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Westfield Bakery 03-24-2017 11:38 PM

Will Princess Charlotte of Cambridge get the Princess Royal title?
 
William, Duke of Cambridge's daughter, Charlotte, will be a very important Royal when her father becomes King William V. Will the Princess of Cambridge receive the title of Princess Royal, as her great-aunt, Princess Anne, Princess Royal?

WreathOfLaurels 03-24-2017 11:43 PM

I don't see why not? It's possible that Charlotte could end up as de jure duchess of York if the BRF adopt the Swedish practice of granting duches to all royal children and grandchildren.

Ish 03-25-2017 12:05 AM

If she wasn't made Princess Royal she would be the first person eligible to receive the title to not in 300 years.

Countessmeout 03-25-2017 12:16 AM

The only reason she won't, is if Anne is still alive when Charles dies. Anne will hold the title till she dies.

Charlotte as it stands is one of two kids of William V in the future. Unlike Elizabeth, there aren't cousins and extra family.

I would be surprised if she isn't given her own title on marriage. With the change in succession laws, how peerages are appointed and inherited is likely to change. Like Harry and his future dude will be expected to work, especially when Georgr is young, Charlotte will be the same. Until George has kids and they are adults and ready to work, she will be backup to George. Seems right she have a title of her own, reflecting the changes.

Westfield Bakery 03-25-2017 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countessmeout (Post 1970865)
The only reason she won't, is if Anne is still alive when Charles dies. Anne will hold the title till she dies.

Charlotte as it stands is one of two kids of William V in the future. Unlike Elizabeth, there aren't cousins and extra family.

I would be surprised if she isn't given her own title on marriage. With the change in succession laws, how peerages are appointed and inherited is likely to change. Like Harry and his future dude will be expected to work, especially when Georgr is young, Charlotte will be the same. Until George has kids and they are adults and ready to work, she will be backup to George. Seems right she have a title of her own, reflecting the changes.

She could be like her grandaunt in 1973 and decline a title. Anne didn't want a title for her husband, Mark Phillips or her children.

Iluvbertie 03-25-2017 01:23 AM

It must be remembered that Anne has to die for this title to be available again. It maybe that William will give it to his daughter if Anne dies during or before his reign but if she outlives him then Charlotte won't be eligible for that title. In the normal course of events she would do so but that isn't a given.

As for giving Charlotte a title in her own right - such as Duchess of York - that would go against tradition.

It is more likely that gender blind succession to titles would be introduced and thus Beatrice would inherit the title rather than it is recreated for Charlotte.

Countessmeout 03-25-2017 01:38 AM

:previous: Gender blind succession against tradition as well :ermm: It wouldn't be the first for either.

It makes sense. Sorry, but if you are going to make the throne and peerages equal inheritance, then it's ridiculous not to give peerages to women. If a woman in parliament can be made a baroness, a princess surely can be made a duchess.

But not York. I am all for Bea being given it.

I actually think she should be Duchess of Cambridge. When her father becomes king, the title merges with the crown. George won't need it, he will be Prince of Wales. It would be fitting for Cambridge to be remade for Charlotte on her wedding, since she will grow up with it as her designation.

WreathOfLaurels 03-25-2017 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1970873)
It must be remembered that Anne has to die for this title to be available again. It maybe that William will give it to his daughter if Anne dies during or before his reign but if she outlives him then Charlotte won't be eligible for that title. In the normal course of events she would do so but that isn't a given.

As for giving Charlotte a title in her own right - such as Duchess of York - that would go against tradition.

It is more likely that gender blind succession to titles would be introduced and thus Beatrice would inherit the title rather than it is recreated for Charlotte.

Beatrice can't inherit the York dukedom as the letters patent issued to Andrew in 1986 won't allow that. B could be granted it as a new creation when Andrew dies but given that she will probably be not wanted (rightly or wrongly) as a working royal, I don't see this
Happening.

Iluvbertie 03-25-2017 02:45 AM

Currently Beatrice can't inherit the York title sure ... but there have been a number of attempts to allow for gender blind inheritance of titles - that is my point - that is that happens then Beatrice would be the heir to the York title.

The Queen could also issue new LPs - to allow for gender blind inheritance, for Beatrice alone to inherit or for 'in lieu of heirs male, heirs female'.

I suspect though that the argument for first born to inherit all titles has more chance of getting through the Houses of Parliament as a law than the Queen issuing new LPs.

WreathOfLaurels 03-25-2017 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1970892)
Currently Beatrice can't inherit the York title sure ... but there have been a number of attempts to allow for gender blind inheritance of titles - that is my point - that is that happens then Beatrice would be the heir to the York title.

The Queen could also issue new LPs - to allow for gender blind inheritance, for Beatrice alone to inherit or for 'in lieu of heirs male, heirs female'.

I suspect though that the argument for first born to inherit all titles has more chance of getting through the Houses of Parliament as a law than the Queen issuing new LPs.

Beatrice will probably loose her titles when/if she marries and I don't think Charles would want to alter the letters patent so she could inherit it from Andrew, sadly.

The RF have already 'lost' the Kent and Gloucester Dukedoms, and they will need to be careful with the Edinburgh one once Edward and then James Severen inherits it. That's under the current rules. I assume the Swedish ones revert to the crown once the holder dies, but given that three dukedoms are in effect leaving the crown under male primogeniture, how many more would basically become new ducal families once they loose the right to the style HRH after 3 generations? The letters patent would need to stare its for the bearers lifetime instead. If Scotland does go through with indyref 2 than there'll be one less kingdom for supplying Dukedoms... can't be too careful about these things...

So the suggestion of Charlotte being duchess of Cambridge would help conserve the precious supply of dukedoms but like the poster above, be a nice tribute to William. But its more likely that it will be Princess Royal as its not hereditary and trad the title of the only/first daughter of the monarch.

Iluvbertie 03-25-2017 04:01 AM

I am not talking about only royal dukedoms but all hereditary titles. There are people who regularly put forward suggestions, and actual legislation, to move that to gender blind succession. If that law ever gets past it won't be down to Charles to try to exempt the York dukedom as it would be the law of the land (and would also see Louise inherit her father's titles over James if true gender blind and not just male preference with females able to inherit with no sons come into being).

I never suggested Charles would issue new LPs for Andrew but the Queen. Given the clear dislike between Charles and Andrew it would be inconceivable for Charles to do anything for Andrew and his daughters. If the girls aren't married before Charles becomes King I don't even seeing them marrying in a royal chapel as I doubt Charles would give his consent for even a St Georges wedding for either of them and I suspect he wouldn't attend anyway given his own clear hatred of Sarah.

If Charles is serious about reducing the size of the royal family then he can't strip Beatrice and Eugenie of their styles and then turn around and approve titles and styles for Harry's kids (he probably would but it would show him in a very bad light as one whose dislike of a younger brother is determining policy rather than fairness).

sndral 03-25-2017 09:23 PM

Queen Elizabeth II waited until 22 years after Princess Mary's death to grant the title of Princess Royal to Anne. Princess Anne was 37 when she became Princess Royal. I've wondered why the Queen waited so long to give the title to Anne. One theory I have is that she was waiting to see if Charles had a daughter and if he did to keep the title open for him to give to his daughter.
Anne is currently in her late 60s and will presumably live another 30+ years. Assuming William outlives both his father and his Aunt then I would predict that as King, William would bestow the title of Princess Royal on Charlotte, his eldest daughter, most likely when she is in her late 30s.
However, if Charlotte's not interested in Royal duties and George has a daughter of his own by then, it's possible they might skip a generation to leave the title open for George's eldest daughter (assuming she has an elder brother and is not destined to become Queen.)

WreathOfLaurels 03-25-2017 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1970899)
I am not talking about only royal dukedoms but all hereditary titles. There are people who regularly put forward suggestions, and actual legislation, to move that to gender blind succession. If that law ever gets past it won't be down to Charles to try to exempt the York dukedom as it would be the law of the land (and would also see Louise inherit her father's titles over James if true gender blind and not just male preference with females able to inherit with no sons come into being).

I never suggested Charles would issue new LPs for Andrew but the Queen. Given the clear dislike between Charles and Andrew it would be inconceivable for Charles to do anything for Andrew and his daughters. If the girls aren't married before Charles becomes King I don't even seeing them marrying in a royal chapel as I doubt Charles would give his consent for even a St Georges wedding for either of them and I suspect he wouldn't attend anyway given his own clear hatred of Sarah.

If Charles is serious about reducing the size of the royal family then he can't strip Beatrice and Eugenie of their styles and then turn around and approve titles and styles for Harry's kids (he probably would but it would show him in a very bad light as one whose dislike of a younger brother is determining policy rather than fairness).

I was working from the assumption that any possible law changes would not be retroactive, so it would only apply to inheritances after the law was changed. I should have been more clear about that Iluvbertie, my apologies.

Biri 03-25-2017 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels (Post 1970897)
Beatrice will probably loose her titles when/if she marries and I don't think Charles would want to alter the letters patent so she could inherit it from Andrew, sadly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels (Post 1970897)
If he wants to resign from the title "Defender of the Faith" so why he couldn't try to change the letters' patent?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels (Post 1970897)
The RF have already 'lost' the Kent and Gloucester Dukedoms, and they will need to be careful with the Edinburgh one once Edward and then James Severen inherits it.

In what sense they "lost"? Everyone of the Dukes has a son:
George will inherit the title of the Duke of Kent and his only son Edward will become the Earl of St. Andrews.
Alexander will inherit the title of the Duke of Gloucester and his only son, also Alexander, will become the Earl of Ulster.

Osipi 03-25-2017 11:41 PM

If I'm not mistaken, when the titles of Duke of Kent and Duke of Gloucester are passed on, they will cease to be royal dukedoms but remain a peerage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Ish 03-25-2017 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biri (Post 1971101)
Beatrice will probably loose her titles when/if she marries and I don't think Charles would want to alter the letters patent so she could inherit it from Andrew, sadly.

Beatrice will not "lose" her title, she'll simply drop her territorial designation.

She'll go from being HRH Princess Beatrice of York to HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs. John Doe.

For reference, look at what happened to Princess Alexandra.

Even Anne, Margaret, the Queen, Mary (daughter of George V), Louise (daughter of Edward VII), and Louise (daughter of Victoria), went through similar title changes when they married.


Quote:

In what sense they "lost"? Everyone of the Dukes has a son:
George will inherit the title of the Duke of Kent and his only son Edward will become the Earl of St. Andrews.
Alexander will inherit the title of the Duke of Gloucester and his only son, also Alexander, will become the Earl of Ulster.

They've been "lost" in the sense that when the current Dukes die, the titles will cease to be royal.

Curryong 03-26-2017 12:00 AM

And that is very sad in a way, as the Dukedom of Gloucester has been used within the BRF (albeit on successive creations) since medieval times.

WreathOfLaurels 03-26-2017 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biri (Post 1971101)
In what sense they "lost"? Everyone of the Dukes has a son:
George will inherit the title of the Duke of Kent and his only son Edward will become the Earl of St. Andrews.
Alexander will inherit the title of the Duke of Gloucester and his only son, also Alexander, will become the Earl of Ulster.

The Earls of Ulster and St Andrews won't be HRH's like their fathers, they will be Their Grace's and will be peers not members of the royal house. It also means that those particular set of titles can't be given to the next generation of royal children as unlike those granted to the eldest son/daughter of the monarch, they do not revert to the crown until the last lineal heirs die i.e no heirs male or female, so thing that will be even more likely with absolute primogeniture. This means that every generation (barring the possibility that Prince George has only one child) will mean new ducal families, and less usable titles, as you can't use titles that are already held by other families. Whether this is a bad thing or not is hard to say. The remaining dukedoms I can think of are Sussex and Clarence. Sussex is being earmarked for Harry AFAIK. Cumberland and Albany both technically belong to the Hannover and Coburg families (cf the 1917 titles depravation act) and thus are also excluded from the possible list of royal dukedoms. It's possible that the tradition of royal dukes could be dispensed with as part of slimming down the monarchy but given that those models of royal efficiency the Swedes still use them I don't see that happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curryong (Post 1971104)
And that is very sad in a way, as the Dukedom of Gloucester has been used within the BRF (albeit on successive creations) since medieval times.

Same for the York dukedom. It was even a dynasty in its own right at one time - the Yorkists in the Wars of the Roses. After that it always reverted to the crown as either its bearer became king (Edward IV, Henry VIII, Charles I, James II, George V, George VI) or died without children (Richard son of Edward IV - one of the princes of the tower, Prince Ernest Augustus of Hannover, prince-bishop of Onasbruck - brother of George I, Prince Edward, son of Frederick Prince of Wales, Prince Frederick son of George III, and Henry Benedict Stuart [Jacobite] Cardinal- Duke of York come to think of it). Andrew is the first case where it is due to not having a son.

HRHFitz 05-24-2018 07:03 PM

I agree, they really should allow gender blind inheritance of title, but I think in the interest of decreasing titles for peripheral members of the RF they should make it so it would be in affect for the children of The Duke of Cambridge and The Duke of Sussex. It is too messy to try and do it retroactively.

I would love to see them have females be Duchesses in their own right (a la the Swedish Royal Family) but I think that Louis should become the Duke of Cambridge and Charlotte should become the Princess Royal.

If Harry's first born is a girl I think she should be the first to inherit her father's title.

Mbruno 05-24-2018 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westfield Bakery (Post 1970857)
William, Duke of Cambridge's daughter, Charlotte, will be a very important Royal when her father becomes King William V. Will the Princess of Cambridge receive the title of Princess Royal, as her great-aunt, Princess Anne, Princess Royal?

As the eldest daughter of the King, she probably will, but not as long as Anne is alive as there can only be one Princess Royal at a time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRHFitz (Post 2115209)
I agree, they really should allow gender blind inheritance of title, but I think in the interest of decreasing titles for peripheral members of the RF they should make it so it would be in affect for the children of The Duke of Cambridge and The Duke of Sussex. It is too messy to try and do it retroactively.

I would love to see them have females be Duchesses in their own right (a la the Swedish Royal Family) but I think that Louis should become the Duke of Cambridge and Charlotte should become the Princess Royal.

If Harry's first born is a girl I think she should be the first to inherit her father's title.

.

The Swedish duchies are different because they are not hereditary.. The titles of nobility of the Spanish Royal House like Duchess of Lugo , Duchess of Palma de Mallorca, Duchess of Badajoz, or Duchess of SorŪa arenít hereditary either. I donít see the reason why hereditary peerages should be created for princes of the UK and then linger for generations outside the Royal Family properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi (Post 1971102)
If I'm not mistaken, when the titles of Duke of Kent and Duke of Gloucester are passed on, they will cease to be royal dukedoms but remain a peerage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

You are right. The Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St Andrews will be His Grace The Duke of Gloucester and His Grace The Duke of Kent,. The titles will leave the Royal Family and go on until they become extinct, which was my point exactly.


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