is unstable, but it is less unstable than it used to be. The people of Greece have more independence than they previously had and they know how to keep and use that power.
They would no allow King Constantine to overstep his bounds and put Greece in any danger, even if it would be unintentionally on the King's part.

He must have learnt something after all this time, he must have gained the maturity and wisdom one needs to be a monarch in any era, not just these days.

In today's world a constitutional monarchy has little more than ceremonial power anyway, the King's signature must be on official dicuments, ect, and of course, when royalty speaks, people tend to listen.
The family would have a certain amount of power - not militarily, but something more damaging if used correctly - the media through their fame. I can't remember who said it, but this reminds me of a saying - the pen is mightier than the sword.
I think the King and his family (because of their socialite lives, if not in spite of them) would know how to use this power afforded them without jeopardizing Greece in doing so.

I believe that my opinion was very much influenced by my family's experience during the dictatorship and they are very forceful in expressing those opinions, so it's hardly any wonder that I have strong opinions too.
Studying international law, I'm studying both the current and past governments - now that includes absolute monarchies, democracy, dictatorshp, communism, and constitutional moarchies.
My opinions are changing the more I study and the more I break free of the ideas instilled during my childhood in favor of the facts as we now know them.

Even though my opinion counts for little, I must say that forgiveness, second chances and moving on doesn't mean the past mistakes - real or imagined - are forgotten, just that they are dealt with in order to focus on the future of the people and of the nation.

I, after studying the facts, must say that while I wouldn't be throwing a party and be full of joy at the occassion, I would no longer be oppsed to the restoration of the Glucksburgs as the Greek Royal Family. There must be conditions made that power given to the King is not any more than is granted to any othe reigning European monarchs and a democratic constitutional monarchy being needed and expected goes without saying.

My previous posts on this subject today were purely out of misguided anger, resentment and whatever else you want to call it that should have been directed at those who are the cause of these feelings, not those who are the closest and easiest targets for my rebellion. In a way being angry with the Greek RF is like being anfry with my family, since the RF is a constant source of argument in my family.
I'm sorry for sounding like I was crazy, but I'm sure we've all had moments of tremendous disruption and pressure in our lives and therefore, we deserve some room to make mistakes and be allowed to move on. Even though my post is about larger more wide-ranging events, understanding my moment of weakness is much like needing to understand the weaknesses of the young King of Greece.

I hope this post is a return to my usual style and that my previous posts will be disregarded as being said in a moment of confusion - rather like in the heat of an argument.

Warren 11-23-2005 09:57 PM


Originally Posted by Layla1971
I hope this post is a return to my usual style and that my previous posts will be disregarded as being said in a moment of confusion - rather like in the heat of an argument.

A welcome return to form, Layla.

:) W

Queens 11-26-2005 05:42 PM

family support...
recently...I have noticed that whenever the greek family has an event like christening or gathering you see the spanish family ( sofia, elena an cristina) with them most of the time to .... but Anne Marie danish family is hardly there... I think it would have been nice if the danes would come and support their greek family since the greeks are always there for the danish functions... has anyone else noticed this or am I making something out of nothing....


kelly9480 11-26-2005 07:11 PM

The Greeks tend to have their major events in Greece or Spain, which may be easier for the Spaniards to attend. Also, Juan Carlos and Felipe, the monarch and the heir, are frequently absent. Just Sofia, her daughters, and Irene. So it's not like the whole Spanish clan is there.

The Danes are somewhat limited in who can come because one adult in line to the throne (excluding Princess Elisabeth who's not a member of the Council) must be in the country at all times unless special permission is sought and received (I think the PM must okay it). This shouldn't be that difficult now, with Margrethe, Benedikte, Frederik and Joachim all eligible, but Margrethe may have duties to attend to, Benedikte had a sick husband for a while, Frederik has a baby to attend to, and Joachim has a farm to run. They may all have something else to do.

When Greek events were being held in London, the Danes were around more, but Ingrid was also alive then, so she may have been responsible for rounding up her brood.

The Greeks are always at Danish events, yes, but it's not like they have royal duties to attend to. They have a lot more free time on their hands.

purple_platinum 12-22-2005 11:00 PM

I keep hearing from GRMB & FIRMB, about this christmas card released by the King, that photoshoped Carlos in?
any idea what that is?

gogm 12-23-2005 12:15 AM

Juan Carlos v Constantine
Queen Frederika was glamorous and a beauty. But she had two drawbacks for the Greek RF. She was German-Prussian with a pro-nazi history and she meddled in politics for right-wing causes. These probably weighed heavily against Constantine. A Greek citizen may have thought "So Constantine is good, but his mother wasn't and maybe his heir won't be either."

I agree with Susan Alicia that Pavlos' marriage pretty much wipes out any chance that Greece will return to a monarchy.:(

purple_platinum 12-23-2005 09:32 AM

Greek Christmas Card 2005
as posted by Lia on Alex B.'s Miller Sisters MB

one oops... little Carlos is photoshoped.. :D

branchg 12-26-2005 12:53 AM

Constantine was the King of the Hellenes until 1967 and reigned in Greece. He has the right to use his style as a formerly reigning Sovereign, which will end with his death.

kelly9480 12-26-2005 06:18 PM

Constantine was king of the Hellenes until the referendum abolishing the monarchy. Just because he fled in 1967 doesn't mean he lost his throne then. He was still king, just in exile.

fandesacs2003 12-28-2005 04:09 PM


Originally Posted by kelly9480
Constantine was king of the Hellenes until the referendum abolishing the monarchy. Just because he fled in 1967 doesn't mean he lost his throne then. He was still king, just in exile.

Right. Costantine left Greece in 1968, but he was the King of the Hellenes till 1974, until the Referendum abolishing the Monarchy. Nevertheless, in the social behavior he keeps his title of King, even if this title has no any legal or political meaning.
Francly speeking, I do not see were is the problem to debate about this title. In the same way that a former President, a Minister or an Ambassador keep their titles, why a former King should abandon his title??? It was something like his "job title", he can keep it.:cool:

rchainho 12-30-2005 06:48 PM

They go to the danish events. Do they speak danish? What language do they speak with danish relatives?

kelly9480 12-31-2005 05:40 PM

Anne-Marie speaks Danish, but Constantine doesn't, so he probably speaks English.

pollyemma 01-11-2006 01:09 PM


Originally Posted by kelly9480
Anne-Marie speaks Danish, but Constantine doesn't, so he probably speaks English.

so what language did they speak during their courtship?

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