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Velasco 12-02-2008 05:14 PM

Ancient Egyptian Dynasties to the Ptolemies of Egypt & Palestine
 
After Alexander the Great's death, his empire was broken up into smaller kingdoms by his generals.

The general Ptolemy took Egypt and a few surrounding territories and founded a dynasty which lasted until the reign of the Roman Emperor Augustus.

What I don't understand is, why did the Greek Ptolemy family suddenly embrace Ancient Egyptian practice of royal incest? And from that point on, marry their own siblings, in some cases father-daughter marriages, and even multiple marriages (ie, two brothers married to the same sister, simultaneously).

Also, as everyone knows, the last ruler of the dynasty was the infamous Cleopatra, who comitted suicide.

Her sons, Ceasarion, Ptolemy, and Alexander Helios all died as children.
But her daughter Cleopatra Selene survived, married a client-King of the Roman Empire, and had issue. Supposedly Zenobia of Palmyra was her descendant, and through Zenobia's surviving son, the blood of the Ptolemies eventually entered the Byzantine Imperial house, and from there passing to western royal houses, and eventually Queen Elizabeth II herself.
Anyone know if this is true?

iakynthi 12-02-2008 05:36 PM

It's a very interesting thread,Velasco!Congratulations!!
I'm not sure (don't think anyone can be...) about QEII's bloodline.About your first question:don't forget that Alexander himself opened the way for the "mixture" of the then known religions.All these combined with the general corruption of that era....the Ptolemies could not have done anything better.If you're really interested about this time of History I suggest you read the "History of the Hellenistic world" written by Hans-Joachim Gehrke.

Velasco 12-02-2008 06:59 PM

Thanks!:angel:
I will see if I can find that book here in Brazil, there's no use ordering it from Amazon and having it posted here as it'd just get stolen.


Just for curiosity, here is the supposed bloodline:

1. Cleopatra VII = (4) Mark Anthony, Roman general
2. Cleopatra Selene = Juba II, King of Mauretania (d.23AD) [his 1st wife]
3. Ptolemy King of Mauretania (d.40 AD) = (1) Mariam[mne], (2) Urania [Julia], daughter of Phraates IV, King of Parthia and his wife Thea Urania
5. Drusilla = (1) Felix, Governor of Judea, [the husband of three princesses, called "queens", all named Drusilla], divorced and (2) Sohaemus, King of Emessa 54-73 AD, & begot
6. Caius Julius Alexio (d78) [his two sisters were: (1) Iotape, wife of Rabbel II "Soter", King of Nabataea 71-106; and (2) Mamaea, wife of M. Ant. Polemo]; = Claudia, daughter of Appius Calpurnius Piso & Servilia, daughter of Claudius, Roman Emperor 41-54; begot
7. Mamaea [daughter] [her brother was: Caius Julius Silas]; = Malchus, King of Pamyra, begot
8. Zenobius, begot
9. C. Julius Bassus Nassum (d.179 AD), begot
10. Malchus, begot
11. Malchus, begot
12. Jul. Aur. Zenobius, Governor of Palmyra AD 229, = Zabbai of Arabia [descendant of Rabbel II "Soter", King of Nabataea 71-106, &, wife, Iotape, daughter of Sohaemus, King of Emena, &, wife, Drusilla, #5 above], begot,
13. Zenobia [Theoclea], Queen of Palmyra 267-273, deposed; dc 290 AD, = (1) Septimius Odenathus, King of Palmyra [his 2nd]; (2) a Roman Senator [his 2nd],
14. Wahballtes [Vaballatus], sole surviving son of 1st husband (325), begot,
15. Odenathus (350)
16. Eusebius (375)
17. Flavianus (400)
18. Eusebius (430)
19. Diogenes (460) = Cyrina of Damascus
20. Theodora = Acacius (d.500), worked in a circus
21. Theodora, Empress (d.548) [her sisters were: Comitio and Anastasia]; = (1) Helebolus, a Syrian noble (2) Justinian 'The Great', Byzantine Emp. 527-565
22. Theodora [daughter], called simply "a Byzantine noble woman" by contemporary writers, who considered her illegitimate; = Anastasius, a Roman/Byzantine noble, she begot,
23. Johanes [John] = Georgia
24. Georgia = Areobindus [son of Anastasius by 2nd wife, Juliana, a Roman/Byzantine princess]
25. Juliana = Atanagildo, Visigoth Prince of Spain
26. Ardebasto = [...]godo of Burgundy
27. Ervigio, King of Spain 680-687 = Liubigotana
28. Aupais = Pepin II of Heristal, Majordomo of France, d.714
29. Charles "Martel", Duke of France 737-741; = Rotrude, daughter of St. Lievin, Bishop of Treves; begot
30. Pepin [III] "Le Korte", Majordomo and then King of France [usurper] 751-768; = Bertha "The White Lady" (d783), daughter of Caribert of Laon (d747) & Bertha (d735), sister of Clothaire IV, King of France; issue:
31. CHARLEMAGNE, Holy Roman Emperor 800 (d814); = Hildegarde of Swabia (d783) begot
32. Pepin, King of Italy (d.810) = Bertha of Toulouse, begot
33. Bernard, King of Italy (d.818) = Kunigunde of Austrasia (d835), begot
34. Pepin, Seigneur of Peronne et St Quentin (d.842) = Rothaide of Vermandois
35. Heribert I, Count of Vermandois (d902) = Bertha of Morvois
36. Heribert II, Count of Vermandois (d.943) = Liegarde [Alice], daughter of Robert I, King of France
37. Robert, Count of Troyes (d.967/75) = Adelaide de Challons,
38. Adelaide (d.978/82) = Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou (d987)
39. Ermengarde (d992) = Conan I "Le Tort", Duke of Brittany (d.994)
40. Judith (d.1017) = Richard II, Duke of Normandy (d1027)
41. Robert "Diablo" ["The Devil"], Duke of Normandy (d1035) ~ (1) Herleve [Arlette], daughter of Fulbert "The Tanner" of Falaise, wife of Herluin, Count of Conteville; =(1) Estrith (d.1034) [her 2nd], half-sister of King Canute of England and Denmark, begot by his mistress Herleve;
42. William "The Conqueror", King of England 1066 and Duke of Normandy, d.1087, = Mathilda (d.1083), daughter of Baldwin V, Count of Flanders

And from there you just follow the British line of succession through the Norman, Angevin (Plantagenet, Lancaster and Yorkist), Tudor, Stuart, Hanover, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha turn Windsor, to the present day and monarch :biggrin:

Russophile 12-02-2008 07:55 PM

V, from what I understood from the last Cleopatra (have a book, can't remember if I loaned it out! :arg: ) the Ptolomies knew that to be accepted they had to adopt and adapt to the Egyptians way of things, pagentry, gods, bloodlines.

iakynthi 12-03-2008 07:16 AM

I agree with Russo.But,to be precise,they actually "mixed" all those religious elements from Egypt(first of all),Asia and Greece.
Velasco,wow!Good job!! ;) :flowers:

iakynthi 12-03-2008 04:52 PM

It's a very important document:their King asking and believing what a non-Greek oracle says (the oracle of Siba in Egypt).A real turning point:from then on they started considering him a God...It's the first time in Greek history that worshiping a king is accepted.Which is something completely strange and unfamiliar to the Greek free spirit of the 5th-4th century BC.Needless to say,the "gates" were open for many other odd costumes and habbits to come...
By the way,another interesting book is "The Hellenistic World" written by Frank W. Walbank.

PS.I just read that Alexander's mother was named Cleopatra.If we're talking about Great Alexander,it was Olympiada.

norenxaq 12-04-2008 01:31 AM

to say the above lineage is speculative is putting it mildly. if the source is who I think it is, it is a combination of guesswork, wishful thinking and the speculation of another author

Gertrude86 12-04-2008 03:42 AM

I am writing a paper about the self-presentation of the Ptolemaic kings and queens. About the brother and sister marriage I have found the following theories:

The first theory is that the pharaohs already knew this kind of marriages. The second theory calls it a general Egyptian religious custom. The third theory describes it as a custom of the Persian kings and the last one as a Greek custom.[1] But which of these theories is true? According to Hermans (who wrote a book about this in Dutch) it is true that pharaohs married their sisters or half sisters sometimes. There is some evidence from this practice from 18th and 19th dynasty. So it is possible that the Ptolemy’s heard about this practice, the problem is however that this practice was not known anymore by the last pharaohs. So if it ever was a tradition it was not a tradition anymore by the time of the Ptolemy’s.[2]
About the second theory Hermans is not sure. It’s true that some Egyptian gods were married to their sisters. There is some evidence of commoners who married their sister, but this evidence is not really satisfying. It is possible that only the kings married their sisters, because they were seen as gods. But she’s not convinced that it was a real general religious practice. [3]

There is also some critique on the whole idea that the Ptolemy’s took over an Egyptian practice. The first three Ptolemaic kings reigned as Macedonian kings and saw the Egyptians as barbarians, according to Hermans. So why should they take over such an ancient practice?[4] I don’t think this argument makes sense, because the Ptolemy’s took over more traditions of the pharaohs. So they did not see all Egyptian traditions as
barbarian.
If there was no Egyptian tradition, than there must have been another example. Some historians think that it therefore had to be a Persian custom. The Seleucid kings also knew the practice so that’s an argument in favor of this theory. According to Hermans there must be more survey on this subject before we can determine or it is true or not. She thinks that the theory is at least as plausible as the theory that it is an Egyptian custom.[5]
Hermans thinks that it was certainly not a Greek custom. In the evidence from Greece and Macedonia we see that it was seen as a dubious practice there.

In other words the ancient historians do not know exactly were the practice of brother and sister marriages came from.

[1] R . Hermans, Het broer-zuster huwelijk in Romeins Egypte, (Amsterdam, 2007) 20 and 21

[2] Idem 21-26

[3] Idem 22-26

[4] Idem 26

[5] Idem 26 and 27

chaz 12-04-2008 04:05 AM

The mythological example set by Osiris and his sister Isis,and Set and his sister Neith were the models that were followed through many Dynasties. The incestuous relations could include marriage to the PerAh's (Pharaoh's) own mother if no sisters were available.

Menarue 12-04-2008 04:09 AM

I know nothing really about this, but in a book I read recently it said that the Egyptian "throne" could only be inherited by the female line so the only way for a young Prince to hold on to power was by marrying his sister . Is there any truth in this?

chaz 12-04-2008 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iakynthi (Post 862513)
Alexander himself accepted the prophecy (which wasn't clear of course) that he was the son of Ammon Ra,in other words,the son of a God...

It has been suggested that Egyptian religion was monotheistic,because all gods and godesses were representative of different aspects of the sun.Amun was the sun at night,the Egyptians were afraid of what the sun was doing then,since everything had been anthropomorphized, they thought that Amun might be up to no good.

Velasco 12-04-2008 06:39 AM

- Obviously I have no idea if the family tree I posted is true or not, and would welcome anyone who can prove or disprove it. Either way I find it highly interesting !

- Alexander the Great initially presented himself as a demi-God, the son of Zeus with a mortal woman . In typical Greek mythological fashion, Zeus had appeared either as a snake or in the form of King Philip, and layed with Olympias, Alexander's mother. At Alexander's instigation, Greek culture was spread throughout the East. The most important local divinities were associated with the Greek pantheon, especially the head or chief God with Zeus, with Alexander being in turn depicted as the son of that God (in the case of Egypt, Ammon-Ra).

- As for the Egyptian throne being inherited in the female line, not sure about...Most new dynasties were founded by men, usually Generals or viziers, without any close relation to the last Pharaoh of the preceeding dynasty. Although, there definitely seems to have been a preference for the succession of sons of Great Royal Wifes (ie, either the Pharaoh's sister, mother or daughter) instead of sons of mere concubines or foreign princesses. In the cases that the sons of concubines succeeded, they usyally married into the existing lineage.

Example: Thutmose I was the son of a military man and a commoner called Senseneb. He married Ahmose, very likely the sister of his predecessor Amenhotep I. Although some people reckon that he married her to secure the succession, Thutmose was associated with Amenhotep long before Amenhoetp's death, and his eldest son by Ahmose, Amenmose, was born during Amenhotep's reign. Unfortunately, both his sons by Ahmose died, leaving only the son of a "lesser" (non-royal) wife, Mutnofret. This son, Thutmose II, married his fully-royal sister, Hatshepsut, but again, they had no son.

Thutmose II had a son by a concubine Iset, Thutmose III, who married Hatshepsut's daughter Neferue. However, Hapshepsut usurped the throne and made herself Pharaoh, with Nefereu as her Queen (mother-daughter marriage?!). Neferue was possibly the mother of his eldest son Amenemhat, but he died young, as did Neferure, and the main line of the royal family died out.

So obviously the preference was for the sons of royal wives (always a sister/daughter of the Queen) and in their absence, for the sons of lesser wives married to royal princesses.

Velasco 12-04-2008 06:47 AM

Also from what I can tell, Ptolemy I and his descendants were the only surviving heirs of Alexander the Great.

Alexander's own son was put to death, as was his brother Philip and sisters Cynane, Thessalonike and Cleopatra.

Cynane married her cousin Amyntas and had one daughter, Adea/ Eurydice, who married her half-brother Philip. They were all put to death and had no issue.

Thessalonike had issue but they all killed each other off.

Cleopatra was Alexander's only full sister and married their uncle, King Alexander I of Epirus, they had two children: Neoptolemus II of Epirus and Cadmeia. I have no idea what became of them. After refusing a whole bunch of marriage offers from Alexander's generals, Cleopatra eventually agreed to marry Ptolemy I Soter (her half-brother) but was captured, imprisoned and died.

Franz 12-04-2008 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velasco (Post 862829)
- Obviously I have no idea if the family tree I posted is true or not, and would welcome anyone who can prove or disprove it. Either way I find it highly interesting !

Once upon a time it was very fashionable to follow up a family tree from the ancient world to middle-age kings in Europe.
So maybe this family-tree is a nice story.

chaz 12-04-2008 07:20 AM

[quote=Franz;862842]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Velasco (Post 862829)
- Obviously I have no idea if the family tree I posted is true or not, and would welcome anyone who can prove or disprove it. Either way I find it highly interesting !

Once upon a time it was very fashionable to follow up a family tree from the ancient world to middle-age kings in Europe.
So maybe this family-tree is a nice story.

In more remote times individuals would include gods and godesses in their family trees. The Caesars included Etruscan Kings in their lineage,saying that they were descended from Lars Porsena and the Tarquins,which was most likely a fiction. And fictional descent from Romulus and Remus was popular.

bbb 12-05-2008 10:03 AM

Queen Cleopatra

"Because Caesarion was Julius Caesar's son and might pose a threat to Octavian's power, Octavian had the boy strangled by his tutor. Cleopatra's other children were sent to Rome to be raised by Octavia. Cleopatra Selene married King Juba II of Mauretania and had two children, Ptolemy and Drusilla. No one knows what happened to Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus. "

i always found it facinating Octavia raised Antony's children with Cleopatra and wondered if she was a kind, open hearted woman or had no choice.

Velasco 12-05-2008 10:23 AM

She probably didn't have much to do with them, as far as I know most royal and noble ladies from Ancient times to recently (ie, last century) had little to do with the actual day-to-day care and education of their children. Tutors, nannies, governesses, and slaves did most of the parenting ;)

Russophile 12-05-2008 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velasco (Post 862829)
Thutmose II had a son by a concubine Iset, Thutmose III, who married Hatshepsut's daughter Neferue. However, Hapshepsut usurped the throne and made herself Pharaoh, with Nefereu as her Queen (mother-daughter marriage?!). Neferue was possibly the mother of his eldest son Amenemhat, but he died young, as did Neferure, and the main line of the royal family died out.

So obviously the preference was for the sons of royal wives (always a sister/daughter of the Queen) and in their absence, for the sons of lesser wives married to royal princesses.

But Hatshepsut ruled as a man, even wearing the beard.

chaz 12-06-2008 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile (Post 863613)
But Hatshepsut ruled as a man, even wearing the beard.

Yes but all Egyptian Pharoahs wore the false beards.Body hair of any kind was thought to be unclean so it was always removed. False beards for men and wigs for the ladies.:rofl:

Russophile 12-07-2008 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaz (Post 863684)
Yes but all Egyptian Pharoahs wore the false beards.Body hair of any kind was thought to be unclean so it was always removed. False beards for men and wigs for the ladies.:rofl:

Not only was it "unclean" but it SMELLED!! So they shaved and waxed. Very modern thinking if you as me! :biggrin:

Shaiya 12-07-2008 02:32 AM

Actually, ladies usually kept their hair, unless they were very high status and had expensive head gear (such as Nefertiti's crown) or large intricate wigs that required head shaving.

Also guys often kept their head hair too, though it was kept very short and leaving the ears exposed until it thinned and began to bald at which point they would shave it.

chaz 12-07-2008 05:35 AM

Intermediate Periods
 
During the Intermediate Periods (3) those rules may have been abandoned. The first two intermediate periods were when Egypt was ruled by Semitic peoples,they were heavily endowed with natural beards, which held great significance for them.

Russophile 12-07-2008 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaiya (Post 864051)
Actually, ladies usually kept their hair, unless they were very high status and had expensive head gear (such as Nefertiti's crown) or large intricate wigs that required head shaving.

Also guys often kept their head hair too, though it was kept very short and leaving the ears exposed until it thinned and began to bald at which point they would shave it.

Here's a funny little site on this:
Get Waxing

Shaiya 12-07-2008 11:25 PM

^That's kinda creepy. I'm thinking like shiny barbie dolls with lots of crazy eyeliner but no hair.

I think they usually kept their hair, unless it bothered them a lot, in which case they would shave it and replace it with wigs. There are benefits to being bald in the desert. Ancient Egyptian Hairstyles

Anyway, the Ptolemies were seriously wack. Maybe it was cuz of the inbreeding, but they just kept killing their brothers/husbands, sisters/wives, mothers, fathers, half-siblings and anyone else that they didn't like for some particular reason.

Russophile 12-08-2008 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaiya (Post 864488)

Anyway, the Ptolemies were seriously wack. Maybe it was cuz of the inbreeding, but they just kept killing their brothers/husbands, sisters/wives, mothers, fathers, half-siblings and anyone else that they didn't like for some particular reason.

Power. It was all about power and who ruled. Very similar to their Roman cousins --Messalina and Agrippina the Younger spring to mind--. And don't forget how the Borgia's wheeled and dealed.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

chaz 12-09-2008 07:32 AM

Death and Classical Pagans
 
Don't forget, that attitudes about death were very different in Hellenistic and Classical civilizations, from our modern attitudes .:whistling:

chaz 12-10-2008 09:37 AM

Perfumed Resin
 
You see in many pictorial representations of Egyptian dancing girls, that they would wear conical blocks of perfumed resin atop their heads. During performance in the Egyptian heat,these blocks would melt giving off pleasant odors and a sheen to the skin and hair.

chaz 12-10-2008 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile (Post 864034)
Not only was it "unclean" but it SMELLED!! So they shaved and waxed. Very modern thinking if you as me! :biggrin:

Not to mention vermin infestation.

Menarue 12-10-2008 09:43 AM

Doesn´t sound like much fun to me.... Probably the elusive Patchouli that everyone has heard about but not many people get to know exactly what it is.

chaz 12-11-2008 05:18 AM

No!no!no!
 
The glistening perfumed resin on their lovely dark skins,scent may have been sandalwood perfume (most dancing girls in Egypt were Nubian). Patchouli comes from India.

Russophile 12-12-2008 01:36 PM

Speaking of Nubia, isn't that where the pyramids first came from?

Menarue 12-12-2008 04:15 PM

Oh the perfume palace of Cairo, you don´t want perfume but before you know where you are or what time it is, you are in the middle of it being squirted with all kinds of strange smells with men behind every curtain (it seems) to stop you leaving without buying some. I remember all of them managed to say "Patchouli" as they proferred these amazingly shaped bottles at us. I went with a party of people but they managed to separate us and when we managed to get out we were all clutching an identical little bottle supposedly full to the brim with patchouli.....and now I hear that it is Indian!!! You mean to say our little whiff of the real Cairo was Indian?? What a let down.

chaz 12-12-2008 04:15 PM

Ku****e Rulers of Egypt
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile (Post 866396)
Speaking of Nubia, isn't that where the pyramids first came from?

Called Kush, there were pyramids on a much smaller scale during the Kush.ite Merotic Dynasty. The Kush and Nubians, we call Sudanese and Somali today. Actually the Kush.ite kingdom patterened itself very closely on Egyptian art, culture and religion. During theXXV Egyptian Dynasty, the Egyptians invited the kings of Kush to come and rule them. The most famous of the Kush.ite Pharoahs was Taharqa the "builder." But even though the Nubian Kush stretches back in time to remote ages the Pyramids in Nubian Kush are much younger than the Old Kingdom pyramids in Egypt :graduate:.

The placement of the period,in the center of the word Kush.ite was done in order to override the automatic censor.

Russophile 12-12-2008 07:13 PM

I thought they were older. There was some documentary I can't remember that went up the blue nile and they had found a pyramid that was older. Small one, though. I'll have to find that.
So Chaz, the Scholar, what happened that the Sudenese have fallen into genocide? They seemed to be a proud empire once upon a time. It is certainly a gorgeous area in which to live.

chaz 12-12-2008 07:34 PM

I cannot gainsay what you say about an older Nubian Pyramid, I missed the program you referred to.

Warren 12-13-2008 04:10 AM

Here is an interesting link - with photos! - that can shed some light on the subject:

Ancient Nubian Pyramids
.

chaz 12-13-2008 05:52 AM

Kings of Kush
 
There are 2 versions of how the Kings of Kush came to rule Egypt one by conquest then peacefully and by invitation,I chose the latter.





Nice pics Warren!

Lenora 07-09-2011 01:10 PM

As I 've read Cleopatra had a daughter who survived,the lineage was following:
Cleopatra VII,the Queen of Egypt
Cleopatra Selena,Queen of Mauritania(her daughter)
Ptolemy of Mauritania
Drusilla of Mauritania
The other details and genealogy seem to have lost in history and legend
But Zenobya of Palmira claimed to be her descendant,are there any links that could provide the list of their supposed descendants?

norenxaq 07-10-2011 01:03 PM

Settipani's work on early Mediaeval families from Roman ancestors has this. Note: it is HIGHLY speculative.

however, a version of it might be online, if one looked

Kasumi 07-13-2011 02:00 AM

Big Cleopatra exhibit to rule at Milwaukee Public Museum - JSOnline
The traveling exhibit will feature 150 artifacts associated with the famed Cleopatra VII, the queen who lived from 69 B.C. to 30 B.C. and earned a permanent place in history by becoming the lover of two Roman leaders: Julius Caesar and Mark Antony.

Milwaukee Public Museum to Host Cleopatra Exhibit - ABC News

Kasumi 08-20-2011 09:14 AM

Ancient Egypt queen 'killed by poison in flask' - The Independent
German researchers have discovered a carcinogenic substance in a flask believed to have belonged to Queen Hatshepsut, who ruled Egypt 3,500 years ago, raising the possibility that she may have accidentally poisoned herself.

Did Skin Cream Kill Egypt’s Queen Hatshepsut?

Meraude 08-21-2011 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velasco (Post 861971)
What I don't understand is, why did the Greek Ptolemy family suddenly embrace Ancient Egyptian practice of royal incest? And from that point on, marry their own siblings, in some cases father-daughter marriages, and even multiple marriages (ie, two brothers married to the same sister, simultaneously.

It's not only the Egyptian royal history that is full of incest, so is both the Egyptian and Greek mythologies. If being familiar with myths and stories full of incest I wouldn't think that the step to actually marrying a family member is that far away, especially when living in a country where royal incest was accepted and almost expected.

An Ard Ri 09-11-2013 05:19 AM

What Did Cleopatra Look Like?

What Did Cleopatra Look Like?

lucien 09-11-2013 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasumi (Post 1305504)
Ancient Egypt queen 'killed by poison in flask' - The Independent
German researchers have discovered a carcinogenic substance in a flask believed to have belonged to Queen Hatshepsut, who ruled Egypt 3,500 years ago, raising the possibility that she may have accidentally poisoned herself.

Did Skin Cream Kill Egypt’s Queen Hatshepsut?


I don't know if that would be accidental,or due to her dentals..

In the mummy rooms of the Egyptian Museum in Cairo,I was eye to eye with Seti,Ramses II,Hatshepsut and Thutmosis III.

A "note" next to the remains of Hatshepsut said:Hatshepsut was an obese woman with toothache".....Just like that and just that.Totally
denying who she had been,just remembered as an obese woman with toothache...You'd wish people would remember you for a tad more then that....

The Egyptian Museum


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._7837169_n.jpg



Sakkarah,Farao Djoser's pyramid,5000 years of history look upon you...Build by the famous Imhotep:


https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._8217404_n.jpg


Vast square and remains of funerary temples in front of the pyramid at Sakkarah


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._6073489_n.jpg




https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._1518605_n.jpg


https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3933357_n.jpg

All pics are my own and made by me.

lucien 09-11-2013 07:38 AM

One of two shaft used for the funeral of Farao Djoser,as Imhotep had them designed as the actual entrance of the Pyramid..!!..Still intact both shafts are 20 meters deep and a long long corridor leads from the bottom to the pyramid underneath the entire lenght of the square as shown in the pics above.

Mindboggling but true nevertheless,Imhotep designed that.There is NO other entrance into the pyramid...Not that one could enter,it needs stiff renovation/preservation as the pics below show...Nevertheless,I never saw anything else that stood arround for 7213 years..

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h...0_236631_n.jpg


https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h...3_351035_n.jpg



Across the square from the pyramid to the shafts


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._6073489_n.jpg

lucien 09-11-2013 07:44 AM

Ancient Egypt
 
https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._1284175_n.jpg



https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3371953_n.jpg



https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._1518605_n.jpg


All at Sakkarah,much more interesting and mindblowing then Gizeh,allthough impressive,this captures the mind even more...I think.





https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3136284_n.jpg



https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._5085199_n.jpg


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3277504_n.jpg

lucien 09-11-2013 07:46 AM

Ancien Egypt
 
Huge statue of Ramses II at Memphis


https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._6164674_n.jpg

All my own pics made by me,feel free to use them if you like.

lucien 09-11-2013 07:51 AM

At the Pyramids of Gizeh


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._4489855_n.jpg


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h...9_623561_n.jpg


The white structure at the bottom of Cheops pyramid houses the sunboat of the Farao


Remnants of Tombs and temples in the vicinity of the Pyramids





https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._5005710_n.jpg

lucien 09-11-2013 07:55 AM

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._7034898_n.jpg


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._5569215_n.jpg





https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3321966_n.jpg


Chefren's pyramid


https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._7089098_n.jpg


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._1332013_n.jpg


View towards Cairo from the plateau.Closeby a cemetery as even to this day Egyptians like to be buried close to their Farao's.

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._7105788_n.jpg



https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._6537866_n.jpg

lucien 09-11-2013 08:00 AM

Ancient Egypt
 
Too busy and too touristy...The Sfinx:






https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3470302_n.jpg


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._3857226_n.jpg



All is set and ready for the evening Sound and Light show at Gizeh


https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._1630575_n.jpg

An Ard Ri 01-05-2015 06:34 AM

Queen Khentakawess III's tomb found in Egypt

BBC News - Queen Khentakawess III's tomb found in Egypt

Roslyn 01-05-2015 06:47 AM

:previous: How very interesting! :flowers:

An Ard Ri 08-11-2015 01:58 PM

Has Queen Nefertiti been found behind King Tut's tomb?

Has Queen Nefertiti been found behind Tutankhamun's tomb? | Daily Mail Online

An Ard Ri 08-12-2015 04:27 PM

10 Little-Known Facts About Cleopatra

10 Little-Known Facts About Cleopatra — History in the Headlines

Lee-Z 08-12-2015 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1809216)
Has Queen Nefertiti been found behind King Tut's tomb?

Has Queen Nefertiti been found behind Tutankhamun's tomb? | Daily Mail Online

This would be huge, but i understand from other articles that other egyptologists have their doubts.. personally i hope that she will be found

Irish Lady 08-12-2015 08:37 PM

:previous:Oh I am hoping this is true, being an amateur Egyptologist and love studying and reading the subject, this in my lifetime would be such a joy to see. Imagine all the wonders and discoveries if so........Zahi Hawass would be in heaven if he could have been there, it is a shame that he is no longer in control of the Antiquities Dept for he has worked and devoted his life to preserving the lost items of ancient Egypt. If you see more info on this please let us know...and I will do the same. Thank You.

MissByrd 08-12-2015 09:20 PM

I hope it's true and that there will be a move forward to verify. How incredible it could be to actually find the tomb of Nefertiti. What an interesting face she had.

An Ard Ri 09-28-2015 01:44 PM

The female 'kings' of ancient Egypt

The female 'kings' of ancient Egypt | History Extra

An Ard Ri 11-28-2015 06:24 AM

Scans reveal high chance of secret chamber as search continues for Nefertiti's tomb

Scans reveal high chance of secret chamber as search continues for Nefertiti's tomb - ITV News

An Ard Ri 01-25-2016 01:25 PM

What killed Tutankhamun?

What killed Tutankhamun? | History Extra

An Ard Ri 02-02-2016 01:35 PM

Did climate change end the reign of the pharaohs? Queen's tomb could shed light on 'dark period' of ancient Egypt 4,600 years ago


Ancient Egyptian Queen Khentkaus III's tomb sheds light on 'black period' | Daily Mail Online

An Ard Ri 05-09-2016 09:35 AM

Egyptologists clash over claims of hidden chambers in Tutankhamun's tomb

Egyptologists clash over claims of 'hidden chambers' in Tutankhamun's tomb | Daily Mail Online

eya 03-17-2017 02:47 AM

Egypt Pharaoh statue 'not Ramses II but different ruler' - BBC News

"An ancient statue which was pulled from the mud in Cairo is not the Pharaoh Ramses II, but could be another king, Egypt's antiquities minister has said."

Excavation digs up statue that could be King Tut's grandma | Daily Mail Online

"Massive beautifully carved statue of the quuen believed to be King Tutankhamun's grandmother unearthed along the Nile"

eya 05-25-2017 01:36 AM

A CHARIOT and funeral bed belonging to ancient Egypt's boy-king Tutankhamun were safely moved yesterday across Cairo to a new museum that Egypt hopes will lure back wary tourists.

Tutankhamun's belongings moved to new Egyptian museum to lure tourists to Cairo | World | News | Express.co.uk

King Tut's bed moved to Grand Egyptian Museum | Daily Mail Online

Osipi 05-25-2017 01:51 AM

I've read about that new museum that is in the works and from what I've seen, its somewhere I'd really like to spend a month or two or more. :biggrin:

Did you know that the oldest book in the world comes from 3550 BCE in the 5th dynasty of these ancient people of what we know as Egypt? Its been surmised that the actual content may be a lot older but these papyri were used as kind of a moral instruction on how to live one's life as we would find today in a Sunday school class or a code of ethics.

Its amazing to read and know that these instructions far precede not only the Old Testament but also Babylon's Code of Hammurabi.

It is available for reading in full at this website:
https://archive.org/stream/theinstru...ut/pg30508.txt

norenxaq 05-26-2017 01:04 AM

5th dynasty was about a thousand years later

Countessmeout 05-26-2017 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi (Post 1989021)
I've read about that new museum that is in the works and from what I've seen, its somewhere I'd really like to spend a month or two or more. :biggrin:

Did you know that the oldest book in the world comes from 3550 BCE in the 5th dynasty of these ancient people of what we know as Egypt? Its been surmised that the actual content may be a lot older but these papyri were used as kind of a moral instruction on how to live one's life as we would find today in a Sunday school class or a code of ethics.

Its amazing to read and know that these instructions far precede not only the Old Testament but also Babylon's Code of Hammurabi.

It is available for reading in full at this website:
https://archive.org/stream/theinstru...ut/pg30508.txt

It's old. But certainly not that old. 3550 bce predates the dynastic era, not alone the fifth dynasty. You are correct though, the book dates to the 5th dynasty. You are just off by a thousand years.

The man who is said to have written it was vizier to the second last ruler of the fifth dynasty, Dyjedkare. He was ruler in 2414-2375. The script would have been written some where around then.

lucien 05-28-2017 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1989009)
A CHARIOT and funeral bed belonging to ancient Egypt's boy-king Tutankhamun were safely moved yesterday across Cairo to a new museum that Egypt hopes will lure back wary tourists.

Tutankhamun's belongings moved to new Egyptian museum to lure tourists to Cairo | World | News | Express.co.uk

King Tut's bed moved to Grand Egyptian Museum | Daily Mail Online

Was about time the Museum was finished and ready to receive the splendours of ancient Egypt.When I visited the site of the new Museum 9 years ago I already thought oh well,that won't be too long before it opens...But then that proved wrong as Egypt had to deal with some change and violence over the years putting works on hold several times.

The venue is beautifull,impressive,overlooking the Pyramids from the hill,
and one is overcome with the intense sensation that on and under this sand lies a massive remnant of a time that saw a much more civilised world then the one we crawl around on these days.

As for tourists,they'll have to wipe out some sort of trash that is currently messing up on Egypt's soil,and only then tourists will flock down safely on this dusty but incredibly mysterious city again.

Osipi 05-28-2017 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucien (Post 1989694)
The venue is beautifull,impressive,overlooking the Pyramids from the hill, and one is overcome with the intense sensation that on and under this sand lies a massive remnant of a time that saw a much more civilised world then the one we crawl around on these days.

Thank you, Lucien, for putting my thoughts into words much more eloquently than I could and I totally agree.

One thing I am finding out through all the information I've been inhaling over the past decades in regards to these ancient peoples is that, unlike our current materialistic and physically absorbed societies, day to day life was much more centered around their spiritual lives and a moral way of living their lives.

These people had an extensive wealth of knowledge some of which we're just rediscovering today. One of the biggest crimes against humanity I think was the burning of the library at Alexandria. If only we could read those ancient scrolls today we probably would have a totally different outlook on this ancient land.

eya 07-20-2017 01:08 AM

Archaeologists believe Tutankhamun's wife has been found | Daily Mail Online

Archaeologists believe that found the tomb of Tutankhamun wife Anhkesenamun

M. Payton 07-20-2017 01:44 AM

Thanks for that article, I hope there is updates of this search for this is one subject I enjoy reading about.:smile:

LauraS3514 07-20-2017 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 2004405)
Archaeologists believe Tutankhamun's wife has been found | Daily Mail Online

Archaeologists believe that found the tomb of Tutankhamun wife Anhkesenamun

Zahi Hawass has since backed off from the claim a bit. He now says there "may not" be anything there and that excavations will need to be done at a future date.

M. Payton 07-20-2017 05:39 PM

Thank you for the update Laura. I always like Zahi Hawass for he was such a strong man when he was the head of the Antiquities Dept. He worked very hard to keep the artifacts in Egypt where they belong. There has always been lots of criticism about him yet he really protected the ancient history of his home land and for that I give him tons of credit. In reading about this culture and the history, I see Zahi Hawass as one of the pharaoh's of the past working to protect his kingdom.

Let's hope that they don't take years to start doing something that can be done now......

If you get any new info I would really appreciate hearing it, this is one of my favorite reading materials.

eya 09-10-2017 05:11 AM

Tomb of Pharoah's goldsmith who died 3,500 years ago is discovered in Luxor in ancient civil service cemetery


M. Payton 09-10-2017 02:53 PM

:previous:
Thank you Eya for the news,

This is such thrilling news and just fabulous that there is a new discovery in ancient Egypt. Being someone who is an amateur Egyptologist any news of a discovery brings forth new info about the ancient world to light and the more we can learn from them.

Osipi 09-10-2017 03:06 PM

:previous: Ditto on what M. Payton said!

The more that is found, the more of an understanding of what these people that lived in very ancient times we have.

As Sarah Parcak, an American archaeologist says, "Less than 1 percent of ancient Egypt has been discovered and excavated. With population pressures, urbanization, and modernization encroaching, we're in a race against time."

eya 11-16-2017 01:41 AM

Egypt opened a exhibition with unseen King Tut artifacts

Egypt displays previously unseen King Tut artifacts | Daily Mail Online

M. Payton 11-18-2017 05:14 AM

Thank you Eya, great article and very interesting. I remember the treasures of King Tut back in 1970 sometime as I lived in Chicago then and had the opportunity to see the exhibit 3 times. What a thrill it was to see and wish I could go to Egypt and see the wonders of the ancient world....someday!:smile:

eya 01-12-2018 10:53 AM

A throne made from Meteorites help the Pharaoh "move to the next life"

Is there a throne of meteorites inside the Great Pyramid? | Daily Mail Online

Osipi 01-12-2018 11:33 AM

If there was such a throne, it would have been something that has at least been linked to by myths and legends. As the Great Pyramid was not ever used as a tomb, there is no reason to think that any kind of a throne would be in existence somewhere in there. The Great Pyramid and is two companions at Giza remain a huge source of study and is one I'm vastly interested in.

The only reference that may be attributed to a meteorite would be the much honored Ben-Ben Stone which was housed in the sun temple located in the City of Heliopolis, dedicated to the solar deity Ra

eya 01-17-2018 03:55 PM

Archaeologists begin dig for the body of Ankhesenamun

Has Tutankhamun's tragic teenage wife finally been found? | Daily Mail Online

Mirabel 01-17-2018 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 2064114)
Archaeologists begin dig for the body of Ankhesenamun

Has Tutankhamun's tragic teenage wife finally been found? | Daily Mail Online

That article is both contradictory and confusing.
Especially the parts about parentage.

Osipi 01-17-2018 04:35 PM

If the dig does prove to uncover Ankhesenamun's mummy, it will be a major find and be invaluable to the research going on into the Amarna dynasty. Ankhesenamun was not only wife to Tutankhamun, but also the daughter of his father, Akhenaten and although not proven, Nefertiti.

eya 03-27-2018 01:41 AM

Rare 3,500 year-old sculpture of female Pharaoh Hatshepsut is found

Egyptian artwork of female pharaoh Hatshepsut is found | Daily Mail Online

WHO WAS QUEEN HATSHEPSUT?** | Daily Mail Online

Osipi 03-27-2018 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 2086159)

Very interesting article and thanks for finding it, eya. It kind of coincides with a book I'm reading that goes into depth about discoveries and finds made throughout Egypt. From what I have been reading, a lot of finds are stashed away in dark corners in museums collecting dust.

The book I'm reading is called "The Shadow King: The Bizarre Afterlife of King Tut's Mummy" by Jo Marchant.

Osipi 03-27-2018 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirabel (Post 2064127)
That article is both contradictory and confusing.
Especially the parts about parentage.

One thing that does confuse a lot of modern sensibilities is that it is not generally known that the marriage practices within the royal houses remained within the family. Fathers married daughters and brothers married sisters and there was a lot of inbreeding going on.

Marriage Practices

M. Payton 03-27-2018 05:52 PM

Many *Thank You's* Eya for posting that information on Hatshepsut. She has always been one of my very favorite females in ancient history. I just got a book on her, Hatchepsut by Joyce Tyldesley and it is a very detailed book, the kind that you need just the right amount of consternation with pen and paper in hand to take notes so that the notes go into my computer. I do that with these kind of books, so enjoyable to read about her.

eya 04-11-2018 11:25 AM

Archaeologists and scientists restoring an ancient boat were buried in pits next to Pharaoh Khufu’s Great Pyramid at Giza.

Rebuilding history - restoring a pharaoh’s ancient boat - BBC News

M. Payton 04-11-2018 12:03 PM

:flowers:Eya,

Many Thank You's for this, how interesting and what is amazing is that the ancient people actually left *instructions* for people in the after life to build the boat again........that just made me reread the article...darn they did not leave anything to chance did they.....amazing group of ancients there I would say.....I am currently working on a book of *Cleopatras*, not the famous one but the name and where it came from and all named before and after The Cleopatra as we know her. A very technical book and not easy to read for a layperson such as me.

lucien 04-11-2018 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 2086159)
Rare 3,500 year-old sculpture of female Pharaoh Hatshepsut is found



WHO WAS QUEEN HATSHEPSUT?** | Daily Mail Online

:previous::previous:

When I was in the Royal Mummy room at the old Egyptian Museum some years ago standing next to Queen Hatshepsut there was a smal etikette attached to her glass coffin there saying Queen Hatshepsut was "an obese woman with a toothake...I've never been more dumbfounded as to why on earth anyone at that respectable museum would give a discription like that for a Lady of her stature.

Another detail..she was laying between Tuthmoses III and Ramses II..oh history...

eya 05-07-2018 04:37 AM

Tutankhamun "secret chamber" does not exist, researchers find

No secret chambers behind ancient Egypt's young king... | Daily Mail Online

Radar scans 'prove there are NO hidden burial chambers' in King Tutankhamun's tomb | Daily Mail Online

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...tanntp&ffid=gz

Osipi 08-13-2018 12:03 PM

Another article describing the find of the second sphinx. They're going to be taking their time to uncover this one as they want to ensure that the environmental climate won't damage it.

https://egyptianstreets.com/2018/08/...ered-in-luxor/

eya 09-02-2018 10:56 AM

Another discover in Egypt

Newly-unearthed village found in Egypt's Nile Delta 'predated pharaohs', archaeologists say | Daily Mail Online

Osipi 09-16-2018 07:06 AM

Just a note for those of you that are interested in ancient civilizations. One of the websites I frequent for information and suggestions for books to read called Ancient Origins now has a magazine out. Read the first edition for free on the website.

https://trailer.web-view.net/Show/0X...B13E48CCAB.htm

eya 09-16-2018 10:02 AM

New discover , a sphinx, made of sandstone at an ancient temple

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-temple.html

eya 11-24-2018 11:43 AM

A carved black wooden sarcophagus inlaid with gilded sheets, dating to Egypt's Late period (7th-4th century BC) discovered by an Egyptian archaelogical mission at Al-Assasif necropolis on the west bank of the Nile north of the southern Egyptian city of Luxor.

https://www.belgaimage.be/#/gallery/6371658


Article

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iscovered.html

M. Payton 11-24-2018 05:50 PM

:previous:
Thanks a million Eya for this information. How wonderful of this find and I strongly believe there is so much more out there to be found regarding the Ancient Egyptians. Does any one know who this is and what dynasty it came from? Who was the pharaoh? Please keep me informed if you find any more information.:flowers::flowers::flowers:

eya 12-16-2018 07:53 AM

Newly discovered tomb in Saqqara, Giza, Egypt

https://www.rexfeatures.com/livefeed..._saqqara,_giza

An Ard Ri 12-16-2018 07:58 AM

Here's some further information on the 4,400-year-old tomb, thought to be the final resting place of a high priest, has been discovered in Egypt :previous:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-mi...und-in-saqqara

M. Payton 12-16-2018 08:18 AM

Thank you Eya and AAR so very much for sharing this, what a thrilling find this is and I am keeping an eye out for what comes next. I truly believe that there are more tombs of the ancient Egyptians and the royal families to be found, the surface has been scratched only and in time hopefully the powers to be can dig deeper into the hills and sand........so much to learn from this tomb and those statues are just gorgeous, the colors still vivid today from thousands of years ago........this is very exciting for the amateur Egyptologist. :flowers::flowers:


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