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Stefan 04-30-2008 09:40 AM

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: May 2008
 
Queen Margrethe II. has given her children, children-in-law and grandchildren the addtitional title Count/Countess(Komtesse de Monpezat from today. The Title will be heriditary in the male line

Kongehuset - Aktuelt - Nyheder

norwegianne 04-30-2008 09:52 AM

Interesting news. Thank you, Stefan. :flowers:

Definitely a nice touch for Prince Henrik. Something akin to the Mountbatten-Windsor in the UK.

So, it will be
Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, Count of Monpezat;
Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat;
Prince Christian of Denmark, Count of Montpezat;
Princess Isabella of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat;
Prince Joachim of Denmark, Count of Montpezat;
[Princess Marie of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat]
Prince Nikolai of Denmark, Count of Monpezat
Prince Felix of Denmark, Count of Monpezat.

It will be hereditary for any child born within a legal marriage.

As female descendants get the Danish title Komtesse on their own, (Prinsesse Isabella til Danmark, Komtesse af Monpezat) whereas the spouses get grevinde by way of their husband's title (EG. Prinsesse Marie af Danmark, grevinde af Monpezat)- is there such a distrinction in English?

I'm a bit uncertain as to whether it would be tied-in with the title Prince of Denmark, and whether or not the "legal marriage" would need to have the permission of the monarch for the title to continue, or if it could be a supplement to the Counts of Rosenborg...

Madame Royale 04-30-2008 10:10 AM

Now this is something truly splendid.

norwegianne 04-30-2008 10:21 AM

"The Queen and the Prince Consort have considered this for quite some time, and it has led to the belief that it was the right thing to do," Cabinet secretary Henning Fode.

Monpezat til Frederik og Joachim - Danmark

Empress 04-30-2008 10:29 AM

Well, there are two titles meaning countess in Danish? How odd. On another note, do we know if Marie and Joachims children will also be called Prince/ss?

morhange 04-30-2008 10:34 AM

Perhaps it is like Count of Rosenberg? Or maybe the title that Nikolai & Felix's children will use, similar to the Dutch Royal Family. For example, say Nikolai has a son (we'll call him Joachim :p ) so his son's title might be

His Excellency Count Joachim of Monpezat

Or something to that effect. Is Count of Rosenberg only given in the event of a morganatic marriage? Seeing as now Denmark has a "commoner" Crown Princess, and former and future commoner princesses, perhaps that title will not be used so much anymore. And probably Joachim and Marie's children will be Princes or Princesses. Why not!

I think Komtesse/Grevinde depend on who has the title, just like the til/af Danmark. Isabella is a born member of the DRF, while Mary is just a spouse of the Crown Prince. Isabella holds the title as a Countess by birth, while her mother holds it as a Countess by marriage. I'm not an expert in Danish language or titles, but I think this is correct.

msleiman 04-30-2008 10:49 AM

So Mary hold the title wife of a count. While Isabella hold the title countess?

betina 04-30-2008 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760307)
Well, there are two titles meaning countess in Danish? How odd. On another note, do we know if Marie and Joachims children will also be called Prince/ss?


No there is not. A countess is married to af count while a Komtesse is a daughter of a Count and countess.
I havent yet found a english word for Komtesse yet but I think the most proper one would be Lady.

And for the last question yes they will. Their future children will be HH like their two halfbrothers. They are in line to the throne too.

Paty 04-30-2008 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norwegianne (Post 760290)

As female descendants get the Danish title Komtesse on their own, (Prinsesse Isabella til Danmark, Komtesse af Monpezat) whereas the spouses get grevinde by way of their husband's title (EG. Prinsesse Marie af Danmark, grevinde af Monpezat)- is there such a distrinction in English?

So... Princess Mary and future Princess Marie are Grevinde af Monpezat.?
And other thing...in The Press Release the is nothing about Nikolai and Felix!

And why of Monpezat? I know that Prince Consort is Count on Monpezat, but is the Queen in the right to give that title to his children?

msleiman 04-30-2008 12:33 PM

Count of Monpezat is a Fench Title, not a Danish one right?

Marengo 04-30-2008 01:20 PM

It was a french title (or not a title at all, as the count-claims for Hendrik are shady) but with Queen Margrethe's decision it became a Danish title now.

Stefan 04-30-2008 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760307)
Well, there are two titles meaning countess in Danish? How odd. On another note, do we know if Marie and Joachims children will also be called Prince/ss?

They will as the Queen has given their Consent to the marriage in the Council of State as required in the succession law.
The Komtesse is for unmarried daughters to a certain age (not sure which one). The daughters of Lennart Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg where also called Komtesse Diana, Komtesse Bettina etc. until they reached a certain age.

GlitteringTiaras 04-30-2008 01:47 PM

Huh:cool: Interesting...Monpezat French now Danish. :ermm:

Oh well you can read more about it here and here

norwegianne 04-30-2008 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msleiman (Post 760315)
So Mary hold the title wife of a count. While Isabella hold the title countess?

Essentially, yes. There is a difference in Danish, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paty (Post 760345)
So... Princess Mary and future Princess Marie are Grevinde af Monpezat.?
And other thing...in The Press Release the is nothing about Nikolai and Felix!

Nikolai and Felix are covered by Prince Joachim's title as Christian and Isabella are by their father's. :flowers: They are mentioned in the article from Politiken posted by GlitteringTiaras: Frederik og Joachim bliver grever - Politiken.dk
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paty (Post 760345)
And why of Monpezat? I know that Prince Consort is Count on Monpezat, but is the Queen in the right to give that title to his children?

It's not his title (or lack of it) she's passing on, but she's using his surname to create a new title for his descendants. As the title Count of Rosenborg was initially created by using a place-name (Rosenborg Palace) that had connection to the Danish royals, she has chosen to use a surname that has connection to Prince Henrik's descendants, and give them a title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 760383)
They will as the Queen has given their Consent to the marriage in the Council of State as required in the succession law.
The Komtesse is for unmarried daughters to a certain age (not sure which one). The daughters of Lennart Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg where also called Komtesse Diana, Komtesse Bettina etc. until they reached a certain age.

Komtesse is actually used in Denmark even after marriage, and also as adults. (kvinder.bt.dk: Vi kan ikke være alene article about Komtesse Camilla and Komtesse Josephine of Rosenborg) :flowers:

Empress 04-30-2008 04:07 PM

Well it seems to me that the word Komtesse is easily translated to Countess, while Grevinde is also translated to Countess, but perhaps in different degrees? I can not imagine that Komtesse means Lady, as it seems like a direct aliteration to the French comtesse and grevinde seems to have some correlation to the duch Gravin which is countess.

crm2317 04-30-2008 05:16 PM

Ok please have patience with me while I ask some questions:flowers:

Will the title be hereditary only in the male line? For example through the sons of Christian, Isabella, Nikolai and Felix? Or will it be similar to the dutch family? Where Christian's children are Princes and Princesses while their cousins are Counts and Countesses?

I think it is a lovely idea

BeatrixFan 04-30-2008 05:18 PM

What a sweet thing for HM to do! A nice tribute to her husband. Really lovely.

norwegianne 04-30-2008 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crm2317 (Post 760478)
Ok please have patience with me while I ask some questions:flowers:

Will the title be hereditary only in the male line? For example through the sons of Christian, Isabella, Nikolai and Felix? Or will it be similar to the dutch family? Where Christian's children are Princes and Princesses while their cousins are Counts and Countesses?

As far as I've understood it, from the press release and subsequent news articles - the title will be passed on to descendants born in legal marriages, according to the current rules. The title "Count of Monpezat" will be continued by the male descendants, whereas the females will be given the title "countess of Monpezat"

Given that Isabella is not male, she will not bring the title with her to her children, I would suppose. It might be that she will, as Camilla of Rosenborg did with her suffix, use "of Monpezat" for her children, but that's purely guessing.

No official comment as to your last question has been made, and until such a point, we can only assume that like with existing precedent in the Danish royal family - the children of Prince Nikolai and Prince Felix (and any other males with the title Prince of Denmark) will also be Prince/Princesses of Denmark. It only dies out when permission isn't given for a marriage, or there are only daughters.

crm2317 04-30-2008 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norwegianne (Post 760483)
As far as I've understood it, from the press release and subsequent news articles - the title will be passed on to descendants born in legal marriages, according to the current rules. The title "Count of Monpezat" will be continued by the male descendants, whereas the females will be given the title "countess of Monpezat"

Given that Isabella is not male, she will not bring the title with her to her children, I would suppose. It might be that she will, as Camilla of Rosenborg did with her suffix, use "of Monpezat" for her children, but that's purely guessing.

No official comment as to your last question has been made, and until such a point, we can only assume that like with existing precedent in the Danish royal family - the children of Prince Nikolai and Prince Felix (and any other males with the title Prince of Denmark) will also be Prince/Princesses of Denmark. It only dies out when permission isn't given for a marriage, or there are only daughters.

Thanks so much for your answer Norwegianne! I guess if they chose not to comment further we will just have to wait for the next generation and see which titles the receive:flowers:

Adamari 04-30-2008 06:43 PM

It does not seem fair to me that this new title can only be inherited through the male line, that it cannot be passed on through the female line. That hardly seems appropriate in the 21st century.

Empress 04-30-2008 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norwegianne (Post 760471)

Or it could be a way for Margrethe to begin collecting titles for her descendants; like the ones she didn't take up when she succeeded her father: King/Queen of Denmark, the Wends and the Goths, Duke/Duchess of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Lauenburg and Oldenburg :rofl:


Err... why did she not take up all of her fathers titles? So her only title is Queen Margrethe, and by extension of being married to Henri Comtesse of Montpezant?

morhange 05-01-2008 03:27 AM

The way I understand it, Margrethe chose not to accept the titles.

And I don't find the fact that Isabella not passing the title on to her children strange. When she gets married, she will take her husband's name (though still be HRH Princess Isabella, I'm sure) and her children have their father's name. Perhaps Frederik will change that, but there's never been a case like this before, I dont' think, since Danish princesses have, so far, married other royals/nobles.

Stefan 05-01-2008 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamari (Post 760507)
It does not seem fair to me that this new title can only be inherited through the male line, that it cannot be passed on through the female line. That hardly seems appropriate in the 21st century.

That's the way the nobility work's in most countries. Also in Denmark. And Margrethe made no exception for her own descendants. It would be strange if her granddaughter could pass her title to her descendants and the daugters of other danish Counts can not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by morhange (Post 760606)
The way I understand it, Margrethe chose not to accept the titles.

And I don't find the fact that Isabella not passing the title on to her children strange. When she gets married, she will take her husband's name (though still be HRH Princess Isabella, I'm sure) and her children have their father's name. Perhaps Frederik will change that, but there's never been a case like this before, I dont' think, since Danish princesses have, so far, married other royals/nobles.

She could probably give her children the surname af Monpezat the same way how Countesses Camilla of Rosenborg children are named af Rosensborg without the title.

norwegianne 05-01-2008 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760546)
So her only title is Queen Margrethe, and by extension of being married to Henri Comtesse of Montpezant?

Her only title is actually HM the Queen of Denmark, as Prince Henrik gave up his name and title when they were married. This new creation of titles is not given to Prince Henrik, who remains Prince Henrik of Denmark. :flowers:

betina 05-01-2008 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760546)
Err... why did she not take up all of her fathers titles? So her only title is Queen Margrethe, and by extension of being married to Henri Comtesse of Montpezant?

She coulnt take his fathers titles because they dont have female inheritance in these states :-) and futhermore they are not part of Denmark anymore

HRH Kerry 05-01-2008 06:24 AM

Interesting. I just thought that she would automatically because she was the monarch.

Jo of Palatine 05-01-2008 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760307)
Well, there are two titles meaning countess in Danish? How odd. On another note, do we know if Marie and Joachims children will also be called Prince/ss?

It's the Germanic system - it has a different title for an unmarried daughter and for the wife of an aristocrat. Though today it's not longer in use in Germany, where former titles are part of the name. So there is only a male and a female form.

It used to be "Herzogin" for the wife of a Herzog (duke) and "Fürstin" for the wife of a Fürst (prince) but "Prinzessin" for the daughters of either Herzog or Fürst, the wife of a Graf (Count) was "Gräfin" while the daughter was a Komtesse and "Baronin" for the wife of the Baron and "Baroness" for the daughter. In addition there was the title "Freiherr" for Baron, whose wife was the "Freifrau" and the daughter was the "Freiin".

Same system obviously in Scandinavia.

Stefan 05-01-2008 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine (Post 760656)
It's the Germanic system - it has a different title for an unmarried daughter and for the wife of an aristocrat. Though today it's not longer in use in Germany, where former titles are part of the name. So there is only a male and a female form.

It used to be "Herzogin" for the wife of a Herzog (duke) and "Fürstin" for the wife of a Fürst (prince) but "Prinzessin" for the daughters of either Herzog or Fürst, the wife of a Graf (Count) was "Gräfin" while the daughter was a Komtesse and "Baronin" for the wife of the Baron and "Baroness" for the daughter. In addition there was the title "Freiherr" for Baron, whose wife was the "Freifrau" and the daughter was the "Freiin".

Same system obviously in Scandinavia.

At last the bernadottes have used the Komtesse for the daughters of Count Lennart.
It's not always the case that children of a Fürst ar Princes or Countes. For example in the bavarian Family wrede all membes of the Family bear the Title Fürst/Fürstin.

Jo of Palatine 05-01-2008 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norwegianne (Post 760646)
Her only title is actually HM the Queen of Denmark, as Prince Henrik gave up his name and title when they were married. This new creation of titles is not given to Prince Henrik, who remains Prince Henrik of Denmark. :flowers:

Maybe it's similar to the British queen deciding on Mountbatten-Windsor for her descendants who are not prince/princess. As the Danish Royal family has no family name (see the problem with the Greek exiled Royals who have no family name either, as they were of Danish descent) they now have the "af Monpezat"-title. In fact if Henri de Laborde de Monpezat hadn't married a (then future) queen, his sons would both be Comte de Laborde de Monpezat. So it makes sense to give their father's name to them as an additional Danish title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 760657)
At last the bernadottes have used the Komtesse for the daughters of Count Lennart.
It's not always the case that children of a Fürst ar Princes or Countes. For example in the bavarian Family wrede all membes of the Family bear the Title Fürst/Fürstin.

Count Lennart was not a German Count but his title was a creation of the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. Probably the use of "Komtesse" came from there.

The Wredes used the old system at least till 1918. And I found family trees of the Habsburg where Archduchess Anna Gabriele is written in as born a "Prinzessin von Wrede" - which is the old way it was done in the German monarchies. But of course nowadays the daughters of Barons and Counts take the female form of the family name. While I know quite some princely Houses who insist on the "Prinzessin"-style for the daughters. EG. Sayn, Oettingen, Hohenlohe, Leiningen....

Empress 05-01-2008 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betina (Post 760651)
She coulnt take his fathers titles because they dont have female inheritance in these states :-) and futhermore they are not part of Denmark anymore


Well that's not entirely true as she did become Queen.

betina 05-01-2008 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760664)
Well that's not entirely true as she did become Queen.

I was not talking about the queen of Denmark title but the Ditmarsken, Schleswig-Holstein and so on :flowers:

princess leonor 05-03-2008 08:33 AM

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I didn't know where else to post it: Appretnly the Queen has given both her sons a new title. Both of them get the title Count of Montpezat and their spouses will (naturally) get the titles Countes of Montpezat. It seems a bit strange to me that both princes would get the same title, but maybe that's a common thing in Denmark? Anyway, you can read the article here, it's from Hola:
LOS PRÍNCIPES FEDERICO Y JOAQUÍN DE DINAMARCA ESTRENAN UN NUEVO TÍTULO

Leslie2006 05-12-2008 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress (Post 760307)
Well, there are two titles meaning countess in Danish? How odd.

Not really. It was that way in Imperial Russia---a married grand duchess had a different title in Russian than an unmarried grand duchess, but the English translation is the same for both: Grand Duchess of Russia.

Madame Royale 05-12-2008 12:57 AM

Quote:

It seems a bit strange to me that both princes would get the same title
There's nothing weird about it as it's a dynastic title, not an indavidual one. Conferred upon the descendants of HRH Prince Henrik, The Prine Cconsort and HM The Queen, respectively.

lyndaW 05-12-2008 01:59 PM

I have read and re-read everyones comments, but forgive me I'm still confused:
How can a "Danish" Queen give out French titles ????
Could Queen Elizabeth give out Greek titles???
both Queen's have husbands from another country that is a republic!I could see Queen Margrethe "creating" new Danish titles.

When Frederik & Mary become King & Queen (I hope its many many years in the future) could Fred give a "Scottish" title to Mary's father??????

Amelia 05-12-2008 02:06 PM

:previous: I'm still a little confused myself but from what I can maked out it is not a French Title, it is a Danish Title using Henrik's French name :confused:

LauraMCS 05-12-2008 04:11 PM

It is not a French title. France never recognized Monpezat as a noble family so Margrethe is not stepping on foreign toes by awarding a foreign title. She is merely incorporating her husband's family name into the family name for the sake of posterity. {To remove off-topic comment} It's not unlike the Dutch who use the German name 'Mr(s). van Amsberg' as part of their official name.

It probably would have been better to make the new moniker: Prince(ss) of Denmark, Mr(s) Monpezat instead of Count(ess).

Kotroman 02-16-2009 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyndaW (Post 764784)
I have read and re-read everyones comments, but forgive me I'm still confused:
How can a "Danish" Queen give out French titles ????
Could Queen Elizabeth give out Greek titles???
both Queen's have husbands from another country that is a republic!I could see Queen Margrethe "creating" new Danish titles.

When Frederik & Mary become King & Queen (I hope its many many years in the future) could Fred give a "Scottish" title to Mary's father??????

The Queen of the United Kingdom can create any title she wants. If she wants, she can give her husband the title of Duke of Washington, but that wouldn't be an American title - it would be a British title (in the Peerage of the United Kingdom). After all, Sue Ryder was given the title of "Baroness Ryder of Warsaw". I believe that The Queen of Denmark has the same prerogative.

I've forgot to ask: how far down the line of descent is the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark passed? Will grandchildren of Prince Joachim be Princes of Denmark?

Stefan 02-17-2009 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kotroman (Post 894765)
I've forgot to ask: how far down the line of descent is the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark passed? Will grandchildren of Prince Joachim be Princes of Denmark?

There is no limit. If the marry with the Consent of the Monarch given in the Council of State thei children of Nicolai and Felix will be Prince/Princess of Denmark with the Style of Highness.

QUEENECE29 02-17-2009 05:30 AM

I could not understand why such a change.
Why Prince / Princess instead Count / Comtesse wondered what was intended ...

Princess Robijn 02-17-2009 11:04 AM

They are not Count/Countess instead of Prince/Princess. At this moment it's an additional title.

Josette

Lilla 02-17-2009 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 894779)
There is no limit. If the marry with the Consent of the Monarch given in the Council of State thei children of Nicolai and Felix will be Prince/Princess of Denmark with the Style of Highness.

You are right Stefan.....................but :lol: I don't think Nicolai and Felix will ever become Princesses of Denmark though :nonono:..............for obvious reasons :whistling:....................

iowabelle 02-17-2009 12:36 PM

Am I right in thinking that the Queen's change is the opposite of the way the other royal families seem to be going (for example, that the Wessex children are merely Lord Severn and Lady Louise, the Philips children have no titles; and in Norway for example that Martha Louise's children are merely "Miss")? I wonder why the Queen is intending to create more princes and princesses.

Lilla 02-17-2009 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowabelle (Post 895032)
I wonder why the Queen is intending to create more princes and princesses.

No need to wondre. It isn't titles of princes and princesses she has created but the titles of Count and Countess.

maria-olivia 02-17-2009 12:45 PM

Will that not be confusing with the french Montpezat.?

lyndaW 02-17-2009 01:55 PM

Another thing I am really confused about, perhaps one of you can explain it to me.
WHY is CP Pavlos & Marie-Chantal also known as Prince & Princess of Denmark ? Are their five children also Prince & Princess of Denmark?? They also have a Danish passport??
Also, Princess Benedikte's daughter is also a Princess of Denmark, is her son & other daughter (husband & children) also hold the P of Denmark title?
Does Queen Anne-Marie of Greece's other children also hold the P of Denmark title??
Sorry for all the ?? but it is confusing.
thanks,

Kotroman 02-17-2009 02:17 PM

All Princes of Greece are also Princes of Denmark. That's because the father of King George I of Greece though that the monarchy of Greece is not stable enough (good guess...), so he wanted his son's descendants to remain Danish royalty in order to have some form of protection in Denmark. Therefore, The Crown Prince of Denmark is not a Danish prince because of his mother, but because of his father. The Queen of Spain is thus a Princess of Denmark and member of the extended Danish Royal Family. The Duke of Edinburgh was also a Prince of Denmark.

Princess Benedikte's children are not Princes of Denmark, as far as I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamk (Post 895063)
Decades ago, Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain changed the family name to Mountbatten-Windsor to humor Prince Phillip.

No, she didn't. She just said that her male-line descendants will use the surname of Mountbatten-Windsor, if they are not Princes of the United Kingdom of course. Name of the royal house remains Windsor, though I hope The Prince of Wales will change it to Mountbatten or at least Mountbatten-Windsor upon his accession.

Mandy 02-24-2009 05:15 PM

This thread has been cleaned up. Please remember to post only facts when discussing the reasons why Queen Margrethe created new titles for her descendants. We should also remember that we were not privy to the Regent Couple's thoughts nor the discussions that took place before this decision was made. We should also note that this is not the place to complain about Prince Henrik's character.

Thanks for your cooperation! :flowers:
Mandy

NotAPretender 04-07-2009 05:32 PM

I suppose I'm also confused about this. As was mentioned upthread, it seems as though most Royal families begin to, for lack of a better term, "diminish" the titles as they move down in generations - Russia, England, etc. The title of Count/Countess seems appropriate for the great-grandchildren of a monarch, but not as an additional title to "Prince/Princess," but as a substitute in place of.

It's a kind gesture to her husband to acknowedge his in the titles, but it does seem to be going against the tide.

RoyalistRiley 11-24-2009 02:31 AM

I am a bit confused too. Is giving her entire family the Count/ess of Monpezat the Queen's version of Mountbatten-Windsor?

Madame Royale 11-24-2009 04:07 AM

From Wikipedia...

Quote:

The Queen's children and male-line descendants belong agnatically to the family House of Monpezat and have been given the additional title Count(ess) of Monpezat.
Is it expected that the next ruling dynasty of Denmark shall be the House of Monpezat? Surely the current House shall remain as is.

Lumutqueen 11-29-2009 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madame Royale (Post 1022867)
From Wikipedia...



Is it expected that the next ruling dynasty of Denmark shall be the House of Monpezat? Surely the current House shall remain as is.

Prince Frederik, Prince Christian are members of the House of Monpezat, Frederik will be King of the House of Monpezat. Unfortunately not of House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. :smile:

The Queen has given them the titles Count/ess of Monpezat as sort of an extra title, not a surname as Mountbatten-Windsor is.

Princess Benedikte's children have the surname of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg due to Benediktes marriage to Prince Richard. As Alexandra married a count, her children Ingrid and Richard have the titles Count and Countess.

Madame Royale 11-29-2009 07:39 PM

But isn't it that unless the appropriate measures are taken by the sovereign (Frederik) to change the House name (just as George V did), then it will remain the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksbürg.

Lumutqueen 11-30-2009 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madame Royale (Post 1025032)
But isn't it that unless the appropriate measures are taken by the sovereign (Frederik) to change the House name (just as George V did), then it will remain the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksbürg.

Margrethe the sovereign at the moment, has taken it upon herself to change the house for Frederik. :smile:

Madame Royale 11-30-2009 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumutqueen (Post 1025140)
Margrethe the sovereign at the moment, has taken it upon herself to change the house for Frederik. :smile:

I'm not quite sure that's how it is. Only mention of titles was made. Nothing about changing the dynastic name of the Royal House which would require a royal proclamation stating that the Royal House of Denmark shall henceforth be the House of Monpezat. That is something which would be entirely left for Frederik, not the Queen, to do.

The title was really created for those descendants of the Queen and Prince Consort who will not enjoy the style and title of Royal Highness (the prospective grandchildren of Prince Joachim and the children of Princess Isabella, as it currently stands). I'd imagine those in direct line of succession would continue to uphold the current Dynastic name.

Though until Frederik succeeds, I guess it's just a guessing game.

Lumutqueen 11-30-2009 06:43 AM

I'm just saying that the articles I have read, state that before the family recieved the titles Count/ess of Monpezat, the house was that of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksbürg. But now Frederik, Mary, Christian, Isabella, Joachim, Marie, Nikolai, Felix and Henrik belong to the House of Laborde de Monpezat not the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksbürg. :smile:

Warren 03-03-2010 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumutqueen (Post 1025169)
But now Frederik, Mary, Christian, Isabella, Joachim, Marie, Nikolai, Felix and Henrik belong to the House of Laborde de Monpezat. :smile:

No they don't. The additional titles granted by the Queen are irrelevant to this issue. There's no expectation that the House name will change following the occasion of a Queen regnant. In any case, if there was to be such a change it wouldn't occur until the Queen's death and accession of the new Sovereign. Of course Frederik could have it both ways by declaring himself the first monarch of the new House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg-Laborde de Monpezat (SHSGLdM for short :biggrin:) but I think it unlikely.

The House of Orange didn't become the House of Mecklenburg-(Schwerin) with Queen Juliana or the House of Lippe-Biesterfeld with Queen Beatrix, nor did Grand Duke Jean drop the dynastic/House name of Nassau when he technically became the first Grand Duke of the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma's Luxembourg branch.

I don't believe we'll see many instances of changed House names as they represent national identity and/or dynastic continuity. For example, I'd expect that if or when the future Queen Victoria of Sweden is succeeded by her heir, that King or Queen will remain a Bernadotte and not become the first monarch of the House of Westling.

Muhler 11-29-2012 09:35 AM

I guess we can put this one here.

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #48, 2012.
Where a Mogens Q. Andersen would like to learn more on when someone is called a Majesty in Denmark.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies.

In DK that applies to: A king and his queen. And upon his death his widow.
These three have the titel of Majesty, no one else. And they are addressed "Your Majesty" and referred to as "His/Her Majesty".

The husband of a ruling queen has the title of Prince Consort and is addressed "Your Royal Highness".

These rules are Danish. In other countries there can be only one majesty and in some countries the widow of king will lose the title of majesty.
We have those rules because that has become an established costum.

- So Mary will the second QMII dies, become Her Majesty Queen Mary. And she will keep that title until she dies, divorce Frederik or DK becomes a republic.

Should Isabella become queen instead of Christian, her husband, will get the title of prince consort and become a royal higness.

NGalitzine 05-11-2013 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bosco (Post 1550629)
Crown Prince Fredrick considers himself a member The House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg correct?
The BRF is the house of Windsor by royal decree but patrilineally is of the The House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
The Prince of Wales as well as the Duke of Cambridge belong to the House of Glücksburg through Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark.
My question is , will the Danish Royal House continue to be of the line of Glücksburg because the Prince Consort is French?

I guess we will find out when Frederik comes to the throne, but there is no good reason to change the dynastic name. The House of Orange still reigns in The Netherlands even though the male line ended with Willem III.

vkrish 05-11-2013 02:53 PM

I guess Prinsgemalen has to throw another tantrum and retreat to his French vineyards to get his wish fulfilled (add Mozepat to the name of Royal House)..

FasterB 05-11-2013 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bosco (Post 1550629)
My question is , will the Danish Royal House continue to be of the line of Glücksburg because the Prince Consort is French?

I think it´s safe to say that the DRF will continue to be Glücksborg, because you are always sure of the child´s mother, but not the father ;)

Mariel 05-12-2013 12:26 AM

Maybe Mary would rather be Monpezat than Glucksberg, etc Maybe she likes the French connection.

FasterB 05-12-2013 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariel (Post 1550778)
Maybe Mary would rather be Monpezat than Glucksberg, etc Maybe she likes the French connection.

If you had written Marie, then yes, but Mary no :smile:

NGalitzine 05-12-2013 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariel (Post 1550778)
Maybe Mary would rather be Monpezat than Glucksberg, etc Maybe she likes the French connection.

Can't see why it would matter what she thinks since she will never be the monarch. Anyway, its not like she will ever use a surname since she will go from being HRH Crown Princess Mary of Denmark to HM Queen Mary of Denmark, assuming she stays married to Frederik and Denmark remains a monarchy.

crown 02-15-2014 06:07 PM

Titles
 
I do realise this is an old thread bur I'm new here so bear with me as I confuse matters more. :smile:

When Danish royal titles are translated into English it will be Prince/esse of Denmark. This is not incorrect but in Danish we use 2 different prepositions depending on the person's place in the line of succession.
Frederik is Crown Prince to Denmark ('to' because the throne will most likely be his one day)
Mary is Crown Princess of Denmark ('of' in her case because she came by the title by marriage)
More examples:
The Duke of Edinborough is also Prince of Denmark (he is the decendant of a Danish king but no longer in the line of succesion).
Interestingly Joachim's and Marie's children are no longer 'to' but 'of' Denmark.
People are speculating that Nikolaj and Felix will inherit their mother's title and be counts of Rosenborg. Or their future spouses will be Countesses of Rosenborg. This is purely specuation!
Nikolaj, Felix, Henrik and Athena are still in the line of succession but it will take a tragedy of epic proportions for either of them to take the throne and maybe that's why they are 'of' rather than 'to' Denmark.

Muhler 02-15-2014 06:20 PM

:previous: Congratulations on your first posts and welcome. :smile:

A minor correction though. Both Athena and bette Henrik are to Denmark. As they are both in the Line of Succession. - Just to be sure I checked the DRF website.

crown 02-15-2014 06:22 PM

I stand corrected. Thanks ;-)

Kataryn 10-14-2018 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARG (Post 2158697)
That's not necessarily so. Prince Philip may have been impoverished but he was nonetheless a Prince of Greece and Denmark. Not only did they make him renounce his title and his nationality and gave him the empty title of Duke of Edinburgh. His blood was just as royal as Elizabeth's and they didn't even make him Prince Consort which Margrethe husband Henrik was.


Plus Margarethe II. of Denmark gave her sons and all their children the title of Greve/Grevinde af Monpezat as a personal title. As she used "Grevinde" for her granddaughters, she made that clear - as daughter of a count they would have been komtesse af Monpezat. As Denmark knows Countesses in their own right who may leave their title to their sons, I guess that means that these granddaughters of the souverain have indeed titles ror their children to inherit.

Somebody 10-14-2018 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kataryn (Post 2158815)
Plus Margarethe II. of Denmark gave her sons and all their children the title of Greve/Grevinde af Monpezat as a personal title. As she used "Grevinde" for her granddaughters, she made that clear - as daughter of a count they would have been komtesse af Monpezat. As Denmark knows Countesses in their own right who may leave their title to their sons, I guess that means that these granddaughters of the souverain have indeed titles ror their children to inherit.

While no longer about Jack's title... According to kongehuset.dk Margrethe's granddaughters are 'komtesse', her daughters-in-law are 'grevinde'. I haven't seen any evidence that the Monpezat title is hereditary in female line.

Iolanthe 10-14-2018 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kataryn (Post 2158815)
Plus Margarethe II. of Denmark gave her sons and all their children the title of Greve/Grevinde af Monpezat as a personal title. As she used "Grevinde" for her granddaughters, she made that clear - as daughter of a count they would have been komtesse af Monpezat. As Denmark knows Countesses in their own right who may leave their title to their sons, I guess that means that these granddaughters of the souverain have indeed titles ror their children to inherit.

As far as I understand it, the Monpezat-title is only hereditary for descendants in the male-line. (And I really think that that's ridicoulus, especially considering how often Henrik complained about his sexist and unfair title (e.g. not being called a king). While I think that he had a point there, it seems rather childish and illogical to me to complain about that and issue such dated discriminatory titles a little later.)

Kataryn 10-14-2018 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iolanthe (Post 2158822)
As far as I understand it, the Monpezat-title is only hereditary for descendants in the male-line. (And I really think that that's ridicoulus, especially considering how often Henrik complained about his sexist and unfair title (e.g. not being called a king). While I think that he had a point there, it seems rather childish and illogical to me to complain about that and issue such dated discriminatory titles a little later.)


A unmarried Grevinde is a countess in her own right while the unmarried daughter of a Count is a komtesse. Officially, Isabella, Josephine and Athena are "Grevinde af Monpezat", thus the title is theirs in their own right and they can leave it to their children. AFAIK - I will look it up, so we can be sure.


So, just checked it. There is no official announcement, just a press notice from 2008, but on the Danish page of the Royal House of denmark, Isabella is named as Princess of Denmark and komtesse af Monpezat, meaning she only helds this title as the daughter of a count, while her brothers are Counts in their own right. So - no titles for Isabella's and the other girls' children.

JR76 10-14-2018 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kataryn (Post 2158815)
Plus Margarethe II. of Denmark gave her sons and all their children the title of Greve/Grevinde af Monpezat as a personal title. As she used "Grevinde" for her granddaughters, she made that clear - as daughter of a count they would have been komtesse af Monpezat. As Denmark knows Countesses in their own right who may leave their title to their sons, I guess that means that these granddaughters of the souverain have indeed titles ror their children to inherit.

Queen Margrethe only did that because it was discovered that the Monpezat comital title was an assumed one and that even the family´s noble status rested on shaky ground. As it happened it turned out to be perfectly timed with her husband becoming more outspoken about his feelings about his royal title. In a way, to me, it seems this was a Danish version of the British declaration regarding the name Mountbatten-Windsor. A way to assure Prince Henrik that his name would live on in the royal family.

Somebody 10-14-2018 12:43 PM

Moved the discussion from the Jack's Brooksbank thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kataryn (Post 2158834)
A unmarried Grevinde is a countess in her own right while the unmarried daughter of a Count is a komtesse. Officially, Isabella, Josephine and Athena are "Grevinde af Monpezat", thus the title is theirs in their own right and they can leave it to their children. AFAIK - I will look it up, so we can be sure.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I looked it up on their official website and they are comtesse not grevinde! So, just daughters of a count of Monpezat.

As apparently you aren't convinced that they use the correct titles on their official website :flowers: I found the official press release. It explains that male descendants will be 'greve', their wives 'grevinde' and female descendants will carry the title 'komtesse', including the example of Henrik's than only granddaughter Isabella. It's noteworthy that they used a different word for the male descendants (who will contine the title) vs female descendants (who will only 'carry' the title). It also references acfording to the current regulations. I wonder whether that was added to make sure that if Denmark at some point makes nobility titles herdeitary in both male and female, this would also apply to this title. Another requirement for passing on the title is a lawful marriage.

Iolanthe 10-14-2018 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2158842)
It also references acfording to the current regulations. I wonder whether that was added to make sure that if Denmark at some point makes nobility titles herdeitary in both male and female, this would also apply to this title. Another requirement for passing on the title is a lawful marriage.

So at the moment Danish nobility titles are never hereditary in the female line?
Would it have been possible for Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik to make the Monpezat title herederitary regardless of gender despite that costum?

Duc_et_Pair 10-14-2018 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 2158841)
Queen Margrethe only did that because it was discovered that the Monpezat comital title was an assumed one and that even the family´s noble status rested on shaky ground. As it happened it turned out to be perfectly timed with her husband becoming more outspoken about his feelings about his royal title. In a way, to me, it seems this was a Danish version of the British declaration regarding the name Mountbatten-Windsor. A way to assure Prince Henrik that his name would live on in the royal family.

I have always seen this as the Danish version of the Dutch example (graaf / gravin Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg) to distinguish the main line which will procreate as HRH Prince/Princess of Denmark (Margrethe - Frederik - Christian) from the junior lines which will procreate in the comital family de Monpezat. Very much alike the comital family of Rosenborg.

Mbruno 10-14-2018 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2158845)
I have always seen this as the Danish version of the Dutch example (graaf / gravin Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg) to distinguish the main line which will procreate as HRH Prince/Princess of Denmark (Margrethe - Frederik - Christian) from the junior lines which will procreate in the comital family de Monpezat. Very much alike the comital family of Rosenborg.


But Christian is also a "greve af Monpezat" as will be his sons. We don't know yet if Joachim's grandchildren in male line will also be princes/princesses or just counts/countesses of Monpezat.

JR76 10-14-2018 01:04 PM

Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2158845)
I have always seen this as the Danish version of the Dutch example (graaf / gravin Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg) to distinguish the main line which will procreate as HRH Prince/Princess of Denmark (Margrethe - Frederik - Christian) from the junior lines which will procreate in the comital family de Monpezat. Very much alike the comital family of Rosenborg.



The biggest difference being that at least so far the eventual founders of a future comital family of Monpezat are still Prince and styled HRH and HH.

Tatiana Maria 10-14-2018 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 2158841)
Queen Margrethe only did that because it was discovered that the Monpezat comital title was an assumed one and that even the family´s noble status rested on shaky ground. As it happened it turned out to be perfectly timed with her husband becoming more outspoken about his feelings about his royal title. In a way, to me, it seems this was a Danish version of the British declaration regarding the name Mountbatten-Windsor. A way to assure Prince Henrik that his name would live on in the royal family.

I cannot see the Danish royal family having concerns about the possible legal shakiness of a foreign title (I have only heard about the courtesy titles being assumed, not the noble status as such), because the Danish monarchy addresses the queen's sister and her family by Greek royal titles which long ago became illegal according to Greek law. (However, if there is a source which mentions it, I would appreciate a reference, in the "New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: May 2008" topic. https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2158842) I would speculate that Prince Henrik requested for his male-line descendants to carry his family name and title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2158845)
I have always seen this as the Danish version of the Dutch example (graaf / gravin Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg) to distinguish the main line which will procreate as HRH Prince/Princess of Denmark (Margrethe - Frederik - Christian) from the junior lines which will procreate in the comital family de Monpezat. Very much alike the comital family of Rosenborg.

But the Rosenborg lines are not Rosenborgs because they are junior lines, but because they are descendants from unapproved marriages.

Tatiana Maria 10-14-2018 02:09 PM

Here is a link to the text of the press release of April 30 2008, which Somebody's source posted in image form.



Pressemeddelelse

Amalienborg, den 30. april 2008

Hendes Majestæt Dronningen har besluttet, at Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsen samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim tillægges titel af ’greve af Monpezat’. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachims kommende ægtefælle frk. Marie Cavallier vil som følge heraf føre titlen ’grevinde af Monpezat’.

Titlen føres endvidere af efterkommere født i lovligt ægteskab, i overensstemmelse med de almindelige regler, der gælder herom, hvilket vil sige, at titlen ’greve af Monpezat’ videreføres af mandlige descendenter, medens kvindelige descendenter fører titlen ’komtesse af Monpezat’.

Der er tale om en ny, yderligere titel der kan anvendes i tilknytning til de eksisterende. Titlen berører ikke de nugældende prædikater. Navn og titel vil herefter i kort form eksempelvis kunne være:

. Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprins Frederik, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary, grevinde af Monpezat
. Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Isabella, komtesse af Monpezat

Eventuelle henvendelser på denne pressemeddelelse bedes rettet til Kabinetssekretariatet på telefon 3340 2484.


Henning Fode
Hendes Majestæt Dronningens Kabinetssekretær

MLC 03-13-2019 03:42 PM

So what title will Prince Joachim’s grandkids have? Will they be style as Prince/princess ?

Muhler 03-13-2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLC (Post 2203867)
So what title will Prince Joachim’s grandkids have? Will they be style as Prince/princess ?

Congratulations on your first post. :flowers:

That's up to the monarch, most likely Frederik, to decide.

My best guess is: Almost certainly no. If it's boys they will Counts of Montpezat if girls they will be (Komtesse) comtessa of Montpezat, until they marry.

Somebody 03-13-2019 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 2203871)
Congratulations on your first post. :flowers:

That's up to the monarch, most likely Frederik, to decide.

My best guess is: Almost certainly no. If it's boys they will Counts of Montpezat if girls they will be (Komtesse) comtessa of Montpezat, until they marry.

Except for grandchildren by Athena. I would expect them to carry their father's surname (and title if applicable). Or would you think differently?

Muhler 03-13-2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody (Post 2203885)
Except for grandchildren by Athena. I would expect them to carry their father's surname (and title if applicable). Or would you think differently?

Alas, yes you are right.

Athena has no title to pass on to her children, unless Frederik says OK to her children remaining royals - most unlikely IMO.

MLC 03-13-2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 2203886)
Alas, yes you are right.

Athena has no title to pass on to her children, unless Frederik says OK to her children remaining royals - most unlikely IMO.


So Nikolai’s, Felix’s and Henrik’s children will Be style as counts

but I thought the title of Prince was passed down if the Prince married with permission of the monarch m?

I guess will have to wait until one of the Princes gets married to find out what title will their children hold

Somebody 03-13-2019 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLC (Post 2203896)
So Nikolai’s, Felix’s and Henrik’s children will Be style as counts

but I thought the title of Prince was passed down if the Prince married with permission of the monarch m?

I guess will have to wait until one of the Princes gets married to find out what title will their children hold

A simple way to keep the size of the royal family small is to ('suggest' non-mainline grandchildren of a monarch) not (to) ask for permission from the monarch to get married. In that way, it is clear that the monarch isn't opposed to the marriage but isn't required to keep growing the royal family.

Something similar was for example done regarding prince Pieter-Christiaan and prince Floris in the Netherlands. They didn't ask for permission while their older brothers did. Main reason being that their brothers were the first of their generations to marry but since both the crown prince and his younger brother had married and had children. So, they weren't needed to secure the thtone (and would loose their rights upon their cousin ascending the throne several years in the future0.

Muhler 03-13-2019 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLC (Post 2203896)
So Nikolai’s, Felix’s and Henrik’s children will Be style as counts

but I thought the title of Prince was passed down if the Prince married with permission of the monarch m?

I guess will have to wait until one of the Princes gets married to find out what title will their children hold

Not automatically. (*) Because Joachim's grandchildren will be so far away from the throne that it makes no sense to make them royals as well. Otherwise we would have about 281 royals running around all over the place in a couple of generations!
It's by no means certain Joachim's children will retain their royal titles upon marrying. - It's up to the monarch.

It's another matter with M&F's children. They are much closer to the throne and even Josephine has a chance, albeit small, to end up on the throne.
their children may very well be royals as well, but apart from Christian that's where the royal line will stop for Isabella, Vincent and Josephine IMO.

Of course it's likely to expect that one or more of M&F's children will marry and settle abroad, perhaps Australia... and do a Madeleine of Sweden. (Who is gradually turning into Mrs. O'Neil.)
Or one or more of them may simply give up their royal titles.

(*) It's a Catch 22. You give up your royal title in order to get the monarchs approval to marry.
Or you lose your royal title because you don't marry with the monarch's approval.
So if the monarch decides you are going to lose your royal title, you will lose it, unless you do an Elisabeth.

Tatiana Maria 03-13-2019 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 2203905)
Not automatically. (*)

(*) It's a Catch 22. You give up your royal title in order to get the monarchs approval to marry.
Or you lose your royal title because you don't marry with the monarch's approval.
So if the monarch decides you are going to lose your royal title, you will lose it, unless you do an Elisabeth.

There is an informal custom though that every prince (and since the end of Salic law in 1953, princess) who retained their place in the line of succession after marriage has been allowed to pass on his or her title (although Princess Benedikte's husband declined). While I agree with you that the monarch could change this custom, I agree with Somebody that the simplest solution would be for Joachim's children not to officially request the monarch's permission to marry, and therefore automatically remove themselves from the order of succession under article 5 of the Act of Succession.


Quote:

Originally Posted by betina (Post 760651)
She coulnt take his fathers titles because they dont have female inheritance in these states :-) and futhermore they are not part of Denmark anymore

Those states are defunct, but if that was the view of the Danish Royal Family surely King Christian IX should have been the one to drop them (and the states themselves).

The male monarch King Carl Gustaf did the same, dropping the Wends and Goths from his title.

victor1319 03-13-2019 07:02 PM

I tumbled about this in the "Portal" and I must say, I find it somewhat funny, that the title of the Countess ends with the marriage of the girl!


Who's idea was this?


I mean, Denmark has a Queen! Whatever line, under this rule, the danish royal family is french now!


Is this some kind of revenge by the deceased Prince, who never became King?

Duc_et_Pair 03-13-2019 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victor1319 (Post 2203938)
I tumbled about this in the "Portal" and I must say, I find it somewhat funny, that the title of the Countess ends with the marriage of the girl!


Who's idea was this?


I mean, Denmark has a Queen! Whatever line, under this rule, the danish royal family is french now!


Is this some kind of revenge by the deceased Prince, who never became King?

It is exactly the same as in your country Germany where nobility is only hereditary in the male lineage. In "egalitarian" Netherlands it was established by the Govdtnment that the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules: the Dutch decided not to change these rules. After all: when the policy is to phase it out slowly (the Nobility is declining since it is "frozen" since WWII) it makes no sense to open all doors my taking away all (gender) limitations on hereditary nobility. We may expect a similar unofficial policy regarding the Nobility in the North European monarchies. Even Belgium does not create hereditary nobles anymore, the same in the UK.

Tatiana Maria 03-13-2019 08:05 PM

For legal purposes, German nobility was abolished by the 1919 constitution, but the noble titles are legally family names which can, since changes to the law, be inherited in both male and female lineage.
Even in bygone ages German noblewomen typically retained their titles after marriage, unless they married beneath their station.

victor1319 03-14-2019 05:28 AM

Everything goes...
 
Believe me, Duc et Pair, the german laws about surnames are like "everything goes".

Over the "nobility" of the persons watches a comitee, Der Deutsche Adelsrechtsausschuß, but this comitee is without legal powers. Albeit, what consequences its decisions have in the social life of the nobility and royalty... I have no idea, honestly.

This comitee presides too over the "Gotha", a book which claims to know, who is "really" noble or not. Some kind of the "Who is who" of noble circles...

Muhler 03-14-2019 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victor1319 (Post 2203938)
I tumbled about this in the "Portal" and I must say, I find it somewhat funny, that the title of the Countess ends with the marriage of the girl!


Who's idea was this?


I mean, Denmark has a Queen! Whatever line, under this rule, the danish royal family is french now!


Is this some kind of revenge by the deceased Prince, who never became King?

Yes, it is a bit weird.
And I do think it's a bit unfair that Athena can't become a countess in her own right.
But the whole concept about nobility and indeed royalty is anything but about equality.

It made perfect sense beforehand, when a noble girl married into her husband's family - not the other was around.

Duc_et_Pair 03-14-2019 02:37 PM

None of the current Continental monarchs have elevated persons outside the royal family into the hereditary nobility. Even in the UK in the last 50 years only three non-royals were given a hereditary peerage. Two of these were elder gentlemen without children. So effectively also in the UK the unofficial policy is followed that there are no elevations into the peerage outside the royal family. This confirms the general impression: the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules. There are no new elevations so it will slowly phase out.

Spain still has a lively nobility with modernised rules which differ quite a lot from the other nobiliary systems, but also there the number of new hereditary nobles is limited. Most new hereditary creations were from the first years of King Juan Carlos.

Changing rules to allow ladies to pass their noble titles is a contradiction with the unwritten policy of slowly phasing out the Nobility.


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