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-   -   Letters Patent Issued (Dec 31, 2012): All Cambridge Children to be Princes/Princesses (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f269/letters-patent-issued-dec-31-2012-all-cambridge-children-to-be-princes-princesses-34382.html)

Dman 01-09-2013 01:26 PM

Queen issues formal decree to guarantee princess title if Duchess of Cambridge has a girl - Telegraph

Kit 01-09-2013 01:36 PM

Wait a moment it says "all the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales". Does this Letters Patent then only apply to Prince William's children or automatically also to future generations like his grandchildren?

Artemisia 01-09-2013 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg (Post 1503259)
...
George V limited the 1898 Letters Patent grant to the eldest son only when he issued the 1917 Letters Patent, but now The Queen has restored the provision to all the children.

The change is or William's children only though, isn't it? That is to say, in future the younger children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales would still not be Princes and Princesses or Royal Highnesses until and unless new Letters Patent are issued.

While we are there, I have always found the wording of the 1917 Letters Patent interesting.: if the Heir Apparent hasn't been created The Prince of Wales and is still the Duke of Cornwall, then does that mean his eldest son will not be a Prince? I assume the Prince of Wales clause was added for the eldest son of the Heir Apparent who is not the Sovereign's eldest surviving son himself.

Kit 01-09-2013 01:47 PM

I also think this applies specifically to Prince William's children.It could get quite complicated in the future if the Equal Primogeniture gets through and William and Kate have a daughter followed by a younger brother.


When Prince William is created the Prince of Wales with his eldest child being a daughter his grandchildren would not bear the title Prince/Princess unless a new LP would be issued.
But what about his grandchildren through his eldest son ? They would bear the title.

Princess Luna 01-09-2013 01:54 PM

If they having a girl, will she be Princess of Wales or Cambrigde?

Artemisia 01-09-2013 02:04 PM

:previous:
Depends on when William's daughter is born.
- If the girl is born during the current reign, she'll be Princess Name of Cambridge.
- If she is born during Charles' reign but before William is created The Prince of Wales, she'll be Princess Name of Cornwall and Cambridge.
- If she is born during Charles' reign and after William is created The Prince of Wales, she'll be Princess Name of Wales.
- If she is born during William's own reign, she'll be The Princess Name.

A girl to William and Kate can be a Princess of Wales only in one case: if she becomes one in her own right. Technically speaking, there is actually no law forbidding a woman to be a Princess of Wales in her own right; if William's first-born is a girl and she becomes Heiress Apparent in due course (once the proposed Equal Primogeniture laws are adopted), then when William becomes King, he can create his eldest daughter and heiress The Princess of Wales.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kit (Post 1503318)
Wait a moment it says "all the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales". Does this Letters Patent then only apply to Prince William's children or automatically also to future generations like his grandchildren?

I'm pretty sure only the children of the eldest son of the current Prince of Wales are meant.

The Letters Patent applies only to William's children. If William's grandchildren are born during the Queen's reign (highly improbable but theoretically possible), then they would not be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses unless new Letters Patent are issued. If William's grandchildren are born during Charles' reign, they would also not be entitled to princely title and style of a Royal Highness, again unless new Letters Patent are issued (which, if this scenario were to take place, is extremely likely).

hkittybaby 01-09-2013 02:39 PM

The Queen declares future Royal daughter of Duke and Duchess will be a Princess! (But we still don't know if it will be a boy or a girl) | Mail Online

Stefan 01-09-2013 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemisia (Post 1503333)
I'm pretty sure only the children of the eldest son of the current Prince of Wales are meant.

The Letters Patent applies only to William's children. If William's grandchildren are born during the Queen's reign (highly improbable but theoretically possible), then they would not be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses unless new Letters Patent are issued. If William's grandchildren are born during Charles' reign, they would also not be entitled to princely title and style of a Royal Highness, again unless new Letters Patent are issued (which, if this scenario were to take place, is extremely likely).

I don't think so. It would have to be stated to this effect. If during Charles reign William becames a grandfather through this oldest son then hid children would be affected by this Letters patent as then he is the Prince of Wales (if he is created as such).
The Letters Patent doesn't say that only the children of the oldest son of the present Prince of Wales are meant.

Sister Morphine 01-09-2013 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemisia (Post 1503319)
The change is or William's children only though, isn't it? That is to say, in future the younger children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales would still not be Princes and Princesses or Royal Highnesses until and unless new Letters Patent are issued.

While we are there, I have always found the wording of the 1917 Letters Patent interesting.: if the Heir Apparent hasn't been created The Prince of Wales and is still the Duke of Cornwall, then does that mean his eldest son will not be a Prince? I assume the Prince of Wales clause was added for the eldest son of the Heir Apparent who is not the Sovereign's eldest surviving son himself.

I'm not sure, but I would be comfortable in speculating that this is going to be the norm from now on, seeing as equal primogeniture has been adopted. From the wording of the document, it sounded to me like in the future, all children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales will be HRH Prince/Princess, instead of just the eldest son being HRH Prince ______. As for your second question, if William is the Duke of Cornwall but not yet the Prince of Wales, that means his father is King and as such, all of his kids, as grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line, will be HRH Prince/Princess regardless. The 1917 Letters Patent no longer apply. George V wanted to downsize the number of people who carried the HRH Prince/Princess title (and did away with great-grandchildren in the male line being HH Prince/Princess), so it was limited to just those in direct line to the throne; the children of the sovereign, the grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line, and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Luna (Post 1503327)
If they having a girl, will she be Princess of Wales or Cambrigde?

Seeing as the Queen doesn't appear to be on her deathbed, the child will be born during the current reign. Thus, the baby would be HRH Prince/Princess _____ of Cambridge. The senior most title is what the children would carry. If the Queen did not make him a duke on his wedding day, they would be "of Wales" as that would be his only title. When the Queen dies, and William immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall, that child and any other children they'd have at that point, would become HRH Prince/Princess ________ of Cornwall and Cambridge, with Cornwall as the senior most title coming first. Then if William is made Prince of Wales, they'd be HRH Prince/Princess ______ of Wales, just like William and Harry were when they were born.

EIIR 01-09-2013 02:54 PM

A necessary bit of housekeeping from HM. I think 'Prince George of Cambridge' sounds quite nice.

sophie25 01-09-2013 03:18 PM

If Harry's kids are born during Charles' reign will they be prince/princess? I read somewhere things were getting changed so they would just be lord/lady.

HRHHermione 01-09-2013 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela (Post 1503357)
If Harry's kids are born during Charles' reign will they be prince/princess? I read somewhere things were getting changed so they would just be lord/lady.

If Harry's kids are born during Charles' reign, they are automatically prince/princess as children of the son of the monarch.

I honestly don't see any reason why that should change. Now, if Harry wishes, he can have his children styled with a lesser title, like the Wessex family has chosen to do, but that's up to Harry and his future wife.

NGalitzine 01-09-2013 03:23 PM

As things currently stand as male line granchildren of the monarch Harry's children would be HRH Prince or Princess if born during the reign of Charles III. All these things are of course subject to change.

Iluvbertie 01-09-2013 03:37 PM

As William was promoted from a commoner Prince to a peer Duke on his wedding day Catherine is known as The Duchess - the wife of a peer - rather than Princess William - the wife of a commoner.

The only wife of a HRH Prince to use the style of Princess is Princess Michael - the lowest ranked of all those wives because the others have more senior titles to use.

The current Duchess of Gloucester started her married life as Princess Richard of Gloucester but then her father-in-law died and she became The Duchess of Gloucester.

Princess is the default position for a wife whose husband has nothing better to offer - such as being a peer.

As for the new LPs - I note that they apply to the 'eldest son of the Prince of Wales' which to me means that the next time this happens and the heir is a girl they will have to be issued again to cover that possibility.

I think issuing the LPs this early in the pregnancy suggests that she has done this to cover the possibility of a girl not that she knows that it is - particualarly as they were issued at the 3 month or so mark of the preganancy.

I don't see any need for new LPs to cover any children of Harry. They will probably be following the styling of Edward and not using the HRH anyway, even if entitled to do so - particularly given the negative press that Beatrice and Eugenie get for having it even though they are the children of the second son - the same position that Harry's future children will be in at some time in the future - the children of the second son. Of course he first of all has to find a woman who wants to marry him, give up her career, her privacy and live in the straightjacket of the royal family.

branchg 01-09-2013 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kataryn (Post 1503296)
I guess we all realise that the Cambridges already know if it is going to be a child or twins...

I think The Queen would have issued the same Letters Patent regardless of whether Catherine may be carrying twins. Prior to 1917, the children of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales enjoyed the rank of HRH under Letters Patent issued in 1898 by Queen Victoria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kit (Post 1503318)
Wait a moment it says "all the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales". Does this Letters Patent then only apply to Prince William's children or automatically also to future generations like his grandchildren?

The change is applicable to all future children of the eldest son of a Prince of Wales. If it was limited to William only, the LP would be worded differently "all children of HRH Prince William, The Duke of Cambridge, etc.".

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela (Post 1503357)
If Harry's kids are born during Charles' reign will they be prince/princess? I read somewhere things were getting changed so they would just be lord/lady.

Currently, they would. But I predict they will not hold royal rank and use the style of children of a Duke ("Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor"), similar to James and Louise Wessex.

GracieGiraffe 01-09-2013 04:02 PM

Oh, thank heavens! I was so afraid we were going to have another "Lady Diana" come July 1st ......:eek:

Artemisia 01-09-2013 04:03 PM

A silly question but please do remember English is not my first language.

If the Letters Patent meant all children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales from now on, wouldn't the wording be "children of the eldest son of a Prince of Wales" and not "children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales"? Doesn't the latter imply a specific (current) Prince of Wales?

GracieGiraffe 01-09-2013 04:05 PM

I think it means from now on from the wording and now just Will but I guess I'd have to look at the wording of other Letters Patent to be clear.
If it were just Will I think she'd say all children born to the Duke of Cambridge.

Stefan 01-09-2013 04:11 PM

The Wording of the 1917 LP was also the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales and not a Prince of Wales.

Artemisia 01-09-2013 04:14 PM

I see. Thanks Stefan and GracieGiraffe. :smile:

Based on the wording, I have to change my opinion and agree with those who think the changes will be applicable to the children of all eldest sons of the Princes of Wales in future, unless and until new Letters Patent are issued.


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