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-   -   State Visit from The King and Queen of The Netherlands: October 23-24, 2018 (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/state-visit-from-the-king-and-queen-of-the-netherlands-october-23-24-2018-a-45147.html)

Princess Larisa 07-03-2018 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 2129119)
The late prince Claus still received the Victorian order. The late prince Bernhard received the order of Bath. But it seems that things have changed as Queen Letizia did not receive an order last year.

Nothing has changed. The Queen has always given orders to MALE consorts and nothing to the female consorts. :glare:

Mbruno 07-03-2018 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Larisa (Post 2129150)
Nothing has changed. The Queen has always given orders to MALE consorts and nothing to the female consorts. :glare:


Exactly. Both Prince Claus and Prince Henrik received orders from Queen Elizabeth II, but she has never giiven a British order to to a foreign queen consort.


I wonder why she does that.

Marengo 07-03-2018 04:31 PM

Perhaps a tradition inherited from previous reigns?

Though Prince Bernhard received his order only in 1958, so during Queen Elizabeth's state visit to the Netherlands, and not during Juliana's state visit to George VI.

Prince Hendrik (of The Netherlands) received the order of Bath in 1907 from Edward VII. Not during a state visit (there were none from or to the UK in the years he was a prince consort) but for his role during the shipping disaster in Hook of Holland, where the British steam ferry SS Berlin - from Harwich - broke in two on the pier & 128 people drowned. Prince Hendrik -with top hat and white gloves- was on a boat that saved 11 people from the wreck. The prince was praised for his 'heroism' and ended up on the front pages of the (inter)national newspapers. It was a marking point in an otherwise sad life.

Non-related Queen consorts apparently did not receive orders, f.e. Queen Elisabeth of the Belgians only received an order of the British red cross and not a royal order, while she did accompany her husband -who had the Garter and the Bath orders- on a state visit to the UK. The same goes for Queen Elena of Italy, who did not receive a British order while her husband did. (Closely) related Queen consorts such as Marie of Romania and the Empress Alexandra received the order of Victoria and Albert.

Dman 07-03-2018 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2129156)
Exactly. Both Prince Claus and Prince Henrik received orders from Queen Elizabeth II, but she has never giiven a British order to to a foreign queen consort.


I wonder why she does that.

I have no idea and itís rather strange. I think she may be following some precedence.

An Ard Ri 07-03-2018 04:36 PM

The late Prince Henrik of Denmark had 3 British Orders!

Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath
Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George
Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order

Princess Larisa 07-03-2018 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2129156)

I wonder why she does that.

No one knows why.
I just assumed that this was how her father did things and she continued when becoming Queen so young. By the time things became more egalitarian in society she probably didnít want to change things. Will be interesting how Charles does things, since apparently Camilla didnít get a Spanish Order because of this.

ROYAL NORWAY 07-03-2018 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLK (Post 2129093)
Ouch! This is a very rude headline IMO.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...-meghan-markle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 2129097)
No surprise from the Express. It is the worst of all tabloids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyevale (Post 2129099)
TRUE.. and in a VERY 'competitive field'...

Don't tell me about it.

Although known as the ''Daily Diana'' during the 1990s/2000s (due to all their ridiculous stories/front pages about her), the Express was actually VERY pro-Queen and pro-monarchy - and even quite serious in their royal coverage from 2006 to 2013.
Both the paper/online versions had an almost over-exaggerated coverage of the Queen's 80th Birthday in 2006 and the Diamond Jubilee in 2012, where she was praised like no other (the only newspaper who beat them in coverage/praising was the Telegraph, the most pro-monarchy newspaper in the UK).

So what happened? Well, when William came under criticism from the media for ''not wanting to be a full time working royal'' in 2013 and for the expensive renovations of apartment A1 in 2014, the Express found out that such kind of stories makes more people click on the articles, so they changed their royal covering style.
And when William was criticized for only working 80 hours a month as an air ambulance pilot in early 2016 - and was called workshy, lazy, uncharismatic and boring, the Expresssbused it for all it's worth and again changed their royal covering style (this time to the extreme).

--------------------

Now, they're worse than ever with their false stories (copied from gossip magazines), their factual errors and their utterly ridiculous headlines. - Even the DF is serious in comparison, something I never thought I should say, but I said it.

Somebody 07-03-2018 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2129073)
Actually, by GDP size, the Netherlands must be only the fifth largest continental economy after Germany, France, Italy and Spain. However, the British seem to have this ( in my opinion mistaken) perception that they can lure the Dutch to be on their side in the Brexit negotiations.

But the second monarchy :smile: after Spain who already visited.

Zaira 07-03-2018 09:23 PM

IMO, some traditions should be broken and giving an order to the male consort but not female ones is one of them. Absolutely out of date, but then again, the Queen is IMO (for the most part, please don't pelt me with a history lesson) loathed to change things unless she is forced to so there is that.

I LOVE Maxima, so I am excited for this visit, but sad the Sussexes will not be able to attend. Hopefully Kate will attend/be done with maternity leave (although I know she is technically allowed to take a full year) so we can get a nice array of tiaras! I expect Queen Maxima to bring out her big gun tiaras for the visit.

Maxima has a history of being a real support to other consorts (Charlene, Masako, Letizia) so I do hope she and Catherine have an event together! Camilla as well.

Dman 07-03-2018 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaira (Post 2129256)
IMO, some traditions should be broken and giving an order to the male consort but not female ones is one of them. Absolutely out of date, but then again, the Queen is IMO (for the most part, please don't pelt me with a history lesson) loathed to change things unless she is forced to so there is that.

I LOVE Maxima, so I am excited for this visit, but sad the Sussexes will not be able to attend. Hopefully Kate will attend/be done with maternity leave (although I know she is technically allowed to take a full year) so we can get a nice array of tiaras! I expect Queen Maxima to bring out her big gun tiaras for the visit.

Maxima has a history of being a real support to other consorts (Charlene, Masako, Letizia) so I do hope she and Catherine have an event together! Camilla as well.

Yes, some things should change and the Queen Consorts should get an Order during State Visits.

Duc_et_Pair 07-04-2018 08:49 AM

The Queen and the Duke hold the premier state honour (Orde van de Nederlandsche Leeuw) and the premier dynastical honour (Orde in de Gouden Leeuw van het Huis Nassau).

The Prince of Wales holds the second state honour (Orde van Oranje-Nassau) and the second dynastical honour (Huisorde van Oranje).

The Princess Royal holds the second dynastical honour (Huisorde van Oranje).

We have seen in Denmark that the King sometimes makes an unusual step: the premier state honour for Crown Prince Frederik and - Princess Mary. This was exceptional.

My prediction:

The Prince of Wales will get the premier state honour as well (Orde van de Nederlandsche Leeuw), making him the holder of three Dutch honours.

Unlike Crown Princess Mary, this Order will not be given to The Duchess of Cornwall. Reason: the lack of British reciprocity, no British state honour for Queen MŠxima. However... I do not rule out that King Willem-Alexander will ignore this and bestow Camilla the same Order as Charles. Who knows?

Based on usual logic:

The Duchess of Cornwall will be given the second dynastical Order (Huisorde van Oranje) alike Diana.

The Duke of Cambridge will receive this too.

The Duchess of Cambridge will receive this too.

The Duke of York will receive this too.

The Earl of Wessex will receive this too.

The Countess of Wessex will receive this too.

The Princess Royal already holds said Order.



Other members of the British royal family will receive no honour from the King, maybe just a commemorative medal.

That is my prediction.

Duc_et_Pair 07-04-2018 09:18 AM

The fifth of the remaining 27 EU states is a big economy. Bigger dan Sweden, or Austria, or Belgium, or Denmark, or Poland, or Portugal, etc.

Plus one has to look to the regionality of the economy. The giants Royal Dutch Shell and Royal Unilever are Anglo-Dutch mergers. Dutch companies as Philips or AkzoNobel own major premises in the UK. Albello (a daughter of Netherlands Railways) exploits large public transportation concessions on the British isles. The uranium enrichment company Urenco is Anglo-Dutch as well. Dutch energy and water companies have a firm chunk in the British market. The British have always seen the Dutch and the Scandinavians as their "natural allies" in Europe. In general the Dutch and the Scandinavians always tried to use the UK as a counter weight against the mighty Axis Berlin-Paris, or as a counter weight of North European interests against South European sort of politics. The British will hope to find an understanding ear in the Brexit process. Never underestimate centuries old bonds between neighbours.

Another bond is that with Mary I Stuart, Mary II Stuart and Anne of Hanover there were three British consorts. It could have been four, was the engagement between Charlotte of Wales and Willem not abruptly broken up.

Mbruno 07-04-2018 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2129335)
The Queen and the Duke hold the premier state honour (Orde van de Nederlandsche Leeuw) and the premier dynastical honour (Orde in de Gouden Leeuw van het Huis Nassau).

The Prince of Wales holds the second state honour (Orde van Oranje-Nassau) and the second dynastical honour (Huisorde van Oranje).

The Princess Royal holds the second dynastical honour (Huisorde van Oranje).

We have seen in Denmark that the King sometimes makes an unusual step: the premier state honour for Crown Prince Frederik and - Princess Mary. This was exceptional.

My prediction:

The Prince of Wales will get the premier state honour as well (Orde van de Nederlandsche Leeuw), making him the holder of three Dutch honours.

Unlike Crown Princess Mary, this Order will not be given to The Duchess of Cornwall. Reason: the lack of British reciprocity, no British state honour for Queen MŠxima. However... I do not rule out that King Willem-Alexander will ignore this and bestow Camilla the same Order as Charles. Who knows?

Based on usual logic:

The Duchess of Cornwall will be given the second dynastical Order (Huisorde van Oranje) alike Diana.

The Duke of Cambridge will receive this too.

The Duchess of Cambridge will receive this too.

The Duke of York will receive this too.

The Earl of Wessex will receive this too.

The Countess of Wessex will receive this too.

The Princess Royal already holds said Order.



Other members of the British royal family will receive no honour from the King, maybe just a commemorative medal.

That is my prediction.




According to your predictions, it looks like King Willem-Alexander is very generous in giving out orders !



I am not so sure that the Duke of York or the Wessexes will be decorated, but I agree with your other predictions.

cepe 07-04-2018 09:52 AM

The problem with british orders is that they are very specific re reasons for giving ( ie OofBath usually civil servants or military) and the highest order(Garter) does not have secondary levels.

The RVO could be used but why HMQ doesnt do that is a mystery. I think Charles will be more generous.

Duc_et_Pair 07-04-2018 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 2129346)
The problem with british orders is that they are very specific re reasons for giving ( ie OofBath usually civil servants or military) and the highest order(Garter) does not have secondary levels.

The RVO could be used but why HMQ doesnt do that is a mystery. I think Charles will be more generous.

The Dutch King uses a "loophole" by granting dynastic honours. For this the King signs a Hofbesluit (Court Decree) which needs no ministerial contraseign. So we can say that these honours fall out of the framework of the bilateral agreements and are a sign of personal appreciation. Queen Juliana did so in 1972 to Charles and Anne. Queen Beatrix in 1982 to Diana. In both years Andrew and Edward did not take part.

In 1982 a Koninklijk Besluit (Royal Decree) was needed, with ministerial contraseign, to grant a state honour to Charles. This wil be needed again in 2018 for another state honour.

The eventual dynastic honours to Camilla, William, Catherine etc. just require the King's own will and pleasure. The Chancellery of the Netherlands' Orders will prepare the gift boxes and the accompanying original Decree in a velvet cilinder.

Madame Verseau 07-04-2018 11:52 AM

At this point Kate should have a Royal Family Order.

Rudolph 07-04-2018 12:02 PM

Itíll be nice to see the Cambridges during the State visit. The King and Queen were at W&Cís wedding plus Catherine met up with and had lunch with the King during her visit to the Netherlands.

Catherine and Maxima were on the balcony together for the remembrance service. Pics showed them talking and smiling.

An Ard Ri 07-04-2018 12:48 PM

Any chance of the king being overly generous and giving Princess Michael of Kent her 1st royal order ;)

wartenberg7 07-04-2018 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 2129176)
The late Prince Henrik of Denmark had 3 British Orders!

Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath
Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George
Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order


This, to prefer men in honouring them by giving them orders towards women, only because of their sex, cannot be kept in the next reign! Even more so as Britain said "bye bye" to male succession when at first a girl is born!

Queens (consorts) hold the title of a Majesty, exactly as the Queen herself, while Prince consorts, as we all know, do not! So, if you really want to prefer one certain sex and follow this logic of the different titles of consorts, it should be the ladies who are to prefer when it comes to orders!
So why the british Queen, and only she, sticks stubbornly to this outdated concept of male preference without any substance to it, is beyond me!


Perhaps the idea is from the past when orders had a strong military connection, when Princes or Dukes had to go out in campaign and were honoured when they returned victorious while royal women of course didnī t ? But that is soooo long gone....!

Osipi 07-04-2018 01:02 PM

I think when it comes to orders and Queen Elizabeth II, there are no rules and there are no protocols and its all entirely up to the will and the pleasure of the monarch in cases like this. The only person that really knows how it all works and why it works the way it does is the Queen, herself, and she ain't telling. :smile:


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