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-   -   Windsor/Mountbatten-Windsor: Name of Royal House and Surname (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/windsor-mountbatten-windsor-name-of-royal-house-and-surname-18643.html)

cmkrcwi 10-10-2008 02:33 PM

I think he'll probably change it to Mountbatten-Windsor. I believe all the Queen's children used that as their surname on their marriage certificates even though that name is only supposed to be for nonroyal descendants of Her Majesty and royal descendants (those entitled to the style and title of HRH Prince or Princess and of course, the Monarch) would continue to be known as The House of Windsor.

Menarue 10-10-2008 02:39 PM

It is a strange thing that the Prince Philip´s name was not Mountbatten, it was his mother´s name which he adopted when he had to choose a surname. Then again Windsor was not the name of the royal family either until they took the name of their castle. A very nice name too, very English.

EmpressRouge 10-10-2008 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarue (Post 835548)
It is a strange thing that the Prince Philip´s name was not Mountbatten, it was his mother´s name which he adopted when he had to choose a surname. Then again Windsor was not the name of the royal family either until they took the name of their castle. A very nice name too, very English.

It was technically his mother's family's name. Princess Alice had already married into the Greek Royal Family (1903) by the time the Battenbergs changed it (1917), so she was never a Mountbatten. Perhaps Charles should change the name of the house to Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-Windsor :ermm:. Imagine the confusion during roll call if the future Danish, Norwegian, Greek, and British royals all attended the same school/class under their House name.

Elspeth 10-10-2008 08:05 PM

I think the name Windsor, since it's an English place name rather than a royal family name, was meant to be used in perpetuity. Now we have the precedent of royals marrying commoners, and even in Camilla's case untitled commoners, we're going to run the risk of the House of Bloggs or something if a female heir presumptive marries a boyfriend from university who doesn't have noble antecedents. Much safer to leave it with Windsor at this point.

Empress 10-10-2008 09:32 PM

Imagine if this was the case in the Netherlands, where Napoleon forced them to adopt last names, and they (the Dutch) thinking that it was a lark, choose names like Hondenpoep and Van der Laan, translated loosely to Dog Poop, and From the Street respectively. Imagine what you would end up with for a Royal House. YIKES.

wbenson 10-11-2008 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth (Post 835756)
I think the name Windsor, since it's an English place name rather than a royal family name, was meant to be used in perpetuity. Now we have the precedent of royals marrying commoners, and even in Camilla's case untitled commoners, we're going to run the risk of the House of Bloggs or something if a female heir presumptive marries a boyfriend from university who doesn't have noble antecedents. Much safer to leave it with Windsor at this point.

I agree. Although I kind of like how "Mountbatten-Windsor" sounds, it would set a precedent for an ever-expanding house name with whatever names come along.

Although Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha would be kind of fun, too...

Or they could use "Edinburgh" and name the house Windsor in England and Edinburgh in Scotland. Then that gets into the Welsh and Northern Irish feeling left out, though, and "House of Cardiff" and "House of Belfast" just sound (more) contrived.

Menarue 10-11-2008 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge (Post 835750)
It was technically his mother's family's name. Princess Alice had already married into the Greek Royal Family (1903) by the time the Battenbergs changed it (1917), so she was never a Mountbatten. Perhaps Charles should change the name of the house to Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-Windsor :ermm:. Imagine the confusion during roll call if the future Danish, Norwegian, Greek, and British royals all attended the same school/class under their House name.

You forgot to add Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha that would give them more fun when they were signing documents.... :lol:

Jo of Palatine 10-11-2008 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge (Post 835750)
It was technically his mother's family's name. Princess Alice had already married into the Greek Royal Family (1903) by the time the Battenbergs changed it (1917), so she was never a Mountbatten. Perhaps Charles should change the name of the house to Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-Windsor :ermm:. Imagine the confusion during roll call if the future Danish, Norwegian, Greek, and British royals all attended the same school/class under their House name.

But "Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" is not a family name - this family simply has no family name. The name is just a territorial placement of the family. Originally the "House" they are from reigned in Oldenburg (Germany). Thus the "House of Oldenburg". In 1448 one member was elected king of Denmark - he founded the lines that held estates and lands in Holstein (Gottorp and Sonderburg) and were known then by their lands name. Sonderburg's lands again were divided and one branch got Augustenburg, another Glücksburg, a third Beck. As the main possession of the last two lines (which merged) is today the kingdom of Denmark, they are calling themselves "of Denmark". The branch who was elected for Norway is similarily "of Norway".

So as Philip is only a descendent in direct male line form the branch that reigned over S-H-S-Glücksburg but he isn't reigning there, he has no claim to that name. Only dynastically a claim to be descended from them. He was Philip "of Greece and Denmark" but as I explained, this was not his name, it was based on the fact that his branch was still recognized by the main line of Denmark and reigned in Greece.

BTW: it's the same with Hanover, only that the family of Hanover has a known name (Welfs) but is not known by that in form of a family name. In 1918 the title was reduced to a family name, nowadays "von Hannover" is used as a family name, though originally it isn't. Same with Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Saxony was the dukedom turned kingdom, the Coburg (town in Bavaria) - Gotha (town in Saxony) were the branch who held these towns and the surrounding area as their dukedom. It's a very typical way to describe reigning houses in Germany while in Britain there is always a family whose Head was granted a title but who could hold different possessions/estates under the same title.

Menarue 10-11-2008 04:16 AM

Here in Portugal when a family has "de" in their name, which I think is the equivalent of "von", the name following it is a place name but over the years in many cases it has come to be used as a surname. In my husband´s family cousins and even brothers and sisters have ended up with a different surname because of this which makes things very difficult some times. Much easier to be a royal and sign just your first name. The present Infantas of Spain are "de España y Grecia". The Spanish make this even more complicated by putting the mother´s name last.... All very interesting but of course the name of the Spanish House is Borbón.
I like the name Windsor and I hope it isn´t changed. A beautiful castle and very apt to take that name.
If I have made any mistakes over this I am sure someone will rapidly put me right.

branchg 10-11-2008 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prince nathan (Post 835440)
I was wondering might the House of Windsor be changed to the House of Mountbatten when Charles becomes King. There is precedence in history. When Queen Victoria reigned, it was over the House of Hanover, her 'maiden' name, But when her son, Edward VII, succeeded her it was over the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - his fathers family name.
On a side-note I think it would be a nice tribute to the Prince Philip.

It was the House of Hanover until the death of Queen Victoria. Victoria married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, so Edward VII, George V, George VI and Queen Elizabeth II, are actually of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (or Wettin) as male-line descendants of Prince Albert.

Since Elizabeth married Prince Philip of Greece & Denmark, after her death, Charles would actually be of the House of Glucksburg (officially the name of the Greek Royal House). Since Philip legally renounced his Greek titles and rights when he was naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, it is arguably the House of Mountbatten that would reign after The Queen dies.

I think it's likely Charles may change the name of the royal house to Mountbatten-Windsor to honour his father.

magnik 10-11-2008 01:49 PM

Try here:
Part II: British Royal Family

1. What is the surname of the royal family?

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

Jo of Palatine 10-11-2008 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg (Post 836035)
Since Elizabeth married Prince Philip of Greece & Denmark, after her death, Charles would actually be of the House of Glucksburg (officially the name of the Greek Royal House).

As I tried to explain, the S-H-S-Gluecksburg are just a branch of the House of Oldenburg and do not have a family name. That's why Philip had to choose one when he was naturalized: British citizens obviously need surnames. He wanted "Oldcastle" (English for Oldenburg) first but the Mountbattens convinced him that Mountbatten would be better. While king George V. in 1917 decreed that his family takes on Windsor as their surname.

If the S-H-S-G in fact had a family name there would have been no need for the queen of Denmark to bestow the title of Count/Countess of Monpezat (Greve/Grevinde af Monpezat) on her descendants in order to honour her husband and his family name. She could simply have added the Monpezat to S-H-S-G... ;)

branchg 10-11-2008 02:22 PM

Yes, of course you are correct. Glucksburg really has no meaning, especially since Philip took Mountbatten as his surname.

House of Mountbatten-Windsor would be nice once Charles is King.

EmpressRouge 10-12-2008 11:04 AM

What if in the future, they adopt Mountbatten-Windsor. And then, there is another heiress presumptive, say William only has daughters, marries a guy named Smith and took his name, would the family name be Smith-Mountbatten-Windsor? If they keep hyphenating the names, soon, Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg won't sound too awkward.

Vasillisos Markos 06-18-2009 06:24 AM

Didn't the Queen proclaim that her children would be styled Windsor-Mountbatten or Mountbatten-Windsor? Isn't she the last monarch who can claim the Windsor name?

Iluvbertie 06-18-2009 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 954919)
Didn't the Queen proclaim that her children would be styled Windsor-Mountbatten or Mountbatten-Windsor? Isn't she the last monarch who can claim the Windsor name?


That would be the normal sense in that her descendents would take her husband's name but what she actually said was:

that those of her descendents who actually needed a surname would have Mountbatten-Windsor but that the House name would remain as Windsor so Charles will be a member of the House of Windsor but his male line greatgrandsons through Harry, for instance would be Mountbatten-Windsor not just Windsor.

Of course Charles could change his mother's instructions and issue new ones. It is also worth noting that on both Charles' and Anne's marriage certificates they used the name Mountbatten-Windsor and not just Windsor.

If Charles follows his mother's instruction I believe he will be the first King whose family name is different to the House name since the Middle Ages at least (in England that is).

jonnydep 06-18-2009 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 954919)
Didn't the Queen proclaim that her children would be styled Windsor-Mountbatten or Mountbatten-Windsor? Isn't she the last monarch who can claim the Windsor name?

hi
yes you are correct, but mountbatten-windsor is the family name. the royal house remains that of windsor !!!!

HM Queen Catherine 06-18-2009 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnydep1 (Post 955006)
hi
yes you are correct, but mountbatten-windsor is the family name. the royal house remains that of windsor !!!!

Actually, the declaration of the family name Mountbatten-Windsor was originally intended to be used only by the male-line descendants of Elizabeth II who are not entitled to be HRH. For example, the grandson of Prince Harry, who would not be HRH, and would therefore need a family name. That name would be Mountbatten-Windsor.

The Royal Family primarily does not have the need of a family name, and generally does not use one.

Even though the declaration of the family name was to be used for those members of the family not entitled to use HRH, Elizabeth II's children have taken to using the name already. The first use of Mountbatten-Windsor was on the marriage register of HRH The Princess Royal to Mr. Mark Phillips in 1973.

But yes, they are still the House of Windsor. :flowers:

jonnydep 06-19-2009 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarue (Post 835548)
It is a strange thing that the Prince Philip´s name was not Mountbatten, it was his mother´s name which he adopted when he had to choose a surname. Then again Windsor was not the name of the royal family either until they took the name of their castle. A very nice name too, very English.

well, prince philip, adopted his uncles surname that of mountbatten, as his mother alice, princess andrew of greece, was not mountbatten at all. she married as a princess of battenburg, long before the family changed the name from battenburg to that of mountbatten in 1917.......

branchg 06-20-2009 10:27 PM

Battenberg was meaningless too. It was granted to the morganatic line of the Grand Ducal House of Hesse-Darmstadt when Prince Alexander married Julia von Haucke, who was denied equal rank and created HiiH Countess von Battenberg (later elevated to HSH Princess von Battenberg). Since Alice's father married Queen Victoria's granddaughter, Princess Victoria of Hesse, she was born a direct descendant of Queen Victoria.

Her uncle, HSH Prince Henry of Battenberg, also married into the British royal family when he wed HRH The Princess Beatrice, the Queen's youngest daughter and mother of the future Queen Victoria Eugenie of Spain and The Earl of Carisbrooke.

In 1917, Alice's parents, who spent most of their lives in England, were created Marquess and Marchioness of Milford Haven by George V and relinquished their German princely styles and titles. At that point, Louis anglicized Battenberg to "Mountbatten" to provide a new style for his children who now carried courtesy styles as chldren of a British Peer. His son, Louis, was later granted his own peerage as Earl Mountbatten of Burma for service to Great Britain and as Viceroy of India before independence.


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