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-   -   State Visit from The King and Queen of Spain: November 24-25 2021 (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f22/state-visit-from-the-king-and-queen-of-spain-november-24-25-2021-a-49006.html)

Tatiana Maria 11-17-2021 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 2437874)
Maybe but i still find it nor right to give the an higher Order to a fiancée of an Heir then to a person who is since 11 years married to an Heir. And the changes you have mentioned where apparently already in work by then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2437889)
There is a different King and a different government in Spain right now, so the criteria for decorations may have changed.

Was there previous Spanish precedent for giving the spouse of an heir a lower order than the heir / the same order as the younger sibling of an heir?

lula 11-17-2021 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 2437892)
Maybe but Empress Masako also got the Order of Isabel the catholic as Crown Princess and after just looking at pics even Princess Kiko. And that was during King Felipe's reign. At last they are wearing it in 2017.

They had already received them when Juan Carlos and Sofia visited Japan in 2008, so on 2017 visit no member of the Imperial family received a more important order. The emperors of Japan had been in Spain in 1994, and Juan Carlos and Sofia in Japan in 1980 with emperor Hirohito.

Now Haakon and Naruhito are knights of the order of Charles III, but their wives have the order of Isabella. They both received it in 2008 (after 2002 reform), and on Juan Carlos' second visit to their country.

Kingen 11-17-2021 02:30 PM

A bit weird that Prince Daniel gets a lower order than some Court officials. However, this is not everything. With the times he will get another one.

And it must be a bit fun for Queen Silvia to receive a Royal Order, that can't be often anymore.

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Somebody 11-17-2021 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingen (Post 2437975)
A bit weird that Prince Daniel gets a lower order than some Court officials. However, this is not everything. With the times he will get another one.

And it must be a bit fun for Queen Silvia to receive a Royal Order, that can't be often anymore.

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That's indeed the weirdest part: awarding Daniel as spouse of the heir a lower order than Fredrik Wersäll, Marshall of the King (since 3 years), and Baroness Kirstine von Blixen-Finecke, Mistress of the Robes (since almost 6 years).

An Ard Ri 11-17-2021 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2437977)
That's indeed the weirdest part: awarding Daniel as spouse of the heir a lower order than Fredrik Wersäll, Marshall of the King (since 3 years), and Baroness Kirstine von Blixen-Finecke, Mistress of the Robes (since almost 6 years).

I know even the Dukes of Sussex and York both received the Order of Isabella the Catholic in 2017.

lula 11-17-2021 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 2437980)
I know even the Dukes of Sussex and York both received the Order of Isabella the Catholic in 2017.

They received the Commendation which is one rank less than Grand Cross.

I repeat that this exchange is agreed, so it will be necessary to see what the Swedes grant. I do not know what categories the high positions of the Swedish Court have, but in Spain the Head of the House of the King has a rank equal to that of a Minister of the Government.

Mbruno 11-17-2021 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 2437980)
I know even the Dukes of Sussex and York both received the Order of Isabella the Catholic in 2017.


But, as pointed out before by Lula, the Dukes of Sussex and York got only the Encomienda de Número, which is approximately equivalent to the grade of Knight Commander in the UK. If they had been given the Grand Cross of the Order of Civil Merit, it would have been a higher award in my opinion as, at least in the British order of precedence, a Knight Grand Cross outranks a Knight Commander, even when the former belongs to a lower order than the latter.


As Lula also pointed out, the Order of Isabella the Catholic is normally awarded observing diplomatic reciprocity. It is customary on state visits for the Spanish government to award it to diplomats, government officials and, in this case, members of the Royal Court of the visited country, expecting in return a reciprocal award to Spanish officials (which, in the case of Sweden, would be the Order of the Polar Star). As for the royals, Queen Letizia, I assume, will get the Order of Seraphim, the reciprocal of which would be Queen Silvia being awarded the Order of Charles III. The decorations awarded to Prince Daniel, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia are being given out, on the other hand, with no reciprocal award in return really, which is actually a sign of courtesy extended to the Swedish RF. At least, that is how I see it.

Stefan 11-17-2021 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2437992)

As Lula also pointed out, the Order of Isabella the Catholic is normally awarded observing diplomatic reciprocity. It is customary on state visits for the Spanish government to award it to diplomats, government officials and, in this case, members of the Royal Court of the visited country, expecting in return a reciprocal award to Spanish officials (which, in the case of Sweden, would be the Order of the Polar Star). As for the royals, Queen Letizia, I assume, will get the Order of Seraphim, the reciprocal of which would be Queen Silvia being awarded the Order of Charles III. The decorations awarded to Prince Daniel, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia are being given out, on the other hand, with no reciprocal award in return really, which is actually a sign of courtesy extended to the Swedish RF. At least, that is how I see it.


But then Queen Sofia got the highest swedish order already at her State Visit to Sweden however Queen Silvia did not get the highest spanish Order.
And sometime ago it was mentioned that usually the visiting country awards more Order then country which is visited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingen (Post 2437975)

And it must be a bit fun for Queen Silvia to receive a Royal Order, that can't be often anymore.

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She also has no british Royal Order as Queen Elizabeth II. doesn't bestow Orders on foreign Queen Consorts. Perhaps there is a chance that this gets changed in the next reign which actually is overdue.

Tatiana Maria 11-17-2021 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lula (Post 2437988)
I repeat that this exchange is agreed, so it will be necessary to see what the Swedes grant.

The Spanish heiress does not have a spouse and will not be taking part in the state visit, so I don't think the exchange will shine any light on the reasons why Prince Daniel was treated as equal in rank to Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia rather than equal to the Crown Princess.

lula 11-17-2021 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 2437995)
But then Queen Sofia got the highest swedish order already at her State Visit to Sweden however Queen Silvia did not get the highest spanish Order.
And sometime ago it was mentioned that usually the visiting country awards more Order then country which is visited.

Queen Silvia received the highest distinction of that time for a woman. Until then only Queen Sofia exceptionally, and Juliana and Margrethe as Heads of State had received the Order of Charles III.

The Order of Charles III was only for men, for women there was the Order of Queen María Luisa, but with the restoration of democracy the order of María Luisa was not recovered and women were given the Order of Isabella, until the regulations of the order of Charless III were modified. . For example, the infantas did not receive the order of Charles III until 1988.

An Ard Ri 11-17-2021 04:18 PM

Hopefully queen Letizia will receive The Order of Seraphim.

Stefan 11-17-2021 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lula (Post 2438000)
Queen Silvia received the highest distinction of that time for a woman. Until then only Queen Sofia exceptionally, and Juliana and Margrethe as Heads of State had received the Order of Charles III.

The Order of Charles III was only for men, for women there was the Order of Queen María Luisa, but with the restoration of democracy the order of María Luisa was not recovered and women were given the Order of Isabella, until the regulations of the order of Charless III were modified. . For example, the infantas did not receive the order of Charles III until 1988.


I know but then Queen Sofia should also only have gotten the Order of the Polar Star and not the Seraphim.

Duc_et_Pair 11-17-2021 04:28 PM

It is really very strange that HRH Prince Prince Daniel of Sweden gets a lower order than a Miss Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti who was "just" the fiancée to the Prince of Orange...

Look at this picture: three members "lower" in status than Daniel but nevertheless with the Orden Isabel la Católica: picture

This is really most remarkable because when Victoria is Queen, the Consorts usually get the Orden Carlos III. So Daniel would then skip the "Isabel" or receives it as a Consort which is lower than Claus, Henrik, Bernhard, Philip, etc.

Mary-Rose 11-17-2021 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2438007)
It is really very strange that HRH Prince Prince Daniel of Sweden gets a lower order than a Miss Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti who was "just" the fiancée to the Prince of Orange...

Look at this picture: three members "lower" in status than Daniel but nevertheless with the Orden Isabel la Católica: picture

This is really most remarkable because when Victoria is Queen, the Consorts usually get the Orden Carlos III. So Daniel would then skip the "Isabel" or receives it as a Consort which is lower than Claus, Henrik, Bernhard, Philip, etc.

Even after Lulas Explanation it seems "unfair" Daniel will not receive the higher order.. For your picture, I think Margriet and Peter received the Order already in 1980 when they had a different Order Policy.. It will be interesting to see If Mary might receive the same Order as Daniel and Frederik the same as Victoria, Of course just if there is an state visit in Margrethe reign.. In that case Benedikte has an higher order then Mary, she already has the Isabella Order..

lula 11-17-2021 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 2438004)
I know but then Queen Sofia should also only have gotten the Order of the Polar Star and not the Seraphim.

No, because both received the highest decoration that the country gave according to their rank at that moment. It was impossible for Silvia to receive the order of Charles III as it was impossible for her to receive the Golden Fleece.

Regarding Daniel's order, you are focusing this decision on the Spanish, when both countries have agreed on the exchange. In the case of countries that give several decorations and not the same to the whole family, Victoria and Daniel do not receive the same decoration, and Daniel receives the same as his brother-in-law. So it seems that this is a common pattern in Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ily_by_country

Somebody 11-17-2021 05:55 PM

I can find only one such example from a republic (when Victoria already had an order and Daniel not yet - taking place only seven months after their wedding; those with order (Victoria, CG and Silvia) got a higher one, the others (Daniel and CP) got the one that the others had previously). I don't think we can take that as a general rule.

Moreover, you seem to suggest that Sweden can order Spain to hand out specific orders. While I am sure some consultations are taking place, that doesn't mean that this was Sweden's preference.

Mbruno 11-17-2021 06:03 PM

I don’t think the situations of Spain and Sweden are directly comparable in this case. Currently the King of Sweden has only two orders to bestow; the Order of the Seraphim and the Order of the Polar Star, and, according to regulations, the Order of the Seraphim can be awarded only to Heads of State or people of equivalent rank. King Carl Gustaf already stretches the rules by awarding the Seraphim to consorts and even to Crown Princes.

JR76 11-17-2021 08:27 PM

As was discussed on the forums a few days ago in the thread about precedence Daniel at the moment seems to be the lowest ranking (male?) member of the Swedish Royal family. If that is the case he is awarded his order correctly according to his rank.

Stefan 11-18-2021 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2438027)
I don’t think the situations of Spain and Sweden are directly comparable in this case. Currently the King of Sweden has only two orders to bestow; the Order of the Seraphim and the Order of the Polar Star, and, according to regulations, the Order of the Seraphim can be awarded only to Heads of State or people of equivalent rank. King Carl Gustaf already stretches the rules by awarding the Seraphim to consorts and even to Crown Princes.


One can also say the King of Sweden is more generous in awarding Orders then the King of Spain who has more Orders to bestow.

For example i noticed that King Felipe was already bestowed the Order of the Seraphim in 1991 (don't know which occasion) but CP Victopria still has no spanish Order.

LadyFinn 11-18-2021 02:58 AM

Beridna Högvakten (The Mounted Guard) at its website:

A new chance to see our nice horses in a cortege.
TM King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia of Spain pay a state visit to Sweden on 24–25 November 2021 at the invitation of H.M. The King.
The cortege from The Royal Stables to the Royal Palace on Wednesday 24 November, around 11.40.
Statsbesök 24 november – Beridna Högvakten


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