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-   -   Titles of the Belgian Royal Family (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975.html)

Marchesina 05-18-2014 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1666094)
The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.


Since Prince Amedeo is getting married this summer, we will see if King Philippe will release a new decree to change things (this should be the case). As you said in ... let's say 15 years ... there may be 30 or even more Princes of Belgium. I read somewhere that King George V reformed the princely title system because of numerous Princes of the United Kingdom existing all around Europe

Duc_et_Pair 05-18-2014 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1666097)
and the oldest Archduchess Andreas married Hereditary Count Karl Eugen of Neipperg, who will once day succed his fathhr succeed as head of this mediatized House.

Oops, how could I forget Archduchess Andrea, yes you are totally right!

Duc_et_Pair 05-18-2014 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchesina (Post 1666100)
Since Prince Amedeo is getting married this summer, we will see if King Philippe will release a new decree to change things (this should be the case). As you said in ... let's say 15 years ... there may be 30 or even more Princes of Belgium. I read somewhere that King George V reformed the princely title system because of numerous Princes of the United Kingdom existing all around Europe

In 2002 in the Netherlands the Royal House Act has been modernized. The thought of the lawmaker: the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau must express a close bond to the Bearer of the Crown. Since 2002 only the children of a King and of a Heir will get these titles. Special provisions are made in the Act for special cases, like the spouse of the King or the Heir.

Result: only the daughters of Willem-Alexander are Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau. The children of his brothers Friso and Constantijn do not have these titles.

The Belgians can follow this example: the title Prince(ss) of Belgium is only for children of a King or a Heir. This means that the children of the younger Princes can have another title, like in the Dutch example.

Tatiana Maria 05-18-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camberwell (Post 1665971)
If, for instance, Princess Maria Laura of Belgium grew up and married a commoner, would he get any title from his marriage to her?

I'd be very grateful for anyone who would be kind enough to help me!

Thank you very much.

Strictly speaking, he will not, and neither will the fiancée of her brother Prince Amedeo. By the royal decree of December 2, 1991 (effective December 15, 1991), spouses of Belgian princes(ses) do not bear titles by marriage.

Even so, King Albert II created the spouses of Prince Philippe, Princess Astrid, and Prince Laurent Princes(ses) of Belgium in their own right. It remains to be seen whether King Philippe shall do likewise for Prince Amedeo's fiancée and the future spouses of his siblings.

In the event that Princess Maria Laura chooses to call herself Mrs. XY after marriage, it is unlikely to be appended to her formal title. No other princess of Belgium (by blood) is formally styled in Belgium with her husband's surname or title.

crm2317 05-18-2014 02:57 PM

So if King Phillipe decides not to grant Amadeo's wife a Belgian title she will be Archduchess Amadeo of Austria-Este with no Belgium title?

maria-olivia 05-19-2014 06:35 AM

Yes. Prince Lorenz has also various tittles , such as Duc de Bar.

Mbruno 12-11-2014 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1666094)
The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.


Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.

Meraude 05-02-2015 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1729069)
Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.

As far as I understand the situation in Sweden, it's the monarch who decides what title, if any, a member of the royal family is to have. By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles. Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.

Avicenna 05-02-2015 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774497)
By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles.

-->> And maybe they will be happy to be less visible, out of the limelight. Depends on their upbringing of course, but in Madeleines case I can see this clearly happening.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774497)
.... Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.

-->> Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.

JR76 05-02-2015 07:37 AM

If a Belgian princess married an ordinary man…
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1729069)
Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774497)
As far as I understand the situation in Sweden, it's the monarch who decides what title, if any, a member of the royal family is to have. By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles. Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Avicenna (Post 1774510)
-->> And maybe they will be happy to be less visible, out of the limelight. Depends on their upbringing of course, but in Madeleines case I can see this clearly happening.




-->> Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.


How should I put this without having the post deleted... I'm absolutely sure that if Victoria and Daniel had one or two more children Madeleines children wouldn't have any royal titles.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Stefan 05-02-2015 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 1774521)
How should I put this without having the post deleted... I'm absolutely sure that if Victoria and Daniel had one or two more children Madeleines children wouldn't have any royal titles.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

But Victoria and Daniel can still have more children.

Meraude 05-02-2015 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avicenna (Post 1774510)
Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.

I meant that the monarch decides about titles within the royal family, even if the princes lost their right in the Swedish succession and their royal titles, Gustav V could have done as his father Oscar II did in 1888 when Gustav V:s younger brother married a commoner, and give the non-hereditary title of prince Bernadotte to his grandsons and given the title princess Bernadotte to their wives.

Mbruno 05-02-2015 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774536)
I meant that the monarch decides about titles within the royal family, even if the princes lost their right in the Swedish succession and their royal titles, Gustav V could have done as his father Oscar II did in 1888 when Gustav V:s younger brother married a commoner, and give the non-hereditary title of prince Bernadotte to his grandsons and given the title princess Bernadotte to their wives.


Regardless of their titles (or lack thereof), all descendants of King Carl Gustaf will be in line to the throne under Swedish law, no matter how far their generation is from the current king.

MAfan 05-02-2015 08:34 AM

:previous:
IIRC in order to be in the line of succession they also have to be Lutheran and raised in Sweden. These two conditions can easily help to limit those able to succeed to the Throne in the future.

Stefan 05-02-2015 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 1774566)
:previous:
IIRC in order to be in the line of succession they also have to be Lutheran and raised in Sweden. These two conditions can easily help to limit those able to succeed to the Throne in the future.

And they need permisoj from the King and goverment fior their marriages.

Duc_et_Pair 07-28-2015 01:04 PM

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family
 
The newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws mentions that according Mario Danneels, an insider in royal news, Prince Amedeo indeed did not ask for royal permission to marry Donna Elisabetta.

Without royal permission also no Royal Decree (approval from the Government) as required according Article 85 of the Belgian Constitution. Donna Elisabetta can be called Princess of Belgium by the way, as that is her husband's title.

Children of Prince Amedeo will be Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria and Prince (Princess) of Hungary. Because Prince Amedeo did not ask for permission, he is no longer in the line of succession for the Belgian throne, nor will be his children.

Source: Prins Amedeo niet meer troongerechtigd - HLN.be

Moonmaiden23 07-28-2015 02:00 PM

Amedeo seems such an upright guy. Even though it's a formality getting permission to marry his girlfriend would have been a very simple thing to do and there is no doubt permission would have been given. Lili is a well-educated Catholic with an impeccable pedigree and controversy-free background.

So unless I've misjudged him and he's a secret rebel/Republican something, why did he not go through the formality of seeking permission to wed?

Duc_et_Pair 07-28-2015 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1805352)
Amedeo seems such an upright guy. Even though it's a formality getting permission to marry his girlfriend would have been a very simple thing to do and there is no doubt permission would have been given. Lili is a well-educated Catholic with an impeccable pedigree and controversy-free background.

So unless I've misjudged him and he's a secret rebel/Republican something, why did he not go through the formality of seeking permission to wed?

Most likely Prince Amedeo was requested not to seek permission, to limit the exploding number of Princes and Princesses of Belgium. Initially his father and his offspring were no Prince(ss) of Belgium anyway.

Marengo 07-28-2015 02:29 PM

:previous:

I believe that that was established by posters on this forum and elsewhere some months ago. So Danneels or HLN certainly do not have the scoop.

To Moonmaiden:

Perhaps his uncle asked him not to. Something simular happened with the younger sons of Margriet. They were asked not to ask for permission as the succession was safely established. The two elder van Vollenhovens did ask for permission as all 3 sons of Beatrix were not married and theoretically they might all have lost their succession rights one way or the other.

In Belgium the king has 4 children. It is unlikely thatthey will be removed from the succession line in some way. But if that is the case I suppose the throne would go to Maria-Laura eventually.

It will be interesting to see what will happen to Laurent's sons. I doubt they will ask for permission. But unlike Amedeo they do not have another last name or title.

BTW did Lorenz title get incorperated in the Belgian nobility, as was the case for AD Rudolph who legally is Prince von Habsburg in Belgium?

I suppose that we still do not know what Elisabetta will be called. Archduchess E. or Princess Amedeo perhaps? Quite odd that the Belgian court is not clear about it.

Moonmaiden23 07-28-2015 04:43 PM

Thanks Duc and Marengo...I always learn so much from the two of you;)!


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