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jazmin 12-01-2013 09:05 PM

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family
 
Belgian Titles


Hi!, i wanna know how many tittles exist in Belgium and what are that, i just know about the duque and duchess of Brabant

Ish 12-01-2013 09:28 PM

I would suggest checking out the Wikipedia page on Belgian nobility, which discusses the various titles used in Belgium.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_nobility

jazmin 12-06-2013 11:34 PM

sorry but i cant understand all the titles thing, someone can explain me please?

CyrilVladisla 02-13-2014 07:33 PM

The title of "Duke of Brabant" alludes to the Duchy of Brabant, the main region of the Habsburg Netherlands.
From An Ard Ri's mention of
Duke of Brabant - Wikipedia.
The article mentions "In the modern Kingdom of Belgium the title of 'Duke of Brabant'" was revived as an "honorific title".

An Ard Ri 02-14-2014 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla (Post 1640861)
The title of "Duke of Brabant" alludes to the Duchy of Brabant, the main region of the Habsburg Netherlands.

Duchy of Brabant


Duchy of Brabant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duke of Brabant


Duke of Brabant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

maria-olivia 02-14-2014 08:44 AM

As Prince Albert de Liege's Children were the King Nephews the received no tittle.
When Albert II became King this oldest Son, our Heir was titled Duke de Brabant.

King Leopold III gave to his second son Albert the tittle of Prince de Liege.

King Albert I tittled his second son Charles Comte de Flandres who was still alive when Albert was born.

Perhaps King Philippe will tittle Elisabeth Duchess of Brabant when she is 18 years old and give to his 2 sons tittles when they get married.

An Ard Ri 02-14-2014 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1641001)
Perhaps King Philippe will tittle Elisabeth Duchess of Brabant when she is 18 years old and give to his 2 sons tittles when they get married.

I thought Princess Elisabeth was already Duchess of Brabant since her fathers accession to the throne?

The other titles previously used by the Belgians Royal Family were ; Prince & Princess of Liège , Count & Countess of Hainaut Count & Countess of Flanders,the last were abolished by Albert II.

MAfan 02-14-2014 09:49 AM

Yes, Princess Elisabeth is already the Duchess of Brabant, since King Philippe's accession.
The title of Duke of Brabant is automatically bestowed on the eldest child of the King (or in future Queen) of the Belgians.

Stefan 02-14-2014 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 1641028)
Yes, Princess Elisabeth is already the Duchess of Brabant, since King Philippe's accession.
The title of Duke of Brabant is automatically bestowed on the eldest child of the King (or in future Queen) of the Belgians.

Is will be interesting to see if a future husband of Princess Elisabeth will also be styled as Duke of Brabant like in Sweden where Prince Daniel is also styled Duke of Västergotland. Or if they follow the dutch example where a future husband of Pricness Catharina-Amalia will not ber stlyed as Prince of Orange.

An Ard Ri 02-14-2014 10:06 AM

I wonder also if we'll ever see another Prince & Princess of Liège?

Stefan 02-14-2014 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1641040)
I wonder also if we'll ever see another Prince & Princess of Liège?

Don't think so as King Albert II. abolished all the Titles used by the Royal Family with the exception of Duke/Duchess of Brabant in 2001 short before the birth of Princess Elisabeth. Reason was that they are referring to either cities or Regions in Flanders or the Wallonie.

Marchesina 02-14-2014 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1641037)
Is will be interesting to see if a future husband of Princess Elisabeth will also be styled as Duke of Brabant like in Sweden where Prince Daniel is also styled Duke of Västergotland. Or if they follow the dutch example where a future husband of Pricness Catharina-Amalia will not ber stlyed as Prince of Orange.

I personally like the Swedish model...although I have a feeling they'll follow the Dutch one.
It seems quite unlikely, but it would be nice if Philippe could restore all the titles (as honorific of course) and give them to all his children, the way they do in Sweden. Not just the Prince of Liège but also the Count of Flanders and Count of Hainaut and even some brand new title (there's plently of royal children to represent the whole nation :lol::lol::lol::lol:)

MAfan 02-15-2014 06:48 AM

Well, I'm not sure about how much correct is the paragon with the Dutch model. I mean, the title of Prince of Orange is a personal title of the eldest child of the sovereign of The Netherlands and can't be shared with his/her spouse. This means that the husband of the Princess of Orange doesn't has the title of Prince of Orange, but also that the wife of the Prince of Orange isn't Princess of Orange (the most recent example is Queen Maxima, who - before becoming Queen - was simply HRH Princess Maxima of The Netherlands, while her husband was HRH the Prince of Orange.
Instead the title of Duke of Brabant has always been shared by his wife - i.e. Mathilde was officially titled HRH the Duke of Brabant. Under this point of view, the usage of the title of Duke/Duchess of Brabant is more similar to the usage of the Swedish titles.
But to know exactly what will happen we just have to wait for the marriage of Princess Elisabeth.

Camberwell 05-17-2014 08:55 PM

Belgian Titles
 
If, for instance, Princess Maria Laura of Belgium grew up and married a commoner, would he get any title from his marriage to her?

I'd be very grateful for anyone who would be kind enough to help me!

Thank you very much.

Marchesina 05-18-2014 06:37 AM

since Princess Maria Laura is 7th in line to the throne now, but one day she will be outclassed by her cousins' children and her brother's children, it's unlikely her future husband will get any title. she will be simply known as Princess Maria Laura, Mrs XY.
Probably only Princess Elisabeth's husband will be granted a title, since she's the heiress to the throne and he will most likely be her Prince Consort when she'll succeed her father (though probably she will keep the title of Duchess of Brabant for herself, just like the Princess of Orange) ... I'm not even sure Princess Eleonore's husband will receive the same treatment.

Camberwell 05-18-2014 06:40 AM

Thank you very much.

maria-olivia 05-18-2014 07:38 AM

All Prince Lorenz girls are born TR &IHH Archduchesses of Habsbourg Este and Princesses of Belgium and will remain until the end of their lifes.
I don' remember if Archduke Otto's girls married noblemen ?

Duc_et_Pair 05-18-2014 08:12 AM

The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.

Duc_et_Pair 05-18-2014 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1666090)
[...]I don' remember if Archduke Otto's girls married noblemen ?

Archduchess Monika
married Luis María Gonzaga de Casanova-Cárdenas y Barón, Duque de Santángelo (a Spanish Duke).

Archduchess Michaela
married first Eric Alba Teran d'Antin (a French aristocrat)
and married secondly Hubertus Graf von Kageneck (a German Count).

Archduchess Gabriela
married a commoner, Christian Meister.

Archduchess Walburga
married Axel Archibald Greve Douglas and Angus (a Swedish Count)

:flowers:

Stefan 05-18-2014 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1666095)
Archduchess Monika
married Luis María Gonzaga de Casanova-Cárdenas y Barón, Duque de Santángelo (Spanish nobility).

Archduchess Michaela
married first Eric Alba Teran d'Antin (French nobility)
and married secondly Hubertus Graf von Kageneck (German nobility).

Archduchess Gabriela
married a commoner, Christian Meister.

Archduchess Walburga
married Axel Archibald Count Douglas and Angus (Swedish nobility).

:flowers:

and the oldest Archduchess Andreas married Hereditary Count Karl Eugen of Neipperg, who will once day succed his father as head of this mediatized House.

Marchesina 05-18-2014 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1666094)
The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.


Since Prince Amedeo is getting married this summer, we will see if King Philippe will release a new decree to change things (this should be the case). As you said in ... let's say 15 years ... there may be 30 or even more Princes of Belgium. I read somewhere that King George V reformed the princely title system because of numerous Princes of the United Kingdom existing all around Europe

Duc_et_Pair 05-18-2014 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1666097)
and the oldest Archduchess Andreas married Hereditary Count Karl Eugen of Neipperg, who will once day succed his fathhr succeed as head of this mediatized House.

Oops, how could I forget Archduchess Andrea, yes you are totally right!

Duc_et_Pair 05-18-2014 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchesina (Post 1666100)
Since Prince Amedeo is getting married this summer, we will see if King Philippe will release a new decree to change things (this should be the case). As you said in ... let's say 15 years ... there may be 30 or even more Princes of Belgium. I read somewhere that King George V reformed the princely title system because of numerous Princes of the United Kingdom existing all around Europe

In 2002 in the Netherlands the Royal House Act has been modernized. The thought of the lawmaker: the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau must express a close bond to the Bearer of the Crown. Since 2002 only the children of a King and of a Heir will get these titles. Special provisions are made in the Act for special cases, like the spouse of the King or the Heir.

Result: only the daughters of Willem-Alexander are Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau. The children of his brothers Friso and Constantijn do not have these titles.

The Belgians can follow this example: the title Prince(ss) of Belgium is only for children of a King or a Heir. This means that the children of the younger Princes can have another title, like in the Dutch example.

Tatiana Maria 05-18-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camberwell (Post 1665971)
If, for instance, Princess Maria Laura of Belgium grew up and married a commoner, would he get any title from his marriage to her?

I'd be very grateful for anyone who would be kind enough to help me!

Thank you very much.

Strictly speaking, he will not, and neither will the fiancée of her brother Prince Amedeo. By the royal decree of December 2, 1991 (effective December 15, 1991), spouses of Belgian princes(ses) do not bear titles by marriage.

Even so, King Albert II created the spouses of Prince Philippe, Princess Astrid, and Prince Laurent Princes(ses) of Belgium in their own right. It remains to be seen whether King Philippe shall do likewise for Prince Amedeo's fiancée and the future spouses of his siblings.

In the event that Princess Maria Laura chooses to call herself Mrs. XY after marriage, it is unlikely to be appended to her formal title. No other princess of Belgium (by blood) is formally styled in Belgium with her husband's surname or title.

crm2317 05-18-2014 02:57 PM

So if King Phillipe decides not to grant Amadeo's wife a Belgian title she will be Archduchess Amadeo of Austria-Este with no Belgium title?

maria-olivia 05-19-2014 06:35 AM

Yes. Prince Lorenz has also various tittles , such as Duc de Bar.

Mbruno 12-11-2014 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1666094)
The Belgians have a most peculiar (and in my eyes unlucky) system. The Royal Decree of 2 December 1991 says the following: "[....] the title Prince or Princess of Belgium will be granted to the Princes and Princesses whom will be born by our descendants in direct line [....]"

This means that the title is hereditary to all descendants of King Albert II, in both the male and female lineage. This leads to a staggering 22 Princes/Princesses of Belgium today and this will only increase, causing an inflation of that title. To answer your question: when this Royal Decree is not adapted, children of Archuchess Maria Laura of Austria-Este , Princess of Belgium can become Prince(ss) of Belgium indeed but NOT Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria-Este, since that is only hereditary via the male lineage.


Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.

Meraude 05-02-2015 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1729069)
Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.

As far as I understand the situation in Sweden, it's the monarch who decides what title, if any, a member of the royal family is to have. By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles. Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.

Avicenna 05-02-2015 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774497)
By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles.

-->> And maybe they will be happy to be less visible, out of the limelight. Depends on their upbringing of course, but in Madeleines case I can see this clearly happening.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774497)
.... Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.

-->> Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.

JR76 05-02-2015 07:37 AM

If a Belgian princess married an ordinary man…
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1729069)
Sweden seems to have the same problem, though not quite enshrined in law as in Belgium. In any case, I am pretty sure they will eventually limit the hereditary transmission of the title at some point.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774497)
As far as I understand the situation in Sweden, it's the monarch who decides what title, if any, a member of the royal family is to have. By the time the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are old enough to have children of their own it's most likely Victoria who are the monarch and my guess is that it's unlikely that she will create her grandnieces and grandnephews as prince(ess) of Sweden, nor give them any ducal titles. Do remember that Gustav V took away the royal titles from his grandsons when they married commoners.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Avicenna (Post 1774510)
-->> And maybe they will be happy to be less visible, out of the limelight. Depends on their upbringing of course, but in Madeleines case I can see this clearly happening.




-->> Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.


How should I put this without having the post deleted... I'm absolutely sure that if Victoria and Daniel had one or two more children Madeleines children wouldn't have any royal titles.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Stefan 05-02-2015 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 1774521)
How should I put this without having the post deleted... I'm absolutely sure that if Victoria and Daniel had one or two more children Madeleines children wouldn't have any royal titles.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

But Victoria and Daniel can still have more children.

Meraude 05-02-2015 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avicenna (Post 1774510)
Well, these were different times and a different law was in place when it came to marriages.

I meant that the monarch decides about titles within the royal family, even if the princes lost their right in the Swedish succession and their royal titles, Gustav V could have done as his father Oscar II did in 1888 when Gustav V:s younger brother married a commoner, and give the non-hereditary title of prince Bernadotte to his grandsons and given the title princess Bernadotte to their wives.

Mbruno 05-02-2015 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1774536)
I meant that the monarch decides about titles within the royal family, even if the princes lost their right in the Swedish succession and their royal titles, Gustav V could have done as his father Oscar II did in 1888 when Gustav V:s younger brother married a commoner, and give the non-hereditary title of prince Bernadotte to his grandsons and given the title princess Bernadotte to their wives.


Regardless of their titles (or lack thereof), all descendants of King Carl Gustaf will be in line to the throne under Swedish law, no matter how far their generation is from the current king.

MAfan 05-02-2015 08:34 AM

:previous:
IIRC in order to be in the line of succession they also have to be Lutheran and raised in Sweden. These two conditions can easily help to limit those able to succeed to the Throne in the future.

Stefan 05-02-2015 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 1774566)
:previous:
IIRC in order to be in the line of succession they also have to be Lutheran and raised in Sweden. These two conditions can easily help to limit those able to succeed to the Throne in the future.

And they need permisoj from the King and goverment fior their marriages.

Duc_et_Pair 07-28-2015 01:04 PM

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family
 
The newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws mentions that according Mario Danneels, an insider in royal news, Prince Amedeo indeed did not ask for royal permission to marry Donna Elisabetta.

Without royal permission also no Royal Decree (approval from the Government) as required according Article 85 of the Belgian Constitution. Donna Elisabetta can be called Princess of Belgium by the way, as that is her husband's title.

Children of Prince Amedeo will be Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria and Prince (Princess) of Hungary. Because Prince Amedeo did not ask for permission, he is no longer in the line of succession for the Belgian throne, nor will be his children.

Source: Prins Amedeo niet meer troongerechtigd - HLN.be

Moonmaiden23 07-28-2015 02:00 PM

Amedeo seems such an upright guy. Even though it's a formality getting permission to marry his girlfriend would have been a very simple thing to do and there is no doubt permission would have been given. Lili is a well-educated Catholic with an impeccable pedigree and controversy-free background.

So unless I've misjudged him and he's a secret rebel/Republican something, why did he not go through the formality of seeking permission to wed?

Duc_et_Pair 07-28-2015 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1805352)
Amedeo seems such an upright guy. Even though it's a formality getting permission to marry his girlfriend would have been a very simple thing to do and there is no doubt permission would have been given. Lili is a well-educated Catholic with an impeccable pedigree and controversy-free background.

So unless I've misjudged him and he's a secret rebel/Republican something, why did he not go through the formality of seeking permission to wed?

Most likely Prince Amedeo was requested not to seek permission, to limit the exploding number of Princes and Princesses of Belgium. Initially his father and his offspring were no Prince(ss) of Belgium anyway.

Marengo 07-28-2015 02:29 PM

:previous:

I believe that that was established by posters on this forum and elsewhere some months ago. So Danneels or HLN certainly do not have the scoop.

To Moonmaiden:

Perhaps his uncle asked him not to. Something simular happened with the younger sons of Margriet. They were asked not to ask for permission as the succession was safely established. The two elder van Vollenhovens did ask for permission as all 3 sons of Beatrix were not married and theoretically they might all have lost their succession rights one way or the other.

In Belgium the king has 4 children. It is unlikely thatthey will be removed from the succession line in some way. But if that is the case I suppose the throne would go to Maria-Laura eventually.

It will be interesting to see what will happen to Laurent's sons. I doubt they will ask for permission. But unlike Amedeo they do not have another last name or title.

BTW did Lorenz title get incorperated in the Belgian nobility, as was the case for AD Rudolph who legally is Prince von Habsburg in Belgium?

I suppose that we still do not know what Elisabetta will be called. Archduchess E. or Princess Amedeo perhaps? Quite odd that the Belgian court is not clear about it.

Moonmaiden23 07-28-2015 04:43 PM

Thanks Duc and Marengo...I always learn so much from the two of you;)!

leidi 07-28-2015 05:12 PM

Le prince Amedeo a renoncé à sa place dans l'ordre de succession au trône - La Libre.be

According to this, by not asking permission to marry, Amedeo gave up his sucession rights, he doesn't want to do official acts and live under scrutiny, that's why Elisabetta was never created a Princess of Belgium but she's an Archduchess due to Amedeo's paternal titles.

rominet09 07-28-2015 06:26 PM

What amazes me is that the papers have been so long to realize.... not a new fact I think !

Blog Real 07-28-2015 06:35 PM

I like Amedeo. I am sorry that it is outside the line of succession. :sad:

An Ard Ri 07-28-2015 06:37 PM

Would it be correct to style Elisabetta 'HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este' seeing as she was not made a Princess of Belgium?

Al_bina 07-28-2015 06:38 PM

Prince Amedeo knew what he was doing. If he decided not to seek a formal approval of his spouse, there had to be a reason for that. The Belgian royal family has enough people in the succession line. Given attempts to streamline the royal family, King Phillipe's children are the nucleus of the succession line.

Is there a reason to remove Prince Laurent's children from the succession line? Does the Belgian government intend to do so?

Blog Real 07-28-2015 06:47 PM

And now we will still see less often Amedeo and Lili. :sad:

Marengo 07-29-2015 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al_bina (Post 1805425)


Is there a reason to remove Prince Laurent's children from the succession line? Does the Belgian government intend to do so?

There is no direct reason at this point, apart from the streamlining you mention. The children of Laurent are further down the line. So if Amedeo was asked not to seek approval, I suppose we can assume something similar will happen for the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri
Would it be correct to style Elisabetta 'HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este' seeing as she was not made a Princess of Belgium?

Mathilde, Lorenz and Claire were all created prince(ss) in their own right. This did not happen with Elisabetta. But she can still use her husbands titles, like many wives do (like Princess Alexandre / Lea Wolman).





Of course if she will actually use that name/title is unknown. Neither has the court given any clarity on the matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rominet
What amazes me is that the papers have been so long to realize.... not a new fact I think !

The issue was discussed a few days ago at the BRMB. Perhaps the newspaper got inspired there. It happens more often that royalty forums are used by journalists for inspiration for articles or topics.

maria-olivia 07-29-2015 06:02 AM

They will continue the Habsbourg Este , Prince Lorenz is the head of.

Amedeo is working and wants free life . The Government never gave the tittle of Princess of Belgium to Lilli.

When his father Prince Lorenz married the King's Niece , Philippe and Laurent were still unmarried and Astrid was N° 2 , it was King Baudouin's will.

leidi 07-29-2015 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1805502)
They will continue the Habsbourg Este , Prince Lorenz is the head of.

Amedeo is working and wants free life . The Government never gave the tittle of Princess of Belgium to Lilli.

When his father Prince Lorenz married the King's Niece , Philippe and Laurent were still unmarried and Astrid was N° 2 , it was King Baudouin's will.

Wasn't the law changed in 1991? I remember that when Astrid got married in 1984, Laurent was still ahead of her in the sucession line and it was one of the reasons why Baudouin pushed for a change in the law, to keep that loose cannon as far away from the throne as possible.

Mbruno 07-29-2015 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leidi (Post 1805410)
Le prince Amedeo a renoncé à sa place dans l'ordre de succession au trône - La Libre.be

According to this, by not asking permission to marry, Amedeo gave up his sucession rights, he doesn't want to do official acts and live under scrutiny, that's why Elisabetta was never created a Princess of Belgium but she's an Archduchess due to Amedeo's paternal titles.


Now that Amedeo is no longer in the line of succession, the logical next step would be for him and his wife not to live in any Crown estate in the Royal Domain of Laeken. Let's see if he will do that.

leidi 07-29-2015 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1805505)
Now that Amedeo is no longer in the line of succession, the logical next step would be for him and his wife not to live in any Crown estate in the Royal Domain of Laeken. Let's see if he will do that.

I guess he could live in his parents' villa but not get one for him & Lili alone, right?

Mbruno 07-29-2015 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leidi (Post 1805508)
I guess he could live in his parents' villa but not get one for him & Lili alone, right?

The problem is that, as far as I understand, it is not "his parents' villa". It is Crown property made permanently available to members of the Royal Family (a settlement that was reached when the family transferred ownership of the Royal Domain to the State).

I suppose Amedeo is still part of the family, but I think living in Crown property should be a perk available only to people in the line of succession , or former monarchs (upon abdication) and/or their wives/widows. Otherwise, it looks like one wants all the benefits of being a royal without the obligations that come with it. That is only my personal opinion though.

Stefan 07-29-2015 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leidi (Post 1805508)
I guess he could live in his parents' villa but not get one for him & Lili alone, right?

Perhaps if he is paying rent for it.

Duc_et_Pair 07-29-2015 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1805424)
Would it be correct to style Elisabetta 'HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este' seeing as she was not made a Princess of Belgium?

Donna Elisabetta herself is created nothing. She can be addressed with her spouse's titles: Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Elisabetta of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria and Princess of Hungary. Like any Belgian lady who marries a Prince, a Duke, a Marquess, a Count, a Viscount, a Baron can be addressed with her spouse's title.

:flowers:

Duc_et_Pair 07-29-2015 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1805510)
Perhaps if he is paying rent for it.

Yes, the Donation Royale has LOTS of properties and most of these are rented out. If it can be rented to mr X or mrs Y, it can be rented out too to Prince Amedeo of Belgium, of course.

:flowers:

Duc_et_Pair 07-29-2015 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leidi (Post 1805504)
Wasn't the law changed in 1991? I remember that when Astrid got married in 1984, Laurent was still ahead of her in the sucession line and it was one of the reasons why Baudouin pushed for a change in the law, to keep that loose cannon as far away from the throne as possible.

Yes, back then Prince Philippe and Prince Laurent were unmarried. The Royal House was much smaller and indeed, Laurent was number three after his father and his elder brother.

maria-olivia 07-29-2015 09:47 AM

King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.
I wonder how this comes out now through Story.

maria-olivia 07-29-2015 09:50 AM

I don't remember when Archuke Lorenz was titled Prince of Belgium ?

They are Leurs Altesses Impériales et Royales l'Archiduc et l'Archiduchesse Amadeo de Habsbourg-Este.

Stefan 07-29-2015 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1805534)
I don't remember when Archuke Lorenz was titled Prince of Belgium ?

They are Leurs Altesses Impériales et Royales l'Archiduc et l'Archiduchesse Amadeo de Habsbourg-Este.

Lorenz was created Prince of Belgium on 10.11.1995 so four years after his children.

rominet09 07-29-2015 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1805533)
King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.
I wonder how this comes out now through Story.

Well July and August are empty months they have to fill :lol:

Tatiana Maria 07-30-2015 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 1805365)
BTW did Lorenz title get incorperated in the Belgian nobility, as was the case for AD Rudolph who legally is Prince von Habsburg in Belgium?

The archducal title has been included in Belgian legal documents, but to my knowledge, has not been incorporated into the Belgian nobility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1805424)
Would it be correct to style Elisabetta 'HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este' seeing as she was not made a Princess of Belgium?

Prince Amedeo himself is a Royal (not Imperial and Royal) Highness, officially speaking.

De Belgische Monarchie: Home - Actualités - Agenda - Huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo met Juffrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein
La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actueel - Agenda - Fiançailles de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo avec Mademoiselle Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein


Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 1805476)
Mathilde, Lorenz and Claire were all created prince(ss) in their own right. This did not happen with Elisabetta. But she can still use her husbands titles, like many wives do (like Princess Alexandre / Lea Wolman).

Of course if she will actually use that name/title is unknown. Neither has the court given any clarity on the matter.

Princess Alexandre was created a princess, not ad personam but as an automatic consequence of marriage: A royal decree of March 14, 1891 conferred the title Princess of Belgium on all wives of royal princes. It was only repealed nine months after the marriage of Prince and Princess Alexandre.

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique


Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1805502)
When his father Prince Lorenz married the King's Niece , Philippe and Laurent were still unmarried and Astrid was N° 2 , it was King Baudouin's will.

Princess Astrid and her children had no rights to the throne before the change to equal primogeniture.

Mbruno 07-30-2015 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 1805533)
King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.

That seems the right thing to do IMHO. Let's hope Amedeo's siblings and Laurent's children follow his example in the future.

An Ard Ri 08-02-2015 07:40 AM

Does anyone else find it odd that a year after the wedding the matter has been clarified regarding Elisabetta's title,most other royal houses would have released this information before hand.

maria-olivia 08-02-2015 08:49 AM

I am surprised this was not said one year ago !

We had no Government last year at the time of the wedding.

An Ard Ri 08-02-2015 09:33 AM

The Belgian Monarchy site has no information regarding the Belgian line of succession,well on the English version.

eya 08-02-2015 09:42 AM

I don't understand why all this discussion a year ago? I guess now discovered the journalist? Little late imagine.

*Mara* 11-24-2015 01:53 PM

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately.:huh: I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Marengo 11-24-2015 02:00 PM

Thanks for the update Mara! Quite a sensible move by the king. Still, if all his grandchildren will become princes of Belgium it will mean that under these laws there will be a few dozen of princes of Belgium around 3 decades from now: 12 grandchildren of Albert & spouses makes 24 + the eventual grandchildren of Filip + Lorenz, Astrid, Laurent and Claire.

Did they decide on the titles for grandchildren of Laurent and Astrid? I suppose Astrids grandchildren can use the Habsburg tites but what about Laurents grandchildren? Plain Mr/Miss De Belgique?

Stefan 11-24-2015 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mara* (Post 1841941)
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately.:huh: I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad


Interesting. So it is so that in chldren and grandchildren of a monarch will be Priince/Princess of Belgium like in the Uk. Also interesting that permision for Amedeo's marriage was granted retroactiv and it had not be to done before the marriage took place.

An Ard Ri 11-24-2015 02:11 PM

Interesting indeed,we'll have to wait some time to see how Laurent's grandchildren will be styled!

Mbruno 11-24-2015 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mara* (Post 1841941)
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.

That was long overdue. If King Baudouin's previous decree were still in force, all legitimate descendants of King Albert II would be princes of Belgium and the number of HRHs would grow exponentially over the next generations.

I hope Sweden does something similar soon so that CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren are not HRHs either.


Quote:

And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately.:huh: I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
Maybe now that his children will no longer be titled anyway, Amedeo doesn't see the need to renounce his succession rights anymore.

Mbruno 11-24-2015 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1841950)
Interesting indeed,we'll have to wait some time to see how Laurent's grandchildren will be styled!

The same rule that applies to Astrid applies to Laurent, i.e. his children, as grandchildren of King Albert II, remain HRHs, whereas his grandchildren (i.e Albert's great-grandchildren) will be untitled.

The royal decree actually mentions that.

Quote:

Art. 2. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

The general rule (Art 1) is, I think, that now only children and grandchildren of the King, or children or grandchildren of the Heir Apparent, plus the people in Art 2 and King Albert's sisters will be HRHs.

Quote:



Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

If I understand it correctly also, the above-referenced persons will be called, in that order:

HRH [First Name, e.g. Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène] [Family Name, if used] [Dynastic Title if any, e.g. Duchess of Brabant], Prince/Princess of Belgium, [Other titles by ancestry, if any, e.g. Archduke of Austria-Este in the case of Princess Astrid's children]

Duc_et_Pair 11-24-2015 02:54 PM

It has similarities to the British system but is more generous than that.
It has similarities to the Dutch system but is less generous than that.

NL - 2002
The children of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

BE - 2015
The children and the grandchildren of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of Belgium

In both NL and BE: all who fall outside this circle keep their already given title as a personal and non-hereditary title.

In both NL and BE: the King can create new nobility (unlike Sweden and Norway, for an example). In the Netherlands the children born to the younger princes (Friso and Constantijn) were elevated into the hereditary nobility with the title Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In Denmark Queen Margrethe elevated her children and grandchildren into the hereditary nobility with the title Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat. Belgium still has an active ennoblement policy. It would not surprise me when King Philippe or Queen Elisabeth elevate their cousins into the hereditary nobility as well.

Duc_et_Pair 11-24-2015 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1841951)
[...] Maybe now that his children will no longer be titled anyway, Amedeo doesn't see the need to renounce his succession rights anymore.

These titles only cover the titles of the Belgian Royal House. Prince Amedeo also belongs to the Austrian Imperial House, the Hungarian Royal House, to the Ducal House of Modena and the dynasty Austria-Este. The titles derived from all this are not affected as the Belgian Royal House has no jurisdiction over these titles.

He will always remain Archduke Amedeo of Austria-Este, Prince Imperial of Austria, Prince Royal of Hungary, (future) Duke of Modena

Tilia C. 11-24-2015 03:09 PM

That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government? I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

An Ard Ri 11-24-2015 03:12 PM

Could the king restore the Hainaut/Flanders titles?

Mbruno 11-24-2015 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilia C. (Post 1841973)
That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government?.

All Belgian royal decrees are issued on the advice of government ministers and are countersigned by one or more ministers who take responsibility for the content of the decree (the King himself is not responsible). In this particular case, the decree was issued on the advice of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs and countersigned by both.

Quote:

PHILIPPE, Roi des Belges,
A tous, présents et à venir, Salut.
[...]
Sur la proposition du Premier Ministre et du Ministre des Affaires étrangères,
Nous avons arrêté et arrêtons
:
Article 1er.
[....]
Art. 7. Le Premier Ministre et le Ministre ayant les Affaires étrangères dans ses attributions sont chargés, chacun en ce qui le concerne, de l'exécution du présent arrêté.
Donné à Bruxelles, le 12 novembre 2015.
PHILIPPE
Par le Roi :
Le Premier Ministre,
Ch. MICHEL
Le Ministre des Affaires étrangères,
D. REYNDERS

Quote:

Could the king restore the Hainaut/Flanders titles?
King Albert II issued another decree in 2001 granting the title of Duke or Duchess of Brabant to the eldest child of the monarch, but abolishing the title of Count of Hainaut for the Duke of Brabant's eldest son. That decree is still in force and was not repealed by King Philippe's decree.

Al_bina 11-24-2015 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mara* (Post 1841941)
... [snipped] And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately.:huh: I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.
Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

[my bolding]
Thanks for the update!:flowers::flowers:
Prince Amedeo's belated request is puzzling, indeed. Upon reading your post, my first question was "What exactly prevented him from asking for a formal marriage consent earlier?"

Cris M 11-24-2015 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilia C. (Post 1841973)
Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

I agree with you. But I wonder if they'll have no title at all. Will Prince Carl Philip's grandchildren be just Mr/Ms Bernadotte?

The same with the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. Will a noble title be creat for them or will they become Mr/Ms de Saxe-Coburg et Gotha/ de Belgique?

What about the children of Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway? He's already just a Highness, will his children have titles?

Many questions that will need to be answered in the future.

I guess the male-line grandchildren of Prince Joachim of Denmark will be Counts and Countesses of Monpezat.

Marengo 11-24-2015 05:08 PM

Re: Al Bina

I would say that he informed with the palace what the best way would be. Perhaps they adviced him on this course of action as they were working on the title change but didn't think they could finish it on time for the wedding?

Blog Real 11-24-2015 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mara* (Post 1841941)
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately.:huh: I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Amedeo is still in line to the throne? Elisabetta has title princess?

MAfan 11-24-2015 05:53 PM

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Duc_et_Pair 11-24-2015 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilia C. (Post 1841973)
That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government? I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

There is always a Government. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. A Government may be outgoing but unless the new Government has been installed, the outgoing Government remains in force. Articles in media like "Belgium is without Government for 200 days" are complete nonsense.

Like in any Constitutional system always and ever a ministerial contraseign is needed. A decision of the King without a contraseign has no jurisdiction and is not covered by the Government.

Belgium has an active nobility. Every year the King grants noble titles or even hereditary nobility. If he can do that to Mrs Jansen, he can do that too to the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. The title Princesse de Réthy is an example.

Mbruno 11-24-2015 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 1842020)
Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

As for Amedeo's other titles (archduke of Austria, prince of Hungary and Bohemia, duke of Modena, etc.), they are merely titles of pretense as they are not legally recognized by Austria, Hungary, Italy, or the Czech Republic.

Duc_et_Pair 11-24-2015 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 1842020)
Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Like the wife of a Baron can be adressed as Baroness, like the wife of a Viscount can be addressed as Viscountess, so can Donna Elisabetta be called Princess as the legally wedded spouse in a legally approved marriage to a gentleman whom holds the legally recognized titles Prince de Belgique and Archiduc d'Autriche-Este.... So Princess Elisabetta as a titre-de-courtoisie is perfect.

MAfan 11-24-2015 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1842033)
I suppose that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

I do believe the same, although for having a confirmation I think we will have to wait and see how she will be called on the first official occasion that will happen.

Tatiana Maria 11-25-2015 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blog Real (Post 1842004)
Amedeo is still in line to the throne?

The new decree authorizing Amedeo's marriage is worded to retroactively restore his succession rights, having retrospective effect from July 4, 2014 - the day before the marriage.

It may be technically illegal, inasmuch as the Constitution (official English translation) clearly says


Quote:

Article 85

The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture.

The descendant mentioned in the first paragraph who marries without the King’s consent or, in his absence, without the consent of those exercising the King’s powers in cases provided for by the Constitution shall be deprived of his right to the crown.

Nonetheless, this right may be restored by the King or, in his absence, by those exercising the powers of the King in cases provided for by the Constitution, but only with the assent of both Houses.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1842033)
Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

The decree retroactively granting consent to her marriage styles her "Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein", which is presumably her legal name and title.


12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit houdende instemming met het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België, met Mevrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal portant consentement au mariage de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, avec Madame Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

Stefan 11-25-2015 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cris M (Post 1842002)
I agree with you. But I wonder if they'll have no title at all. Will Prince Carl Philip's grandchildren be just Mr/Ms Bernadotte?

The same with the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. Will a noble title be creat for them or will they become Mr/Ms de Saxe-Coburg et Gotha/ de Belgique?

What about the children of Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway? He's already just a Highness, will his children have titles?

The problem in Sweden and Norway is that the respective King's can not create new Titles. They can decide about the Title Prince/Princess and the for the members of the Royal Families and the swedish King can also decide about the Dukeodoms for members of the RF which are personal and not heriditary.

Stefan 11-25-2015 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 1842078)


I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

Skippy 11-25-2015 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1842095)
She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

Koninklijke Bedankkaartjes 2015 - search for Elisabetta.
Basically the same as the link that Tatiana Maria gave, but still.
If Amedeo only signs with his name, it would probably be a bit strange if Elisabetta would sign with "Princess Elisabetta".

Noble Consort Ming 11-25-2015 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1842095)
She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

Scroll further in the link you quoted and you will see a card where she is called Princess Elisabetta.

Mbruno 11-25-2015 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 1842078)
The new decree authorizing Amedeo's marriage is worded to retroactively restore his succession rights, having retrospective effect from July [FONT=Verdana]4, 2014 - the day before the marriage.

It may be technically illegal, inasmuch as the Constitution (official English translation)


I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

The decree retroactively granting consent to her marriage styles her "Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein", which is presumably her legal name and title.


12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit houdende instemming met het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België, met Mevrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal portant consentement au mariage de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, avec Madame Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

Interesting point about the decree being unconstitutional. I agree that a resolution passed by both houses of Parliament would be necessary to restore Amedeo's succession rights, but i doubt anyone will challenge the retroactive decree in the courts.

Marengo 11-25-2015 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy (Post 1842113)
Koninklijke Bedankkaartjes 2015 - search for Elisabetta.
Basically the same as the link that Tatiana Maria gave, but still.
If Amedeo only signs with his name, it would probably be a bit strange if Elisabetta would sign with "Princess Elisabetta".

Thank you Skippy.

A direct link to the card: https://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg

maria-olivia 11-25-2015 05:30 AM

We had no Government when Prince Amadeo 's wedding took place in Rome.

His Children will be Imperial and Royal Highnesses of Habsbourg not bad at all. The same for Prince Joachim.

The Girls of Princess Astrid will keep their tittle their whole life ;

For Prince Laurent
The same for Louise
But for the twins future wifes will they be Princesses of Belgium, I don't know.

eya 11-25-2015 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mara* (Post 1841941)
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


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Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Thanks *Mara* for this like the others said very interest. I see that the children of Princess Eleonore will have the titles prince-princess like Princess Madeleine in Sweden. And of course the other i want to say I think of Prince Laurent grandchildren certainly there will be noble titles to give them.

Stefan 11-25-2015 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming (Post 1842114)
Scroll further in the link you quoted and you will see a card where she is called Princess Elisabetta.

Ok thanks. But is not herself who called her Princess Elisabetta but someone from the Court people. But that happen more often for example there is also a CArd from Prince Gabriel of Luxembourg but he is not Prince oif Luxembourg but only Prince of Nassau

maria-olivia 11-25-2015 07:32 AM

Perhaps they will announce a pregnancy ?

Cris M 11-25-2015 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1842094)
The problem in Sweden and Norway is that the respective King's can not create new Titles. They can decide about the Title Prince/Princess and the for the members of the Royal Families and the swedish King can also decide about the Dukeodoms for members of the RF which are personal and not heriditary.

I hope the respective governments will allow for a change. I have a hard time believing the legitimate children of a Prince are going to be plain Mr/Ms something.

Maybe the male-line grandchildren of Prince Carl Philip and the children of Prince Nicolas can be Counts and Countesses of Bernadotte. I'm not sure about which title could created for the children of Prince Sverre Magnus.

Skippy 11-25-2015 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1842124)
Ok thanks. But is not herself who called her Princess Elisabetta but someone from the Court people. But that happen more often for example there is also a CArd from Prince Gabriel of Luxembourg but he is not Prince oif Luxembourg but only Prince of Nassau

So I suppose you would want to see a card or something that has her own handwriting (like the wedding thank you card) - which would make the title usage "official"?
I doubt there is any use of a title, I suspect they sign with just Amedeo and Elisabetta Maria, but up to now we don't know for sure of course.

Stefan 11-25-2015 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy (Post 1842161)
So I suppose you would want to see a card or something that has her own handwriting (like the wedding thank you card) - which would make the title usage "official"?
I doubt there is any use of a title, I suspect they sign with just Amedeo and Elisabetta Maria, but up to now we don't know for sure of course.

I only wanted to point out that we can not conclude that she calls herself Princess Elisabetta. It could also be a mistake by their staff.


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