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donnaK 01-18-2018 11:36 PM

Zarzuela had never really forced Cristina to divorce Inaki. JC presented two options to her, renounce her Duchess of Palma title, or keep her dukedom and leave Inaki. It's was a difficult decision for JC too, but he had no choice under that difficult circumstance. For the sake of her father and the Spanish monarchy, she should have renounced her dukedom after she was imputed, but she refused either option. Now we all know what the final outcome is.

donnaK 01-18-2018 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2064675)
They could even have taken a picture with his sisters if they wanted more variation; or only with Felipe and his family, or just a portrait of the king. The way they did it was publicly showing: look my middle child and four grand children aren't here because my son refuses their husband and father entrance.

I guess it would be more skeptical if Zarzuela only released a picture of JC and Sofia, sisters are not even \royal family members, they are members of King's family.
It would have been more scandalous if Inaki had been allowed to enter Zarzuela to attend JC's birthday celebration. So keeping the original plan was still the best choice IMO, the only thing most people missed was seeing Cristina's kids in the picture, they should have been there to honor their grandpa.

donnaK 01-19-2018 04:38 AM

camelot23ca, I heard of stories your friends told you. I'm sure JC was aware of Noos and he even helped Inaki to facilitate deals upon the request from his daughter Cristina. But with JC's busy schedule as the King of Spain, there was no way he knew the details of Noos' day-to-day operation or even illegal dealings. Plus Inaki probably wouldn't listen to him all the time. For example, there were talks of JC warning Inaki not to touch public money, Inaki didn't listen. After Noos scandal went public, JC told Inaki to apologize and return the money, Inaki also refused. Anyway, at the end each one is responsible for his own action.
I heard JC did visit Cristina and grandchildren in Geneva a few times, he was at Juan Valentine's graduation. Yes, there were no photos, but this time there was no picture of JC attending Inaki's birthday either. If he didn't want to be photographed, he certainly could do it as long as he didn't appear at Cristina's residence, waving to photographers outside.
At the end, we have to agree and disagree the family picture being controversial. If one of the children didn't want to show up, then be it, there was no need to alter the plan.

Mbruno 01-19-2018 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donnaK (Post 2064805)
Zarzuela had never really forced Cristina to divorce Inaki. JC presented two options to her, renounce her Duchess of Palma title, or keep her dukedom and leave Inaki. It's was a difficult decision for JC too, but he had no choice under that difficult circumstance. For the sake of her father and the Spanish monarchy, she should have renounced her dukedom after she was imputed, but she refused either option. Now we all know what the final outcome is.


There is no such thing as "renouncing her dukedom" unilaterally. Titles of nobility that belong to the Crown can be used by members of the RF on a personal basis by grace of the monarch, who can also revoke that right of use at any time. Revocations can be effected only by royal decree with ministerial countersignature.

Losing her ducal title is also a very soft punishment. It would have made more sense if she had resigned her place in the line of succession to the throne, which, again, could not have been done unilaterally though as, under the Spanish constitution, renunciatons must be validated by an organic law passed by the Spanish parliament.

camelot23ca 01-19-2018 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donnaK (Post 2064868)
camelot23ca, I heard of stories your friends told you. I'm sure JC was aware of Noos and he even helped Inaki to facilitate deals upon the request from his daughter Cristina. But with JC's busy schedule as the King of Spain, there was no way he knew the details of Noos' day-to-day operation or even illegal dealings. Plus Inaki probably wouldn't listen to him all the time. For example, there were talks of JC warning Inaki not to touch public money, Inaki didn't listen. After Noos scandal went public, JC told Inaki to apologize and return the money, Inaki also refused. Anyway, at the end each one is responsible for his own action.
I heard JC did visit Cristina and grandchildren in Geneva a few times, he was at Juan Valentine's graduation. Yes, there were no photos, but this time there was no picture of JC attending Inaki's birthday either. If he didn't want to be photographed, he certainly could do it as long as he didn't appear at Cristina's residence, waving to photographers outside.
At the end, we have to agree and disagree the family picture being controversial. If one of the children didn't want to show up, then be it, there was no need to alter the plan.

If Juan Carlos helped Inaki facilitate deals or was even peripherally involved with helping his son in law and yet didn’t know the details of his business then he is a first rate fool. And, whatever else Juan carlos might be, he’s no fool. Cristina I can actually easily believe did not know that Inaki was doing anything illegal - she was well educated and likely intelligent enough, but a woman of her time, place and social station would not necessarily have been raised to be financially knowledgeable, let alone financially sophisticated, the expectation being she either marry someone who could handle the money or Dad would set her husband up AND THEN keep an eye on things. It’s not an uncommon scenario and it’s one in which things are more nuanced than everyone being responsible for his own actions because, while the nominal businessman may be the son in law, everyone dealing with him knows who the boss actually is. While not excusing Inaki in any way, it’s difficult to envision a set of circumstances where he could have taken the actions that led to the Noos case without the knowledge and at least tacit approval of his father in law.

Juan Carlos may have been busy as King, (although I think the lack of spare time both he and his son have is exaggerated - Juan Carlos certainly found time for all sorts of extracurricular activities), but, with the knowledge and resources to which he had access, it wouldn’t have taken much time for him to be kept apprised of what was going on with Inaki’s business. And I believe he was.

In terms of the picture, yes, let’s agree to disagree. :) It will be interesting to see how the family situation plays out.

Somebody 01-19-2018 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2064889)
There is no such thing as "renouncing her dukedom" unilaterally. Titles of nobility that belong to the Crown can be used by members of the RF on a personal basis by grace of the monarch, who can also revoke that right of use at any time. Revocations can be effected only by royal decree with ministerial countersignature.

Losing her ducal title is also a very soft punishment. It would have made more sense if she had resigned her place in the line of succession to the throne, which, again, could not have been done unilaterally though as, under the Spanish constitution, renunciations must be validated by an organic law passed by the Spanish parliament.

Cristina was forced to renounce her ducal title (or it was taken from her) before a judge had even made a decision on her case; while I do agree that she most likely knew far more than she is trying to make us believe (and the judge apparently couldn't proof it), formally she was charged but not convicted of the more serious charges. So, she was 'punished' before her guilt was established (which in the end it was not).

Do people on this board think that being in a legal procedure people should be punished before even the first verdict was made? While I was surprised that she got away with it, formally she wasn't guilty but only profited from the scheme.

Wouldn't her renunciation also lead to the revocation of her children's rights to the throne? It seems 'common' that renunciation also include any descendent he/she might have... However, normally renunciations are done before the children are born (for example, king Felipe wouldn't have been king had his great-uncle not renounced his rights AND that of his descendants) - we might have had king Luis Alfonso instead.

Somebody 01-19-2018 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donnaK (Post 2064805)
Zarzuela had never really forced Cristina to divorce Inaki. JC presented two options to her, renounce her Duchess of Palma title, or keep her dukedom and leave Inaki. It's was a difficult decision for JC too, but he had no choice under that difficult circumstance. For the sake of her father and the Spanish monarchy, she should have renounced her dukedom after she was imputed, but she refused either option. Now we all know what the final outcome is.

Glad that she took her marriage vows more seriously than her title. In that way she is a far better example than her father who didn't take his vows seriously at all.

Still, I don't see why she had to do so when she was imputed instead of after conviction.

I don't understand what you think the outcome would have been had Cristina renounced her title a little earlier compared to what it is right now, would you mind elaborating?

Somebody 01-19-2018 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpriestess (Post 2064769)
What's so "outrageous" about a woman who claims she trusted her husband but he duped her into signing illegal documents and dragged her through all the legal and financial troubles divorces the lousy husband? Not to mention her husband cheated on her. It's what most self-respecting women would have done. By standing by him, her "ignorant trusting wife" defense lost all credibility. Most people believe she knew everything and by protecting her, Juan Carlos lost his credibility too. Yes, many people suspected JC knew and helped Inaki. That's why JC lost his sky-high popularity over 30+ years in just 2, 3 years.

It is outrageous if someone else strongly suggests she should divorce instead of help her work through issues in her marriage. Acknowledgement that he made very bad choices (with or without her knowledge and/or her father's knowledge) is required; and yes, she would be in her right to divorce (although Iņaki's infidelity wasn't part of the discussion so far) but that's not something someone should be wishing for or put a lot of pressure on.

Quote:

Crisitna should have made a "gesture" to show her remorse for what she and Inaki did but she never did. She wants the cake and eat it too without a care about the damage she did to the institution that provided her all the privileges from birth. She never apologized for living large on ill-begotten public money. She refused divorcing the cad who "duped" her and cheated on her. She refused to give up her succession right. She tried every chance she got to breach the "fire wall" Casa Real put in place after Noos scandal broke. She only thought about herself instead of her father, brother and the monarchy. That's why she's a spoiled and selfish brat. JC reportedly was disappointed by her but he has no one to blame but himself how she turned out.
Earlier in your post you stated that Juan Carlos must have known, so it is inconsistent to now blame her for not thinking about her father. He was most likely the one who was in the position to stop it before it even started - probably more so than his daughter. So, if you blame both, why should she be blamed blame for not protecting her father's image (who might be more to blame). I imagine she considers that rather hypocritical,

If everyone is convinced that Juan Carlos was in the know; why is he not being persecuted as well? If it would be true that they both knew, both should be punished (next to Iņaki himself) - although I assume that must be proven first; as they won't volunteer that information but have the best lawyers to keep that from happening.

highpriestess 01-19-2018 09:53 PM

I never said Juan Carlos must have known. You mistaken me for someone else.

Cristina isn't any woman. She's an Infanta, who enjoys privileges above and beyond regular women. Her position comes with obligations and duties beyond just herself. She has a duty toward the monarchy which gives her all the privileges in life and an obligation to Spanish people who pay for her lifestyle.

Her husband has been dragging the monarchy through the mud. The Noos scandal has been going on for more than 6 years. The monarchy's popularity dipped below 50% after 2012. It's not the court of laws that matters. It's the court of public opinion. The monarchy can't survive without goodwill from a majority of the public. Most Spanish people have judged her and her husband. The dire situation requires a gesture from her.

She can either "keep her vow" to the cheating/lying/stealing husband and denounce her succession right or she can divorce her cheating/lying/stealing husband. I'm sure this was pointed out to her and I see nothing outrageous about the suggestion or demand. It's called crisis management 101.

But Cristina refused doing either because she only thinks of herself. She wants to keep her boy toy and her position. She doesn't care whether her father was tainted by trying to help her. She doesn't care whether the monarchy is under attacks from all sides. She doesn't care whether her brother gets burned by all the hot mess she caused. She only cares what SHE wants. She's the definition of selfish spoiled brat.

P. S. Inaki's partner leaked a lot of personal emails to the press that clearly showed Inaki cheated on her. That was public knowledge.

kalnel 01-19-2018 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelot23ca (Post 2063351)
Putting the hopefully false rumours of illness aside, Cristina has lovely children, (although I wish the eldest boy would get rid of the side burns)! Irene, in particular has really matured and has grown into a very pretty young girl.

I'm amazed at how different the boys look, especially Pablo. He's so much darker than the last picture I saw. (I guess it has been a while since I saw a picture of them.)

I thought Cristina looked like most typical 50-year-old women. A little tired, maybe, but fine and put together appropriately.

Inaki looks good too. Much less stressed than during the trial.

Somebody 01-20-2018 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpriestess (Post 2065249)
I never said Juan Carlos must have known. You mistaken me for someone else.

Thanks for correcting that. My apologies.

Quote:

Cristina isn't any woman. She's an Infanta, who enjoys privileges above and beyond regular women. Her position comes with obligations and duties beyond just herself. She has a duty toward the monarchy which gives her all the privileges in life and an obligation to Spanish people who pay for her lifestyle.

Her husband has been dragging the monarchy through the mud. The Noos scandal has been going on for more than 6 years. The monarchy's popularity dipped below 50% after 2012. It's not the court of laws that matters. It's the court of public opinion. The monarchy can't survive without goodwill from a majority of the public. Most Spanish people have judged her and her husband. The dire situation requires a gesture from her.

She can either "keep her vow" to the cheating/lying/stealing husband and denounce her succession right or she can divorce her cheating/lying/stealing husband. I'm sure this was pointed out to her and I see nothing outrageous about the suggestion or demand. It's called crisis management 101.
In what way are the Spanish people currently paying for her lifestyle? And how would that change if she would renounce her succession rights (and would that be for her and her children?

To me it is outrageous to suggest someone divorces someone when that marriage in itself apparently is not the problem [indeed there she has a duty that's greater than herself: she made her marriage vows before God]. I agree that the public opinion matters; but divorce is not the way to go in my eyes, especially not if she knew (and if her family knew) - that would be extremely hypocritically: let Iņaki suffer for the family's bad deeds. She did give up her style as Duchess of Palma de Mallorca (by which Iņaki was allowed to call himself Duke of Palma de Mallorca). What would be the additional step of giving up her succession rights add to that (and how would that change a thing)? She is no longer a member of the Casa Real, gave up her ducal title (she wouldn't have done so had Felipe not pressured her about it), etc.; so, it would be mostly symbolic (but in her eyes probably a sign of admitting guilt which she pleads she isn't - and as I said, I'm not so sure about that, but I understand that rationale)? In addition, I'm not sure people would be satisfied with that and might still ask for divorce and other signs of remorse.

Quote:

But Cristina refused doing either because she only thinks of herself. She wants to keep her boy toy and her position. She doesn't care whether her father was tainted by trying to help her. She doesn't care whether the monarchy is under attacks from all sides. She doesn't care whether her brother gets burned by all the hot mess she caused. She only cares what SHE wants. She's the definition of selfish spoiled brat.
Why would both queen Sofia and infanta Elena show such clear signs of support for their daughter and sister if she was so selfish? It seems that either they are also spoiled brats who don't understand the real world (and I'm afraid there is some true in them not fully understand how less privileged people live their lives) or there is some understanding for why Cristina is doing what she is doing within her own family. It would be very hard for me to criticize queen Sofia for not carrying about the monarchy as an institution... and she freely and openly associates with this 'destructor of the monarchy'.

In a way, Felipe already dealt quite effectively with the situation by completely banning her earlier (and now accepting her, as she wasn't found guilty, but keeping her at bay as much as possible by refusing Iņaki) - more so than his father; sharing pictures of 'half of the family' just brings the attention back to all of this... So not the smartest thing to do IMO. Although for the family I am sorry to see the rupture - but that's what Iņaki, and any others that might have known, caused, so they have to deal with the consequences; but still it is sad.

highpriestess 01-20-2018 04:59 AM

Spainish people paid for her lifestyle until she got excluded from official acts. And don't forget, she lived off the money Inaki defrauded from Balearic Islands for years. That's taxpayers' money as well. Now, her parents subsidize her living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Her parents both get paid by the taxpayers.

"She" didn't give up her duchess title. Felipe revoked it. She leaked the resignation letter just to save face. Zarzuela stated to the press they received the letter after Felipe informed her his decision. You can choose to believe her. I don't buy it. That sting she pulled annoyed Felipe greatly. She tried to undermine the King. Plus, the duchess title was not hers to resign. It's for the King to grant or revoke.

But only she can renounce her succession right, something JC, Felipe and frankly, most Spanish people want her to do. Her remaining in the line of succession gives ammunition to republicans to attack the monarchy with. Plus, her succession right is meaningless at this point. She's far down the line. Even if some unthinkable happens that she's the next in line, Spain will become a republic. Majority of Spaniards will not accept her as queen no matter what at this point. BTW, she's not "acquitted". She's fined. Someone who's acquitted wouldn't have been fined.

Sofia and Elena have no idea of the real world, the political climate, the public opinion. They're as tune deaf and arrogant as most born-royals. They think they can do whatever they want to. Of course they don't feel what Cristina did was anything wrong. The family has been dysfunctional for decades. The rupture only shows in recent years because the press refrained from reporting it in the past. The dysfunction was mostly caused by JC and Cristina. They only have themselves to blame.

carlota 01-20-2018 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelot23ca (Post 2065087)
If Juan Carlos helped Inaki facilitate deals or was even peripherally involved with helping his son in law and yet didn’t know the details of his business then he is a first rate fool. And, whatever else Juan carlos might be, he’s no fool. Cristina I can actually easily believe did not know that Inaki was doing anything illegal - she was well educated and likely intelligent enough, but a woman of her time, place and social station would not necessarily have been raised to be financially knowledgeable, let alone financially sophisticated, the expectation being she either marry someone who could handle the money or Dad would set her husband up AND THEN keep an eye on things.

so you are saying that cristina (an infanta of spain who was the first spanish royal woman to obtain a university degree, who went to some of the best universities in the world, had access to a lifetime around high-profile figures discussing politics and economics) is not financially knowledgeable, yet her husband (a sportsman with no formal university degree) is? i am sorry, but i don't buy that. cristina is equally financially sophisticated, if not more so, than inaki.

Marengo 01-20-2018 08:27 AM

I believe she studied Political Sciences and International Relations. Both studies will not have much - or any- financial courses.

Duke of Marmalade 01-20-2018 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpriestess (Post 2065353)
Sofia and Elena have no idea of the real world, the political climate, the public opinion. They're as tune deaf and arrogant as most born-royals. They think they can do whatever they want to. Of course they don't feel what Cristina did was anything wrong. The family has been dysfunctional for decades. The rupture only shows in recent years because the press refrained from reporting it in the past. The dysfunction was mostly caused by JC and Cristina. They only have themselves to blame.

Wow, that's quite a statement! The only person who is not mentioned here from the original family is Felipe, maybe he has been blind and deaf in the last decade because at least on pictures he always seemed to be very comfortable with his sisters and especially with his mother, still posing happily with Inaki in 2008, shortly before he was shipped off to Washington. But those were the days when all the scandals hadn't tainted the public image yet and no sacrifices had to be made.

They ALL must have known what was going on but didn't care one bit until the story wouldn't go away anymore.

Somebody 01-20-2018 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpriestess (Post 2065353)
Spainish people paid for her lifestyle until she got excluded from official acts. And don't forget, she lived off the money Inaki defrauded from Balearic Islands for years. That's taxpayers' money as well. Now, her parents subsidize her living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Her parents both get paid by the taxpayers.

In the past, yes, i fully agree and living of fraudulent money also was tax payers money? Didn't the judge oder them to pay all of that back or was it even with the trial and heavy fine a lucrative deal for them (they should have been ordered to pay back evey dime). Currently, yes, they lead a lifestyle that many people can only dream of but tax payers wouldn't pay less to the former king and queen if they weren't supporting their daughter's family.

Quote:

"She" didn't give up her duchess title. Felipe revoked it. She leaked the resignation letter just to save face. Zarzuela stated to the press they received the letter after Felipe informed her his decision. You can choose to believe her. I don't buy it. That sting she pulled annoyed Felipe greatly. She tried to undermine the King. Plus, the duchess title was not hers to resign. It's for the King to grant or revoke.
I thought I made it pretty clear I don't buy her story either. That's why I stress it wasn't a voluntary resignation (but apparently even the king accepted it as such). And I am not sure how she saved face if everyone knows that the king told her he would revoke it and especially if she was technically not able to resign her title. I understand that the king wasn't happy about it as communication management is key in these issues and she completely blew it.

Quote:

But only she can renounce her succession right, something JC, Felipe and frankly, most Spanish people want her to do. Her remaining in the line of succession gives ammunition to republicans to attack the monarchy with. Plus, her succession right is meaningless at this point. She's far down the line. Even if some unthinkable happens that she's the next in line, Spain will become a republic. Majority of Spaniards will not accept her as queen no matter what at this point. BTW, she's not "acquitted". She's fined. Someone who's acquitted wouldn't have been fined.
Fined for having profitted from fraudulous acts and since this semtence she has been welcomed back to the court! So, I see why people would like her to take this symbolic step but also why she doesn't think that she has to do so. I'm still wonderi g about the position of her children... would the people who like her to take this step be fine with her oldest son as a king?

Quote:

Sofia and Elena have no idea of the real world, the political climate, the public opinion. They're as tune deaf and arrogant as most born-royals. They think they can do whatever they want to. Of course they don't feel what Cristina did was anything wrong. The family has been dysfunctional for decades. The rupture only shows in recent years because the press refrained from reporting it in the past. The dysfunction was mostly caused by JC and Cristina. They only have themselves to blame.
In that case becoming a republic seems the only solution... as I personally know quite a few Spaniards and long-term residents whose opinions have never been favorable regarding Felipe and especially Letizia. So, that's the whole family...

Somebody 01-20-2018 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 2065418)
Wow, that's quite a statement! The only person who is not mentioned here from the original family is Felipe, maybe he has been blind and deaf in the last decade because at least on pictures he always seemed to be very comfortable with his sisters and especially with his mother, still posing happily with Inaki in 2008, shortly before he was shipped off to Washington. But those were the days when all the scandals hadn't tainted the public image yet and no sacrifices had to be made.

They ALL must have known what was going on but didn't care one bit until the story wouldn't go away anymore.

That's what makes me feel for Cristina (although I condemn their actions in the NOOS case and think everyone involved should suffer the consequences through the judicial system). If they all knew, her brother is keeping up appearances playing the good guy while throwing her and her husband under the bus. I understand that Felipe has to do so to save the monarchy but from her perspective it must be extremely hypocritical. Why should they suffer all the consequences (other than also having benefitted most) and he be lauded for taking actions against them. Felipe was very close to both Cristina and Iņaki, was part of the same social circles so it is very unlikely that he had no idea what was going on - at least by the time the family moved to Washington: the reasons must have been known to him. It seems that the whole family thought they were above the law... and only two of them got caught.

They only one that seems to have kept a distance from the start was Letizia. We of course don't know whether that has anything to do with these kinds of behaviours, nor do we know what she might have known, but she never seemed to fit in.

lula 01-20-2018 12:35 PM

The suspicions that Iņaki was taking advantage of his position were known... in the House of the King, the family, local politicians and the press ... but one thing is to take advantage of your position and quite another to issue false invoices or defraud in your taxes. To think that a person is an opportunist, is very different to know that he is committing a crime, and to have access to his accounts and documents to prove it.

Iņaki had two stages. While he was a professional athlete, he lived in sports, won prizes and had a good salary. The problem arose from the year 2000, when he left the professional sport and had to develop a new professional work.

Iņaki could have had a professional job, with a good salary and not hurt the Crown ... but he was too ambitious and self-centered and wanted to do things his way, and that was the problem. Cristina, Jaime or Elena had jobs that they would not have achieved without being who they were, but they earned a salary like any worker.

His business experience really started in 2004 and in 2006 the King forced him to leave (he left officially but continued to collaborate). Actually the period of time was very short, although the damage caused was great.

Mbruno 01-20-2018 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2065435)

In that case becoming a republic seems the only solution... as I personally know quite a few Spaniards and long-term residents whose opinions have never been favorable regarding Felipe and especially Letizia. So, that's the whole family...

Opinion polls show that support for the monarchy is still fairly high nationwide in Spain (around 60 %) and Felipe personally gets close to a 70 % approval rating in some polls. I suppose that the "few Spaniards and long-term residents" you know may be a biased sample then.

Duc_et_Pair 01-20-2018 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpriestess (Post 2065353)
Spainish people paid for her lifestyle [...]

By my best knowledge neither the Infanta Doņa Cristina nor her sister the Infanta Doņa Elena received an income from the State. The same counts for her aunts the Infanta Doņa Margarita and the Infanta Doņa Pilar as well for her late grandparents the Conde and the Condesa de Barcelona.

The only ones to receive an apanage are the King, Doņa Letizia as well Don Juan Carlos and Doņa Sofía.

When the Infantas have expenses in the exercisd of the royal function, they can get it reimbursed from the King's budget. These expenses are capped on 25.000 Euro pro year. Spain has one of the cheapest monarchies of Europe.


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