The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Family (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f269/)
-   -   Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Family: Married Life (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f269/duke-and-duchess-of-cambridge-and-family-married-life-30891.html)

Duchess 04-29-2011 03:20 PM

Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Family: Married Life
 
it occured to me that william and catherine remind me very much of the king george and the queen mother. the QM was very supportive of her husband. i get a sense that catherine will be the same way. not sure what's made me feel like this. does anyone else get that feeling?

Lenora 04-29-2011 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess (Post 1244624)
it occured to me that william and catherine remind me very much of the king george and the queen mother. the QM was very supportive of her husband. i get a sense that catherine will be the same way. not sure what's made me feel like this. does anyone else get that feeling?

In a way,I agree.They seem to make a very good match:William's sensibility towards people and Kate's strong will .I am pretty sure this couple will overcome all the difficulties and have a strong marriage based on friendship and reciprocal support

Nahla10 04-29-2011 03:30 PM

Actually I think it will be more like William will be very supportive to Catherine to make sure the tradegy happened to his Mom won't repeat.

PrincessKaimi 04-29-2011 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess (Post 1244624)
it occured to me that william and catherine remind me very much of the king george and the queen mother. the QM was very supportive of her husband. i get a sense that catherine will be the same way. not sure what's made me feel like this. does anyone else get that feeling?

I do get the same sense. Kate's main approach seems to be to want to make Will happy, and then, to be a kindly and honorable person in relationship to teh people. She's unpretentious, comes from a family that is probably more "family like" in the normal sense, like the QM did. The QM was probably a bit more ready for the world stage, having grown up in an actual aristocratic household - and having gone through WW1 as she did, already focused on helping people.

But I'm hoping that Kate has many more years before she has to step into the Queen role, and that when she does become Queen, that the two of them have many more years together as reigning monarchs than Bertie and the QM.

Iluvbertie 04-29-2011 11:47 PM

I hope that this couple have at least 35 years of married life together, to enjoy being parents and to stay in the background, before they have to take over the burdens of monarchy.

I wouldn't even be surprised if William extends his time in the military to facilitate a lower key lifestyle.

maryshawn 04-30-2011 12:13 AM

I truly think this couple will succeed (no pun intended; seriously!) They have maturity, friendship, kindness, consideration and shared goals for their future. I have to commend the Royal Family: It's clearly realized--and corrected--mistakes made in the past. I read--don't know if true--in one of the Royal Marriage special editions the Queen has mandated royals will marry people they've known at least five years. It blows my mind, frankly (and I thought I'd known a lot about Diana) that she and Prince Charles had only met 13 times prior to their marriage!!

The QM was supportive of her husband. I have read bios of QE and prior to becoming Queen she too was very supportive of her husband--essentially being a navy wife and letting Phillip get on with his naval career whilst she stayed in the background doing very normal things. Kate has reportedly said she has no plans to compete with PW and will do all she can to ensure the media focuses as much--if not more--on her husband than her. She doesn't want the media to make her into the superstar at the expense of PW. The sentiment is terrific. I just hope the media allows it. Face it, at the end of the day, I want to see and hear about what Kate is doing, wearing--particularly in this initial "learning phase." I don't see the media letting her fade into the background anytime soon.

Island Princess 04-30-2011 12:23 AM

I think she will need to make a very concerted effort to avoid being made into a superstar. I think as long as they remain in love and generally happy in their marriage it won't be given the chance to dominate. It seemed to me that the media coverage of Diana really became a problem once the Wales' were fighting and competing - before the public were aware of it - and no holds barred once it was in the open. Fingers crossed Wills and Kate are a genuine love match and they have a long and happy marriage.
I'm curious about the Queen's time with Phillip prior to her coronation, especially in Malta and always thought that time would make an interesting read - the one opportunity she had to be a regular navy wife. The similarities with Kate in Anglesey must be very poignant for HM.

QUEENECE29 04-30-2011 06:07 AM

I think it will be successful and solidarity, full of an eternal marriage. True love is seen in his eyes the Prince and Princess. Respect, love-filled life awaits them.
I hope and peace continue to wear the external factor.

Duchess 04-30-2011 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nahla10 (Post 1244644)
Actually I think it will be more like William will be very supportive to Catherine to make sure the tradegy happened to his Mom won't repeat.

good point nahla. i think it's important that he's supportive of her until she's comfortable in her role. i get the feeling that he's already doing. i don't why i get the feeling that marriage reminds me of the QM and HM but something about it does that.

HIM_David 04-30-2011 08:17 PM

I agree that they are a lot like George VI and Elizabeth QM, I wonder where they will establish official residence? I really think they should think outside the box.

Cailin Deas 04-30-2011 09:08 PM

I agree, to a certain extent. Yes, Catherine understands, better than any Royal bride since QM what it is to be a consort. She doesnt want to be a star. She is happy to play support to her husband. There have been a lot of comparisons to Diana - IMO the Duchess of Cambridge will be better than 3 Dianas......she is elegant, understated, classy and mature. She doesnt seem to be vindictive nor manipulative. I like her.

Iluvbertie 04-30-2011 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cailin Deas (Post 1246052)
I agree, to a certain extent. Yes, Catherine understands, better than any Royal bride since QM what it is to be a consort. She doesnt want to be a star. She is happy to play support to her husband. There have been a lot of comparisons to Diana - IMO the Duchess of Cambridge will be better than 3 Dianas......she is elegant, understated, classy and mature. She doesnt seem to be vindictive nor manipulative. I like her.


Very true - with the steel in her backbone to help her through, a loving family to turn to when things get her down and a chance to be second on the totem pole for quite some time. The QM wasn't even married to the heir presumptive until she had been married for 13 years and hopefully Kate will also have about 13 - 15 years before she is married to the heir apparent. I do hope though that they then have another 15 or so years in that position before taking on the top job.

rmay286 04-30-2011 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Princess (Post 1245297)
I think she will need to make a very concerted effort to avoid being made into a superstar.

I don't think Kate has the charisma to be a superstar like Diana, nor any interest in becoming a superstar - unlike Diana, who sometimes went looking for attention.

Kate might be a little like Queen Mary - quiet and reserved, but dedicated to her role. I think William did make a good choice of bride, even though it took him so long to pop the question! Kate is cautious and reserved but seems kind nevertheless; and she dresses well and is attractive without being glamorous. Those are some of the main qualities required for a princess and future queen. And the fact that she and William seem to really love and respect each other helps a lot as well.

I think Kate and William seem very anxious to please and very aware of the weight of their future role and the consequences of "getting it wrong." I have no doubt that they're going to do everything humanly possible to avoid making the mistakes of past generations. Whether they can prevent scandals and heartbreaks is another matter, but I know they will try. William and Kate are in such an unenviable position, if you think about it. Everyone goes into their marriage thinking it will last, but William and Kate know it has to last, for better or worse.

CrownPrincess5 04-30-2011 11:31 PM

Marriage is very hard. It's a whole lot of work, patience, dedication and self-examining. I hope they try to work it out. I hope they keep their commitment to one another and keep their marriage sacred. I really do not want to hear of a divorce. I hope that generational curse ends here.

Osipi 04-30-2011 11:38 PM

I think if you think back to the opening of the Bishop of London's sermon, it expresses exactly who William and Kate are in a nutshell.

"Be who God meant you to be and you will set the world on fire.” So said St Catherine of Siena whose festival day it is today. Marriage is intended to be a way in which man and woman help each other to become what God meant each one to be, their deepest and truest selves."

This coupled with the prayer the couple composed themselves and the eloquent reading by James Middleton really give us a pretty good insight into who these two people are.

I am not Christian but I will very much admit to how poignant it all was and stating as much as their marriage vows how dedicated they are to not only each other but to what is meaningful to them in their lives. In a way I have to think that this wedding ceremony was not only religious, but very spiritual and personal too.

The Bishop of London's Sermon

PrincessKaimi 05-01-2011 12:06 AM

I hope they settle into their home, and find some time away from the media for awhile. After awhile, trips to the store and casual outings are not going to intrigue the media so much, it will die down.

Lisele 05-01-2011 12:20 AM

I think this wedding will be more successful because for starters, Catherine is older when she got married. She went to University, she worked and she is more secure as a person than Diana ever was. I adore Diana but she was a very sheltered woman who didn't get a chance to develop and grow into the woman she should have been. She had a lot of insecurities and hadn't had a chance to outgrow them at the time of her marriage. Catherine is her own woman - secure, confident, and very comfortable in her skin.

Actually.. she's a lot like me. We have the same birthday.... a few years apart :) lol :)

HRHofNothing 05-01-2011 12:58 AM

No one can predict the future but Catherine will have a much better start in THE FIRM than Diana did.

In addition to maturity and more self-confidence, Catherine will have something to help her to adjust to Royal life that Diana never did-a supportive husband. Adittionally, Catherine is no where as charismatic as Diana was so even though there will initally be a lot of media interest it will somewhat die down.

Iluvbertie 05-01-2011 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRHofNothing (Post 1246200)
No one can predict the future but Catherine will have a much better start in THE FIRM than Diana did.

In addition to maturity and more self-confidence, Catherine will have something to help her to adjust to Royal life that Diana never did-a supportive husband. Adittionally, Catherine is no where as charismatic as Diana was so even though there will initally be a lot of media interest it will somewhat die down.


You do Charles a disservice there. Diana admitted that he was supportive early on but that he, and the family, expected her to adjust more quickly than she did.

Charles was supportive in the early days and months but they were also the first in line and were expected to be on show almost immediately - something William and Kate won't have to be.

Had Charles still been in the military rather than already a fulltime working royal they might have had more time to allow her to settle in.

Leslie2006 05-02-2011 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1246253)
You do Charles a disservice there. Diana admitted that he was supportive early on but that he, and the family, expected her to adjust more quickly than she did.

Charles was supportive in the early days and months but they were also the first in line and were expected to be on show almost immediately - something William and Kate won't have to be.

Had Charles still been in the military rather than already a fulltime working royal they might have had more time to allow her to settle in.

Very true! Diana was also very young - just 3 weeks past her 20th birthday - as well as naive to the ways and workings of the royal family. She wasn't ready to be married, much less be on public display for the media to pick at. Kate is 29 and much more self-confident than Diana was at the time of her own marriage. Also, William was raised much differently than his father. Charles was raised to do exactly what he did - find a girl to marry and produce heirs with and keep a mistress on the side. William was raised to believe that marriage is a commitment you make for life and you make that commitment with someone you love. I think in his own way, Charles did love Diana; he just never learned how to express it the way most of us do. Thankfully, William doesn't have that problem and he's he's obviously very happy with Kate by his side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess (Post 1244624)
it occured to me that william and catherine remind me very much of the king george and the queen mother. the QM was very supportive of her husband. i get a sense that catherine will be the same way. not sure what's made me feel like this. does anyone else get that feeling?

I see what you're saying, but I don't get that feeling myself. The Queen Mother was a very haughty, stuck up sort of person - she always intentionally made people aware that she was royalty (after her marriage). Kate is not that way at all.

Dukedom 05-02-2011 11:55 AM

I think they will be a huge success, provided they are allowed to develop their public roles at their own pace and are allowed the normality of life they have known thus far until they are the 'front line' so to speak. It's good to think Catherine now has some time to prepare for the Canada tour which is going to be more worldwide media saturation, although I have absolutely no doubt that they will be an unparalleled success on the tour. I can barely wait! :D

That said, I think she has the strength of character to carve her own role and identity within the firm, that will compliment William without intentionally upstaging him. She's a smart cookie who absolutely knows what she's getting herself in to.

monkeyfish 05-02-2011 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess (Post 1244624)
it occured to me that william and catherine remind me very much of the king george and the queen mother. the QM was very supportive of her husband. i get a sense that catherine will be the same way. not sure what's made me feel like this. does anyone else get that feeling?

I agree, except I would characterize it as mutually supportive. Yes, the duty of one day being the Sovereign falls to William, but I think he is so mindful of what usually happens to women who marry into his family that we will see him being as ferociously supportive of Catherine as she is of him. I expect the Middletons will see plenty of their daughter and son-in-law and that they will not be frozen out to the degree that other in-laws have been.

They're a wonderful match, these two, and I wish them a lifetime of happiness.

Russophile 05-02-2011 03:39 PM

What struck me throughout this whole thing was Catherines poise. She carried off the media scrutiny, the wedding the whole she-bang (if you will) gracefully and seemingly effortlessly. I think these tools will serve her well as Duchess.
One thing that rankled and quite badly (and if this is the wrong place to put this, I apologize to the Mod's and ask that they move it to a more appropriate thread) was the commentators at the wedding. "William is Diana's son. Harry is Diana's son." Well they both are bloody well Charles' sons too! And I don't think they remember to give HRH TPoW the credit he deserves for raising them!

KittyAtlanta 05-02-2011 05:17 PM

I may have been imagining things, but I thought TDofCa was really enjoying herself at her wedding. I'm very glad of that. There have been instances amongst my family/friends where the bride doesn't even remember the ceremony...

Iluvbertie 05-02-2011 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile (Post 1247374)
What struck me throughout this whole thing was Catherines poise. She carried off the media scrutiny, the wedding the whole she-bang (if you will) gracefully and seemingly effortlessly. I think these tools will serve her well as Duchess.
One thing that rankled and quite badly (and if this is the wrong place to put this, I apologize to the Mod's and ask that they move it to a more appropriate thread) was the commentators at the wedding. "William is Diana's son. Harry is Diana's son." Well they both are bloody well Charles' sons too! And I don't think they remember to give HRH TPoW the credit he deserves for raising them!


There are times when I think commentators and members of the public think that William and Harry arrived via immaculate conception with the emphasis on them being Diana's sons.

ashelen 05-03-2011 04:40 PM

I read somewhere the in the new house that the y will live they only have securty officers, bodyguards, nothing else, but certenly I do not belive that, don't tell me she will do the cleaning of all that house?

charlottestreasures 05-03-2011 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashelen (Post 1247873)
I read somewhere the in the new house that the y will live they only have securty officers, bodyguards, nothing else, but certenly I do not belive that, don't tell me she will do the cleaning of all that house?

I read somewhere where they have a housekeeper.

Polly 05-03-2011 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisele (Post 1246182)
I think this wedding will be more successful because for starters, Catherine is older when she got married. She went to University, she worked and she is more secure as a person than Diana ever was. I adore Diana but she was a very sheltered woman who didn't get a chance to develop and grow into the woman she should have been. She had a lot of insecurities and hadn't had a chance to outgrow them at the time of her marriage. Catherine is her own woman - secure, confident, and very comfortable in her skin.

Good summation of the essential differences between both women. Added to which, perhaps,is the fact that Diana only met with Charles on 12 occasions before they married and was still calling him 'sir' and Catherine and William have been living as man and wife for some years.

Also, the Palace has appointed a very experienced and accomplished man in the ways of diplomacy, international affairs and royal protocol to advise and mentor Catherine, something which Diana never had - she was left to founder. As her adviser, he will be travelling to Canada with them both; he already has the confidence of William, having been charged with overseeing his and Harry's office when they established their independent office, and at HM's insistence.

Everything bodes well for the success of this most welcome marriage.

grimaldigirl 05-03-2011 08:36 PM

William and Kate
 
They do in a way appear to be like QM and George. I think they will be a great asset to Britain as they assume more responsibility. They are a beautiful couple.

Mermaid1962 05-03-2011 09:19 PM

I remember an article in ROYALTY years ago about Diana being an "icon". This was before she died. The writer made reference to all the images of Diana with downcast eyes and drew a connection between this image and the Madre de la Rosa. Hence the "immaculate conception" idea is a natural outcome. ;):flowers:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1247437)
There are times when I think commentators and members of the public think that William and Harry arrived via immaculate conception with the emphasis on them being Diana's sons.


Rebafan81 05-03-2011 09:23 PM

I think William and Kate have such a different dynamic then Charles and Diana. It was a completely different world then, and until Diana, the Royals were always center stage anywhere they went, it was always about the image. Charles was raised to obey completely what was laid out for him by the firm, he learned this first hand at his mothers knee,or should I say his nanny's knee because his mother was busy being HM QEII. Also, Diana and Charles weren't in love, maybe given different circumstances they could of learned to love each other, but Charles needed a virgin & Diana wanted to marry the Prince of Wales, so they didn't stand a chance.
IMHO,Kate and William love each other, to me that means they want the best for the other, you could see their pride in each other the entire day, I think they have what it takes to make it work, I don't think egos will be issue with these two.

Iluvbertie 05-03-2011 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polly (Post 1247888)
Good summation of the essential differences between both women. Added to which, perhaps,is the fact that Diana only met with Charles on 12 occasions before they married and was still calling him 'sir' and Catherine and William have been living as man and wife for some years.

Also, the Palace has appointed a very experienced and accomplished man in the ways of diplomacy, international affairs and royal protocol to advise and mentor Catherine, something which Diana never had - she was left to founder. As her adviser, he will be travelling to Canada with them both; he already has the confidence of William, having been charged with overseeing his and Harry's office when they established their independent office, and at HM's insistence.

Everything bodes well for the success of this most welcome marriage.


Diana was not left to founder.

She was given senior advisors - one being one of the Queen's own experienced Ladies-in-Waiting - but Diana dispensed with their services and advice before the marriage.

nascarlucy 05-03-2011 09:39 PM

I heard on NPR radio when they were talking about Diana's virginity saying that there was no written requirement that the heir to the throne had to marry a virgin (I thought that there was) but according to this report, it was more or less an understanding or a gentleman's type agreement that this is how it would be.

COUNTESS 05-03-2011 09:47 PM

Diana dispensed with the services of those who told her that her husband could have a mistress and to grin and bear it. What nonsense. She was a fool, she married a man who was devoted to another woman.

Little_Rain 05-04-2011 03:14 AM

I hope that they make it but only God knows if they will. They seem very down to earth. They got to truly know each other before they got married. I think they are a good example for many couples out there.

ghost_night554 05-04-2011 03:25 AM

Cute little article summing up what their married life may be like. Sorry if it's posted in the wrong place
Royal Wedding: From dream bride to perfect army wife - Telegraph

Skippy 05-04-2011 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COUNTESS (Post 1247986)
Diana dispensed with the services of those who told her that her husband could have a mistress and to grin and bear it. What nonsense. She was a fool, she married a man who was devoted to another woman.

I think it's disrespectful to call her 'a fool'. Do you know all and recognize every signal in that area when you are barely 20?
Hindsight provides easy talk.

Anyway, I think Catherine and William have a very good life ahead of them. They know each other, took their time and are on the same level. I have confidence that they will make it work.

Sonjapearl 05-04-2011 12:37 PM

I also agree William & Catherine are going to have a healthy marriage. I say this not only because they've known each other for years and got married when they wanted to, but because its also psychology.

I've read the best pair is when the woman is oldest in her family, this way the man could bring out her mothering ways. William lost his mother at a young age, and I've heard that he's needy. Therefore he has Catherine, who is the oldest in her family, to take care of him. Plus, they are both the oldest making them natural leaders, so they will go far together.

This is a match in heaven, dare I say!

sirhon11234 05-04-2011 12:45 PM

The cottage that the Cambridges will occupy will it be on an estate or is it a cottage among other cottages?

MRSJ 05-04-2011 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirhon11234
The cottage that the Cambridges will occupy will it be on an estate or is it a cottage among other cottages?

It's the same place they've been living I believe and I think it Royal family and media have an agreement not to publish it's exact location - though I've always thought it was not on an estate but just a regular allbeit large house, yes?

MRSJ 05-04-2011 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost_night554
Cute little article summing up what their married life may be like. Sorry if it's posted in the wrong place
Royal Wedding: From dream bride to perfect army wife - Telegraph

William is going to the Falklands? Officially confirmed or rumor?

sirhon11234 05-04-2011 12:55 PM

Quote:

It's the same place they've been living I believe and I think it Royal family and media have an agreement not to publish it's exact location - though I've always thought it was not on an estate but just a regular allbeit large house, yes?
Ah, very normal for these newlyweds. This will give Kate time to get used to her new role.

LadyGabrielle 05-04-2011 02:34 PM

I think that they will have a great marriage. They seem to truly love eachother and have been together for quite some time. The Duchess was given the opportunity to either go forward with the responsibility of becoming a royal or not. She made her choice and thank goodness she has William to guide her as well as some of the other family members. She has a better chance that the marriage will last and they will be happy. She seems strong and capable of the job. She carries herself well and seems to be a natural, like she was born for this. I admire her alot and give her credit for taking on this most important duty. As for her cleaning and cooking, I dont know about that. I would think they would have help. I cant really see her breaking a sweat. But who knows, they are a young couple with different ideas, so maybe.:flowers:

Osipi 05-04-2011 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRSJ (Post 1248224)
It's the same place they've been living I believe and I think it Royal family and media have an agreement not to publish it's exact location - though I've always thought it was not on an estate but just a regular allbeit large house, yes?

From what I've been reading, its not overly large. A few reports have called it a 5 room cottage. Somewhere too it was mentioned who their landlord is but heck if I can remember right now. Sounds like its small, intimate and cozy. Perfect for newlyweds.

MRSJ 05-04-2011 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi

From what I've been reading, its not overly large. A few reports have called it a 5 room cottage. Somewhere too it was mentioned who their landlord is but heck if I can remember right now. Sounds like its small, intimate and cozy. Perfect for newlyweds.

In this article-
Royal Wedding: From dream bride to perfect army wife - Telegraph

AnnaNotherThing 05-04-2011 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRHofNothing (Post 1246200)
No one can predict the future but Catherine will have a much better start in THE FIRM than Diana did.

In addition to maturity and more self-confidence, Catherine will have something to help her to adjust to Royal life that Diana never did-a supportive husband. Adittionally, Catherine is no where as charismatic as Diana was so even though there will initally be a lot of media interest it will somewhat die down.

I think Catherine's bright future in the family was made possible BECAUSE of Diana...The secrets, the lies, the inability to back out a marriage disaster before the wedding, the allowances made after Diana's death...the BRF learnt something from the whole experience and has softened, opened, become slightly transparent, approachable, relaxed somewhat and realise the world is changing and they have to move forward too if they want to remain relevant...So when Catherine looks at the sapphire ring on her finger, she should thank Diana, her mother-in-law, for her experiences and her sacrifices that have all paved the way in Catherine's journey...

ZaJa 05-04-2011 10:48 PM

The media is so hungry for pictures they want Catherine out there practically the second day after her wedding lol. I'm glad they're doing it the right way. I don't think anyone should expect them to go out there immediately. They have to set things up, research, plan, and life their lives.

nascarlucy 05-05-2011 08:52 PM

I don't know if this was done but I remember hearing something where a list of women were drawn up who would be acceptable, suitable or fit the requirements for marriage and then heir to the throne would pick one of them. In the old days, this more or less was how the heir chose his bride. Sometimes he found a good match, others times who he had to pick from wasn't exactly to his liking. You saw examples of this throughout history (didn't always involve the heir to the throne).

William and Catherine came together without others meddling or others trying to influence him. (which was probably a first for a future British heir to the throne). No one tried to play matchmaker or push them together or pressure him to marry her. Because of this, it is more likely that they will have a good marriage and less likely to divorce. I believe they truely love each other (you could tell by how they interacted with each other). It would be very difficult to fake loving someone.

notyourgirl 05-06-2011 03:09 AM

I can't wait to see their future babies :smile:
Yes I agree, they seem to really love each other, I believe they will last together forever!

AnnEliza 05-06-2011 01:36 PM

I think that is why they may remind some of us of George V! and Queen Elizabeth. As a second son never intended for the throne, Bertie was allowed to fall in love with Elizabeth and marry her. I would think that never would have been allowed had he been heir to the throne. So there we have a real love match, like the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

Though according to all reports the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh were also a love match, though as a Prince of Greece, he was eligible anyway. And those are the two marriages that famously lasted, though sadly the Queen's parents were not married as long due to George VI's early death. The Duke and Duchess of York were a love match too, (I believe), but it seems the media frenzy and pressures of being royal were too much for Sarah. Andrew certainly has continued to treat her well, and seems to still care for her all these years later.

Anyway, I agree that after the disasters of the marriages in their parents' era, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have done all they could to give themselves the best chance of a long and happy marriage. All best wishes to them for a long and happy life together.

Thena 05-06-2011 03:42 PM

^The late Queen Mother actually turned down two marriage proposals from George VI before finally accepting his third one, so it looks like she had enough time to seriously consider whether or not she could accept the lifestyle that came with marrying into the royal family.

And Prince Philip wasn't automatically acceptable even if he was of royal birth. The Queen Mother reportedly did not like him at first and would try to push her daughter towards British aristocrats in the hopes that she would find someone else. A lot of courtiers also did not seem to like Philip and treated him as an outsider. There's the story of a courtier who started to give Philip a history of Windsor castle before Philip cut him off to point out that his mother had been born there in the presence of Queen Victoria.

Also, Elizabeth and Philip were separated for much of WWII, and then George VI insisted on having Elizabeth accompany the family on a visit to South Africa to give the couple some time apart before announcing their engagement. This gave them both plenty of time to really thing about what they were getting into before the marriage.

William seems to have done the same thing by giving Catherine plenty of time to walk away before making that final commitment.

Whitetiger 05-06-2011 03:45 PM

William & Kate adopt a baby penguin...

William and Kate adopt baby penguin - Yahoo! News


cute little guy or girl and has a ready to go tuxedo for all of the important events. :lol:

cmkrcwi 05-06-2011 04:12 PM

FWIW, I've read that King George V and Queen Mary made a decision to allow their children to marry into the nobility,i.e, people who are peers or the children of peers so that would not have been a stumbling block had the then-Prince of Wales want to marry an earl's daughter, for example.

Lenora 05-06-2011 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmkrcwi (Post 1249404)
FWIW, I've read that King George V and Queen Mary made a decision to allow their children to marry into the nobility,i.e, people who are peers or the children of peers so that would not have been a stumbling block had the then-Prince of Wales want to marry an earl's daughter, for example.

Yes,indeed.It was revolutionary and something new for those times.But one of Queen Victoria's daughters was married to a peer though.By the way,only one son of George V's married a princess in her own right.For those times it was unbelievable that one day they could marry a commoner

Thena 05-06-2011 05:26 PM

Queen Victoria's daughter, Princess Louise, married an aristocrat who was in line to become Duke of Argyll. It was pretty controversial at the time and even the Prince of Wales objected. But Victoria could see at this point that the British people would not have accepted another German prince and she wanted to introduce new blood into the family.

Lady Ann 05-06-2011 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi (Post 1248417)
From what I've been reading, its not overly large. A few reports have called it a 5 room cottage. Somewhere too it was mentioned who their landlord is but heck if I can remember right now. Sounds like its small, intimate and cozy. Perfect for newlyweds.


Yes, they say it is small ( for their standards) the landlord had something to do with Henry VIII I remember reading Ill have to find it...

ghost_night554 05-07-2011 05:31 AM

Didn't know where to put this but I agree with part of this but on one point it kinda depresses me that William could be in his 60's when he ascends to throne. I just can't imagine them in their 60's. And I wonder if the public will still care or will they have "moved on" to his children by then if the monarchy still exists
The Royal Wedding: How William and Kate lit the touch paper for the new era of the monarchy - Telegraph

another article:
Kate Middleton can forget private life, says Sir Jackie Stewart - Telegraph

Whitetiger 05-07-2011 04:07 PM

Here is a bit more info on their lifestyle if anyone wants to take a read.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/down-to-earth-duchess-goes-shopping/story-fn6bqpju-1226051481824

ghost_night554 05-07-2011 08:17 PM

Kate Middleton, and the fine art of moulding a new husband - Telegraph
Máxima to future Princess Kate: It

Daria_S 05-07-2011 11:39 PM

This is priceless! Thank you for sharing.

monica17 05-09-2011 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitetiger (Post 1249775)
Here is a bit more info on their lifestyle if anyone wants to take a read.

Down-to-earth Duchess goes shopping | Adelaide Now

While it is interesting, doing her grocery shopping, i.e. "being down to earth" is no news, why should it be? 250 years ago, one of Empress Maria Theresa's daughters already did her own shopping at the local market, and she was born royal - and extremely haughty - at that.

I do like Kate Middleton as Prince William's wife but I don't think people should make a fuss over absolutely nothing.

semisquare 05-09-2011 09:19 AM

poor thing....... i think she'll be followed just like her late mother n law

Lumutqueen 05-09-2011 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semisquare
poor thing....... i think she'll be followed just like her late mother n law

Considering nearly every royal is followed, it's not surprising.

Hilda Thomas 05-17-2011 04:24 PM

Catherine the Duchess of Cambridge does not need a Lady-in-Waiting?
 
:cool::cool::bang:I read an article yesterday if it true that Catherine Duchess of Cambridge does not want a Lady-in-waiting when she visits Canada. This is very stupid she cannot do certain things by herself while cost has to be kept at a minimal it is appropriate that certain royal customs be kept. I hope that she and Prince William do not try to override customs that are important to their duties. "If we swim against the tide we will drown". Go along with the flow when it is required. "Prevention is better than cure"

Mermaid1962 05-17-2011 07:13 PM

They'll have other staff travelling with them who can do the Lady-in-Waiting's duties, though. I'm sure that there'll be an equerry and a private secretary. And if Kate finds it too much, she can have a Lady-in-Waiting in the future. I don't see this as being the end of the royal world. There'll still be the jewels and the formal dinners and the palaces and the patronages.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Hilda Thomas (Post 1254488)
I hope that she and Prince William do not try to override customs that are important to their duties. "If we swim against the tide we will drown". Go along with the flow when it is required. "Prevention is better than cure"


Lumutqueen 05-18-2011 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Pam (Post 1254491)
Yea but the other royals don't get as much as attention as the BRF. Especially here in the US. I don't remember as much hype on Victoria & Daniel's wedding like William & Catherine's.

All depends upon where you live.

Hilda Thomas 05-19-2011 01:35 AM

There is a bond between the British and Americans
 
I would presume to say that the reason why the Americans are interested in the British Royal family than any other royals around the world, is the United States of America was once a British colony although centuries have past. The bond still exists.

In the 1800 and early 1900, the wealthy families in the United States seeked husbands for their daughter (in england) especially those with titles like Duke, Earl and Baron. ( eventhough the titled suiters were pennyless) marrying their daughters to an Englishman (was a Feather in ones Cap")

After the Pilgrims set foot in this country and later years there was war between American and England that navel - string was never cut. The first and second world wars proved their love for each other (the greatest Allies). King George 111 lost America to George Washington but we the former colonist are still interested in merry old England and its royals.

Zonk 05-19-2011 03:42 PM

Please note that all posts regarding the honeymoon of William and Catherine have been moved to https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...l-30728-8.html .

Esmerelda Glutz 06-11-2011 04:45 AM

I think she would do a lot worse than follow CP Mary's style

dazzling 06-11-2011 07:43 AM

Kate Middleton speaks of 'blissful' marriage to Prince William
Mirror.co.uk article

Mia_mae 06-14-2011 10:10 AM

That's what happens when you take a tabloid story as a base for an article. Corrections on the article about house staff
Corrections and clarifications | From the Guardian | The Guardian

KittyAtlanta 06-14-2011 11:43 AM

This is of no import at all, except the clarification about PoW's Man of the Toothpaste.

MRSJ 06-14-2011 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BritishRoyals
Take note: William & Kate NEVER said anything about staff. They don't talk. Neither did the palace. So to say that "they made a big deal out of this" is definitely false and unfair
.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...clarifications

They didn't but their press secretary did per his quote. Just saying i didn't pull the idea out of thin air .....

Yes, it's about the Wales house and not London but my point is as their press rep he did say about the help which is the same as them making the statement- just wanted to clarify my earlier point that someone did talk about it officially.

miche 06-15-2011 12:26 AM

If they were talking about their Wales home than why would anyone assume it meant the same things for their London home?

Especially when everyone believe they would still be living with Charles, Camilla and would be bunking with Harry. Clarence House is full staff, so they were never going to be without staff in London.

PrincePatrick 06-15-2011 12:32 AM

I haven't read through every thread on this site to see if this has been discussed, but I had a thought earlier tonight. I remember that George V and Queen Mary had a cute habit with pillows ("May George?" "George May!") And I thought, perhaps we as a board should send Kate and Will some pillows as a wedding present! "Will Kate? Kate Will!" It's brilliant!

Osipi 06-15-2011 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincePatrick (Post 1267812)
I haven't read through every thread on this site to see if this has been discussed, but I had a thought earlier tonight. I remember that George V and Queen Mary had a cute habit with pillows ("May George?" "George May!") And I thought, perhaps we as a board should send Kate and Will some pillows as a wedding present! "Will Kate? Kate Will!" It's brilliant!

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: I love it! That is so cute!

fandesacs2003 06-15-2011 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRSJ (Post 1267792)

Very stupid discussion from the press!!!
Millions of average couples have a help at home, it is not the most luxurious act in the world!!! Why the future King of England and his rich wife should have not! :bang:

I understand that the last years the trend is to "democratize" royalty but they are not obliged to pretend to live worst that the poors!

dazzling 06-15-2011 05:50 AM

The press sure do like to take the discussion to another level just to make a story out of it.

Osipi 06-15-2011 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 (Post 1267875)
Very stupid discussion from the press!!!
Millions of average couples have a help at home, it is not the most luxurious act in the world!!! Why the future King of England and his rich wife should have not! :bang:

I understand that the last years the trend is to "democratize" royalty but they are not obliged to pretend to live worst that the poors!

What baffles me is that people don't see that Kate is not a "rich wife". Her parents have made a good financial nest egg over the years which Kate probably does stand to inherit from but that doesn't mean she has unlimited access to those funds. Same with William. He's inherited from his mother and most likely a trust fund maybe from his great grandmother (we really don't know what William's state of financial affairs are do we?) To assume that they can snap their fingers and buy what the heart desires is probably not the case.

I've said it before and I'll state it again that I really think that when they are at home on Anglesy, they live off William's pay as a SAR pilot. One reason that some folks do have a healthy bank account is because they learn to live within a budget. Having help where it is needed is not a luxury... its a necessity.

csw 06-15-2011 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincePatrick (Post 1267812)
I haven't read through every thread on this site to see if this has been discussed, but I had a thought earlier tonight. I remember that George V and Queen Mary had a cute habit with pillows ("May George?" "George May!") And I thought, perhaps we as a board should send Kate and Will some pillows as a wedding present! "Will Kate? Kate Will!" It's brilliant!

Very clever

fandesacs2003 06-15-2011 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi (Post 1267887)
What baffles me is that people don't see that Kate is not a "rich wife". Her parents have made a good financial nest egg over the years which Kate probably does stand to inherit from but that doesn't mean she has unlimited access to those funds. Same with William. He's inherited from his mother and most likely a trust fund maybe from his great grandmother (we really don't know what William's state of financial affairs are do we?)

You are right. Of course they do not have unlimited acces to the family funds. On the other side, when you see Catherine's life for the last years (clothing, travels, social presence) you can understand that she was not living strictly on her part time or full time job salary! She has some income from her family and William from his mother, not extremely high maybe, but high enough to allow them to pay a housekeeper for some hours per week!

muriel 06-15-2011 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRSJ (Post 1267792)
Corrections and clarifications | From the Guardian | The Guardian

They didn't but their press secretary did per his quote. Just saying i didn't pull the idea out of thin air .....

Yes, it's about the Wales house and not London but my point is as their press rep he did say about the help which is the same as them making the statement- just wanted to clarify my earlier point that someone did talk about it officially.


Duke and Duchess of Cambridge scrap plans to employ housekeeper at Kensington Palace home - Telegraph

Duke and Duchess of Cambridge scrap plans to employ housekeeper at Kensington Palace home

The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have scrapped plans to recruit a servant to work in their new London base at Kensington Palace, it has emerged.

Duchess 06-15-2011 09:40 AM

i believe that william inherited a substantial amount from his mother and could, if he wished, afford to live far better than he does. having a small staff is far more realistic for them...they need someone to manage their public lives and if they have a small staff for the KP apartment maybe it's not full time but only when they know that the duke and duchess will be spending time there. just some thoughts.

Bine221 06-15-2011 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess (Post 1267958)
i believe that william inherited a substantial amount from his mother and could, if he wished, afford to live far better than he does. having a small staff is far more realistic for them...they need someone to manage their public lives and if they have a small staff for the KP apartment maybe it's not full time but only when they know that the duke and duchess will be spending time there. just some thoughts.

Correct. As much as I know, Diana got 40 Million Euros from the divorce from Charles (apart from the jewels and other stuff she received as personal gifts). I heard, that most went to Harry, as he will not become king one day. OK, nevertheless Wills still have some money and he definately is NOT POOR!!!

Apart from that: there is a "private life" they have in Anglesey (which very well can be paid by Williams salary and you do not need much more than cooking and cleaning :whistling:.

And: they have a "public Life" in London -- as we have seen last week: One Public Duty after the other. So this is a completely different life here, where they definately need some help. And although I love and agree, that Catherine has an excellent dressing taste, you still can make many mistakes with the dress code for example.

Additionally: what is happening with the organisation of all their charities, letters to be answered, thousands of wedding wishes etc.... here this will need more than just Kates hands to organise, answer, write etc.... so in this case they need help as well.

So there is a difference between not getting help in Angelsey and getting help in London.

BYe Bine

MRSJ 06-15-2011 10:29 AM

So if she's not a 'rich wife' who paid for her $2,000 dress (or more) she wore ? Or her McQueen coat? Or her several pairs of. $300+ shoes? C'mon guys let's be realistic, no matter what they live off of (and I'm not convinced it's his salary) they are rich- at least by my standards. I don't care where the money comes from, makes no difference to me but I think it's very unrealistic to deny that William and Kate are rich.....maybe not uber rich by Royal standards like the Queen or Charles but still rich......but rich in this case doesn't equal pretentious IMO

Based on the new statements that the Duke and Duchess do not was a 'servent' in London bc they're mainly in Wales they want to be normal....and they do not feel they need help in either home.....I'm sure as their duties grow they'll have to get some ....but I respect they are not doing so if it's not necessary to them yet

Edit- on another note- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...nada-tour.html

bertie5252003 06-15-2011 02:13 PM

I think that this no dresser is something that Kate may regret these tours are horrible and they do take there toll no matter how young or experienced William is probably used to them but she will not be and it is IMO a huge risk. It is on thing to save money another to be so totally OTT that you put yourself at risk. Yes embassies willl probably help but ..... there staff are always at a minumin anyway and though thye would not doubt provide ... having that backup is a huge emotional as well mental support I believe she is foolish but that is only in my experience and time I guess will tell. IMO

Jacknch 06-15-2011 02:30 PM

Oh I'm sure they'll manage without someone to lay out a dress and suit on the bed. I went on a two week tour of New England and Canada last year and had to get off the ship EVERY day to visit the various stop-off ports, visit museums, gardens, shops and various landmarks, plus find somewhere to eat each time AND get changed for dinner each evening and not forgetting having to wave everytime we entered and left port - I managed perfectly well to sort out my wardrobe with no trouble at all. Provided Catherine (and for that matter William) take plenty of clothes and back-ups and they're put in the wardrobes in proper order, it'll be a breeze!

Duchess 06-15-2011 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRSJ (Post 1267986)
So if she's not a 'rich wife' who paid for her $2,000 dress (or more) she wore ? Or her McQueen coat? Or her several pairs of. $300+ shoes? C'mon guys let's be realistic, no matter what they live off of (and I'm not convinced it's his salary) they are rich- at least by my standards. I don't care where the money comes from, makes no difference to me but I think it's very unrealistic to deny that William and Kate are rich.....maybe not uber rich by Royal standards like the Queen or Charles but still rich......but rich in this case doesn't equal pretentious IMO

Based on the new statements that the Duke and Duchess do not was a 'servent' in London bc they're mainly in Wales they want to be normal....and they do not feel they need help in either home.....I'm sure as their duties grow they'll have to get some ....but I respect they are not doing so if it's not necessary to them yet

Edit- on another note- Kate Middleton and Prince William take entourage of just 7 on US and Canada tour | Mail Online

william and catherine are definitely rich...i don't dispute that but i think they try to live as modestly as they can given their role and who they are. i think if they wanted to they could live in a big beautiful house with lots of staff and drive expensive cars but they don't. they choose to live a life much more modest than their friends. as for her wedding dress, i believe it was her parents that paid for it and she probably received an allowance from them prior to her marriage...obviously she had income from somewhere to be able to have the lifestyle she had.

LadyGabrielle 06-15-2011 03:11 PM

I believe that Catherine is quite capable of dressing herself. She didnt have a dresser before she married. As for not having servants, I think its good that they stay as grounded as possible. Of course Im sure they will have a house full of staff at some point but I admire the fact that they would prefer to have a somewhat "normal" lifestyle. I would only hope that in the future they will be able to continue a somewhat more modern lifestyle than what is expected. I think Catherine has a good head on her shoulders and would never do anything that would embarrass the firm. She knows the protocol and she knows what is expected of her. I have complete faith that she can hold her own.:flowers:

KittyAtlanta 06-15-2011 03:32 PM

I guess I'm a black sheep in this group, as Katherine definitely needs a dresser, if nothing else. She has looked very nice on her recent outings, but I am sure she had someone to help her. Her polish could use some coaxing.

The Cambridges are new enough for most people not to care about how they're turned out, but I sure wouldn't like for Kate to think that the outfit she wore the day after the wedding was OK for a public appearance.

Money is no indicator of anything. It makes life easier, but it can't make a person stylish unless they have some style.

Whitetiger 06-15-2011 04:53 PM

I have to partially agree with KittyAtlanta. I can only hope that Catherine gets a lot of advice and hopefully has everything neatly listed in advance.

(i.e. Outfits pre-picked out for each event and alternate outfits in case of foul weather).

I can only hope that she doesn't build her own wardrobe choices on her own without any help. That would be a potential disaster in the making. I hope that the number of recycled outfits are kept to a minimum.. like 1 or preferably zero.

Personally.. I would have preferred that they drop the number of press secretaries from 5 to 4 and replace that 1 slot with a personal assistant for Catherine.. but that's just my opinion.

Skippy 06-15-2011 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitetiger (Post 1268168)
I have to partially agree with KittyAtlanta. I can only hope that Catherine gets a lot of advice and hopefully has everything neatly listed in advance.

(i.e. Outfits pre-picked out for each event and alternate outfits in case of foul weather).

I can only hope that she doesn't build her own wardrobe choices on her own without any help. That would be a potential disaster in the making. I hope that the number of recycled outfits are kept to a minimum.. like 1 or preferably zero.

Personally.. I would have preferred that they drop the number of press secretaries from 5 to 4 and replace that 1 slot with a personal assistant for Catherine.. but that's just my opinion.

I think this will be a point of heavily conflicting opinions for some time to come...

Sister Morphine 06-15-2011 07:58 PM

It's been said here before I believe, but a "dresser" is not the same as a stylist, or someone whose job it is to pick out clothes for their employer to wear that day, or for that event. A "dresser" as it has been defined by other people here, is more akin to a PA or runner.

MRSJ 06-15-2011 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess

william and catherine are definitely rich...i don't dispute that but i think they try to live as modestly as they can given their role and who they are. i think if they wanted to they could live in a big beautiful house with lots of staff and drive expensive cars but they don't. they choose to live a life much more modest than their friends. as for her wedding dress, i believe it was her parents that paid for it and she probably received an allowance from them prior to her marriage...obviously she had income from somewhere to be able to have the lifestyle she had.

I do agree- rich but not showy or pretenious (spelled right?)

jdcharlie 06-16-2011 12:02 AM

I hope Kate and William employ as many people as they need. The key word being need. If they need them, I would hope nobody begrudges them some help.

For example, it seems admirable, but a dresser really would come in handy on this trip. Primarily because Kate will be moving from city to city, packing and re-packing, constantly busy and she has to look perfect at all times - not wrinkled, no hair or slip out of place - otherwise everyone, including many in this forum, will tear her down. It's not the same as the rest of us going on vacation.

I'm glad she's taking her hairdresser at the very least. I just hope she didn't let the media bully her out of taking someone she might need, when they'll be the first to take her to task for not getting the requisite help or looking slightly askew. Oh, the constant hypocrisy.

bertie5252003 06-16-2011 12:53 AM

I am going to say and this is against my better judgement, as I seem to get a "telling off " from Mods when I buy in further but .... it's NOT about the dressing yourself on thes tours. These a real toll on the royal especially the first time and it is all hands to the pump to get that person through. Believe me.... so if it was only about popping on a frock then the drovers dog could do that. Anyway I will get a little message I am sure but that is the truth and my experience. It really should be clear but obviously not........

BritishRoyals 06-16-2011 05:54 AM

Agree about the staff situation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with hiring a little help. Forget that they're royals. They can hire help simply because they can, and especially more so if they need to (and I believe they do). There's no shame in it. I hope Kate gets the help she needs in this tour. Perhaps the "admin assistant", James Pryce or one of the secretaries can indirectly help in the wardrobe department -- if it only means getting them ready, packing/unpacking, etc.

But it certainly is admirable to have the couple try out the "minimum." That shows they're well grounded and not afraid to work. Hats off to them. Just hope it isn't overwhelming.

Sister Morphine 06-16-2011 08:44 AM

Didn't anybody read the post I made? A dresser is not the same thing as a stylist. So why do people insist on saying Catherine needs a "dresser" to make sure she doesn't look like crap when her and William get to whatever event they're going to? That's not what a dresser does.

Charlotte1 06-16-2011 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BritishRoyals (Post 1268328)
Perhaps the "admin assistant", James Pryce or one of the secretaries can indirectly help in the wardrobe department -- if it only means getting them ready, packing/unpacking, etc.

.

In Canada William and Kate will be staying either with the Governor General in Ottowa and then with the various official residences of the governors in each province. These places have staff! That's who is going to be packing/unpacking, getting the luggage sorted, cleaning etc. When not staying in official residences they will be in hotel suites who again come with staff. They don't need to take large amounts of staff to do basic chores for them.

In LA they are staying at the British Consul-General's house, again a house that comes with staff.

The staff they are taking with them are more important, the 2 press secretaries to co-ordinate the huge media contingent that is coming. The Private secretary and deputy private secretary who make sure each engagement goes smoothly since they put the program together and did a reconnosance trip beforehand.

4Pam 06-16-2011 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
Didn't anybody read the post I made? A dresser is not the same thing as a stylist. So why do people insist on saying Catherine needs a "dresser" to make sure she doesn't look like crap when her and William get to whatever event they're going to? That's not what a dresser does.

I think everyone understands what a dresser does. What they're saying is that Kate should at least take one with her to make sure her clothes look right, aren't wrinkled, someone to pack & unpack for her and she doesn't leave anything behind at wherever they are staying. It'd be pretty exhausting going from one event to the next then having to worry about packing & unpacking. There should be someone to at least help them out with that.

I trust Kate to put together some great outfits for the Canada and LA tour. She maybe working with a stylist now in London & putting together some outfits. She may mix & match high street clothes with couture designers (Valentino skirt with a Reiss or H&M top).

I'm sure Kate will look amazing if she continues to follow what she likes to wear and not what the public wants to see.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises