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Duchess Ravenna 10-12-2008 07:55 PM

Terms of Endearment
 
If, say, one happens to be really close and long-standing friends with QEII, for instance, does one get to call her "Lilibet" in private moments? Or is that out of line even for close personal friends and family who've known her for ages?

I seem to recall Marina Ogilvy addressing her as Cousin Lilibet in a letter when there was all that kerfuffle some years back, but I could be mistaken...

How do other monarchs and up-there royals feel about first-name basis?

Odette 10-12-2008 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess Ravenna (Post 836496)
If, say, one happens to be really close and long-standing friends with QEII, for instance, does one get to call her "Lilibet" in private moments? Or is that out of line even for close personal friends and family who've known her for ages?

I seem to recall Marina Ogilvy addressing her as Cousin Lilibet in a letter when there was all that kerfuffle some years back, but I could be mistaken...

How do other monarchs and up-there royals feel about first-name basis?


I have read numerous times that the only one who can now call her Lillibet is Princess Alexandra. (Perhaps besides Prince Philip) I doubt Marina would ever address her as cousin Lillibet.

Duchess Ravenna 10-12-2008 10:25 PM

It was a letter that Marina Ogilvy sent her in response to a big uproar over Marina's wedding, IIRC. HM had granted the customary formal permission to marry, but pointedly did not call Marina "my trusty and well-beloved cousin", which prompted the letter in which Marina apologized and addressed HM as Cousin Lilibet. I think the blowup was over Marina marrying an "unsuitable" person and putting private pictures and family business in the paper, or selling photo rights? Maybe someone else will remember better than I do.

Aren't there any other close friends privileged to call her that? Or members of, say, the Mountbatten family? Just curious...

Odette 10-12-2008 11:13 PM

Oh I remember the scandal Marina caused with the Mowatt guy and all the brouhaha that swirled around her. I do not recall reading about any letters she may have exchanged with the Queen and how they addressed each other.

Winnie 10-12-2008 11:54 PM

Wasn't there something in the Diary/journal of Queen Victoria which, on the death of her dear Albert, wrote "Now no one is alive who will ever be able to call me by my name"? Or was that quote "made-up" by some news media person as a human interest story?

Duchess Ravenna 10-14-2008 11:59 PM

Oh, that's really sad, if true. Heck, even if made up. Poor dear Queen V...I never really thought of it, but yeah, I guess that would have been the case.

But Marina's letter was indeed published. Perhaps in one of the royal fan mags, like Majesty or Royalty? I absolutely did read it. But that was some scolding, not to be called "trusty and well-beloved".

What has Marina been up to in the years since?

Odette 10-15-2008 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess Ravenna (Post 837617)
Oh, that's really sad, if true. Heck, even if made up. Poor dear Queen V...I never really thought of it, but yeah, I guess that would have been the case.

But Marina's letter was indeed published. Perhaps in one of the royal fan mags, like Majesty or Royalty? I absolutely did read it. But that was some scolding, not to be called "trusty and well-beloved".

What has Marina been up to in the years since?

I bumped on a thread in these forums that relates to her doings.
If you come across that letter it would be lovely to read it. She caused quite a scandal in her youth.

Jo of Palatine 10-15-2008 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnie (Post 836528)
Wasn't there something in the Diary/journal of Queen Victoria which, on the death of her dear Albert, wrote "Now no one is alive who will ever be able to call me by my name"? Or was that quote "made-up" by some news media person as a human interest story?

If so, it should be said that the "name" queen Victoria referred to was probably her first name Alexandrina. IIRC prince Albert called her "Drina" but when she became queen all others switched over to "Victoria"except her mother, her uncle Leopold and maybe Baroness Lehzen, her former governess. All those died before Albert, so the sentence would make sense.

Denville 04-07-2018 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine (Post 837669)
If so, it should be said that the "name" queen Victoria referred to was probably her first name Alexandrina. IIRC prince Albert called her "Drina" but when she became queen all others switched over to "Victoria"except her mother, her uncle Leopold and maybe Baroness Lehzen, her former governess. All those died before Albert, so the sentence would make sense.

IIRC she said "there si no one now who can call me Victoria".. NOT Drina as that was only her name in early childhood. But Albert and probably her mother were the only people who would cal her by her own name.. and her mother died, then a little later so did Albert.

HRHBerengaria 06-14-2021 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duchess Ravenna (Post 836518)
It was a letter that Marina Ogilvy sent her in response to a big uproar over Marina's wedding, IIRC. HM had granted the customary formal permission to marry, but pointedly did not call Marina "my trusty and well-beloved cousin", which prompted the letter in which Marina apologized and addressed HM as Cousin Lilibet. I think the blowup was over Marina marrying an "unsuitable" person and putting private pictures and family business in the paper, or selling photo rights? Maybe someone else will remember better than I do.

Aren't there any other close friends privileged to call her that? Or members of, say, the Mountbatten family? Just curious...


I remember this. It was considered highly disrespectful that Marina sent the queen an open letter in a tabloid address to "cousin Lillibet"

HRHBerengaria 06-14-2021 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denville (Post 2090642)
IIRC she said "there si no one now who can call me Victoria".. NOT Drina as that was only her name in early childhood. But Albert and probably her mother were the only people who would cal her by her own name.. and her mother died, then a little later so did Albert.

Of course her older half sister Feodora didn't die until 1872. Maybe she meant nobody living in the UK?

Iluvbertie 06-14-2021 10:06 PM

Victoria still had living first cousins - her cousin George of Cambridge didn't die until after she did but either he wasn't allowed to call her Victoria or he didn't count.

I would hope that Elizabeth doesn't insist on her first cousins calling her only Your Majesty or Ma'am when in private.

Denville 06-15-2021 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 2408317)
Victoria still had living first cousins - her cousin George of Cambridge didn't die until after she did but either he wasn't allowed to call her Victoria or he didn't count.

I would hope that Elizabeth doesn't insist on her first cousins calling her only Your Majesty or Ma'am when in private.

Possibly he didn't call her Victoria after she became queen.... or perhaps she didn't mean it literally, that after Al's death noone would call her Victoria.. just that she'd lost the person she was most intimate with....
I dont think that the present queen woud be so formal but she was born a century after Victoria.... so its not that likley...

Osipi 06-15-2021 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 2408317)
Victoria still had living first cousins - her cousin George of Cambridge didn't die until after she did but either he wasn't allowed to call her Victoria or he didn't count.

I would hope that Elizabeth doesn't insist on her first cousins calling her only Your Majesty or Ma'am when in private.

From what I gather, the Queen's family still curtsy to her the first time they see her in the day but other than that, I think they call her by their own personal names for her such as Mama, Gan-Gan, Granny or Aunt Lilibet in private settings. In private though, they do sometimes stick to protocol for events such as the Christmas Eve dinner where they all arrive according to precedence and the Queen arrives and sits down last and the meal begins. I imagine they don't do this out in the grounds of Balmoral having a BBQ though. I think it depends on what the situation calls for.

Denville 06-15-2021 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi (Post 2408396)
From what I gather, the Queen's family still curtsy to her the first time they see her in the day but other than that, I think they call her by their own personal names for her such as Mama, Gan-Gan, Granny or Aunt Lilibet in private settings. In private though, they do sometimes stick to protocol for events such as the Christmas Eve dinner where they all arrive according to precedence and the Queen arrives and sits down last and the meal begins. I imagine they don't do this out in the grounds of Balmoral having a BBQ though. I think it depends on what the situation calls for.

Im sure the queen does not insist on her cousins etc caling her "Ma'am" or your Majesty. But its possible that Victoria when she became queen only allowed a very few to call her by her given name..
having said that, that of course ELiz II isn't so formal as Victoria, she is still very formal by today's standards.. and does expect a curtsy each day even from her family...

HRHBerengaria 06-15-2021 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 2408317)
Victoria still had living first cousins - her cousin George of Cambridge didn't die until after she did but either he wasn't allowed to call her Victoria or he didn't count.

I would hope that Elizabeth doesn't insist on her first cousins calling her only Your Majesty or Ma'am when in private.

He was born and raised in Hanover though. Victoria's mother kept her away from the BRM, especially her uncles nearest the throne. I wouldn't imagine they were very close

Prinsara 06-15-2021 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRHBerengaria (Post 2408550)
He was born and raised in Hanover though. Victoria's mother kept her away from the BRM, especially her uncles nearest the throne. I wouldn't imagine they were very close

I think you're confusing him with the son of the Duke of Cumberland. George Cambridge was English born and bred, and Victoria saw or was made to see enough of him to know she didn't want to marry him! (He was William IV's candidate.)

HRHBerengaria 06-15-2021 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prinsara (Post 2408555)
I think you're confusing him with the son of the Duke of Cumberland. George Cambridge was English born and bred, and Victoria saw or was made to see enough of him to know she didn't want to marry him! (He was William IV's candidate.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...e_of_Cambridge

Prince George was born at Cambridge House in Hanover, Germany.[1] His father was Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge, the seventh son of King George III and Queen Charlotte.[1] His mother was the Duchess of Cambridge (née Princess Augusta of Hesse-Kassel).[2]

Prince George of Cambridge was educated in Hanover and from 1830 in England by the Rev. J. R. Wood, a canon of Worcester Cathedral.[2] Like his father, he embarked upon a military career, initially becoming a colonel in the Hanoverian Army and then, on 3 November 1837, becoming a brevet colonel in the British Army.[4] He was attached to the staff at Gibraltar from October 1838 to April 1839.[1] After serving in Ireland with the 12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales's), he was appointed substantive lieutenant-colonel of the 8th Light Dragoons on 15 April 1842[5] and colonel of the 17th Lancers on 25 April 1842.[1]

No I think I have the correct George Cambridge. It doesn't sound like he spent much if any of his childhood around Victoria

Curryong 06-15-2021 09:25 PM

I don’t think George Cambridge (who was rather a bonehead) wanted to marry Victoria either. He was like his uncle William, into actresses, though in his case he married one. ‘What, ugly little Victoria?’ was his reported response to the suggestion he propose to her.

MARG 06-15-2021 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odette (Post 836512)
I have read numerous times that the only one who can now call her Lillibet is Princess Alexandra. (Perhaps besides Prince Philip) I doubt Marina would ever address her as cousin Lillibet.

I believe Princess Margaret's children call her Aunt Lilibet and she still has several relatives such as Princess Alexandra and family, Duke of Gloucester and family, Duke of Kent and family and there are friends she has made over her lifetime.


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