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Julia 05-05-2003 12:13 AM

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MONACO - MAY 3: Princess Caroline of Hanover attends the 36th International Bunch Contest to open the 6th Flower Show known as "Reveries sur les Jardins" May 3, 2003 in Monaco.

All photos from: alloverpress

Alexandria 05-05-2003 04:44 PM

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... What is with Ernst August's pants?! He reminds me of a big tube of French's mustard!

Julia 05-05-2003 05:02 PM

I'll bet they're cords, too! :woot:

ficciones 05-06-2003 06:03 PM

In response to galisteo's question about the use of German and Austrian titles, here is a Web site: The German Nobility

This is the relevant quote: "Since 1919, according to the German republican government, the nobility no longer exists as a legal entity. Nevertheless, the titles and noble designations of the nobility have not been abolished, as they have in Austria, and may still be carried. Legally they are now merely parts of the family name and in theory convey no status. "

I could be wrong, but I was rather under the impression that Caroline's new Hanoverian title is far grander than her Monagesque title.

Julia 05-06-2003 06:14 PM

Hi galisteo and ficciones,

I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that Caroline is referred to as: Princess Ernst-August. Just as Marie-Chantal is called Princess Pavlos. The wife takes the husband's name. Another example would be Prince Philip's mum. She was Princess Andrew of Greece.

Um, I believe that Caroline is HRH Princess Ernst-August. So, she outranks all of her family members except for her father (I read) because he is a sovereign prince.

Jacqueline 05-06-2003 09:03 PM

I think that the Hanover name is very presitigious socially these days, but in theory, wouldn't Caroline's rank as a Serene Highness of Monaco be greater than that of her husband even though she takes his name? After all, her family is reigning and her father is a Head of State and reigning Sovereign.

ficciones 05-06-2003 09:40 PM

Ernst has a nifty set of titles. If I have it correctly, he is HRH the prince of Hanover, duke of Brunswick and Lüneburg, and prince of Great Britain and Ireland. If Queen Victoria had not been born, Ernst would today be the king of England as he is descended from Victoria's uncle, the duke of Cumberland.

I am no expert, but I believe that Ernst as the head of the family (i.e. the prince as opposed to a prince) might outrank Rainier and certainly outranks Caroline. That might explain why, as Julia pointed out, Caroline is referred to as Princess Ernst of Hanover rather than by her Christian name.

Would be interesting to hear from anyone who is an expert...

Alexandria 05-06-2003 10:06 PM

I am no expert, but a lot of what ficciones rings familiar with what I've read. Prince Ernst's hereditary ties to Great Britain makes him out rank both Prince Ranier and Princess Caroline, despite the fact that Monaco's monarchy is still ruling unlike the Hanover monarchy. I read too in a Vanity Fair article about Caroline and Ernst (following the infamous peeing incident in Turkey after which Ernst was declared persona non grata by many royal families) that he technically had to ask permission of Queen Elizabeth II to marry Carolline (he did not).

He is in fact in line to the British throne, though quite far back - we are talking about being after the Duke of Kent and his family, Prince Michael and his family, so he is probably like 100 in line to the throne or some ridiculous number like that.

Julia 05-06-2003 11:47 PM

In Taraborrelli's new book "Once Upon A Time" there is clarification in regards to Caroline's status in European royalty.

Eventhough her father is the soverign prince of ruling principality status of HRH outranks HSH. So, my guess (could be totally off), in agreement with ficciones, is that Ernst outranks Rainier.

Upon marrying Ernst Caroline, of course, became Princess of Hanover - a distinction that carries with it the title of Her Royal Highness. This, naturally, outranks her previous title of Her Serene Highness (I'm not sure if Taraborrelli is correct in saying that HSH was Caroline's previous title. I believe she is HRH Princess Ernst August of Hanover and HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco (because she was born with the title).

Taraborrelli maintains that after she married Ernst she became: "Her Royal Highness, Caroline, Princess of Hanover, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneberg. She now outranked everyone in her family except her father, the Prince."

So, my guess is that she is referred to as Princess Ernst August or Princess of Hanover but notice it is not Princess Caroline of Hanover. She is HRH, Caroline, Princess of Hanover, Duchess, etc..

I don't believe that she relinquished her title of HSH. I could be wrong but I seriously doubt that she did. Does anyone else know?

So if you were to rank who had the upperhand title wise my guess is that it would look as follows...

1. HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover
2. HSH Prince Rainier of Monaco (Sovereign Prince)
3. HRH Princess Ernst August, or HRH, Caroline, Princess of Hanover
4. HSH Prince Albert of Monaco (Heir Apparent)
5. HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneburg

Or would Alexandra outrank Albert? I wouldn't think so because she is the youngest child of Ernst and therefore her eldest brother (is it Ernst or Christian??) would because he is the heir apparent to Ernst August. :blink:

I may be totally off on this alltogether! :huh:

Benn 05-07-2003 12:18 PM

Ernst is not a prince of Great Britain, his ancestor the duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale was because he was the son of George III, and George V because of being a grandson.
They were striped of that title after WWI by the british royal family, and the other duchies dont exist anymore although they still use them.
The thing about germany is true, you can still use those titles but they are just part of your name.
They take that nobility thing very seriously there.
He belongs to the Uradel (high nobility) but maybe his sons wont because his previous wife wasn't a noble (now they belong to the briefadel Low nobilty), and caroline has a lower rank.
She can be addressed as HRH because of the marriage, and they both outrank the other monaco royals.
A sovereing prince outranks anyother prince, so Rainier outranks all of the european heirs and heiressess.
In the case of Ernst he isn't really a prince because the Kingdom of hanover ended when Prussia took those lands in it's possessions in 1866, they are still dukes of Braunschweig-Lüneburg.
He is in the line of succession to he british throne but is well after number 1400 or 4000, I don't remenber, I think is 4000 something.
In the case of rainier and ernst is difficult to know because they are both head of house, but like I said he isn't really prince and Rainier is still reigning.

Benn 05-07-2003 01:41 PM

I forgat, Roman Catholic descendants and descendants who are married to a Roman Catholic are excluded from the list of succession.

ficciones 05-07-2003 02:19 PM

Benn is absolutely right about the Hanovers (or whatever their family name might be) being stripped of their British titles circa World War I. For some reason I thought they'd gotten them back in the 1950s. Mea culpa.

Just for clarification, my note about Ernst's claim to the British throne was an exercise in a pretty big "what if" -- if Victoria had not been born, following the next line of descent to the present would bring us to Ernst, or so I've read. I hadn't meant to infer that Ernst was at all a factor in the actual line of succession. Just that in the galaxy of German nobility his star shines brightly.

Naturally, the fact that Rainier still rules his principality makes his title more relevant in practice than Ernst's. Which is why I suppose it was so interesting to me that news reports referred to Caroline's marriage as a step up for her. Protocol and rank are strange animals.

Interesting discussion.

elektraking 05-07-2003 02:27 PM

Yes Benn you are right. So when Ernst married Caroline his rights to the British throne were transfered to his sons. And before marrying Caroline, he did receive a permission from the Queen.
I think that he is 47th in the line for the British throne. One of the reasons to be so far in the succession is because of the Turkish pavilion accident. B)

elektraking 05-07-2003 02:30 PM

Think about that if Germany becames a monarchy, prince Ernst of Hannover would be a king.

Julia 05-07-2003 02:34 PM

So, is Taraborrelli incorrect in his statements about Caroline outranking her siblings (Albert)? I would have thought that apart from her father, because he is a sovereign prince, she and Ernst would outrank Albert, etc...because they are Their Royal Highnesses... :blink: :unsure:

ficciones 05-07-2003 03:18 PM

The book -- especially with a claim like Caroline now outranking her siblings -- must have been fact-checked. Probably a reliable source.

It's all enough to make one dizzy, no?

Julia 05-07-2003 03:20 PM

very dizzying... :wacko: Interesting but dizzying.

Jacqueline 05-07-2003 03:22 PM

Yes, I have been following this discussion, and I must say that I am thoroughly confused. :blink: :wacko:

Benn 05-07-2003 03:45 PM

I read somewhere that she does indeed outrank her sibblings.
I am pretty sure that Ernst is 4000 something, i saw it somewhere in fact you can look at this pages.

I don't remenber the other one.

He did ask for permission of the Queen, he still thinks of himself as part of that family.

Benn 05-07-2003 03:58 PM

He could be King if victoria had not existed, and he still may be.
Some people say that Victoria wasn't really a grandaughter of George III, because of the illness that runs in the family neophilia??? or something, the same thing that the son of the last Czar of Russia had.
It can only be transmitted by men o women, I don't remenber very well what the thing is, but it puts in doubt her paternity.
Some people say that she wasn't really the daughter of the Duke of Kent because of that, and because her mother had affairs with women (a very close friend) and men.
There is a book about Victoria, it talks about a very close friend of her mother a Lord or count or earl, something.
He may be the real father.

I dont't know , I'm just saying!!!!

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