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TedzLee 06-03-2014 08:30 PM

Proclamation of Felipe VI; Suggestions & Musings
 
The Coronation of Prince Felipe of Asturias will take place on June 18, 2014.

USCtrojan 06-03-2014 10:03 PM

Are the Spanish monarchs crowned? I have never seen pictures of King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia in regalia. I thought he was just sworn in. Can anyone confirm?

Charlotte_Aster 06-04-2014 01:34 AM

No they are not crowned. The King is sworn in in the Parliement. Maybe there will be some sort of a church service.

NoorMeansLight 06-04-2014 10:35 AM

Thanks for the date! So soon indeed!
I hope there will be many royals present, apart from uncle Conny & Co. ;)

Marty91charmed 06-04-2014 11:33 AM

Hope to see Albert and Charlene too!

dazzling 06-04-2014 11:58 AM

I doubt this will be a big event like The Netherlands. I don't think any foreign guests will be attending or I can be wrong.

muriel 06-04-2014 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoorMeansLight (Post 1672208)
Thanks for the date! So soon indeed!
I hope there will be many royals present, apart from uncle Conny & Co. ;)

I am expecting this to be a very low key event. I would be surprised if there were any foreign royals present, other than the Greeks.

USCtrojan 06-04-2014 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muriel (Post 1672281)
I am expecting this to be a very low key event. I would be surprised if there were any foreign royals present, other than the Greeks.


The Princes Philip and Aleksander of Serbia are the god-children of HM Queen Sofia. It would be nice if they were present.

cepe 06-04-2014 12:18 PM

Spain is hard up. High profile attendees will mean high profile security. In practical terms, the timescale (2 wks notice) and cost will probably mean no o/seas guests.

Duc_et_Pair 06-04-2014 12:35 PM

It is a proclamation, no coronation. Only the UK still has coronations.

When I listened to the words spoken in 1975, then the most senior member of the Cortes (or the person who presides the special assembly) speaks the following words (my translation from spoken text, adapted to 2014):

"In name of the Spanish Cortes and the Council of State, expressing to the Spanish Nation that now is proclaimed King of Spain: Don Felipe de Borbón y Grecia, to reign under the name Felipe VI.

Deputies, Councillors: with emotion and gratitude for the Reign of Don Juan Carlos: ¡Viva el Rey! ¡Viva España!

Cory 06-04-2014 01:51 PM

I hope the Romanian,Greek,Serbian,Bulgarian Royals will attend the event.

Mbruno 06-04-2014 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazzling (Post 1672279)
I doubt this will be a big event like The Netherlands. I don't think any foreign guests will be attending or I can be wrong.

If there is an inauguration mass, I'm pretty sure members of foreign royal families will be invited.

If there is only a swearing-in ceremony in the parliament, it will be a low-key event (i.e not as glamorous/formal as a Dutch inauguration) and no foreign guests are likely to attend.

Duc_et_Pair 06-04-2014 04:25 PM

I agree. The Investiture ceremony with the proclamation will be "intimate" (no foreign guests, like in Belgium). A few weeks later the Armed Forces will hold a special parade, I believe and of course a Te Deum. In connection to that, I can imagine there will be foreign guests too.

Mbruno 06-04-2014 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1672399)
I agree. The Investiture ceremony with the proclamation will be "intimate" (no foreign guests, like in Belgium). A few weeks later the Armed Forces will hold a special parade, I believe and of course a Te Deum. In connection to that, I can imagine there will be foreign guests too.


I looked up on the Web and here is a list of some of the foreign guests who attended the enthronement mass for King Juan Carlos in 1975:

" Inside the Church took their places the King and Queen of the Hellenes, Prince Rainier and Princess Grace of Monaco, the President of France and the President of the Federal Republic of Germany, the President of Ireland, the Grand-Master of the Order of Malta, the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Liège, the Prince Sidi Mohamed of Morocco, the Prince Bertil of Sweden, the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, the Vice-President of the United States of America, Nelson Rockefeller among representatives of over 80 countries and around 700 guests. "


Apparently, it was a big event.

principessa 06-04-2014 04:39 PM

I guess we will only see King Felipe VI, Queen Letizia, King Juan Carlos, Queen Sofia and the Infantas Leonor and Sofia at the inauguration events.

No Elena, no Cristina, no Marichalar children, no Urdangarin children.

ANNIE_S 06-04-2014 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by principessa (Post 1672410)
I guess we will only see King Felipe VI, Queen Letizia, King Juan Carlos, Queen Sofia and the Infantas Leonor and Sofia at the inauguration events.

No Elena, no Cristina, no Marichalar children, no Urdangarin children.

They say we could see more of the extended family during the signing of the Abdication Law by King Juan Carlos, which will be at the Royal Palace the same day as the proclamation.

And by "extended family" I mean both Elena and Cristina´s families and both Infantas Pilar and Margarita.

But they are only rumours and assumptions so far.

An Ard Ri 06-04-2014 07:03 PM

The Kings sisters and aunts all attended the Proclamation Ceremony for King Juan Carlos ,however it might be very different this time round.

kathia_sophia 06-04-2014 07:20 PM

Can someone explain better to me? There's the signing, Felipe needs to swear, proclamation ceremony, and more? I'm a bit confused here, I saw pictures of Queen Sofia wearing a pink dress & later a blue dress with mantilla.
Can someone explain to me what and how the ceremonies will be? Which ones? All in the same very day? If yes, that means a full pack day with schedules and changing clothes?
I'm so confused here, I need help ;)

ANNIE_S 06-04-2014 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathia_sophia (Post 1672467)
Can someone explain better to me? There's the signing, Felipe needs to swear, proclamation ceremony, and more? I'm a bit confused here, I saw pictures of Queen Sofia wearing a pink dress & later a blue dress with mantilla.
Can someone explain to me what and how the ceremonies will be? Which ones? All in the same very day? If yes, that means a full pack day with schedules and changing clothes?
I'm so confused here, I need help ;)

I feel strange explaining these things, because nothing is really official yet so I feel like I could be giving you wrong information and messing things even more :ermm:, but still...

About King Juan Carlos proclamation: the event where Sofia wears the hot pink dress was the day of the proclamation. There were no foreign guest at that ceremony.

The event where she wears the blue dress with mantilla was the Te Deum (mass) at San Jerónimo´s church. That was a different day, short after the proclamation, and there were many foreign guest that can be seen in the video posted by An Ard Ri. Afterwards, they went to the Royal Palace and had a balcony appearance (I assume there was a reception/lunch/dinner too).

What we can expect similar to this on Felipe´s proclamation:

Well, the ceremony of proclamation at the Parliament should be quite similar. We don´t know yet about the protocol, but uniforms/morning dress for men and long dress (no tiara and no orders) for ladies like that occasion is quite possible.

Before that ceremony can take place, King Juan Carlos must "stop being king", so he has to signed the Organic Law destined to that (that Law is what the parliament is now preparing and will be ready on June 18th, after the approvals of both Congress and Senate). According to the most recent information, that would take place in a short ceremony the same day that the proclamation, quite probably at the Royal Palace of Madrid (similar to the Dutch abdication). After that happens, Felipe will be already King of Spain, but he has to be inmediately sworn at the Parliament-and it is then when they will go to the Parliament and the ceremony of proclamation takes place.

Since everything happens the same day (probably the same morning), I don´t think we´ll see different clothes from one event to another.

And we are guessing that there will not be foreign guests that day, so if there is going to be some kind of mass, party or reception in order to receiving foreign dignataries, that will be on a different day like it happened with KJC and QS.

Hope this helps ;)

cepe 06-04-2014 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1672406)
I looked up on the Web and here is a list of some of the foreign guests who attended the enthronement mass for King Juan Carlos in 1975:

" Inside the Church took their places the King and Queen of the Hellenes, Prince Rainier and Princess Grace of Monaco, the President of France and the President of the Federal Republic of Germany, the President of Ireland, the Grand-Master of the Order of Malta, the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Liège, the Prince Sidi Mohamed of Morocco, the Prince Bertil of Sweden, the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, the Vice-President of the United States of America, Nelson Rockefeller among representatives of over 80 countries and around 700 guests. "


Apparently, it was a big event.

It was an historic event - the change to a constitutional monarchy from what was seen as a dictatorship. Countries rallied to support JC

4Pam 06-04-2014 10:40 PM

So what can we expect for the event? A little bummed that it won't be anything like the Netherlands.

Winnie 06-05-2014 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Pam (Post 1672498)
So what can we expect for the event? A little bummed that it won't be anything like the Netherlands.

Probably very low-keyed...like Belgium's maybe.

Duc_et_Pair 06-05-2014 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathia_sophia (Post 1672467)
Can someone explain better to me? There's the signing, Felipe needs to swear, proclamation ceremony, and more? I'm a bit confused here, I saw pictures of Queen Sofia wearing a pink dress & later a blue dress with mantilla.
Can someone explain to me what and how the ceremonies will be? Which ones? All in the same very day? If yes, that means a full pack day with schedules and changing clothes?
I'm so confused here, I need help ;)

Three Acts, like in Luxembourg 2000, Amsterdam 2013 and Brussels 2013:

Act 1
The King, Don Juan Carlos I, signs the Act of Abdication

Act 2
The new King, Don Felipe VI, affirms to maintain the Constitution. The Cortes prolaims him King of Spain

Act 3
At a later date, festive ceremonies involving the Armed Forces (parade), the Church (a Te Deum), and the citizens (festivities, fireworks)

That will be the rough schedule.

:flowers:

kathia_sophia 06-05-2014 03:28 AM

Thank you ANNIE_S for your explanation ;) and also to Duc_et_Pair.

ANNIE_S 06-05-2014 06:00 AM

I´m watching the Spanish TV and they are saying that there will be no mass and no foreign dignataries.

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 06:40 AM

Thanks Annie I didn't think there would be either.

lula 06-05-2014 07:07 AM

Zarzuela has confirmed that there will be no foreign guests, or mass.

Probably King Juan Carlos will officially sign his abdication at the Royal Palace.

King Felipe will be proclaimed at the Congress of Deputies, probably after the act, in front of the Congress he will receive military honors. After they will go to the Royal Palace to hold a reception.

feridekuru 06-05-2014 07:30 AM

It will be a big event. Is the ceremony Like the from netherland?

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feridekuru (Post 1672601)
It will be a big event. Is the ceremony Like the from netherland?

Low Key & nothing like the Dutch Ceremony.

No Foreign Guests and no Religious Ceremony ,it will be a Proclamation Ceremony before the Spanish Cortes (Parliament) ,the extended Royal Family might be present if were lucky!

wyevale 06-05-2014 07:52 AM

Seems a shame there will be no Mass.

Perhaps its time the Kings dropped the title 'Most Catholic Majesties' ?

lula 06-05-2014 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1672605)
Low Key & nothing like the Dutch Ceremony.

No Foreign Guests and no Religious Ceremony ,it will be a Proclamation Ceremony before the Spanish Cortes (Parliament) ,the extended Royal Family might be present if were lucky!

Probably the family of the King will be present at the signing of the abdication in the Royal Palace. But the proclamation in the Congress of Deputies, the space will be very limited, and therefore the number of guests reduced.

principessa 06-05-2014 07:58 AM

Do you think that Letizia's family will attend the ceremony?

sancakli70 06-05-2014 08:02 AM

It is the same like the belgium

Esmerelda 06-05-2014 08:14 AM

Hopefully we'll be able to follow over the internet!

Sent from my GT-N7105 using The Royals Community mobile app

Cory 06-05-2014 08:15 AM

Why do they refuse the Mass?If they are not Catholics anymore they should recognize it.

I hope the future Royal couple will attent anyway a Mass on the morning of that day.

ANNIE_S 06-05-2014 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esmerelda (Post 1672616)
Hopefully we'll be able to follow over the internet!

Sent from my GT-N7105 using The Royals Community mobile app

That´s one thing you can take for sure. Every Spanish TV channel will be broadcasting Live also on their web pages, I have any doubt about it ;)

There is almost anything else on the media since last Monday, I´ve never seen such a coverage of the RF events. Not even on F&L wedding.

lula 06-05-2014 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1672617)
Why do they refuse the Mass?If they are not Catholics anymore they should recognize it.

According to the Spanish Constitution, Spain is a country officially not confessional. Religion is a personal matter, from the Head of State to any normal citizen. Therefore, the proclamation of the new Head of State does not include any formal religious event.

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by principessa (Post 1672611)
Do you think that Letizia's family will attend the ceremony?

I'm sure we will know more over the next few days.

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1672617)
Why do they refuse the Mass?If they are not Catholics anymore they should recognize it.

Perhaps there wasn't enough time to organise a Mass and remember the expense of all the invited guests/security at a time when Spain cannot afford such ceremonies.

It seems practical enough just to have a Proclamation Ceremony under such economic circumstances.

ANNIE_S 06-05-2014 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lula (Post 1672621)
According to the Spanish Constitution, Spain is a country officially not confessional. Religion is a personal matter, from the Head of State to any normal citizen. Therefore, the proclamation of the new Head of State does not include any formal religious event.

And I think is quite right to do so. As private citizens they can have their religious ceremonies like weddings and Holy Communions or attend masses whenever they want to, but an institutional event like this one shouldn´t be accompanied by a mass, IMO of course.

The proclamation of KJC was during Franco´s dictatorship yet. Spain was a whole different country in many aspects, this being one of them, and we musn´t forget it.

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 08:38 AM

Hopefully we'll get to see the rarely seen Spanish Regalia at the Proclamation Ceremony!

lula 06-05-2014 10:55 AM

I think we have explained it perfectly, and certain absurd comments about Letizia, are out of place.

Spain is a country where church and State are separated according to the Constitution. Thus the proclamation of a new Head of State does not have religious elements.

La Moncloa. Part I Fundamental Rights and Duties [Spain/Constitution]

Section 16

Freedom of ideology, religion and worship of individuals and communities is guaranteed, with no other restriction on their expression than may be necessary to maintain public order as protected by law.

No one may be compelled to make statements regarding his or her ideology, religion or beliefs.

No religion shall have a state character. The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions

Winnie 06-05-2014 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lula (Post 1672679)
I think we have explained it perfectly, and certain absurd comments about Letizia, are out of place.

Spain is a country where church and State are separated according to the Constitution. Thus the proclamation of a new Head of State does not have religious elements.

La Moncloa. Part I Fundamental Rights and Duties [Spain/Constitution]

Section 16

Freedom of ideology, religion and worship of individuals and communities is guaranteed, with no other restriction on their expression than may be necessary to maintain public order as protected by law.

No one may be compelled to make statements regarding his or her ideology, religion or beliefs.

No religion shall have a state character. The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions

I did not realize that Spain also coveted that strict division of church and state. So I guess if a Mass was incorporated into the ceremony, they would actually be breaking the law. But, I am sure that a prayer will be permitted. Even in America, which is now extremely separate, a prayer is given over new president.

NoorMeansLight 06-05-2014 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1672406)
I looked up on the Web and here is a list of some of the foreign guests who attended the enthronement mass for King Juan Carlos in 1975:

" Inside the Church took their places the King and Queen of the Hellenes, Prince Rainier and Princess Grace of Monaco, the President of France and the President of the Federal Republic of Germany, the President of Ireland, the Grand-Master of the Order of Malta, the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Liège, the Prince Sidi Mohamed of Morocco, the Prince Bertil of Sweden, the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, the Vice-President of the United States of America, Nelson Rockefeller among representatives of over 80 countries and around 700 guests. "


Apparently, it was a big event.

Oh dear, I had no idea! Wish we had some pictures of the event or a video! :flowers:

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoorMeansLight (Post 1672710)
Oh dear, I had no idea! Wish we had some pictures of the event or a video! :flowers:

See this thread

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...5-a-37015.html

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 12:23 PM

Several posts and replies have been removed can we please move on,we understand not everyone is happy that there won't be a Religious Ceremony to mark King Felipe's Accession but blaming Letizia's influence is just juvenile .

Duc_et_Pair 06-05-2014 03:01 PM

Indeed. I did not hear the same complaints in Amsterdam and Brussels where also no religious ceremonies were held. King Willem-Alexander, King Philippe and King Felipe are all monarchs of secular states without any priviliged Faith and are King for ALL their citizens, no matter which faith, or no faith at all, they probably have.

So there will be an abdication ceremony, followed by the investiture and proclamation. It will look very much alike the Belgian ceremony: also there were no foreign guests, also there were no grand ceremonial events and also there were no grand festivities.

Jacknch 06-05-2014 04:59 PM

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the investiture of King Philippe and felt there was enough pomp and ceremony to it to keep me amazed for days afterwards. Obviously I am still on a high from King Willem-Alexander's inauguration - there was never a day like it!
For me, the abdication, proclamation and investiture of the new King of Spain will be just as amazing and an historical occasion, we simply don't see these things happen every day and I can't wait!

Duc_et_Pair 06-05-2014 05:19 PM

First of all, the King of Spain does not have the prefix "His Catholic Majesty". Secondly, the King is free, as any Spaniard, to attend Holy Mass or whatever religious service he wants. It is only not organized by the State as Spain is, like by far the most countries on the Continent, a strictly secular country.

Note that also after the Investitures of Grand Duke Henri (2000), King Willem-Alexander (2013) and King Philippe (2013) there were no religious services. The Prince of Monaco and his family did attend a Te Deum after his Investiture, which is on itself is an annual event linked to the Fête Nationale.

It is very well possible that Don Felipe goes to Holy Mass in the morning or the day before the Investiture to ask the Lord's blessing on his Reign. We simply do not know. There are fantastic chapels in the Spanish palaces which are at the disposal of the royal family.

Charlotte_Aster 06-05-2014 05:32 PM

:previous:Not to be pedantic, but:
According to the 1978 constitution The King may use the titles that were used by Alfonso XIII before his exile, which does include His Catholic Majesty. However, the royal decree that was published in 1978 stated that the King and the Queen were to be refered to as His/Her Majesty. And since the King does serve as the head of a secular state, being called Catholic Majesty wouldn't be in accordance with the rest of the state.

Monarchy of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

P.S. If this post is in the wrong thread, feel free to tranfer it to the Titles etc. thread. :flowers:

Ish 06-05-2014 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1672875)
First of all, the King of Spain does not have the prefix "His Catholic Majesty". Secondly, the King is free, as any Spaniard, to attend Holy Mass or whatever religious service he wants. It is only not organized by the State as Spain is, like by far the most countries on the Continent, a strictly secular country.


The King of Spain holds the title Catholic Majesty, but by a 1987 decree he does not use it, instead preferring His Majesty. Catholic Majesty is one of the traditional titles of the King of Spain.

tamta 06-05-2014 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANNIE_S (Post 1672626)
And I think is quite right to do so. As private citizens they can have their religious ceremonies like weddings and Holy Communions or attend masses whenever they want to, but an institutional event like this one shouldn´t be accompanied by a mass, IMO of course.

The proclamation of KJC was during Franco´s dictatorship yet. Spain was a whole different country in many aspects, this being one of them, and we musn´t forget it.

No, that's certainly not the case. If we view the matter from a purely egalitarian/equal rights perspective, then a monarchy is outdated and obsolete at the first place. Monarchy is an institution that by definition relies on modes of tradition -and religion is a vital pillar of that. In Spain Catholicism was always a foundational feature of national identity and a legitimizing basis of the monarchy. If they decide to dispose it, they might as well be next. It's just stupid.

tamta 06-05-2014 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1672883)
The King of Spain holds the title Catholic Majesty, but by a 1987 decree he does not use it, instead preferring His Majesty. Catholic Majesty is one of the traditional titles of the King of Spain.

Exactly. And the monarchy IS about tradition. Kings were always consecrated by some ecclesiastical ritual. If they can't do that now, at least attending a mass before the event would not hurt.

Mbruno 06-05-2014 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnie (Post 1672704)
I did not realize that Spain also coveted that strict division of church and state. So I guess if a Mass was incorporated into the ceremony, they would actually be breaking the law. But, I am sure that a prayer will be permitted. Even in America, which is now extremely separate, a prayer is given over new president.

I don't think the separation is as strict as, let's say, in the French republic for example. Spain still has a "concordat" with the Vatican that gives several privileges to the Catholic Church and the constitution says:

"The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions"

Note that the text mentions "other confessions" but singles out the "Catholic Church" specifically.

I am pretty sure no legal scholar in Spain would consider illegal or unconstitutional to hold a "Te Deum" mass to mark the sovereign's accession. I guess the issue really is not separation of Church and State, but not having a lavish, solemn investiture when the country is goung through hard economic times.

At least, that's my two cents.

kbk 06-05-2014 07:29 PM

IMO, considering recent economic downfall and the monarchy's frayed position in Spain, any lavish or a even a little bit pompous ceremony would be inappropriate.

Although the state is secular, the King himself and his family (as well as most of the Spaniards!) are Catholic, so there would be no damage for the state's constitutional and democratic wellbeing because of a bishop's presence at the inauguration, doing "his" sacred things ;) as with all previous Kings... The entire Spain (as well as the whole Western civilization) is based on the Christian tradition, especially such old and traditional institution as a monarchy, a Bourbon monarchy.

The Royal Family probably will celebrate the big change-of guard with a Catholic service anyway, either privately or in an official or semi-official event.

Of course, the King is head of state as a whole and in a modern sense, but his position is also traditionally and still, in some parts, a religious one, sacred one. From what or whom his or her (the monarch's) power comes? Because of what he or she becomes the monarch? Just signing the papers? Nah, there is still sth more than that.

lula 06-06-2014 03:20 AM

Really for me this discussion is becoming obsessive to some people, they seem to want to impose their religious views.

In Spain it has not provoked discussion, not even by the most ultraconservative sectors. It is understood that the Constitution is the principal lay governing the state, and therefore the Head of State should act accordingly.

One thing is the law, and other certain uses and traditions.

Most Spaniards are traditionally Catholic, and there is a social tradition in baptisms, weddings and funerals. Legally the title of His Catholic Majesty does not exist ... as it is not the king of Sardinia, Gibraltar or the Indies. Are titles that exist in the tradition, but for legal and real effects not worth anything.

But the Head of State, it must be of all Spaniards, of all religions, so that his proclamation is a civil act.

When Prince Felipe swore the Constitution at 18, there was no mass or religious elements. Franco's dictatorship was a time where church and state were united very strongly, Catholicism was imposed ... King Juan Carlos was proclaimed king still with those laws. But once the Constitution draws a distinction between Church and State, in acts like this they need to highlight it.

Rossina 06-06-2014 03:29 AM

So, they are not going to invite forign guests.

kathia_sophia 06-06-2014 03:44 AM

Oh my, why so much pressure on a religious act? I didn't see any people complain about it on King Phillippe and King WA's Inaugurations. Why is the Spanish Royal Family ALWAYS the target for all things?

The King of Spain is the King of all Spaniards, with religion or not. Remember, Spain still has a deep economical issue, according to this situation, it is pratical and respectfull that none lavish ceremony is held. Nowadays, people should respect and by not having a lavish ceremony and by having a civil one, simple and appropriate, is respecting the Spanish people, which most of them is having economical issues, some families struggle to feed their children. You think they will be very happy to see them full of jewels, with foreign guests, with massive security, etc.? Respect is needed.

Tradition is tradition, but in times like this, if they want the Monarchy to survive, they need to cope with the people, and be more like them and be foremost respectfull of them.

Rhys 06-06-2014 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossina (Post 1672991)
So, they are not going to invite forign guests.

Not to the act in the Congress, but an austere official reception in the Royal Palace for authorities (national & foreign) is planed to take place after the ceremony of proclamation.

So mainly national civilian and military representations and some foreign diplomats.

An Ard Ri 06-06-2014 04:06 AM

Please note that Religious Rants will not be tolerated and will be deleted without warning.

Thank You

Duc_et_Pair 06-06-2014 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1672883)
The King of Spain holds the title Catholic Majesty, but by a 1987 decree he does not use it, instead preferring His Majesty. Catholic Majesty is one of the traditional titles of the King of Spain.

We can address him with every historic, dynastic or pretended title we want but of course the only official style is which is used in all Acts, Decrees, Orders and Treaties as published in the Boletín Oficial del Estado. We can even call him King of Jerusalem, if we like. But the only official used title is Rey de España, eventually with the prefix Su Majestad.

:lol:

Stefan 06-06-2014 07:21 AM

Is it known if there will be an appearance at the Balcony of the Royal Palace.. It could be either after the abdication like in the Netherlands so that Juan Carlos could present Felipe as the new King or after the Ceremony in the Parliament.

Esmerelda 06-06-2014 08:06 AM

I assume the children will be there for part of the ceremonies?

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kathia_sophia 06-06-2014 08:12 AM

I think so to, Leonor and Sofia will be there for sure. I have doubts about Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina's children, but perhaps they'll be there, it's a very important event.

ANNIE_S 06-06-2014 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esmerelda (Post 1673071)
I assume the children will be there for part of the ceremonies?

Sent from my GT-N7105 using The Royals Community mobile app

Sure at the Parliament ceremony.

Don´t know about the abdication, though.

Noor Mariam 06-06-2014 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamta (Post 1672899)
Exactly. And the monarchy IS about tradition. Kings were always consecrated by some ecclesiastical ritual. If they can't do that now, at least attending a mass before the event would not hurt.

Exactly. At least, there are still people who can understand it.

TLLK 06-06-2014 11:56 AM

The SRF could opt for a private Mass to celebrate this day.

kathia_sophia 06-06-2014 12:09 PM

And people are still going on with the mass... time to move on, there won't be any. Many of us already said so, and explained why.

An Ard Ri 06-06-2014 12:37 PM

I don't believe the Spanish Bishops have a problem with this so lets move on!

¿Cómo se han tomado los obispos que no haya misa en la coronación de Felipe VI?

NoorMeansLight 06-07-2014 11:13 AM

I believe both girls should attend the inauguration.
And I'd also like to see Felipe's sisters by his side on that important day.

Cory 06-07-2014 12:43 PM

Maybe there is no Statement of the Catholic Bishops about the fact there will no Mass but the Spanish Catholic understood their King does not want to ask for God's blessing for his reign and he does not want to be considered as a Catholic King. It is time for the Spanish Catholics to think if they should continue to support such a King.

Isabella 06-07-2014 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1673654)
Maybe there is no Statement of the Catholic Bishops about the fact there will no Mass but the Spanish Catholic understood their King does not want to ask for God's blessing for his reign and he does not want to be considered as a Catholic King. It is time for the Spanish Catholics to think if they should continue to support such a King.

As the majority of Spanish Catholics are non-practicing (or seldom-practicing), I doubt there would be much of a fuss. Some of the native Spaniards on here I'm sure could provide better insight, but based on what I've been hearing about regarding the abdication, and based on my own experiences in Spain, it seems to me that having or not having a mass is probably not among the forefront of most people's concerns.

ANNIE_S 06-07-2014 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1673654)
Maybe there is no Statement of the Catholic Bishops about the fact there will no Mass but the Spanish Catholic understood their King does not want to ask for God's blessing for his reign and he does not want to be considered as a Catholic King. It is time for the Spanish Catholics to think if they should continue to support such a King.

Then, since the majority of the Spanish population is not practicing Catholic, I guess it´s way smarter from the new King pleasing them instead of the deeply religious grups.

So, still well done :lol:

Cris M 06-07-2014 01:24 PM

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't think King Felipe VI will need a public Mass to thank God for his ascension. He can thank God alone at the privacy of his room. Faith is not a question exihibition.

An Ard Ri 06-07-2014 01:27 PM

Its 2014 & not 1814,most ordinary Spaniard have much greater matters to worry about and I haven't seen any evidence of a public outcry!

ANNIE_S 06-07-2014 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1673675)
Its 2014 & not 1814,most ordinary Spaniard have much greater matters to worry about and I haven't seen any evidence of a public outcry!

Exactly. I´ve been raised Catholic myself and I really don´t understand why so many eople seem upset with this. For me it is absolutely understandable.

Even the most Catholic people in my family, like my grandmother, hadn´t even think about the Mass. They are (like we all are) more interested on what Felipe is going to say at his first speech as King than on a possible mass with foreign guests.

Blog Real 06-07-2014 02:32 PM

I wish Felipe, Letizia and the daughters acenassem from the balcony of the Royal Palace to the population on the day of enthronement.

lula 06-07-2014 02:50 PM

Cory, surely this will be a shock for you. :whistling:

The Episcopal Conference assumes that no mass in the proclamation of Felipe VI

The general secretary and spokesman for the Spanish Episcopal Conference, José María Gil Tamayo, has been framed within the "normal" of a secular State that the proclamation of King Felipe VI takes place without any religious act.

"In Spain of the XXI century the concept is different than in the coronation of King Juan Carlos, when there was still a state church and the Constitution had not been approved", he justified.

La Conferencia Episcopal asume que no haya misa en la proclamaci?n de Felipe VI

Moonmaiden23 06-07-2014 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLK (Post 1673166)
The SRF could opt for a private Mass to celebrate this day.

I hope so. Nothing invokes a sense of reverence, duty and respect like a cold, secular inauguration, no? Just leave God out of it and all will be well!

All sarcasm aside I am both saddened and confused by how eager people seem to be to cut out and suppress what has been, for better or worse- the second most defining institution in the history of Spain...the Roman Catholic Church.

Why must people in their never ending quest for what they feel is integration and "progress" abandon the things that make them special, who they are?

Would Spain still be Spain without it's monasteries, it's spectacular Cathedrals and it's identity as a Catholic country?

Don't be so quick to abandon it all for secularism and atheism. It's not all it's cracked up to be.:sad:

God bless and good luck to the new King and Queen but I have no interest at all in watching this "installation".

sophie25 06-07-2014 03:35 PM

Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize the majority of their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many, if not most, people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim,humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.

sophie25 06-07-2014 03:37 PM

Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many other people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.

Alison H 06-07-2014 03:38 PM

Oh :-(. I was looking forward to a nice big event!

Moonmaiden23 06-07-2014 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela (Post 1673719)
Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize the majority of their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many, if not most, people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim,humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.

Exactly. What difference does it make if most Spaniards have lost their faith and abandoned the Church? What has that to do with anything? The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

If you drop one, mark my words the other will soon follow.:sad:

The monarchy and the SRF need all the blessings they can possibly get, imo.

sophie25 06-07-2014 04:17 PM

I disagree that when people stop attending Church it automatically means they have abandoned faith. I myself rarely attend Church because the demands of the modern world make it difficult but I am a definite Catholic as far as I am concerned and so are my husband and children.

Cory 06-07-2014 04:34 PM

I hope the future King will attend a Mass in his private chapel before the civil ceremony of the accession.

carlota 06-07-2014 04:35 PM

i have no doubt that leonor and sofia will be present at least at some of the events of the inauguration

COUNTESS 06-07-2014 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1673714)
I hope so. Nothing invokes a sense of reverence, duty and respect like a cold, secular inauguration, no? Just leave God out of it and all will be well!

All sarcasm aside I am both saddened and confused by how eager people seem to be to cut out and suppress what has been, for better or worse- the second most defining institution in the history of Spain...the Roman Catholic Church.

Why must people in their never ending quest for what they feel is integration and "progress" abandon the things that make them special, who they are?

Would Spain still be Spain without it's monasteries, it's spectacular Cathedrals and it's identity as a Catholic country?

Don't be so quick to abandon it all for secularism and atheism. It's not all it's cracked up to be.:sad:

God bless and good luck to the new King and Queen but I have no interest at all in watching this "installation".

No one said anything about atheism. Spain, as many nations have a separation of church and state, which is a good way to run a nation. The Dutch installed their wonderful King Willem-Alexander and the Belgians installed their wonderful King Phillipe, without any religious ceremonies and all works well. There is no need to stuff a specific belief in anyone's face any longer. Each can believe what they will. The king represents them all. Separation of church and state in quite important, it is part of the foundation of my nation.

ANNIE_S 06-07-2014 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1673729)
Exactly. What difference does it make if most Spaniards have lost their faith and abandoned the Church? What has that to do with anything? The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

If you drop one, mark my words the other will soon follow.:sad:

The monarchy and the SRF need all the blessings they can possibly get, imo.

Most Spaniards, Catholic or not, practicing or not, prefer not mixing up religion and State, and this is the most State affair that can exist. I don´t know why it is so difficult to understand.

He can have a private religious ceremony if he wants to, but it isn´t going to be an official one. In other words, no Spaniard is going to be forced to attend or see a ceremony of a religion he doesn´t feel belong to in order to see the new king proclamation. No way.

The king must be the king of every Spaniard, not only Catholics. There are agnostic Spaniards, atheist Spaniards, Muslim Spaniards...and all them have the right to belong to this country.

You really can´t compare the situation in UK, where the Head of State is also the Head of the Anglican Church, with a country like Spain where nobody, not even within the RF is forced to belong to a religion. The RF is Catholic because they want to, but they´re not forced to be so. It is not the case, but if Felipe wasn´t Catholic he still would be the rightful king of Spain. It is not the case, but if F&L were not married by the church but only civil married, she still would be the rightful queen of Spain because only the civil laws matter on the State charges, not the Catholic ones.

We don´t even know if they will have a private mass the next day that we won´t see, that can perfectly be. But there is not going to be a mass as a part of the festivities.

Isabella 06-07-2014 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela (Post 1673721)
Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many other people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.

I don't think it's that people are saying they shouldn't have some sort of Mass, it just seems like the decision has already been made, and some people are okay with the fact that they've decided not to have one. I don't know that much of an issue has been made of it in Spain at all, and that's where it matters most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1673729)
Exactly. What difference does it make if most Spaniards have lost their faith and abandoned the Church? What has that to do with anything? The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

If you drop one, mark my words the other will soon follow.:sad:

The monarchy and the SRF need all the blessings they can possibly get, imo.

Not that I'm in favor of secularizing monarchies or anything, but often such historical links have lead to a more secular population. In the case of Felipe's installment, whether or not a mass is held is going to have little effect on the faith of the population - and if he is religious himself, I'm sure he can find a way to worship in a private way, if he wishes. I'm religious myself, and think a religious ceremony would always be nice, but shouldn't be forced out of some sense of duty, because then I think it can just end up being a bit hollow. (I hope I've made sense - it's certainly a complex issue in general, and one on which I can understand multiple perspectives, but I'm trying to keep it brief.)

An Ard Ri 06-07-2014 06:35 PM

Huge security operation for the proclamation of King Felipe

! Spanish News Today - Huge Security Operation For Proclamation Of The New King Of Spain

Alondra 06-09-2014 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANNIE_S (Post 1672473)
I feel strange explaining these things, because nothing is really official yet so I feel like I could be giving you wrong information and messing things even more :ermm:, but still...

About King Juan Carlos proclamation: the event where Sofia wears the hot pink dress was the day of the proclamation. There were no foreign guest at that ceremony.

The event where she wears the blue dress with mantilla was the Te Deum (mass) at San Jerónimo´s church. That was a different day, short after the proclamation, and there were many foreign guest that can be seen in the video posted by An Ard Ri. Afterwards, they went to the Royal Palace and had a balcony appearance (I assume there was a reception/lunch/dinner too).

What we can expect similar to this on Felipe´s proclamation:

Well, the ceremony of proclamation at the Parliament should be quite similar. We don´t know yet about the protocol, but uniforms/morning dress for men and long dress (no tiara and no orders) for ladies like that occasion is quite possible.

Before that ceremony can take place, King Juan Carlos must "stop being king", so he has to signed the Organic Law destined to that (that Law is what the parliament is now preparing and will be ready on June 18th, after the approvals of both Congress and Senate). According to the most recent information, that would take place in a short ceremony the same day that the proclamation, quite probably at the Royal Palace of Madrid (similar to the Dutch abdication). After that happens, Felipe will be already King of Spain, but he has to be inmediately sworn at the Parliament-and it is then when they will go to the Parliament and the ceremony of proclamation takes place.

Since everything happens the same day (probably the same morning), I don´t think we´ll see different clothes from one event to another.

And we are guessing that there will not be foreign guests that day, so if there is going to be some kind of mass, party or reception in order to receiving foreign dignataries, that will be on a different day like it happened with KJC and QS.

Hope this helps ;)

Annie, I think you've done a wonderful job explaining JC proclamation and what to expect with Felipe's. Our monarchy is pretty austere when it comes to ceremonial - we are more about political governance than royal pageantry.

In relation to those asking for a lack of mass, Spain’s article 16.3 of the Constitution states that religious confession can’t be part of the estate. When Juan Carlos swore his own proclamation he did so under Franco’s laws at a time when there was no separation of church and estate. Felipe’s swearing as Prince of Asturias was a secular ceremony, and so will be this one.

Duc_et_Pair 06-09-2014 02:51 AM

I think your monarchy is quite spectacular when it comes to ceremony. Yesterday I saw the ceremonies for the Fallen at the Plaza de Lealtad in Madrid, it was all very beautiful, colourful and perfectly organized. The royal residences in Spain are unbelievably grand and impressive. The ceremonial for Ambassadors offering their Letters of Credence to the King, is one of the most impressive in the world.

Picture: an Ambassador arrives at the Royal Palace in Madrid, source: guardiareal.org
https://www.guardiareal.org/Galerias/...jad_grande.jpg

Duc_et_Pair 06-09-2014 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1673729)
The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

There is one major difference: Spain, but also the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, etc. are secular states. This means: the State has no religion. All citizens are free to practize a religion, or have no Faith at all, the State observes a neutrality.

The King of Spain (or of the Netherlands, or of Belgium, or of Sweden, etc.) are head of that secular state and are, like all citizens, free to practize a religion (or not). The Investiture of His Majesty however, is no religious ceremony but a civil act.

In the United Kingdom, the Church of England still has a privileged position as state church. The King of England still is the supreme governor of that Church. Archbishops and bishops from the Church of England reside in Parliament. The Church of England enjoys privileges other Churches do not have.

Note that King Felipe VI is absolutely free to attend Holy Mass or another religious activity. We have so often seen members of the Spanish royal family attending religious events. But THIS ceremony is purely based on the conditions laid down by the Constitution of Spain. That Constitution says that the King needs to make an allegation before Parliament and then is proclaimed before the Nation.

In Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Spain, all references to God have been scrapped from legal documents. In the Netherlands, where the same secularization has happened, the Government understands that it is maybe better to do the same, but they see it as "historic patrimonium" and have maintained these formulas.

So Willem-Alexander concluded his oath with: "So help me God Almighty!". His Laws start with the formula: "We, Willem-Alexander, by the grace of God King of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Etc. Etc. Etc." or he writes formal letters to Parliament ending with: "And herewith We command You in the Lord's holy protection". On Dutch coins of 2 Euro still the motto "God Be With Us" can be read. Purists in Parliament want to remove these. Successive secular Governments have decided to keep these old formulas purely as unharmful tradition, not meaning that the State has a religion indeed.

:flowers:

Alondra 06-09-2014 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1674362)
There is one major difference: Spain, but also the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, etc. are secular states. This means: the State has no religion. All citizens are free to practize a religion, or have no Faith at all, the State observes a neutrality.

The King of Spain (or of the Netherlands, or of Belgium, or of Sweden, etc.) are head of that secular state and are, like all citizens, free to practize a religion (or not). The Investiture of His Majesty however, is no religious ceremony but a civil act.

In the United Kingdom, the Church of England still has a privileged position as state church. The King of England still is the supreme governor of that Church. Archbishops and bishops from the Church of England reside in Parliament. The Church of England enjoys privileges other Churches do not have.

Note that King Felipe VI is absolutely free to attend Holy Mass or another religious activity. We have so often seen members of the Spanish royal family attending religious events. But THIS ceremony is purely based on the conditions laid down by the Constitution of Spain. That Constitution says that the King needs to make an allegation before Parliament and then is proclaimed before the Nation.

In Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Spain, all references to God have been scrapped from legal documents. In the Netherlands, where the same secularization has happened, the Government understands that it is maybe better to do the same, but they see it as "historic patrimonium" and have maintained these formulas.

So Willem-Alexander concluded his oath with: "So help me God Almighty!". His Laws start with the formula: "We, Willem-Alexander, by the grace of God King of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Etc. Etc. Etc." or he writes formal letters to Parliament ending with: "And herewith We command You in the Lord's holy protection". On Dutch coins of 2 Euro still the motto "God Be With Us" can be read. Purists in Parliament want to remove these. Successive secular Governments have decided to keep these old formulas purely as unharmful tradition, not meaning that the State has a religion indeed.

:flowers:

Superb post. Thanks.

PrincessofEurope 06-10-2014 10:09 AM

I hope they release new formal portraits of the couple - in day wear and also tiara and orders. A nice of the Infantas as well with their parents to mark the occassion.

Tilia C. 06-10-2014 10:39 AM

New portraits would be nice indeed. There really should be at least one formal portrait of the new king and queen in gala wear with tiara and orders. It has never been done for the Asturias couple.

I don't think that they will highlight the Infantas. The NOOS case is still too fresh.

Spheno 06-10-2014 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilia C. (Post 1674777)
New portraits would be nice indeed. There really should be at least one formal portrait of the new king and queen in gala wear with tiara and orders. It has never been done for the Asturias couple.

I don't think that they will highlight the Infantas. The NOOS case is still too fresh.

little Infantas :smile:

Tilia C. 06-10-2014 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spheno (Post 1674783)
little Infantas :smile:

:rofl:Stupid me!

Mbruno 06-11-2014 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1673747)
I hope the future King will attend a Mass in his private chapel before the civil ceremony of the accession.

Prince Felipe got married in a public Catholic ceremony. It was not a private event at the palace's chapel, but rather a state event with foreign heads of state and government in attendance. The 1979 Spanish constitution was already in force back then, but no one claimed a public religious wedding for the heir apparent and his bride would be unconstitutional.

I don't see why a public thanksgiving mass to mark the new Spanish king's accession would be any different now. Franly, I think the Spanish government is making a mistake.

Of course, a thanksgiving mass does not exclude or replace the secular proclamation ceremony in the Cortes as mandated by the constitution, in the same way Prince Felipe's religious wedding ceremony was no substitute for a civil marriage as required by law. In Belgium, for example, which is also a secular state, King Philippe took the constitutional oath in Parliament as the Belgian constitution requires, but also attended a Te Deum mass at the Brussels cathedral before that. There was no controversy, as there appears to be now in Spain.

Jacknch 06-11-2014 05:32 PM

King Juan Carlos abdication: 'Austere coronation' is wasted opportunity say royalists - Telegraph


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