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Tatiana Maria 08-30-2016 01:52 PM

The Royal Decree of 2015, as distinct from the Royal Decree of December 2, 1991, allows all of the Princes(ses) of Belgium, the children and future grandchildren of King Philippe along with the children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent, to use a family name and/or extra family titles.

1991

"Article 1. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et Princesses issus de la descendance en ligne directe de S.A.R. le Prince Albert, Félix, Humbert, Théodore, Christian, Eugène, Marie, Prince de Liège, Prince de Belgique, seront qualifiés Princes ou Princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms."

2015 (Children and grandchildren of King Philippe)

"Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale."

2015 (Children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent)

"Art. 2. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale."

Mbruno 08-30-2016 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 1920483)
The Royal Decree of 2015, as distinct from the Royal Decree of December 2, 1991, allows all of the Princes(ses) of Belgium, the children and future grandchildren of King Philippe along with the children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent, to use a family name and/or extra family titles.

Yes, but only provided that they use a family name. My point exactly was that King Philippe's children do not use any family name.

maria-olivia 08-30-2016 04:02 PM

On their identity card it is written de Belgique .
At school they are Elisabeth , Gabriel , Emmanuel , Eleonore van Belgie

Tatiana Maria 08-30-2016 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1920486)
Yes, but only provided that they use a family name. My point exactly was that King Philippe's children do not use any family name.

I am not sure if King Philippe's children use a family name in their identity documents, as I have not seen any transcriptions, but Antoine Clevers wrote that a surname would be required from January 1, 2016.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1920510)
On their identity card it is written de Belgique .
At school they are Elisabeth , Gabriel , Emmanuel , Eleonore van Belgie

Is it written "Elisabeth, Princesse de Belgique", "Princesse Elisabeth de Belgique", or only "Elisabeth de Belgique"?

maria-olivia 08-30-2016 06:37 PM

Her Identity card is Elisabeth de Belgique/van Belgie.
At School they are normal students no Prince/Princess etc..

Mbruno 12-20-2016 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1920562)
Her Identity card is Elisabeth de Belgique/van Belgie.
At School they are normal students no Prince/Princess etc..

Someone mentioned in another thread a long time ago that, in his "Acte de Mariage", Philippe signed his name as "Philippe de Belgique" whereas (then) prince Henri, who served as a witness, signed as "Henri de Luxembourg". In the preamble to the marriage act, the prince himself was referred as:

"Son Altesse Royale le Prince Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Duc de Brabant, Prince de Belgique, Sénateur, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold, titulaire de diverses distinctions honorifiques étrangères ."

King Albert II, on the order hand, was referred to as:

"Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II Félix Humbert Théodore Christian Eugène Marie, Roi des Belges, Prince de Belgique, Grand Maître de l'Ordre de Léopold, titulaire de diverses distinctions honorifiques étrangères"

The most interesting reference though was to the Queen Paola who, like Queen Máxima, was not referred to as "Queen of the Belgians", but rather "HM Queen Paola [etc.], Princess of Belgium". More specifically, the text in French was:

"Sa Majesté la Reine Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia des Princes Ruffo di Calabria, Princesse de Belgique, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold"

In any case, my understanding though is that "de Belgique" is not a family name, bur rather a title.

Marchesina 12-20-2016 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1948462)
Someone mentioned in another thread a long time ago that, in his "Acte de Mariage", Philippe signed his name as "Philippe de Belgique" whereas (then) prince Henri, who served as a witness, signed as "Henri de Luxembourg". In the preamble to the marriage act, the prince himself was referred as:

"Son Altesse Royale le Prince Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Duc de Brabant, Prince de Belgique, Sénateur, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold, titulaire de diverses distinctions honorifiques étrangères ."

King Albert II, on the order hand, was referred to as:

"Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II Félix Humbert Théodore Christian Eugène Marie, Roi des Belges, Prince de Belgique, Grand Maître de l'Ordre de Léopold, titulaire de diverses distinctions honorifiques étrangères"

The most interesting reference though was to the Queen Paola who, like Queen Máxima, was not referred to as "Queen of the Belgians", but rather "HM Queen Paola [etc.], Princess of Belgium". More specifically, the text in French was:

"Sa Majesté la Reine Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia des Princes Ruffo di Calabria, Princesse de Belgique, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold"

In any case, my understanding though is that "de Belgique" is not a family name, bur rather a title.

"de Belgique/van Belgie" is indeed a title, but at the same time it has become a family name over the years. The family name of the Belgian Royal Family is "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha", but just like their British cousins, they decided to cut any possible German connection after the First World War.
As for Queen Paola's titles, I think the distinction was made as she's Queen by marriage, sharing her husband's title, while the Princess title is something that she acquired on her own right (same as Mathilde and Claire, who were made Princesses of Belgium prior to their wedding).

Tatiana Maria 12-20-2016 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1948462)
In any case, my understanding though is that "de Belgique" is not a family name, bur rather a title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchesina (Post 1948561)
"de Belgique/van Belgie" is indeed a title, but at the same time it has become a family name over the years. The family name of the Belgian Royal Family is "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha", but just like their British cousins, they decided to cut any possible German connection after the First World War.


King Philippe apparently thinks that the real family name is "of Saxe-Coburg" and on that account the descendants of the royal family who will not be Princes(ses) of Belgium should not use the last name "of Belgium". But the legal specialists whom Le Soir consulted disagreed with the King's analysis.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post1920463

The report that accompanied the draft of the Royal Decree of March 14, 1891, which conferred the title "Prince(ss) of Belgium" on the princes and princesses of the royal family, reads that "in other countries, they call our princes and princesses by the name of Belgium" and that the Royal Decree "confers this name on them".

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique

In March, the history of the Houses of Wettin and Saxe-Coburg was added to the official website. It states that the Belgian royal family is a branch of the House of Wettin.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-fam...of-the-dynasty

Mbruno 12-21-2016 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchesina (Post 1948561)
"de Belgique/van Belgie" is indeed a title, but at the same time it has become a family name over the years. The family name of the Belgian Royal Family is "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha", but just like their British cousins, they decided to cut any possible German connection after the First World War.
As for Queen Paola's titles, I think the distinction was made as she's Queen by marriage, sharing her husband's title, while the Princess title is something that she acquired on her own right (same as Mathilde and Claire, who were made Princesses of Belgium prior to their wedding).

That is indeed the case. Prior to 1991, all legitimate agnatic descendants of King Leopold I were princes of Belgium and their respective wives automatically became princesses of Belgium. Thus, Paola became a princess of Belgium upon marrying Albert and holds that title for life. Mathilde's and Claire's situation is slightly different as, since King Baudouin's 1991 royal decree, wives of princes of Belgium no longer automatically get the title of Princess of Belgium upon marriage. Mathilde and Claire were made princesses of Belgium in their own right though by separate royal decrees issued by King ALbert II.

Going back to my previous post, what surprised me is that the consort of the King of the Belgians is often called the Queen of the Belgians, including in official invitations from other royal courts. Philippe's marriage Act seems to imply though that this is actually legally incorrect.

Marchesina 12-22-2016 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 1948607)
King Philippe apparently thinks that the real family name is "of Saxe-Coburg" and on that account the descendants of the royal family who will not be Princes(ses) of Belgium should not use the last name "of Belgium". But the legal specialists whom Le Soir consulted disagreed with the King's analysis.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post1920463

The report that accompanied the draft of the Royal Decree of March 14, 1891, which conferred the title "Prince(ss) of Belgium" on the princes and princesses of the royal family, reads that "in other countries, they call our princes and princesses by the name of Belgium" and that the Royal Decree "confers this name on them".

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique

In March, the history of the Houses of Wettin and Saxe-Coburg was added to the official website. It states that the Belgian royal family is a branch of the House of Wettin.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-fam...of-the-dynasty

I think it is only fair from Philippe's part not to want an endless line of princes of Belgium and to keep conferring the title only to the King's grandchildren (the way it was during Albert's reign). We'll see in the future what will happen when Laurent's kids will have their own children, as Astrid kids have the Habsburg name to carry on.

As for the family name and the family history, I think that it is safe to say that no one can deny those origins and nowadays the relations between Belgium and Germany are good enough, and IMO it makes no sense to hide where the family comes from...it's not like they can have any claim one the duchy, anyway.

Tatiana Maria 12-22-2016 08:54 AM

:previous:

I agree. It seems they were not seldom described as the Saxe-Coburgs after the renunciation of 1921, perhaps because, unlike the British cousins, they never changed to a substitute house name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1948929)
Prior to 1991, all legitimate agnatic descendants of King Leopold I were princes of Belgium and their respective wives automatically became princesses of Belgium. Thus, Paola became a princess of Belgium upon marrying Albert and holds that title for life.

Indeed, this was the case from 1891 to 1991. Previous to 1891, the territorial designation "of Belgium" was informal, and the royal princes who did not hold dynastic titles (Duke of Brabant or Count of Flanders), and the unmarried royal princesses, were legally "HRH Princess Clémentine Albertine Marie Léopoldine, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha".

Mbruno 01-11-2017 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchesina (Post 1948561)
"de Belgique/van Belgie" is indeed a title, but at the same time it has become a family name over the years. The family name of the Belgian Royal Family is "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha", but just like their British cousins, they decided to cut any possible German connection after the First World War.
As for Queen Paola's titles, I think the distinction was made as she's Queen by marriage, sharing her husband's title, while the Princess title is something that she acquired on her own right (same as Mathilde and Claire, who were made Princesses of Belgium prior to their wedding).

The issue of titles of Queen consorts is a tricky one. In Spain, for example, the royal decree that regulates the titles of the Royal Family says that the holder of the Crown is called "Rey de España" or "Reina de España", but it explicitly says in the sequel that the title of the wife of the "Rey de España" is simply "Reina". Therefore, it is clear that Letizia for example is entitled to be called Queen, but cannot be legally called Queen of Spain.

By contrast, in Sweden, where there is no explicit legal regulation of royal titles, we have to go by the official list of names and titles of members of the Royal House that is published by the Royal Court. On that list, Queen Silvia's title is listed after her name as "Sveriges drottning", which has always been the title that wives of the Bernadotte kings of Sweden have held. So, at least de facto if not de jure, Queen Silvia may be called Queen of Sweden.

In Belgium, on the other hand,both Paola and Mathilde are legally entitled to the title of Princess of Belgium, respectively under the royal decrees of 1891 ( as amended in 1991 and 2015) and of 1998. However, there is no royal decree or any other provision allowing them to use the title "Reine des Belges" and, based on a principle of law, if the title has never been given to them, then they don't hold it. The confusion seems to arise though from the fact that, in the past, former consorts of Kings of the Belgians were called Queen of the Belgians in public documents, e.g. Louise d'Orleáns on her children's birth certificates.

Going back to Anna Astrid, Tatiana Maria correctly pointed out that the 2015 royal decree seems to imply a genealogical definitiion of all direct descendants of Leopold I as princes or princesses. Therefore, I suppose it is Ok for Anna Astrid to be called Princess [names] [family name]. However, she cannot be called Princess of Belgium and, moreover, she doesn't have the predicate SAR (i,e HRH) in Belgium, no matter what her titles of pretense in Austria are.

Tatiana Maria 01-13-2017 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1953549)
Going back to Anna Astrid, Tatiana Maria correctly pointed out that the 2015 royal decree seems to imply a genealogical definitiion of all direct descendants of Leopold I as princes or princesses. Therefore, I suppose it is Ok for Anna Astrid to be called Princess [names] [family name]. However, she cannot be called Princess of Belgium and, moreover, she doesn't have the predicate SAR (i,e HRH) in Belgium, no matter what her titles of pretense in Austria are.

While I believe the 2015 royal decree is clear that direct descendants of King Leopold I may be Princes(ses) without the title Prince(ss) of Belgium, which of his descendants is not clear:

"Art. 4. The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold [I] of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to." [Articles 1-3 deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.]

Because the Palace spokesman confirmed that Anna Astrid enjoys the title of Princess but "may assume other titles in due course", and in her birth certificate she was documented as Princess and Archduchess, one can assume the other legitimate children of Astrid's and Laurent's sons will be equally Princes(ses), granted that Astrid's sons' children may decide to be known by the title of Archduchess (Archduke).

It is still unclear whether the children of Astrid's and Laurent's daughters or the children of an unmarried Prince of Belgium will be Princes(ses).


12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal relatif à l'octroi du titre de Prince ou Princesse de Belgique
Princess Anna Astrid: Brussels Prince Amedeo and Elisabetta Welcome Baby
Quel nom pour les princes qui ne seront plus «de Belgique»?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 1891453)
[Gabriel, Emmanuel, and Eléonore's] children will be Prince/ss of Belgium even if the parents marry without permission; the royal decree does not even require that the parents be married.

But inasmuch as it says "the Princes and Princesses, children and grandchildren, […] carry the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium […]", it implies that the titles of Prince of Belgium and Princess of Belgium are passed to Princes and Princesses only.

Countessmeout 01-14-2017 12:48 AM

How would a prince of Belgium not be a prince :ermm:

The law simply states that the title Prince/princess of Belgium is only bestowed on the children or grandchildren of the king or queen. Meaning all grandchildren, male or female. All Alberts grandkids were prince or princess of Belgium. All of Philippes grandchildren will be. But great grandchildren are not entitled.

Anna astrid is a princess. She is a princess inspite of the Belgian decree. In Belgium she is a princess in such that they recognize her title. Like if prince William went to Belgium, they would recognize him as a prince.

Anna has no Belgian title. If her grandfather was a commoner, she would have no title. But Amadeus has titles from both his parents. And unlike his Belgian titles, his Austrian titles are passed on. Yes she is a princess, but not in any way of Belgium or by their decree.

Her title is

Her imperial and royal highness archduchess Anna astrid of Austria-este, princess of Modena.


As for the children's his sisters it doesn't stand to be seen. Unless they marry men with titles, three children will have none. The Austrian titles do not pass in the female line. Anna has it, like the York girls in the Uk because she is a male line granddaughter.


In as such, all Laurent and Claire's grandchildren will not have a title, as they have none to inherit from their mother. I guess their daughter could marry a title so her kids could.

duke of poliganc 01-14-2017 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countessmeout (Post 1954166)
How would a prince of Belgium not be a prince :ermm:

The law simply states that the title Prince/princess of Belgium is only bestowed on the children or grandchildren of the king or queen. Meaning all grandchildren, male or female. All Alberts grandkids were prince or princess of Belgium. All of Philippes grandchildren will be. But great grandchildren are not entitled.

i believe people are here thinking about a situation like in netherland and luxembourg etc . Prince/ss of Orange-Nassau or Prince/ss of Nassau and not prince/ss of netherland or luxembourg .

Duc_et_Pair 01-14-2017 04:13 AM

Yes, Anna is no Princess of Belgium but definitely an Archduchess of Austria-Este and the whole rambam.

Tatiana Maria 01-14-2017 06:49 AM

Countessmeout: Please re-read the royal decree and the articles which I posted. :flowers:

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post1954150


Nowhere is there a statement that descendants who are not Princes(ses) of Belgium (Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren) will have no Belgian royal title.

Articles 1-3 of the decree deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.
Article 4 states: "The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold [I] of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to."

Supposing that King Philippe decided the descendants "not mentioned in articles 1-3" (not Princes(ses) of Belgium) would have no Belgian royal title, why would article 4 be in the decree, and who would be "the Princes and Princesses" in article 4?


Additionally, Belgian media that talked to the Palace after the Royal Decree reported that (some of?) Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren will be Princes(ses) even though they will not be Princes(ses) of Belgium.


If the spokesman who confirmed the title of Princess had been recognizing Anna Astrid's titles of pretense (Princess of Austria, Princess of Hungary, etc.), I don't think he would have added that "she may assume other titles in due course".


Quote:

Her title is
Her imperial and royal highness archduchess Anna astrid of Austria-este, princess of Modena.
The title on her birth certificate is HI&RH Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este.
Quote:

A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d’Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) ».

eya 05-07-2017 10:59 AM

The royal family is again called Saxe-Coburg: why is it soon the end of "Belgium"?

"Change of size for members of the Belgian royal family. They were once again called Saxe-Coburg, their former German title, which they were able to transmit to the descendants, who could no longer be called "de Belgique". Here are the details and explanations of our journalist and cameraman Thibaut Balthazar and Eric Poncelet.

England, Portugal, Bulgaria, Belgium ... The name Saxe-Coburg is rooted in many European royal families. This title, very widespread in the 19th century, was desecrated in the 20th century, victim of history. "The family of Coburg is a German family, and thus during the First World War Germany declares war on Coburgs who are placed on other thrones, such as Georges V in England or Albert I in Belgium, so it is inconceivable to have a German name when fighting against Germany, "explains Patrick Weber, a specialist in the royal family.

In 1921, the one who was nicknamed the King Chevalier decides therefore not to display the name Saxe-Cobourg, with German connotation. He will no longer be associated with his estate until today. Indeed, the discovery of the social book of 2017, all the descendants of King Albert I recovered the title, except the children of the princess, who take the name of their father, the Archduke of Austria-Este. "The very name Saxe-Coburg comes from one side of the Saxony family, a large German family that has spread throughout the empire and then the name of Coburg which is really a younger and collateral branch of the family of Saxony , Which has a direct reference to the territory on which it reigned, that is to say the city of Cobourg "adds Patrick Weber.

Behind this return of the noble title of Saxe-Coburg, hides the political will to limit the use of the title "prince of Belgium". Following a decree, only Princess Elisabeth will be able to pass on the title to her first child, the alternative for the other little children of King Philip and Prince Laurent will be to be called Saxe-Coburg."

La famille royale s'appelle à nouveau Saxe-Cobourg: pourquoi est-ce bientôt la fin des "de Belgique"? - RTL Info

Duc_et_Pair 05-07-2017 11:24 AM

It is a good idea. Children of the King and the Heir are Prince (Princess) of Belgium. Other descendants in the male lineage are Prince (Princess) von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha.

This is similar with the Netherlands (graaf/gravin van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg), Luxembourg (prince/princesse de Nassau) and Denmark (greve/komtesse de Monpezat) for the ones not in the direct line of succession.

By doing so the title prince of Belgium (of the Netherlands, of Luxembourg, of Denmark) correspond with a close connection to the person of the Sovereign. So a good idea indeed.

Tatiana Maria 05-07-2017 06:50 PM

The article is about the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain. Last week Le Soir stated that in the current edition, all of the royal descendants of King Leopold I have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" - exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I (the king who renounced the German titles in 1921).
Their wives and husbands do not carry these titles.
The daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium is styled "Princess Anna Astrid" with no surname or further titles.
Le Carnet Mondain states that this information was presented to them by the royal palace.
Quote:

Behind this return of the noble title of Saxe-Coburg, hides the political will to limit the use of the title "prince of Belgium". Following a decree, only Princess Elisabeth will be able to pass on the title to her first child, the alternative for the other little children of King Philip and Prince Laurent will be to be called Saxe-Coburg.
"Little children" (petits enfants) ought to be translated as "grandchildren", and given that the decree of November 12, 2015 remains untouched, only the grandchildren of Laurent will need the surname of Saxe-Coburg. In the present condition, the Princes and Princesses who are children or grandchildren of King Philippe or Crown Princess Elisabeth will be Princes and Princesses of Belgium (Article 1).
Quote:

Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België volgend op hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam en hun dynastieke titel, en voor de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen. Hun voornaam wordt voorafgegaan door het predicaat Zijne of Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid. Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad


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