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-   -   Death & Funeral of Princess Alix of Luxembourg, Dowager Princess of Ligne: Feb. 2019 (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/death-and-funeral-of-princess-alix-of-luxembourg-dowager-princess-of-ligne-feb-2019-a-46123.html)

Duc_et_Pair 02-12-2019 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2196426)
Quick -in between- question: Why is Olympia not listed as countess? Her mother's cousins (Francois and Nicolay) are listed as counts and also have a (princess de Ligne and) count as father just like Olympia.

In French and similar nobiliary systems titles are often hereditary from male to male only:

For an example see Anne-Aymone Sauvage de Brantes (wife of former President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing). She is the daughter of the Comte de Brantes but is not styled comtesse de Brantes herself.

See Bernadette Chodron de Courcel (wife of former President Jacques Chirac). She is the daughter of the Baron de Courcel but is not styled baronne de Courcel herself.

See the mother of Delphine Boël. She is the daughter of the Baron de Selys Longchamps. In Dutch language sites I see her styled as barones, but in French language sites only as De Selys Longchamps, without baronne.

Moonmaiden23 02-12-2019 05:33 PM

Beloeil is one of the most beautiful and enchanting palaces I have ever seen....it reminds me of Versailles from.:smile:

Tatiana Maria 02-12-2019 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2196443)
In French and similar nobiliary systems titles are often hereditary from male to male only:

For an example see Anne-Aymone Sauvage de Brantes (wife of former President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing). She is the daughter of the Comte de Brantes but is not styled comtesse de Brantes herself.

See Bernadette Chodron de Courcel (wife of former President Jacques Chirac). She is the daughter of the Baron de Courcel but is not styled baronne de Courcel herself.

I believe the French system is different from the Belgian.

In the Belgian system hereditary titles are generally, albeit not in every case, hereditary from males to all their male and female children.

Take this 2001 Royal Decree for example in which then-Princess Mathilde is called
La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
even though her father, not she, was awarded the title of Count in 1999.


I am less familiar with the French system, but my understanding is that French hereditary titles are generally (though likewise, not in every case) hereditary by male primogeniture. However, in practice, younger children are oftentimes styled with courtesy titles. In some families, this practice is extended only to sons and not daughters.


Quote:

See the mother of Delphine Boël. She is the daughter of the Baron de Selys Longchamps. In Dutch language sites I see her styled as barones, but in French language sites only as De Selys Longchamps, without baronne.
ETA: That is an interesting difference. Jacques Boël also appears to be styled without écuyer in French language sites. Do they perhaps simply rely less on titles?

Biri 02-12-2019 05:44 PM

Young Alix - My God, how much she resembles Diana Spencer here!

Royal Musings

Duc_et_Pair 02-13-2019 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2196461)
I believe the French system is different from the Belgian.

In the Belgian system hereditary titles are generally, albeit not in every case, hereditary from males to all their male and female children.

Take this 2001 Royal Decree for example in which then-Princess Mathilde is called
La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
even though her father, not she, was awarded the title of Count in 1999.


I am less familiar with the French system, but my understanding is that French hereditary titles are generally (though likewise, not in every case) hereditary by male primogeniture. However, in practice, younger children are oftentimes styled with courtesy titles. In some families, this practice is extended only to sons and not daughters.




ETA: That is an interesting difference. Jacques Boël also appears to be styled without écuyer in French language sites. Do they perhaps simply rely less on titles?


Most likely it indeed depends on the precize wording in Decrees of Nobility and/or the customs inside a family, I think. Emmanuelle de Dampierre (grandmother of Luis Alfonso de Borbón) was also never styled as vicomtesse de Dampierre, despite being the daughter of le vicomte Roger de Dampierre and of Vittoria dei principi Ruspoli.

Stéphanie de Lannoy and her sisters are indeed styled Comtesse de Lannoy :
https://www.inmemoriam.be/nl/2012-08...-saint-empire/

maria-olivia 02-13-2019 05:47 AM

For all the Posters , I found the annoucement of Son Altesse le Prince (Antoine) de LIGNE who passed away in 2005.
You may see that in Belgium a Lady keeps her tittle she received by birth.

S.A. le Prince et S.A.R. la Princesse Michel de LIGNE
LL.AA. le Prince et la Princesse Wauthier de LIGNE
S.A. la Princesse Anne de LIGNE
LL.AA.RR. le Prince et la Princesse Antoine de ORLEANS e BRAGANCA
S.A. la Princesse Sophie de LIGNE
LL.AA. le Prince et la Princesse Lamoral de LIGNE
Mr. et S.A. Mrs Hugo TOWNSEND

Please , do not contest this , this is official.

maria-olivia 02-15-2019 06:51 AM

I wonder which Royal will attend the Funerals ?.
I suppose Grand Duke Henri , in name of his frail Father, the Grand Duchess MT if she is not in Paris.
Princesses Marie Astrid, Margaretha and Sybilla will attend.
The Hed Grand Dukes I am not sure.
A belgian Royal , I am not sure too.

eya 02-16-2019 05:45 AM

Galleries from the funeral today

https://www.belgaimage.be/#/gallery/6456534

https://www.rexfeatures.com/set/10108462

The Grand Ducal Family was of course there, and Prince Laurent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 2197380)
I did not see Grand Duke Henri's Children, nor Archduchess Marie Astrid and family..

Archduchess Marie Astrid was attend

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DziQHaeX0AEvrlT.jpg

An interested full report for the funeral from the Royalement Blog:

https://t.co/TIMaxwGHwf

Somebody 02-16-2019 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 2196558)
For all the Posters , I found the annoucement of Son Altesse le Prince (Antoine) de LIGNE who passed away in 2005.
You may see that in Belgium a Lady keeps her tittle she received by birth.

S.A. le Prince et S.A.R. la Princesse Michel de LIGNE
LL.AA. le Prince et la Princesse Wauthier de LIGNE
S.A. la Princesse Anne de LIGNE
LL.AA.RR. le Prince et la Princesse Antoine de ORLEANS e BRAGANCA
S.A. la Princesse Sophie de LIGNE
LL.AA. le Prince et la Princesse Lamoral de LIGNE
Mr. et S.A. Mrs Hugo TOWNSEND

Please , do not contest this , this is official.

I assume you meant to say that a princess keeps her style instead of her title? Because the above shows princess Yolande de Ligne as 'SA Mrs Hugo Townsend', not as 'SA princess Yolande de Ligne' and princess Eleanora as SAR instead of SA but combined with her husband's title, not her birth title.

Two married princesses Anne and Sophie are shown without their husbands. In their cases their birth title is indeed mentioned, intead of being referenced as SA mrs Olivier Mortgat and SA countess Philippe de Nicolay. So, I'm not sure what to make of it. Why are all children-in-law mentioned except for these two sons-in-law?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 2197346)
First Gallery from the funeral today

https://www.belgaimage.be/#/gallery/6456534

The Grand Ducal Family was of course there, and Prince Laurent.

Glad to see that grand duke Jean was able to attend his sister's funeral. As siblings, he and sister Marie-Gabrielle were most likely the only ones who have known her her whole life.

An Ard Ri 02-16-2019 07:10 AM

I'm also happy to see Grand Duke Jean present was surprised to see Prince Laurent at the funeral Mass.

Duc_et_Pair 02-16-2019 08:59 AM

I could not find this thread. It is enlisted under Royal Family of Belgium, while Princess Alix de Luxembourg, de Nassau, de Bourbon de Parme has nothing to do with the Belgian royal family.

Good to see her brother, Grand-Duc Jean. Good to see Laurent, but he did no effort to honour the dresscode (jacquet).

maria-olivia 02-16-2019 09:05 AM

I did not see Grand Duke Henri's Children, nor Archduchess Marie Astrid and family..

Somebody ,
My english is not fluent , I should have said I presume their style and not their tittle . I don't even know the difference. Thanks for correcting. MO

iceflower 02-16-2019 09:48 AM

.

Here's another gallery of the funeral:


** gettyimages gallery **

Somebody 02-16-2019 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 2197381)
Somebody ,
My english is not fluent , I should have said I presume their style and not their tittle . I don't even know the difference. Thanks for correcting. MO

In short, style is the '(Royal) Highness' and title is for example 'princess de Ligne'.

Your message was interesting as it indeed showed that they used their style while not using their title and in some daughters being addressed by their title (husband not mentioned) and others by their husband's. That part I still don't understand.

Tatiana Maria 02-16-2019 10:02 AM

As the ruling houses of Belgian and Luxembourg appear extremely close, I am glad the former was able to send a representative to Princess Alix's funeral (and hopefully send one to the memorial service in Luxembourg).


Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2197350)
I assume you meant to say that a princess keeps her style instead of her title? Because the above shows princess Yolande de Ligne as 'SA Mrs Hugo Townsend', not as 'SA princess Yolande de Ligne' and princess Eleanora as SAR instead of SA but combined with her husband's title, not her birth title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 2197381)
Somebody ,
My english is not fluent , I should have said I presume their style and not their tittle . I don't even know the difference. Thanks for correcting. MO

The style Highness generally (with rare exceptions) depends on a title, so the mention of the style shows that the title was kept, even if not shown. Belgian married women maintain their birth names and titles in legal documentation, even if they prefer to be referenced with their husbands' titles.

For comparison, take the earlier examples of Mathilde of Belgium and Alix of Ligne: They were generally called by the titles they acquired after marriage, but their birth titles were maintained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2196293)
The announcement from the Grand-Ducal Court of Luxembourg:

Décès de Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Alix - Cour Grand-Ducale de Luxembourg - Février 2019

Notice the Grand-Ducal Court styles her as "Her Royal Highness Princess Alix, Princess of Ligne, Princess of Luxembourg". It is the same as in the Belgian royal family (but different from the Dutch royal family): "Princess (First name)" is a titular dignity which is separate from "Princess of (Name of country)".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2196461)
La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad


Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2197350)
Two married princesses Anne and Sophie are shown without their husbands. In their cases their birth title is indeed mentioned, intead of being referenced as SA mrs Olivier Mortgat and SA countess Philippe de Nicolay. So, I'm not sure what to make of it. Why are all children-in-law mentioned except for these two sons-in-law?

It seems to be convention that divorcees in the Belgian nobility revert to using their birth names and divorced ex-children-in-law are not mentioned in announcements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2197377)
I could not find this thread. It is enlisted under Royal Family of Belgium, while Princess Alix de Luxembourg, de Nassau, de Bourbon de Parme has nothing to do with the Belgian royal family.

This is most likely because she was chiefly a Princess of Ligne, styled by her married title and based at the castle of the Ligne family. The Lignes are listed under Royal Family of Belgium as a Belgian noble family. :flowers:

Somebody 02-16-2019 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 2197380)
I did not see Grand Duke Henri's Children, nor Archduchess Marie Astrid and family..

I wouldn't typically expect people to attend the funeral of their greataunt unles they have a close relationship. I would also have expected Marie-Astrid and Carl Christian to atend. Did you see Jean, Diane, Guillaume, Sibilla and all their paternal cousins (I don't think I would recognize most of the latter)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2197388)
The style Highness generally (with rare exceptions) depends on a title, so the mention of the style shows that the title was kept, even if not shown. Belgian married women maintain their birth names and titles in legal documentation, even if they prefer to be referenced with their husbands' titles.

For comparison, take the earlier examples of Mathilde of Belgium and Alix of Ligne: They were generally called by the titles they acquired after marriage, but their birth titles were maintained.

Wouldn't that generally be the rule? To me the weird part is the mixing of style and the way they are addressed, especially when not using a noble title at all. But this explanation makes sense, the style refers to the title that they decide to hide but still hold.

Quote:

It seems to be convention that divorcees in the Belgian nobility revert to using their birth names and divorced ex-children-in-law are not mentioned in announcements.
Thanks for that update. Then it makes complete sense. I looked them up as I wondred whether they miht be divorced and couldn't find information on a divorce, which is why I referred to husbands.

Tatiana Maria 02-16-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2197390)
Wouldn't that generally be the rule? To me the weird part is the mixing of style and the way they are addressed, especially when not using a noble title at all. But this explanation makes sense, the style refers to the title that they decide to hide but still hold.

Exactly; by the conventional rules of most of the royal and noble families of Europe, a married woman is addressed with her husband's title combined with the highest ranked style she holds (which may be the one attached to her husband's title or the one attached to her hidden birth title), but continues to hold both her birth and married titles even when not using them.

However, within the trends towards gender equality and marriage to commoners, it has become less rare that a married woman decides to be addressed with her birth title or style. For example, in 1991, the Belgian royal court ceased to address Princess Astrid as "Her Imperial and Royal Highness" and "Archduchess Astrid of Austria-Este" and began to address her as "Her Royal Highness" and "Princess Astrid of Belgium" (likewise with her children).
Princess Astrid of Belgium

Her Royal Highness Princess Astrid, Princess of Belgium, was born in Brussels on 5 June 1962. She is the second child of King Albert II and Queen Paola.

Princess Astrid | The Belgian Monarchy

The other members of the Royal Family are also attended by a staff for the functions they exercise in the name of the King, and fall under the various Households and Services: The Household of His Majesty King Albert, the Service of Her Royal Highness Princess Astrid and the Service of His Royal Highness Prince Laurent.

Royal household | The Belgian Monarchy

MAfan 02-16-2019 12:40 PM

Also her sister-in-law Archduchess Yolande of Austria was in attendance.

HereditaryPrincess 02-16-2019 05:28 PM

I was very pleasantly surprised to see Laurent as the Belgian representative considering that he rarely attends events within his own immediate family! It was also nice to see that Jean could make it. Despite being less mobile than he was, he seemed well.

maria-olivia 02-16-2019 05:28 PM

The Prince de Ligne (Michel) wore the Order of the Golden Fleece. His Father was also Knight of the Order. Only 3 belgian Noble Families are.

Great Royal/Noble Dignity Funerals of a beloved Mother , Grandmother ,Sister and more.
Prince Laurent is Prince Lamoral's friend.
They did well !


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