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-   -   New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: May 2008 (https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/new-titles-for-queen-margrethes-descendants-may-2008-a-16845.html)

Muhler 03-13-2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLC (Post 2203867)
So what title will Prince Joachim’s grandkids have? Will they be style as Prince/princess ?

Congratulations on your first post. :flowers:

That's up to the monarch, most likely Frederik, to decide.

My best guess is: Almost certainly no. If it's boys they will Counts of Montpezat if girls they will be (Komtesse) comtessa of Montpezat, until they marry.

Somebody 03-13-2019 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 2203871)
Congratulations on your first post. :flowers:

That's up to the monarch, most likely Frederik, to decide.

My best guess is: Almost certainly no. If it's boys they will Counts of Montpezat if girls they will be (Komtesse) comtessa of Montpezat, until they marry.

Except for grandchildren by Athena. I would expect them to carry their father's surname (and title if applicable). Or would you think differently?

Muhler 03-13-2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2203885)
Except for grandchildren by Athena. I would expect them to carry their father's surname (and title if applicable). Or would you think differently?

Alas, yes you are right.

Athena has no title to pass on to her children, unless Frederik says OK to her children remaining royals - most unlikely IMO.

MLC 03-13-2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 2203886)
Alas, yes you are right.

Athena has no title to pass on to her children, unless Frederik says OK to her children remaining royals - most unlikely IMO.


So Nikolai’s, Felix’s and Henrik’s children will Be style as counts

but I thought the title of Prince was passed down if the Prince married with permission of the monarch m?

I guess will have to wait until one of the Princes gets married to find out what title will their children hold

Somebody 03-13-2019 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLC (Post 2203896)
So Nikolai’s, Felix’s and Henrik’s children will Be style as counts

but I thought the title of Prince was passed down if the Prince married with permission of the monarch m?

I guess will have to wait until one of the Princes gets married to find out what title will their children hold

A simple way to keep the size of the royal family small is to ('suggest' non-mainline grandchildren of a monarch) not (to) ask for permission from the monarch to get married. In that way, it is clear that the monarch isn't opposed to the marriage but isn't required to keep growing the royal family.

Something similar was for example done regarding prince Pieter-Christiaan and prince Floris in the Netherlands. They didn't ask for permission while their older brothers did. Main reason being that their brothers were the first of their generations to marry but since both the crown prince and his younger brother had married and had children. So, they weren't needed to secure the thtone (and would loose their rights upon their cousin ascending the throne several years in the future0.

Muhler 03-13-2019 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLC (Post 2203896)
So Nikolai’s, Felix’s and Henrik’s children will Be style as counts

but I thought the title of Prince was passed down if the Prince married with permission of the monarch m?

I guess will have to wait until one of the Princes gets married to find out what title will their children hold

Not automatically. (*) Because Joachim's grandchildren will be so far away from the throne that it makes no sense to make them royals as well. Otherwise we would have about 281 royals running around all over the place in a couple of generations!
It's by no means certain Joachim's children will retain their royal titles upon marrying. - It's up to the monarch.

It's another matter with M&F's children. They are much closer to the throne and even Josephine has a chance, albeit small, to end up on the throne.
their children may very well be royals as well, but apart from Christian that's where the royal line will stop for Isabella, Vincent and Josephine IMO.

Of course it's likely to expect that one or more of M&F's children will marry and settle abroad, perhaps Australia... and do a Madeleine of Sweden. (Who is gradually turning into Mrs. O'Neil.)
Or one or more of them may simply give up their royal titles.

(*) It's a Catch 22. You give up your royal title in order to get the monarchs approval to marry.
Or you lose your royal title because you don't marry with the monarch's approval.
So if the monarch decides you are going to lose your royal title, you will lose it, unless you do an Elisabeth.

Tatiana Maria 03-13-2019 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 2203905)
Not automatically. (*)

(*) It's a Catch 22. You give up your royal title in order to get the monarchs approval to marry.
Or you lose your royal title because you don't marry with the monarch's approval.
So if the monarch decides you are going to lose your royal title, you will lose it, unless you do an Elisabeth.

There is an informal custom though that every prince (and since the end of Salic law in 1953, princess) who retained their place in the line of succession after marriage has been allowed to pass on his or her title (although Princess Benedikte's husband declined). While I agree with you that the monarch could change this custom, I agree with Somebody that the simplest solution would be for Joachim's children not to officially request the monarch's permission to marry, and therefore automatically remove themselves from the order of succession under article 5 of the Act of Succession.


Quote:

Originally Posted by betina (Post 760651)
She coulnt take his fathers titles because they dont have female inheritance in these states :-) and futhermore they are not part of Denmark anymore

Those states are defunct, but if that was the view of the Danish Royal Family surely King Christian IX should have been the one to drop them (and the states themselves).

The male monarch King Carl Gustaf did the same, dropping the Wends and Goths from his title.

victor1319 03-13-2019 07:02 PM

I tumbled about this in the "Portal" and I must say, I find it somewhat funny, that the title of the Countess ends with the marriage of the girl!


Who's idea was this?


I mean, Denmark has a Queen! Whatever line, under this rule, the danish royal family is french now!


Is this some kind of revenge by the deceased Prince, who never became King?

Duc_et_Pair 03-13-2019 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victor1319 (Post 2203938)
I tumbled about this in the "Portal" and I must say, I find it somewhat funny, that the title of the Countess ends with the marriage of the girl!


Who's idea was this?


I mean, Denmark has a Queen! Whatever line, under this rule, the danish royal family is french now!


Is this some kind of revenge by the deceased Prince, who never became King?

It is exactly the same as in your country Germany where nobility is only hereditary in the male lineage. In "egalitarian" Netherlands it was established by the Govdtnment that the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules: the Dutch decided not to change these rules. After all: when the policy is to phase it out slowly (the Nobility is declining since it is "frozen" since WWII) it makes no sense to open all doors my taking away all (gender) limitations on hereditary nobility. We may expect a similar unofficial policy regarding the Nobility in the North European monarchies. Even Belgium does not create hereditary nobles anymore, the same in the UK.

Tatiana Maria 03-13-2019 08:05 PM

For legal purposes, German nobility was abolished by the 1919 constitution, but the noble titles are legally family names which can, since changes to the law, be inherited in both male and female lineage.
Even in bygone ages German noblewomen typically retained their titles after marriage, unless they married beneath their station.

victor1319 03-14-2019 05:28 AM

Everything goes...
 
Believe me, Duc et Pair, the german laws about surnames are like "everything goes".

Over the "nobility" of the persons watches a comitee, Der Deutsche Adelsrechtsausschuß, but this comitee is without legal powers. Albeit, what consequences its decisions have in the social life of the nobility and royalty... I have no idea, honestly.

This comitee presides too over the "Gotha", a book which claims to know, who is "really" noble or not. Some kind of the "Who is who" of noble circles...

Muhler 03-14-2019 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victor1319 (Post 2203938)
I tumbled about this in the "Portal" and I must say, I find it somewhat funny, that the title of the Countess ends with the marriage of the girl!


Who's idea was this?


I mean, Denmark has a Queen! Whatever line, under this rule, the danish royal family is french now!


Is this some kind of revenge by the deceased Prince, who never became King?

Yes, it is a bit weird.
And I do think it's a bit unfair that Athena can't become a countess in her own right.
But the whole concept about nobility and indeed royalty is anything but about equality.

It made perfect sense beforehand, when a noble girl married into her husband's family - not the other was around.

Duc_et_Pair 03-14-2019 02:37 PM

None of the current Continental monarchs have elevated persons outside the royal family into the hereditary nobility. Even in the UK in the last 50 years only three non-royals were given a hereditary peerage. Two of these were elder gentlemen without children. So effectively also in the UK the unofficial policy is followed that there are no elevations into the peerage outside the royal family. This confirms the general impression: the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules. There are no new elevations so it will slowly phase out.

Spain still has a lively nobility with modernised rules which differ quite a lot from the other nobiliary systems, but also there the number of new hereditary nobles is limited. Most new hereditary creations were from the first years of King Juan Carlos.

Changing rules to allow ladies to pass their noble titles is a contradiction with the unwritten policy of slowly phasing out the Nobility.


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