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RoyalistRiley 09-23-2010 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ TAYLER (Post 1139244)
Wait till the inevitable next revolution when the current fifth, or subsequent republic turns in on itself.

I think that the fact France has had 5 goes at a republic actually shows a monarchy might make a comeback in the future. Hopefully if it does it won't be as bloody as the French Revolution

silverstar 11-05-2010 09:54 PM

What really happened on that wet October night in 1769 ?
The women had spent all day marching there... soaked to the skin... feet covered in mud.....
Lafayette and his militia didnt get there till midnight... huge A huge crowd built up around the palace... often
angry and threatening..... what did Lafayette do... he
went to a local hotel and immediately fell into a deep sleep.
Of course , in the early hours , ( while Lafayette slept ) security was breached and a bloodthirsty mob broke into the palace and began hunting Marie Antoinette.... who then fled for her life.
The next morning... to placate the angry mob King Louis suddenly announced to the crowd that he would return with them to Paris with his wife and family.
It seems incredible that he made this decision... on the spot.. without consulting anyone... giving in to the mob and then having to travel on a humiliating 8 hour journey to Paris
Marie suffering abuse and threats from the fisherwomen and rough market women...

What should really have happened is Lafayette and his militia should have restored control and order.... violence would have ensued but the crisis would have passed and the King and Queen would be safe and secure in Versailles.
Time and time again we see a weak King .. dithering... unable to make tough decisions and having ... misplaced faith and trust in .. " the French people " or in that case.. the " French Mob "

Marie Antoinette must have despaired at her weak, docile husband

silverstar 11-24-2010 06:48 PM

There was an interesting repeat of history.... in 1870...
Empress Eugenie was living in the Tuileries Palace...
Emperor Louis Napoleon was with his troops.... trying to lift morale against the onslaught of the Prussian army.
The French army faced defeat and Louis was captured.
The fickle Paris mob began to turn against the monarchy...
Fearing for her life ...Eugenie decided she must flee....
She escaped Paris in a horse drawn carriage.... and eventually made it to England and safety.
It was like a later day... flight to Varrens.... only this time with a happy outcome.
Louis and her son eventually joined her there in England and they lived in some style.
Sadly ill health took its toll on Louis Napoleon and he died a couple of years later.
Eugenie's son grew to manhood and joined the British Army.
While serving in South Africa he was ambushed by Zulu warriors and killed.
Eugenie... heartbroken... eventually travelled to South Africa and visited the scene of her sons ambush and killing.
She lived on to a grand old age and lived to see her arch enemies... the Germans... defeated by France and the allies in the first world war.

silverstar 12-10-2010 04:20 AM

Museum of the French Revolution..... looks like a formidable place...
anyone ever been there ?
Celebheaven • View topic - Museum of the French Revolution

David V 12-10-2010 08:28 PM

The can be no doubt that the violence of the French Revolution was terrible, certainly nothing to be proud of. Sadly, humanity has not really progressed beyond that sort of thing these days.

But so much of today's political landscape can trace its origins to the Revolution. Today's remaining monarchies in Europe owe their existence in part to their response to the Revolution. Before 1789, the only monarchies that we could describe as constitutional monarchies were Britain, Poland and Sweden. Britain had its Glorious Revolution to affirm the supremacy of Parliament. Poland long had a parliamentary tradition, but the liberal reforms of 1791 was too late to save it from partition. Sweden long had its parliament and council, and the Age of Liberty in the 18th century. Legislative bodies of a sort existed in most European monarchies, but their powers varied- in Denmark, there was from 1660 to 1849 a "pure" absolutism without even that, whose effect was actually to break the influence and privilege of the nobility.

The First Republic, as we all know, exported its revolutionary ideas throughout Europe through the creation of client republics, and became more of a military state with Napoleon in power. Then Napoleon decided to take things in a different path- he created his own monarchy with himself as Emperor, and exported his new ideals throughout Europe as well, by creating client monarchies. But this also led to more wars involving much of Europe. It's true that Napoleon brought some progressive reforms- and that included equality before the law, etc.

While the Congress of Vienna restored the "old" order, France never reverted back to the absolutism of the Ancien Regime. And constitutionalism became permanent in Europe. However, the Bourbon Restoration would break down too, and a more liberal monarchy came under the House of Orleans, who played their part of the revolution.

In effect this meant you found two different versions and visions of monarchy: the traditional way and the more modern and liberal way. In a sense, Napoleon believed he was creating a "Third Way" between the radical republicans and reactionary royalists. The Orleans did exactly the same, calling it le juste milieu- the "balance" between radical and reactionary. But at the same time, we could see that at the tail end of the Napoleonic Wars, Norway was drafting their constitution, which remains in force today. They took on board ideas from France and the US, but decided on a constitutional monarchy, and they are very proud of their constitution. The Netherlands did the same (albeit heavily amended over time). The events of 1830 and 1848 (which was as much about liberalism as it was about nationhood in Germany and Italy) really only continued the political evolution.

silverstar 12-10-2010 10:14 PM

Napoleon's mother became known as ... Madamoiselle Mere... I believe
incredible that her children grew up to become rulers of half of Europe....
Austria... a rival of France for centuries, yet Napolean defeated them ... there were some amazing victories for the French at that time.
Just wondering... was there ever a victorious entry of Napoleon into Vienna ? that would be very symbolic .

David V 12-11-2010 06:59 AM

It was Austria's Metternich who through the Congress of Vienna re-established the "old order" in Europe from 1815, which was to last to 1848 and ultimately ended with German Unification in 1871. France of course underwent numerous political changes in that time. When Franz Josef took the Austrian throne in 1848, he ended the power of Metternich, although in Austria this was the time of neo-absolutism.

I am doing an essay on historic and current monarchist movements, and the developments during and after the Revolution are or will be mentioned, in explaining why there are three distinct French monarchist movements.

silverstar 12-11-2010 10:50 AM

I think to understand the French Revolution we have to study
the Duc D'Orleans and the Palais Royal.... which seems to have been
a hedonistic domain of brothels and prostitution and a place for radicals to meet.
Also there were printing presses in there so it was a source for the tidal wave of pamphlets and pornography which defamed Marie Antoinette and the Monarchy.....
I dont think the authorities in London would ever have allowed
such a set up in the heart of London back then !
go here
Celebheaven • View topic - Philippe Egalite... Duc d'Orleans

COUNTESS 12-11-2010 04:23 PM

Oh, you don't think the horrendeous conditions that the populace lived under and the lack of justice that they faced, had anything to do with it. Just "hedonistic domain, where radicals could meet", did it?

silverstar 12-11-2010 04:44 PM

But those radicals and their printing presses were supplying the
combustable fuel..... ie political and pornographic pamphlets .....for those hungry masses to read...... and the scheming
Duc D'Orleans was giving the discontented a place to meet and plot the downfall of the monarchy.

COUNTESS 12-11-2010 08:06 PM

Sorry, I am an American, we did the same thing, thank God. Yes, he gave people who were downtrodden a place to gather. The sad thing is that, now, you make it sound like some "dirty" endeavor. It was the right thing to do.

David V 12-12-2010 07:35 AM

It's true that hardcore Legitimists consider the Orleans to be "traitors" because of that. As I said in the other thread, the Orleanists and Bonapartists are those who accepted the French Revolution, its symbols and values, while seeking a "Third Way". Legitimists rejected the symbols and values of the Revolution, even though the Bourbon Restoration did not undo many of the reforms carried out by the First Republic and Napoleon.

Let it be known that the lessons learned from the Revolution are some of the reasons constitutional monarchies continue to exist today.

silverstar 12-12-2010 09:52 AM

Strange that all the ... "Catholic" ... Monarchies of the south of Europe have
fallen... ie Austria... France... Italy. while many of the .... "Protestant" ... Monarchies of northern Europe have survived.
... ie Britain... Denmark... Sweden...

David V 01-03-2011 12:25 AM

What about Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg, Monaco, Liechtenstein... they're all Catholic. Even some non-European monarchies (e.g. Lesotho) are Catholic too.

Some have likened Napoleon to Alexander the Great, in that both men tried to reconstruct the world around them to their vision. But you could also say this was comparable to Rome- which also evolved from Kingdom to Republic to Empire. But whereas the Roman Empire brought a long period of peace in Europe that would not be surpassed for centuries, the First Republic and First Empire in France did the opposite by plunging Europe into a war. Even though things such as social reforms and constitutionalism came out of that.

A fair amount of what's happened since can be traced to that.

An interesting sidenote is the history of Corsica, the home of the Bonapartes. The Corsicans had risen against Genoese rule in the 18th century and under Pasquale Paoli became an independent republic with a democratic constitution between 1755 and 1769, when it came under French rule. Paoli initially supported the French Revolution but then broke ranks with the revolutionaries, because of the execution of the King. So by 1793, he called an assembly and Corsica declared its independence. It became the Kingdom of Corsica in union with Britain under George III, also with a democratic constitution. This didn't last long, and France retook Corsica. Paoli went to England, where he would spend the remainder of his life.

An Ard Ri 03-13-2011 03:41 PM

Royal Tombs suffered terribly during the Revolution,many of them were lost or destroyed forever.

Its such a shame that mobs were let desecrate priceless pieces of medieval tomb effigies & sculptures.

silverstar 03-13-2011 04:56 PM

They must have also been after valuable artefacts too.. rings,
diadems , etc .. all of which must have appeared on the black market soon after.
I ve often wondered what dececration went on at St Denis .

An Ard Ri 03-13-2011 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverstar (Post 1215784)
They must have also been after valuable artefacts too.. rings,
diadems , etc .. all of which must have appeared on the black market soon after.
I ve often wondered what dececration went on at St Denis .

Horrific desecration!

Many tombs were smashed to pieces,others were mutilated by vandals.

The royal vaults were smashed open & the remains of Kings,Queens,Princes & Princesses were dragged from their coffins & dumped in a large pit outside the Abbey Saint Denis .

In August 1793 the following bodies were exhumedOn 12 October,1793

Henri IV
14 October:16 October:17 October:18 October:19 October:20 October:24 October:25 October:18 January 1794 :The tombs of other French Royals in Paris at the Couvent des Jacobins,Couvent des CÚlestins & Couvent des Cordeliers were all destroyed.Most of them dated from the 1300/1400's :sad:

silverstar 03-13-2011 05:35 PM

Not only in Paris was this going on, but in other parts of France too,
For eg. the tomb of the lovely
Dian de Poitiers was looted on her estate in Anet.

But the scenes in St Denis must have been horrifying and a
desecration of 1000 years of history.
I ve been thinking for a while now of getting together some pics
of St Denis and its history and maybe make a post somewhere.

In Pre Revolutionary days it must have been magnificent and awe inspiring.

An Ard Ri 03-13-2011 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverstar (Post 1215800)
Not only in Paris was this going on, but in other parts of France too,
For eg. the tomb of the lovely
Dian de Poitiers was looted on her estate in Anet.

But the scenes in St Denis must have been horrifying and a
desecration of 1000 years of history.
I ve been thinking for a while now of getting together some pics
of St Denis and its history and maybe make a post somewhere.

In Pre Revolutionary days it must have been magnificent and awe inspiring.

Yes that's true,the tombs of the Dukes of Brittany & those of the Queen of Navarre at Vendome were also pillaged & destroyed.

That would be an excellent idea!


Can you imagine what St Denis & those other churches would have looked like if the Revolution had not happened :sad:

silverstar 03-13-2011 06:17 PM

Heres a pic of Marie Antoinette in St Denis... her statue that is..
though I doubt she would have worn a dress so revealing in real life !
Celebheaven • View topic - Marie Antoinette


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