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Porknight 08-24-2008 10:36 PM

Monarch as God?: Royals and the Occult
 
I know sound a silly question , but I was having an argument with somebody , and he was thinking that monarchies are believed to be god , or be worshipped as gods. Then he stated that some British think that she is some kind of god . As I know according to a survey (don't remember the source) that most of the British claim to believe more in ghosts than God .

Can I have some explanation please?

Please remember that this is not a joke please be honest and if you are a british write honestly what do you think about the Queen.

Elspeth 08-24-2008 10:47 PM

I think she's Head of State, and Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I don't believe in gods.

There are some Pacific Islanders who worship Prince Philip as a god, but I don't think the British royals have ever been accorded that status in Britain. Your friend isn't thinking of the Japanese emperor by any chance, is he?

wbenson 08-24-2008 11:12 PM

I think that at one point (I don't know how long ago), it was believed that the monarch was a descendant of god or a direct representative of god. The only reference I can find so far to that is this (PDF) copy of an Australian Parliament committee, though.

Quote:

As with all human cultures, the apical ancestor may be real or legendary, to use a
lay term. For instance, British royalty had at one time its constitution in divinity and it
was believed that the king, or the queen, was the divine representative on earth. That is
why the monarch is the representative of the Church of England, because of the doctrine
of the monarch as divinity.
In a similar way, most human cultures have a belief system about ancestry. These
days with DNA and RNA testing, some of this can be affirmed or denied, but much of it
still is not amenable to scientific inquiry. Belief systems are belief systems and as we
know with racism, generally false propositions which operate on an illogic are not
amenable to facts. So in the same way belief systems are simply belief systems and there
is no point in taking blood tests and doing DNA tests because it is not relevant to the
exercise. One would not do a DNA test on the queen to see if she were, in fact, a
descendant of God.

Odette 08-24-2008 11:32 PM

WoW!!!!!!!! The things I have learnt on these boards!! I would have never guessed anyone has ever considered the royals (outside of pre war Japan) as descendants of the gods.

Elspeth 08-24-2008 11:41 PM

Well, the Divine Right of Kings did hold (as far as I know) that the monarch was appointed by God or approved by God or something; I think that's why Charles I refused to recognise the legal system set up to try him for treason. But I wasn't aware that any English or British monarchs, at least during the time of recorded history, were accorded divine status themselves.

Porknight 08-25-2008 01:06 AM

But do you think that she is a goddess , and do you worship her as a goddess. Do you vowed upon her like the Christians vowed their heads on prayers and the Catholics vowed their heads before doing the sign of cross when they pass the altars ?

Or this is just a sign of respect ?

Winnie 08-25-2008 01:09 AM

I do believe that the Pharaohs of Egypt thought they were direct from God [if my Sunday School classes are remembered correctly] but I never heard of anyone in modern days. I think he is confusing the fact that Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of the Church of England, not that she is part God.

Iluvbertie 08-25-2008 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porknight (Post 815531)
But do you think that she is a goddess , and do you worship her as god ?


Simple answer No and I don't know anyone who would ever have done so, outside of maybe a small island or two. There is a tribe that worships Philip as a god but not any that I know of that worships the Queen and certainly not in Britain itself.

wbenson 08-25-2008 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porknight (Post 815531)
Or this is just a sign of respect ?

It's just a sign of respect.

Skydragon 08-25-2008 05:41 PM

I can only claim to speak for myself and no, I do not consider HM to be a god. I don't think anyone I know in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland does either. :flowers:

Bella 08-26-2008 10:07 AM

Ha! A god??? No human is anyhow "related" to or descended from God. Throughout history certain earthlings have been fortunate enough to have been born into a family/dynasty that had overtaken other earthlings and therefore allowed them a lofty position in their own little earthling world. They may have abused their power to twist reality into creating the joke that they were Divine (the Egyptians, Romans, Russians, etc.) but no, no human should ever be worshipped as a god. And I doubt any sane person alive today would even consider QEII a god, please . . .

Lilla 08-26-2008 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bella (Post 815957)
And I doubt any sane person alive today would even consider QEII a god, please . . .

I doubt that to.

But considering a royal as god isn't unknown today. The Rastafari is a rather new religious movement that accepts Haile Selassie I, the former Emperor of Ethiopia as God.

Rastafari movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Royal Fan 08-26-2008 12:47 PM

No I Do not im a Christian The Queen is a great lady though I Dont think the Queen would want anyone to do that. Thiland or Japan Maybe just my 2 cents

Mermaid1962 08-26-2008 01:48 PM

I don't think that British kings and queens were ever considered to be divine. At the most, they were seen to be God's servants and appointed by him to lead--hence the "Divine Right of Kings." I think that HM would be horrified at the idea that someone would consider worshipping her.

Russophile 08-26-2008 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porknight (Post 815531)
But do you think that she is a goddess , and do you worship her as a goddess. Do you vowed upon her like the Christians vowed their heads on prayers and the Catholics vowed their heads before doing the sign of cross when they pass the altars ?

Or this is just a sign of respect ?

I don't think anybody in the UK worships HM as a God.
Though in history, the Romanovs were thought to have been anointed by God as if they were Gods.

Al_bina 08-26-2008 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan (Post 816012)
No I Do not im a Christian The Queen is a great lady though I Dont think the Queen would want anyone to do that. Thiland or Japan Maybe just my 2 cents[my bolding]

Japanese Emperors used to have the Godlike status. Given the external circumstances, they were forced to give up their divinity after the World War II.
The Japanese Emperor: man god?
Furthermore, I do not think that any English King or Queen ever had the Godlike status. They were/are just the heads of Church of England.

Bella 08-27-2008 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al_bina (Post 816108)
Japanese Emperors used to have the Godlike status. Given the external circumstances, they were forced to give up their divinity after the World War II.
The Japanese Emperor: man god?
Furthermore, I do not think that any English King or Queen ever had the Godlike status. They were/are just the heads of Church of England.

And before that they bowed to The Pope.

Australian 08-27-2008 10:22 AM

I can't remember where i read it but i dont think its true, apparentley the French royal family are decendants of Jesus. They are meant to be part of not only a royal bloodline but a holy bloodline.....personally i think its rubbish but i cant remember for the life of me where i read it. Will try and find it.

Lilla 08-27-2008 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Australian (Post 816227)
I can't remember where i read it but i dont think its true, apparentley the French royal family are decendants of Jesus. They are meant to be part of not only a royal bloodline but a holy bloodline.....personally i think its rubbish but i cant remember for the life of me where i read it. Will try and find it.

I am not sure - but I think this was a theory put forward in the fictional novel by Dan Brown: "Da Vinci Code".

Mermaid1962 08-27-2008 12:56 PM

It's an old conspiracy theory that gets recycled from time to time. "The Da Vinci Code" is it's latest outing. It's possible to find Royal genealogies on the internet that go back to ancient times, and there are no divine figures in them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilla (Post 816230)
I am not sure - but I think this was a theory put forward in the fictional novel by Dan Brown: "Da Vinci Code".


Winnie 08-27-2008 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bella (Post 816214)
And before that they bowed to The Pope.

Yes, people still bow to the Pope but I don't believe that they think he is God -- just given god-like powers to change the thinking of his followers. They believe that he, thru prayer, is told directly by God what to do. But he is not God.

Lilla 08-30-2008 09:31 AM

Wensday 9/3 the danish TV 2 is broadcasting the first programme in a series called: Meet the Natives.

In the appetiser is written:

"Normally, it is the white men who go to remote parts of the world for filming the natives, but in this series it is five lightly dressed men from the tropical island of Tanna in the South Pacific, who has decided to look at how life is lived in the cold and remote archipelago, known as the United Kingdom. On Tanna they consider the English as their lost brothers, and they are convinced that Prince Philip is the son of their god. Yapa, Albi, Plastic Bag, Joel and JJ, must be in the country for six weeks and they have promised their chieftain to try to get a message back from Prince Phillip":lol:.

I am looking very much forward to watching this series.

baguetteprincess 08-30-2008 07:59 PM

No, I do not, but then I am American. However, I do believe that HM's life has been based on service, which is serving God.

jackie68 09-03-2008 11:42 AM

henry viii thought he was God's messenger on earth. So he thought he was pretty god-like.
also, sticking it to the pope and catholisim, sort of gives an indication of his so called divinity

Ifmeister 09-03-2008 12:22 PM

Well Porknight, the Queen is most certainly not a God. As has been said, she is the head of state. As the Pope is not a God, but the leader of a faith, so is the Queen.

Many years ago, back in the days when your decendants invaded this fine country I live in, Roylaty and Emporers may have been seen as Gods, but reality has now set in and we respect that they are human beings with the frailties and emotions of all humans. They are just particularly good at what they do and how they represent us.

Just an afterthought too. I don't recall that HM has ever professed to be a God, or any of her immediate descendants.

kimebear 09-03-2008 01:22 PM

Ifmeister, I believe the word you wanted to use was "ancestors, not "descendants". :flowers:

markthebaldguy 09-14-2008 03:08 PM

British Royals and the Occult
 
I saw an interview of HRH Prince Charles in which he talked about being the houseguest of other aristocrats and being put up in the huge ancient room and bed that once been slept in by Charles I. He said he was hardly 12 yrs old and terrified the entire night. It got me thinking, since many statley homes come replete with ghosts , have the royals ever commented on occult phenom. occuring in their homes, or spirits pestering the monarchs..?
I know Queen Victoria saw and apparation of Elizabeth I and this story circulated much in the 1800's press but was squished in the much of the 20th cent. journals.
I am open minded about parapsychology and suspect that monarchs and other royals would be targets for both visitations and imaginative embelishments. Banter anyone?

Elspeth 09-16-2008 07:40 PM

I know some of the royal residences are supposed to be haunted, but I don't know if the royals themselves have ever talked about it.

Russophile 09-17-2008 12:39 AM

Hey E, I am trying to remember if David used to have sceances and ouija boards at his place with Thelma Furness and Wallis and co? Do you remember reading something about that?

Elspeth 09-17-2008 01:00 AM

Not off-hand, although I wouldn't be surprised. That was the sort of pastime that had its popular phases.

Russophile 09-17-2008 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth (Post 824699)
Not off-hand, although I wouldn't be surprised. That was the sort of pastime that had its popular phases.

Well It wasn't in "The Heart has it's Reasons" nor David's auto-bio. But there was another one I read that had something like that in it and I forgot about it. Sucks to get old! :bang:

georgiea 09-18-2008 09:03 PM

Both Duchess Fergie and Diana, Princess of Wales relied on the Occult.

Fergie got Diana involved with the New Age Movement.

It is stated in various books, on Diana, Princess of Wales, that Diana got future revelations from pychics. One prediction she got was that Prince Charles was going to be killed in a car accident and not become King of England. So much for pychics in my opionion.

Does anyone know if Prince Charles tried the occult to talk with his assinated uncle? :flowers:

Russophile 09-19-2008 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgiea (Post 825619)

Does anyone know if Prince Charles tried the occult to talk with his assinated uncle? :flowers:

That doesn't sound to me like anything Prince Charles would do, but then again one never knows. . . .:ohmy:

Skydragon 09-19-2008 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgiea (Post 825619)
Both Duchess Fergie and Diana, Princess of Wales relied on the Occult.

Fergie got Diana involved with the New Age Movement.

It is stated in various books, on Diana, Princess of Wales, that Diana got future revelations from pychics. One prediction she got was that Prince Charles was going to be killed in a car accident and not become King of England. So much for pychics in my opionion.

Does anyone know if Prince Charles tried the occult to talk with his assinated uncle? :flowers:

New Age is not necessarily 'occult'.

Diana did become heavily involved with all sorts of, to me, weird things. The enemas, the psychics, astrologers. :ermm:

I can't imagine Charles doing anything of the sort.

markthebaldguy 09-20-2008 08:29 AM

occult
 
Charles is far more likely to be new age-y and less occult-y I am sure , as far as "david" or HRH the Duke Of Windsor I would suspect that the pursuit of spiritual passtimes werent tickling his fancy, Ouiji boards were clearly late Victorian,certainly Edwardian fads.
My comments come from the passing beleif in paranormal and the fact that the links to the past demontsrated in HM the Queens use of jewels to reach back and bond with tradition makes me suspect that there must be talks at ol' Balmoral about "bumps in the night " and ghostly sightings... the royals may be above alot of things in life but they certainly cant be above a good ghost story ,,, cant one see HG Philip tellling the kiddies scarey stories and then packing them off to a disgruntled nanny?

markthebaldguy 09-21-2008 04:01 PM

pm...?
 
deleted by writer
Russopphile , I wish to withdraw from you and your comments.Please permitt that boundary

Ifmeister 09-22-2008 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimebear (Post 818608)
Ifmeister, I believe the word you wanted to use was "ancestors, not "descendants". :flowers:

I meant Charles, who does have some odd beliefs and his two sons (All of whom could become head of state).

Menarue 09-22-2008 05:30 AM

Definitely no.

kimebear 09-22-2008 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ifmeister (Post 826901)
I meant Charles, who does have some odd beliefs and his two sons (All of whom could become head of state).

I was referring to this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ifmeister (Post 818568)
Many years ago, back in the days when your decendants invaded this fine country I live in....

If you were speaking about Prince Charles, many years ago his descendants did not even exist. I do believe that you meant to refer to his ancestors.

Russophile 09-22-2008 03:27 PM

With all due respect, I think that's a lot of conjecture and the mods and admins would like to stick to the truth, but I can't speak for them. . .

markthebaldguy 09-22-2008 03:42 PM

?
 
i wasnt expecting that this would be seen in a negative light, am miffed by the above comment...?

Russophile 09-22-2008 03:59 PM

It has been my experience in these forums that when you present a topic, you have things to back it up, hence I was trying to find some sources to collaborate my reply that David and his set may have dabbled in the occult. This way people can read the sources and discuss it. When there's pure conjecture of "Someone said thus and such about somebody else", well, then you run into iffy territory and rumor. It has been my experience on these forums that the mods would like to keep the rumors to a minimum and the facts to represent themselves. I found the thread https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ded-17717.html to be an excellent resource on all subjects.
Again, this is with all due respect. :flowers:

Skydragon 09-22-2008 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markthebaldguy (Post 826757)
I just got an invitation from someone on here who asked that I not reveal his ( i think) forum name. but he added that St.James's Palace , where he claims he has done some contract work in an admin. position had been in talks with legendary psychic ------- this member has pledged to filter us some things from time to time... so lets hope for more huh?

I think Russo is referring to the claims made by your someone who supposedly works at St James Palace, unless he/she is willing and able to prove beyond doubt that he/she does in fact have contacts, then it sounds like gossip mongering.

We have had so many people on here leaking 'rumours and other false information, whilst suggesting they are the 3rd cousin once removed or know/knew personally, that we tend to dismiss this sort of claim. :smile:

Elspeth 09-22-2008 10:11 PM

I didn't see the post in question before it was edited, but I think the following forum rule probably applies:
  • Whenever possible, opinions should be based on factual information obtained from reputable sources and should be backed up by references to those sources. The moderators reserve the right to delete posts containing the more fanciful types of gossip and speculation, whether they originate in gossip magazines and websites or are simply fabricated.
If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM one of the forum moderators.

Kurenai 09-22-2008 11:12 PM

I remember reading somewhere (more than one source) that Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands saw the ghost of Abraham Lincoln when she was guest at the White House. But this can be a popular myth.

Mermaid1962 09-23-2008 02:10 PM

I sort of think fo New Age as "occult lite." :smile: My opinion on Diana's involvement with those things is that her life would have been different had she not got involved with them and the practictioners who just told her what she wanted to believe and fed her paranoia.

Prince of Chota 09-24-2008 09:57 PM

I don't know of a place on EARTH where the monarch is considered an actual deity. The closest that absolute monarchs ever got in ancient times was semi-divine, sometimes with the notion that they would become a deity in the afterlife. Yet this is an entirely different notion of "God" compared to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

wbenson 02-12-2010 11:48 PM

Waiting for the second coming – of Prince Philip - Australasia, World - The Independent

In a jungle clearing, at the top of a steep, rutted track, a group of South Pacific tribesmen convey an unusual request. "Can you tell Prince Philip we are waiting for him?" asks Siko Nathuan, the village chief. "We are his family and we really want him to come home."

"Home" is Tanna, one of the 83 islands that make up Vanuatu, formerly the Anglo-French territory of the New Hebrides. For reasons difficult to decipher, the islanders believe the Duke of Edinburgh is a descendant of one of their spirit ancestors. For the past half-century they have worshipped him as an unlikely god. Now they are convinced he is about to return.

Lumutqueen 02-23-2010 11:13 AM

There was a Channel 4 program on this recently called Meet The Natives.
5 tribesmen came across to the UK for 5 weeks and met Prince Phillip in a private off screen meeting. It was quite fascinating. :smile:

ukfishfingers 03-26-2010 12:23 PM

Prince Phillip worshipped by isolated island cult
 
Strange but true. The tiny island of Tanna, in Vanuatu is home to a rather unusual cult worshiping Prince Phillip. t is believed that when Phillip returns to the island: "there will be no more sickness and no more death ... a man will be able to take any woman he wants".

Vanuatu Islands | Prince Philip | Queen of England

I had no idea!

Ilse 03-26-2010 12:45 PM

What a strange story!

wbenson 04-30-2010 06:28 PM

South Pacific tribe preparing for return of 'god' Prince Philip - Telegraph

On a remote island in the South Pacific, villagers are counting the days until they welcome their god back to his rightful home.

The people of Yaohnanen on the island of Tanna believe a man descended from one of their spirit ancestors will return next month to live among them. While he was away he lived in a vast palace, but when he comes home he will sleep in a hut and hunt wild pigs with his tribe.

Ladygodiva 04-30-2010 10:21 PM

The whole "God" thing comes from the British Monarchs connections with the Catholic church. The King was declared to be ordained as King by God, along with the supreme Prince on Earth (the Pope). When Henry VIII detached from Rome during the whole Ann Boleyn saga, he declared himself the supreme ruler and head of the Church of England.
So to answer the question, No, we British don't consider the Monarchy "Godly" in any way. Just like Catholics don't consider the pope God! We do though accept him as head of the church and ordained as God's representitive by God.
Just like some protestants see the queen as ordained by God as his representitive.

All very confusing. Could have been avoided had Henry kept it in his pants. (to put it bluntly)

lwbohm 04-30-2010 11:00 PM

HM queen elizabeth is the head of the church of england.
But alas not a god.

KittyAtlanta 07-29-2010 05:39 PM

I had not heard of the Tanna natives and the HRH PP being their diety. In fishfinger's post the sentence "It is believed that when Phillip returns to the island..." When was Prince P on the island? I'm sorry, I know that it's a quaint story, but I can't stop........laughing!!!!!!!!!! Hoooooooooo hooooooooooo!

Vecchiolarry 07-29-2010 08:01 PM

Hi,

I can well remember when Prince Philip married Princess Elizabeth in 1947.
Some newspapers and newsreels at the time proclaimed him as looking like a Viking god....
I was 5 years old and he did look like he had descended from Valhalla!!!

Larry

Lumutqueen 07-30-2010 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta (Post 1118237)
I had not heard of the Tanna natives and the HRH PP being their diety. In fishfinger's post the sentence "It is believed that when Phillip returns to the island..." When was Prince P on the island? I'm sorry, I know that it's a quaint story, but I can't stop........laughing!!!!!!!!!! Hoooooooooo hooooooooooo!

He never went to the Island, but he did meet the five tribesman who travelled over here.

Lumutqueen 08-06-2010 05:13 PM

British student stands in for Prince Philip at ceremony on island where duke is living God | Mail Online

AnnEliza 11-16-2010 07:16 PM

If you go way, way back, most ancient kings claimed to be descended from gods.

In Britain, about the time the Romans left, and the Anglo-Saxons were coming over to settle, the King of Wessex, for example, was considered to be descended from Odin. Since the current royal family is descended from the kings of Wessex, that is in Burke's Peerage, I believe. In the same sort of way, Hawaiian ali'i were considered to be descended from gods. Ancient pharaohs of Egypt were considered to be the god Horus reborn, sort of an avatar. The emperors of Rome claimed descent from Aeneas of Troy, son of Aphrodite.

But as for actually BEING a god, I don't know of any, even very ancient cultures, that believed that -- Egypt seemed to be the closest, the pharaohs were pretty much considered gods, but I don't think they assumed their full godhood until after death. I think the ancient claims of divine lineage later evolved into the idea of divine right of kings.

As you may guess, I have an interest in ancient history. :smile:

OlderThanILook 11-21-2010 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porknight (Post 815506)
I know sound a silly question , but I was having an argument with somebody , and he was thinking that monarchies are believed to be god , or be worshipped as gods. Then he stated that some British think that she is some kind of god . As I know according to a survey (don't remember the source) that most of the British claim to believe more in ghosts than God .

Can I have some explanation please?

Please remember that this is not a joke please be honest and if you are a british write honestly what do you think about the Queen.

Not at all a silly question.

Oddly enough, I just read the same thing in Lilibet: An Intimate Portrait of Elizabeth II by Carolly Erickson, St. Martin's Press, New York, 2004. Erickson writes that on Coronation Day, 1953, ". . . according to one British newspaper survey, two-thirds of those questioned believed that [Queen Elizabeth II] was a direct descendant of the Almighty [H]imself" (p. 139). Erickson does not provide an end note.

I'm American, not British, but I do know that even if she's not a direct descendant of the Almighty, the Queen is divinely anointed. But aren't we all children of God?

nascarlucy 11-21-2010 09:53 AM

Royalty, Kings and Queen aren't gods. However, in the bible it does say that many Kings, Queens and presidents and many leaders are related to biblical prophets and to the House of David. It would not surprise me if many of those sitting on royal thrones aren't related to these people in the bible.


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