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-   -   Future Titles of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane's Spouses (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f48/future-titles-of-princess-alexia-and-princess-arianes-spouses-40929.html)

Koningin 07-10-2016 10:54 AM

Future Titles of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane's Spouses
 
Hi everyone :)

What do You think: Alexia's and Ariane's husbands will receive royal title ?
We know, Amalia's husband will be Prince of the Netherlands.

sjetajiem 07-10-2016 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koningin (Post 1907915)
Hi everyone :)

What do You think: Alexia's and Ariane's husbands will receive royal title ?
We know, Amalia's husband will be Prince of the Netherlands.

No they will absolutely not be Princes of the Netherlands
They will not even get a title
They will simply be prins, if they are born prince, or noble titled simply because they are born noble
Most probably if the younger princesses marry, they will marry a commoner

Koningin 07-10-2016 11:12 AM

And Alexia's and Ariane's kids will be Count/Countess ?

Maybe Prince Gabriel will be Amalia's husband ? ;)

Lee-Z 07-10-2016 11:18 AM

Although ofcourse lots can change in the future imo it's safest to assume that P.Alexia and Ariane's situation will be similar to currently P.Constantijn as sibling of a monarch:
- their spouse will not become royalty but can use a courtesy title (if spouse is royal by birth ofcourse that won't change)
- children will not become princes or princesses but counts and countesses

sjetajiem 07-10-2016 12:02 PM

Not quite
Princess Laurentien uses the courtesy title of her husband
I doubt that the future husbands of the princesses can use the courtesy title of their wives

Lee-Z 07-10-2016 12:30 PM

you're right, if even mr. Pieter van Vollenhove didn't get a courtesy title than no male spouse will (other than, for now, the male spouse of a queen regnant).
Knowing the dutch passion for gender equality, it's quite possible that it will even be eliminated for female spouses and the current batch of courtesy princesses are the last ones in dutch history

The future will tell..

carlota 07-10-2016 12:52 PM

since laurentien and mabel are addressed as princesses, my guess is that they will get a title. however, neither carlos hugo (husband of irene), pieter (husband of magriet), jorge (husband of cristina) received titles.

the children of magriet and pieter, on the other hand, did receive prince(ss) titles and magriet never resigned her rights to the throne (as her marriage was approved, unlike those of christina or irene) so i would say that both the kids of alexia and ariane will be HH Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau, and even so will their spouses - as it happened for marilene, annette, aimee and anita. the dutch throne seems to favour females getting titles, as opposed to men, i get the impression.

incidentally, has anyone else noticed how most monarchs in the dutch family always seems to have children of the same gender, and they seem to change genders each generation? how curious. it doesn't make our job of predicting based on past facts easy!

juliana only had girls
beatrix only had boys
WA only had girls
(wilhemina only had one daughter, so i guess she doesn't count. magriet also had only boys)

Duc_et_Pair 07-10-2016 01:23 PM

The titles for the children of Princess Margriet were an unique event and will not be repeated. Queen Juliana had to overcome scepsism in her own family, in the Cabinet and even ignore a critical advice of the High Council of Nobility. Much heard was that the Queen did not want A-princes and B-princes but that was an attempt in vain.

In the 1960's the membership of the Royal House still was extended to those with a consanguinity not further than three degrees of the Sovereign. With the Royal House Act 2002 this consanguinity has been limited to two degrees. This means that the children of Prince Constantijn are still successors but are NO members of the Royal House.

The Explanatory Memorandum attached to this Act says that the titles "Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau" represent a close bond to the bearer of the Crown. This "close bond" is the maximal consanguinity of two degrees to a Sovereign.

This means that the children of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane will only belong to the Royal House as long as their grandfather is King. When their aunt is Queen Catharina-Amalia, they cease to be members of the Royal House. This means an end to what the Act sees as "a close bond to the Sovereign". It is most unlikely that they will become Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau. Remember: such a title is for life, they would still be a Royal Highness and a Prince or Princess when they are 95 years old. Not exactly what the lawmakers had in their mind back then in 2002.

When Princess Alexia or Princess Ariane marry a titled person, their children will receive their father's titles anyway. They are Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg but in the Dutch nobility system titles are only hereditary via the paternal lineage. It would require a new Royal Decree to bestow their children a title, if the King pleases so. When Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane marry a Baron or a Count, then the whole question will not even pop up, I think. Alexia marries a Baron de Villefagne de Vogelsanck? Her children automatically will be a Baron or Baroness too.

Countessmeout 07-10-2016 02:22 PM

I don't see why people assume what was done for Bea's sisters will be done for CA's. They changed succession to absolute primogeniture, why do we assume everything will be done as it was in the past???

Look at Sweden. In the past a daughter lost her title if she married a commoner, and accordingly a husband never took a title. Now Daniel holds his wife's as would Chris if he hadn't refused Swedish citizenship. In Belgium we have Princess Astrid whose husband is a Prince of Belgium. In Spain we have the infantas whose husbands were allowed to use their Duchy titles.

I honestly would be shocked if their husband's were not at the very least, Prince X, Prince of Orange-Nassau.

Hendrik-Jan77 07-10-2016 04:14 PM

Alexia's and Ariane's husbands will be Prince of the Netherlands ?
 
If Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane marry commoners, I think the same will happen as with Princess Christina; their husbands won't receive a title nor will their children.
Unlike what has happened with the children of Prince Friso and Prince Constantijn.
A situation like that of Princess Madeleine of Sweden where she married a commoner but her children received a title, won't happen in the Netherlands either nowadays.
That would not go down well with the Dutch politicians and public. I still remember the commotion when Maxima became Queen. The Netherlands have a monarchy but most of the Dutch people are republicans at heart.
The public support for giving titles will only decrease in the future I think and maybe this is only preferabele for these children in order to shape their life in a way they want without the hindrance of a title.
The children of Amalia's sisters will only have a title if their father is of nobility or will receive a title by permission of the government if Amalia stays childless.

Countessmeout 07-10-2016 08:12 PM

How is a title a hinderance? Or any cost or concern to the people. Friso and Constantijn both live/lived private lives. They both had jobs and both supported their families. The people didn't think Max should be queen because it was unequal. Bea's husband wasn't king, so why should WA's wife be queen. That speaks volumes about how egalitarian the public is. Why would they want their princesses treated as second class royals? Just as Countess Luana and the others will never have money and a roll in the RF, neither will Amalia's nieces and nephews. No need to continue the archaic tradition of booting women out when they marry, and not treating their husband and kids as family.

If Alexia married and had a daughter say Beatrix. Beatrix X would have the same freedom and cost the Dutch people as much money as Countess Beatrix X or even Princess Beatrix X. At the very least I think the kids will be treated the same as WA's nieces and nephews.

duke of poliganc 07-10-2016 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countessmeout (Post 1907977)
I don't see why people assume what was done for Bea's sisters will be done for CA's. They changed succession to absolute primogeniture, why do we assume everything will be done as it was in the past???

Look at Sweden. In the past a daughter lost her title if she married a commoner, and accordingly a husband never took a title. Now Daniel holds his wife's as would Chris if he hadn't refused Swedish citizenship. In Belgium we have Princess Astrid whose husband is a Prince of Belgium. In Spain we have the infantas whose husbands were allowed to use their Duchy titles.

I honestly would be shocked if their husband's were not at the very least, Prince X, Prince of Orange-Nassau.

i couldn't agree more :flowers:

duke of poliganc 07-10-2016 08:33 PM

a out of wedlock son can inherit the nobility title from his father in netherland but the grandkids of the monarch will be commoners just because the title will be from their mothers not their fathers ?! i don't think so .

CyrilVladisla 07-10-2016 10:02 PM

If Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane each marry a Royal Prince, then the children would bear the title of Prince or Princess?

miss whirley 07-10-2016 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee-Z (Post 1907926)
Although ofcourse lots can change in the future imo it's safest to assume that P.Alexia and Ariane's situation will be similar to currently P.Constantijn as sibling of a monarch:
- their spouse will not become royalty but can use a courtesy title (if spouse is royal by birth ofcourse that won't change)
- children will not become princes or princesses but counts and countesses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee-Z (Post 1907940)
you're right, if even mr. Pieter van Vollenhove didn't get a courtesy title than no male spouse will (other than, for now, the male spouse of a queen regnant).
Knowing the dutch passion for gender equality, it's quite possible that it will even be eliminated for female spouses and the current batch of courtesy princesses are the last ones in dutch history

The future will tell..

Thank you for staying gender neutral. I cringed at the assumption that Alexia and Ariane would have 'husbands'.

I agree with your take on their future husbands/wives titles, too. :flowers:

Koningin 07-11-2016 02:00 AM

I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel :) And who know, maybe Alexia will marry prince Christian ? ;)

sjetajiem 07-11-2016 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koningin (Post 1908160)
I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel :) And who know, maybe Alexia will marry prince Christian ? ;)

Don't count on that
Today princes and princesses marry out of love and they mostly fall in love with commoners:flowers:

Duc_et_Pair 07-11-2016 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countessmeout (Post 1908094)
How is a title a hinderance? Or any cost or concern to the people. Friso and Constantijn both live/lived private lives. They both had jobs and both supported their families. The people didn't think Max should be queen because it was unequal. Bea's husband wasn't king, so why should WA's wife be queen. That speaks volumes about how egalitarian the public is. Why would they want their princesses treated as second class royals? Just as Countess Luana and the others will never have money and a roll in the RF, neither will Amalia's nieces and nephews. No need to continue the archaic tradition of booting women out when they marry, and not treating their husband and kids as family.

If Alexia married and had a daughter say Beatrix. Beatrix X would have the same freedom and cost the Dutch people as much money as Countess Beatrix X or even Princess Beatrix X. At the very least I think the kids will be treated the same as WA's nieces and nephews.

The Royal House Act 2002 was perfectly gender neutral:

The monarch = De Koning / De Koningin
The consort = prins (prinses) der Nederlanden

The Heir = De Prins (Prinses) van Oranje
The consort = prins (prinses) der Nederlanden

The children of the monarch or the Heir = prins (prinses) der Nederlanden

Unlike all consorts to a Prince of Orange before her, Máxima never became Prinses van Oranje because that title was made gender neutral and attached to the person of the Heir exclusively.

The same happened to the title of the consort to the monarch. That became gender neutral too: no matter a male or a female, he/she will be prins (prinses) der Nederlanden.

What happened in 2013? The Government and the Parliament, faced with their very own Act, started to walk on two wobbly ropes. At the one side they wanted to respect the law which says that Máxima is prinses der Nederlanden, like Claus, like Bernhard, like Hendrik. At the other side they found it "undesirable" that Máxima was treated differently from other female spouses to Kings. So a typical -ugly- Dutch solution was found, a mix of the formal title (prinses der Nederlanden) with the informal form of address for a female spouse of a King (koningin Máxima):

It is not:
H.M. koningin Máxima der Nederlanden
But it is:
H.M. koningin Máxima, prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, mevrouw Van Amsberg

:ermm::ohmy::eek:

Koningin 07-11-2016 03:56 AM

And if king Willem Alexander abdicate he and Máxima return to prince and princess of the Netherlands ?

An Ard Ri 07-11-2016 05:22 AM

Yes that has been the case for the 3 previous Dutch Monarchs who abdicated and resumed the title of princess.


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