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nwinther 05-17-2011 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricarda (Post 1254469)
Because I would say there are not many people in Denmark who wish(ed) Joachim was CP, even among those who are critical towards Frederik.
(In the last ~7 years I have only once seen that opinion expressed - in the book of "royal expert" Trine Villeman - and by the reaction her book received in Dk I dare say she did not express the opinion of "many Danes". ;))

While I'm surely a minority, I can attest to that sentiment. IMO, Joachim would be a superiour king compared to Frederik. Sure, I accept Frederik as my eventual Sovereign - especially as he is reinforced by the presence of a most excellent wife and queen. But I would still think Joachim would be better for the job.

So - now you've seen it twice.

ricarda 05-17-2011 06:20 PM

Well, I wrote "not many". ;)
And we have a saying in my country: "A king, who finds"
It was Frederik who found Mary and supported her in a way so she could become what she is today.

Joachim - I experienced him in real life and found him very unappealing/arrogant/stiff (this was just a 15 minute impression of course, I don't really know him). But I really can't see what would make him a superior king. After all a main part of the job is to represent. And it's never good when a representative gives the impression of arrogance.

Muhler 05-18-2011 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricarda (Post 1254525)
Well, I wrote "not many". ;)
And we have a saying in my country: "A king, who finds"
It was Frederik who found Mary and supported her in a way so she could become what she is today.

Joachim - I experienced him in real life and found him very unappealing/arrogant/stiff (this was just a 15 minute impression of course, I don't really know him). But I really can't see what would make him a superior king. After all a main part of the job is to represent. And it's never good when a representative gives the impression of arrogance.

In the eyes of the beholder perhaps? :smile:
I'd say people of different gender, background or age can have a very different look on someone.

Let's start with his appearance.
I may be "environmentally damaged" but I respect someone who do the extra effort in doing things correctly, also when it comes to dressing and behaving correctly. "Fashionable casual" doesn't impress me.
It's my impression that such people also go the extra mile in regards to their homework. And I find it appropriate that people dress up for the occasion (and in order to represent what they come from. In Joachim's case DK and the DRF) rather than people who dress up more casual or "folksy", if you like. What they are really saying is: "Look at meee"! (Or worse: "I don't really care") It's disrespect for the occasion.
Whether we aknowledge it or not, appearance is important.

His work.
Whatever the subject may be, I'll dare anyone to come up with an example in the past fifteen years or so, where Joachim were asked questions about something he attended, which he couldn't answer. Or was unable to talk at length about the same subject. He does his homework properly and I respect that as well.
However mindboglingly tedious an event J. is attending appears to be, he always appear interested. There are no blank stares or sleepy eyes. That's good representation. That's what I expect from a man in his position.

Articulate.
Yes, Joachim is blessed with the gift of being articulate. I'd still say that it takes work and preparation to be good at something. Your talent will only get you this far.
I'll also say that being articulate comes with growing confidence. Confidence in knowing that you are well prepared and from past victories.

Folksy.
Admitted, in the eyes of many (mostly women perhaps?) Joachim appear arrogant and stiff. Have you ever considered that it might be his "shield"? His professional distance, if you like.
That a man appears arrogant may not be because he really is arrogant, it may be because he is not comfortable with you getting too close. In his position it may not be a good idea to be too "folksy". Especially considering the tasks he usually undertakes. I.e. business, commerce and diplomatic representation.

I genuinely respect people who are good at what they do and who do their best when they are on the job. That's why I respect Mary so much.

King.
Joachim is not a "man of the people" and he shouldn't try to be, he will only fail. That doesn't mean he would be a poor king. I'm in no doubt that Joachim would be a very competent king, had the tables been turned.
But Frederik would still be more popular, I'm certain about that.
Popularity is not the same as competence. Popularity is a tenous thing, it can so easily evaporate. Being popular is not the same as being respected. - We need to keep that in mind and sometimes look inside the person, no matter how much or how little we may like him personally.

The real test of any monarch comes when the people look at him/her for guidance.

ricarda 05-18-2011 07:31 AM

[edit-JessRulz]

I am actually not very interested in Joachim and don't have the time to discuss him.
The only interesting question for me is: why do some (few) think he would make a superior king than Frederik?
I said Joachim didn't make a good impression on me. I never said he isn' t doing his homework. Probably he would be competent as a king.
But superior to Frederik? Not in my opinion.

I don't think popularity just happens, it's based on certain abilities. I think it's possible to be respected without being popular, but I don't think it's possible to be (or stay) popular without being respected. And as popularity "can so easily evaporate" (Joachim is a good example for that) I think it's actually a sign of competence to stay so popular for so long (as Frederik does).

But until that test of any monarch comes along - which IMO Frederik would pass much better than Joachim (whom his first wife, the very intelligent Alexandra, attested the backbone of a gummibear) - we can just agree to disagree. :cool:

nwinther 05-18-2011 08:00 AM

You have some very good points Muhler. I especially like your "arrogance" interpretation, where some apparantly find J to come off as arrogant in certain situations, I find Frederik to come off as fidgity, insecure, confused and even scared. Seeing him and Mary in Aalborg after the wedding, he seemed like a deer caught in the headlights when walking slong the spectators.

With J, I get a feeling of a person who can grasp and manage a situation - even a stressful one. Frederik rarely seems in control and never in a comfortable way.

When it comes to popularity, sure it's nice for a powerful man to also be popular. But "man of the people" isn't what I'm looking up to in a king. If you look at Churchill, he was very popular. But he was also extremely arrogant and miles away from being a "man of the people" in the "folksy" sense. I think the right word is "dignity", and J just seems more dignified than F.

lyndaW 05-18-2011 12:19 PM

Mr Muhler,
Your posts are very senstive & insightful about Joachim

All the other Royal famalies interact with each other and get to know each other..........however Joachim seems to never be invitated to any Royal events and doesn;t seem to have any friends from the other Royal Houses......he wasn't even invitated to the Greek wedding (his owns first cousins)....Benedicktte could have been Regent. Now another family wedding is coming up of another first cousin, Nathalie ........

He and Marie (both speaking French) would be a delight at the Monaco wedding........but I bet he won't be invitated

Is their a reason he is always excluded from royal events ?

SweetRomanza 05-18-2011 12:39 PM

Joachim was @ the royal wedding in Greece last year. Frederik was the absentee.

lyndaW 05-18-2011 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza (Post 1254867)
Joachim was @ the royal wedding in Greece last year. Frederik was the absentee.

Thank you, I forgot he and Marie were their

Muhler 05-18-2011 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyndaW (Post 1254861)
Mr Muhler,
Your posts are very senstive & insightful about Joachim

All the other Royal famalies interact with each other and get to know each other..........however Joachim seems to never be invitated to any Royal events and doesn;t seem to have any friends from the other Royal Houses......he wasn't even invitated to the Greek wedding (his owns first cousins)....Benedicktte could have been Regent. Now another family wedding is coming up of another first cousin, Nathalie ........

He and Marie (both speaking French) would be a delight at the Monaco wedding........but I bet he won't be invitated

Is their a reason he is always excluded from royal events ?

Thank you Mrs. LyndaW :smile:

SweetRomanza has already answered in regards to the Greek wedding.

I don't know how much the secondary royals interact. Not that much I guess.
The CP couples from DK, Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands have certainly developed a close relationship and considering their position it's not only a good thing, it's wise as well.
Joachim will certainly know the Greek royals well from childhood but apart from the occasional family gathering I don't think they see eachother much. Nor do the Greek royals see that much of M&F for that matter.
I've heard Joachim has a good relationship with Prince Edward, but whether they are actual friends I don't know.
The secondary Swedish royals don't seem to have many royal friends either, not even M&F, whom they both know very well,
So it's a question how much the secondary royals associate at all?

Well, I do think J&M will go to the wedding in Monaco, if for no other reason that Mary will still be on maternity leave by then.

As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

missMaryanne 05-18-2011 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1254268)
Joachim has been decribed as hot-tempered and moody in the past, an unbalanced Jekyll&Hyde character, unlike Frederik.

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

i agree with you. i don't think an unbalanced character is what a future king needs.

i also think that a weak character is very bad on a future king. a future king needs to be strong, but sensitive at the same time.

and sometimes i think frederik is a little bit underestimated.

Sternchen 05-18-2011 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1254665)
However mindboglingly tedious an event J. is attending appears to be, he always appear interested. There are no blank stares or sleepy eyes. That's good representation. That's what I expect from a man in his position.

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

Muhler 05-18-2011 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1254883)
That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

Touche. :smile:

But then she is Marie. And I think she can charm herself out of most situations.
- I predict we are going to see a lot of wonderful goofs from her. And many, myself included, are going to like her for that.

ricarda 05-18-2011 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwinther (Post 1254748)
where some apparantly find J to come off as arrogant in certain situations, I find Frederik to come off as fidgity, insecure, confused and even scared. Seeing him and Mary in Aalborg after the wedding, he seemed like a deer caught in the headlights when walking slong the spectators.With J, I get a feeling of a person who can grasp and manage a situation - even a stressful one... and J just seems more dignified than F.

IIRC this discussion started with a situation Joachim did not grasp and manage with dignity. Not to mention all the other situations he didn't manage too well. I don't think he did anything really awful but one tends to be less "forgiving" with arrogant people.
And Frederik managed a very difficult military training. To me that says enough about his strength and courage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwinther (Post 1254748)
When it comes to popularity, sure it's nice for a powerful man to also be popular. But "man of the people" isn't what I'm looking up to in a king. If you look at Churchill, he was very popular. But he was also extremely arrogant and miles away from being a "man of the people" in the "folksy" sense. I think the right word is "dignity",.

Churchill was not a king, he was a politician and actually a leader who guided the people through difficult times. That's why he was popular.
Besides, he lived in a very different age. I doubt a politician like him would be possible nowadays (unless there is a 3rd world war). But I find it telling that you bring him up when discussing Joachim's arrogance.

I think Queen Margrethe has already proven that there is something in between folksyness and arrogance. Although not folksy she is a popular monarch and does not come across as arrogant. She has real dignity. IMO Joachim just has the facade.

Btw, here is a link to an interesting article about a poll which was conducted in March last year and whose results were compared with polls in 2004 and 2009. Question: How do the Danish royals perform their tasks? https://trondni.blogspot.com/2010/04/...gs-mostly.html
Joachim and Marie don't seem to receive much approval.

SweetRomanza 05-18-2011 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1254883)
That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

FasterB 05-18-2011 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1254875)
As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

Or perhaps something completely new: Princess Elizabeth :whistling::rofl::whistling:

ricarda 05-18-2011 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza (Post 1254950)
Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly?

Could be, when she is listening to Danish speeches.
But she also appeared desinterested when listening to French and English speeches.

dazzling 05-19-2011 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza (Post 1254950)
I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

I would assume it was Marie wanting to be perfect while saying her speech & since it is anew language to her she might not be perfect therefore she rehearsals over and over.
I don't find it weird or anything, as sometimes when I have a university presentation I would go over and over what I would have to say.

Muhler 05-19-2011 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza (Post 1254950)
I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

Perhaps.
But if I am to be honest I think it's because she is Marie - a bad hypocrite.
When you look at Marie's face, you get what she feels at that moment - for better or for worse. An honest face.
She may try to put up the right face, but she's not very good at it.
Even though I'm biased, I find it refreshing, genuine - honesty is not the worst thing in the world.

However, were Joachim, Frederik or Mary to do the same thing I would consider it somewhat rude, because they can put their faces in the right folds and they do it quite often.
A contradiction I know, but that's the charm with our Marie. - And who says all my arguments has to be objective? ;)

nwinther 05-19-2011 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1255152)
Hm, sometimes I think people take these things a bit too serious.

Let me make one thing absolutely clear, no one, no one at all should ever demand of me that my arguments should be consistent or not.
The world is not black and white, Nwinther.

Sometimes I look at the screen in bisbelief.
Marie and Joachim - and the rest of the DRF are human beings. And human beings have faults, repeat faults.
That doesn't make them bad persons, it doesn't make them incompetent and it doesn't make them less likable.
When reading some of the critique here, I often get the distinct feeling that some critizise a particular person for no other reason that they simply don't like that person.

Now, I happen to like Marie and I happen to respect Joachim. That doesn't mean that they don't have faults. Of course they do, just like any other human being and I aknowledge that.
I take a perverted delight in defending Joachim and Marie and praising them whenever I can, especially when they recieve, what I see as unnecessary critizism.

Try look at things in a more nuanced way.

"Lighten up, Francis" - Sgt. Hulka

Personally, I try and be objective (a contradiction by definition, I know) and consistent, meaning that if I critisize X for embarrasing themselves by doing something, then Y, doing exactly the same would also be subject to my critizism.

Now, some people revel in seeing J as arrogant. It reinforces their own perception of the man - confirming ones prejudices is everyones favourite. This means it's hard for J to do anything right. Same goes for Marie. If you percive her to be disinterested, then you'll always look for signs of disinterest or even make them up in your head (preferbly reinforced by a picture of her blinking... I mean, obviously so bored she fell asleep).

And as you say, if someone for some reason, cares for a person (let's say F), they'll forgive him anything, usually attributing things to "folksyness".

And sure, they all have faults. But objectivity and consistency demands that social dogma applies to Peter as well as to Paul.
To charicature - J should recieve the same critizism for drunk driving, as F would (and vice versa). It's not a valid argument in a debate to "like" someone more than anyone else - hence my appeal for consistency.

Keep your chin up.

Muhler 05-19-2011 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwinther (Post 1255201)
"Lighten up, Francis" - Sgt. Hulka

Personally, I try and be objective (a contradiction by definition, I know) and consistent, meaning that if I critisize X for embarrasing themselves by doing something, then Y, doing exactly the same would also be subject to my critizism.

Now, some people revel in seeing J as arrogant. It reinforces their own perception of the man - confirming ones prejudices is everyones favourite. This means it's hard for J to do anything right. Same goes for Marie. If you percive her to be disinterested, then you'll always look for signs of disinterest or even make them up in your head (preferbly reinforced by a picture of her blinking... I mean, obviously so bored she fell asleep).

And as you say, if someone for some reason, cares for a person (let's say F), they'll forgive him anything, usually attributing things to "folksyness".

And sure, they all have faults. But objectivity and consistency demands that social dogma applies to Peter as well as to Paul.
To charicature - J should recieve the same critizism for drunk driving, as F would (and vice versa). It's not a valid argument in a debate to "like" someone more than anyone else - hence my appeal for consistency.

Keep your chin up.

I see we are very much in agreement.

I've allowed myself to highlight a part of your reply.
However when it comes to royalty and indeed persons in general it's very difficult to be completely unbiased, as the subject in it's very nature is very much about what you believe in and how you feel about a certain person.
I think it's very much a valid point to state where you stand in regards to a particular person.

I have very often found myself in the situation where I have to explain why I critizise or point out a flaw in a person I respect or like.
That's why I sometimes have to go to extraordinary lengths to explain what I feel about certain persons.
It is actually possible to point out faults in persons you respect, yes, indeed it is. ;)

That means that you should be able to point to mistakes someone makes. Be that Joachim, Marie, Frederik and also Mary (and I got some serious heat for that! :hiding:) and I will.
As long as we keep in mind that royals are humans as well.
They do have faults in their characters, they do have bad days and they do make mistakes.

auntie 05-20-2011 04:05 AM

A picture is a split second in time and so many perceptions we have of people are a result of what we see in that picture. Someone may seem loving, haughty or anything else depending on if he is photogenic or not...

Sternchen 05-20-2011 04:51 AM

Unfortunately there is more than one photo during a splitsecond of Marie being bored on official capacity and in Paris.
Prinsesse Marie røvkeder sig | www.bt.dk

Muhler 05-20-2011 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1255607)
Unfortunately there is more than one photo during a splitsecond of Marie being bored on official capacity and in Paris.
Prinsesse Marie røvkeder sig | www.bt.dk

In all fairness, the suits sitting next to our Marie don't look like they are about start tap-dancing on the table either. ;)

Sternchen 05-20-2011 05:13 AM

But at least they are looking at the person talking :tongue:

Muhler 05-20-2011 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1255611)
But at least they are looking at the person talking :tongue:

In the vain hope he or she'll stop talking? Soon? Please? - Whereas Marie is clearly absorbing every word, tasting the eloquence of the speaker, savouring the sentences. ;)

When you come up with a reply, you can write it on a Christmas card...:tongue:

Kataryn 05-20-2011 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1255609)
In all fairness, the suits sitting next to our Marie don't look like they are about start tap-dancing on the table either. ;)

Spot on, Muhler! One really could guess that the people there had an impotant and not very funny topic to discuss. Probably marie makes a very appropriate face for that situation as on the other pics where she meets and greets people she is her own friendly and kind self.

Sternchen 05-20-2011 06:14 AM

:santa:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1255612)
In the vain hope he or she'll stop talking? Soon? Please? - Whereas Marie is clearly absorbing every word, tasting the elequence of the speaker, savouring the sentences. ;)

When you come up with a reply, you can write it on a Christmas card...:tongue:

Absorbing every word? More like drifting off into lala-land :rofl: Sorry, no Christmas card, as it is hard to find right now :santa:

Muhler 05-20-2011 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1255631)
:santa:

Absorbing every word? More like drifting off into lala-land :rofl: Sorry, no Christmas card, as it is hard to find right now :santa:

Yeees, you should know, lieber Sternchen. - Sorry, that was simply too tempting. :tongue::lol:

But as Kataryn :wave: pointed out, when among wolves, you howl like a wolf.
And that was, naturally, what la charmant Marie was doing.

Sternchen 05-20-2011 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1255638)
Yeees, you should know, lieber Sternchen. - Sorry, that was simply too tempting. :tongue::lol:

But as Kataryn :wave: pointed out, when among wolves, you howl like a wolf.
And that was, naturally, what la charmant Marie was doing.

Yeah right :whistling: Btw. it is "liebes Sternchen" :lol:

JessRulz 05-20-2011 07:48 AM

Can we please move on? We can go round and round for days discussing whether Marie was bored, happy, listening intently, etc. and it serves no purpose.

Any further posts on the matter will be removed at moderator discretion.

camelot23ca 05-20-2011 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricarda (Post 1254733)
[edit-JessRulz]

I am actually not very interested in Joachim and don't have the time to discuss him.
The only interesting question for me is: why do some (few) think he would make a superior king than Frederik?
I said Joachim didn't make a good impression on me. I never said he isn' t doing his homework. Probably he would be competent as a king.
But superior to Frederik? :cool:

I think it's valid if people just like Joachim more than they do Frederik but in terms of thinking he'd be a better king? That, to me, is a very difficult call to make. As a follower of theDRF I think I have a fairly good idea of what Frederik will be like as king because he and his family are already dealing with a fairly similar situation as what they'll be confronted with when Queen Margrethe is gone. Not so much in terms of the events that they do, although their day to day responsibilities have been steadily increasing over the last several years, but more in terms of things like the amount of attention that's focused on them, the significance that's given to everything they say and do and the expectations that the public has of them.
To me, the wild card of how someone would be as monarch or crown prince is how they'd deal with the big psychological component that goes with it. How would Joachim deal if the press decided to criticize his racing as being too frivolous and too dangerous a pursuit for the future king? How would he deal with the increased focus on and criticism of his wife, (I'm guessing the inattention and bored looks at official events would seem a tad less charming if they were coming from the future queen)? I really don't know.

Muhler 05-21-2011 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelot23ca (Post 1255723)
To me, the wild card of how someone would be as monarch or crown prince is how they'd deal with the big psychological component that goes with it. How would Joachim deal if the press decided to criticize his racing as being too frivolous and too dangerous a pursuit for the future king? How would he deal with the increased focus on and criticism of his wife, (I'm guessing the inattention and bored looks at official events would seem a tad less charming if they were coming from the future queen)? I really don't know.

If the tables were turned? That's a huge what if!

It has occured many times before in history that a younger son, suddenly woke up one day realizing he's going to be king and exclaimed: "What happened"?!?
And with absolutely no wish or desire to become king.
It happened in Britain in the 30's and to some extent here in DK with the then Princess Margrethe.
Amazingly most of them adapt and grow into the role and actually do surprisingly well.
What else can you do when you are in a situation you are forced into?

It's ironic. Frederik is in many ways "the second son" who has accepted, adapted and slowly grown into his role as future king, rather than Joachim.
Our Marie is probably the one, who will be in for the rudest awakening, because as you pointed out, the demands and focus is suddenly on a very different level.
But who knows? Perhaps she too can grow into her new role?

I once read a definition of the best possible head of state: Someone who needs to be carried kicking and screaming into the office, but once there will do his very best. - I don't quite agree, but it nevertheless contains some truth.

Sternchen 05-21-2011 06:00 AM

Muhler, didn't you once say, that Marie is the right one for the spare, but wouldn't be the right one for the heir? (IIRC you didn't mean that she wasn't the right one for Fred, but more in the sense that she wouldn't be what you would expect of a CPss?)

Muhler 05-21-2011 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1255983)
Muhler, didn't you once say, that Marie is the right one for the spare, but wouldn't be the right one for the heir? (IIRC you didn't mean that she wasn't the right one for Fred, but more in the sense that she wouldn't be what you would expect of a CPss?)

That's right.
Marie is a great secondary royal, in the sense that she has more space to move in. There are not the same expectations, not the same focus on her and she may find it easier to get away with mistakes and so on.
In other words she can allow herself the luxury to be a more relaxed princess who can have fun on the job.
A CP has more obligations and duties to fullfill.
Mary and Marie fill different roles. Much more different that Joachim and Frederik. Partly because both of them are born and bred as royals, but also because Joachim could actually end up becoming king. (It would be another matter if he was the third child of QMII).

Mary and Marie are in different leagues.
I will not rule out that Marie would make a good queen, in her own way. She may very well, but she'll also have to work hard to get there and it won't be easy. Queen Marie would not be the Marie we see now, not at all.
With Mary I'm confident she'll make a good queen.

Do you see the difference?

Duke of Marmalade 05-21-2011 07:01 AM

I dont think Marie would have married Joachim if he was meant to become King in the first place. She is not the type of woman who would want to cope with all the hassle as she is rather the Lady of the Manor type, easy life, having to get through the odd engagement is ok but nothing more.

Alexandra would have been brilliant as CP.

Frederik did a brilliant choice too with Mary, who is willing to take on all the hassle because like most female commoners who marry into royalty for the top job, she has a strong need for attention and recognition. If there is a good future for the Danish monarchy under King Fred, Mary will have a good share in it.

On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years. I am saying this because many posters seem to think that Marie is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I agree but it doesnt matter for the job. By the way, I think Marys intellectual background and alledged "career" is quite overrated too but thats another topic.

I believe all you need in the couple combination is a strong character to remain who you are, a way with people and a good common sense and you are on a winning streak, as we can see with Maxima & WA in the Netherlands. Mary & Fred cant quite catch up but in comparison with Joachim & Marie I see them miles ahead and although I am not Danish I believe thats a sentiment that is being shared with most of the Danes as well.

Muhler 05-21-2011 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1255993)
I
On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years.

:smile:You are almost quoting a former Danish PM, Jens Otto Kragh, who once said about Princess Margrethe: "I hear she's an intellectual. A pity". He considered it a waste of talent.

I don't agree at all.
QMII has her flaws of course, but she has also made some very sound and even wise decisions. They cannot be attributed to advisers alone, they are after all changed from time to time.
Her intellect has certainly been an advantage in many ways, even in something as seemingly trivial as small-talk. Everybody can learn small-talk, but there is small-talk and there is intelligent small-talk. - And it does leave an impression.

I believe we are very fortunate in having an intelligent Queen right now, with the added focus on royals in our day and age.
I also believe that a monarch ought to have as good and as broad an education as is possible.

If we only have a state of head who is occasionally wheeled around in a carriage ad who waves from a distant balcony, when he isn't delivering a rehearsed speech, then we can settle with a less intelligent and less educated monarch. But that's not how it is nowadays and it's certainly not the way to go, if monarchy is to have a future. Not in my world.

Iluvbertie 05-21-2011 07:51 AM

When you say that the monarch should have as broad an education as possible what would you do if the heir is lacking in the ability to learn?

Many young people simply can't learn and struggle to even manage to read a simple passage, let alone comprehend it.

What happens though when that person is the heir?

Sternchen 05-21-2011 07:55 AM

I don't know it Marie would have married Joachim if he would be the heir.
I don't agree that Marie doesn't have a strong need for attention and recognition. IMO she has it, same as Alex, and this is why the role as second wife of the spare is good for her, she gets the attention and recognition, but doesn't have to do a lot/work hard for it. After all she has been and still is giving regular interviews to the danish media. Even when being approached on the street she stops and gives interviews. She wouldn't do that if she didn't like it ;)

I think also Marie's choice of job is quiet significant, although owning a Bachelor, she worked as an assistant to her stepfather. Which doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. More that she is willing to let others take care of her, while she (in theorie) would be able to take care of herself. Oh well, but why bother, when it is much easier to let others take care of all the unpleasantnesses...

Paraphrasing Muhler, Marie is in it for the fun, but I doubt that she is giving the future of the monarchy, and how it can be adapted and transitioned a lot of thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1256005)
When you say that the monarch should have as broad an education as possible what would you do if the heir is lacking in the ability to learn?

Many young people simply can't learn and struggle to even manage to read a simple passage, let alone comprehend it.

What happens though when that person is the heir?

Do you mean a short attention span, or an illness like dislexia which Victoria of Sweden has?

Muhler 05-21-2011 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1256005)
When you say that the monarch should have as broad an education as possible what would you do if the heir is lacking in the ability to learn?

Many young people simply can't learn and struggle to even manage to read a simple passage, let alone comprehend it.

What happens though when that person is the heir?

That's one of the major problems with a monarchy.

The best thing to do I think, is to be open about it and aknowledge that say a younger sister is better at dealing with a number of jobs than the monarch himself.
It is after all a royal family, or a royal team if you will.

One who is obviously ill suited to become a monarch, may be quietly bypassed. That happened here in DK in the 50's, when Margrethe was selected as the successor instead and there wasn't a public uproar over that.

camelot23ca 05-21-2011 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1255993)
On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years. I am saying this because many posters seem to think that Marie is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I agree but it doesnt matter for the job. By the way, I think Marys intellectual background and alledged "career" is quite overrated too but thats another topic.

I believe all you need in the couple combination is a strong character to remain who you are, a way with people and a good common sense and you are on a winning streak, as we can see with Maxima & WA in the Netherlands. Mary & Fred cant quite catch up but in comparison with Joachim & Marie I see them miles ahead and although I am not Danish I believe thats a sentiment that is being shared with most of the Danes as well.

I think that many jobs, even those that look stimulating and exciting to outsiders, become dull and boring to those doing them after awhile. I don't think someone needs to have high intelligence to be a successful royal but I don't see it ever being a drawback, either. An intelligent royal could do a lot for their country over time and they'd also have more opportunities than most to feed their own intellectual curiosity. For instance Queen Margrethe, I believe, is interested in archaeology. Obviously she couldn't run off and be an archaeologist but over the years I imagine she's had many opportunities to pursue this interest that most people wouldn't.

Viv 05-21-2011 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1255993)
Alexandra would have been brilliant as CP. .

See below! Maybe she was a tad too sharp for her own good?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1255993)
On an intellectual level I think its better not to be too clever because
in the long run the job can become very dull and boring, some of the
CPs are already visibly bored after only a few years.

Not sure whether I agree! IMO as a royal the trick is to make
whatever you're being introduced to interesting! Again IMO it takes
some intellectual prowess! However if it's your ambition to write a
thesis on nuclear physics then you're probably not in the best position
as a member of a royal family :biggrin:!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1255993)
I am saying this because many posters seem to think that Marie is
not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I agree but it doesnt matter
for the job. By the way, I think Marys intellectual background
and alledged "career" is quite overrated too but thats another
topic.

The immediate and superficial impression you get of Marie is that
her IQ does not match that of Alexandra (with the analytical brain
of a former employee in the financial field). However that does
not mean that Marie is among the blunt knives of the drawer,
it just means that it's a different kind of intelligence. I doubt
that Prince Joachim would have married an intellectually challenged
woman for the simple reason that it would be difficult for such a
person to maneouvre in a royal environment!

Viv

Sternchen 05-21-2011 04:49 PM

Unlike Alex, Marie received a Bachelor :D

Duke of Marmalade 05-22-2011 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelot23ca (Post 1256068)
I think that many jobs, even those that look stimulating and exciting to outsiders, become dull and boring to those doing them after awhile. I don't think someone needs to have high intelligence to be a successful royal but I don't see it ever being a drawback, either.

True but unlike royals, average people can do something else if they get bored, change jobs, change locations. Royals are trapped with what they are doing for life. And unlike in other jobs, where people are in charge of the subject, very often royals only pop by for the "job" = opening something or do a speech on a specific subject that most times somebody else has written for them, they dont have any responsibilty other than drawing attention to the course by being present. For an intelligent person, a "doer", this must be really frustrating.

In terms of intelligence I think its far more important for a royal to have emotional intelligence rather than academical intelligence. You can have five different bachelors and be academically overprepared but where is the point if you wont really get connected to people.

Iluvbertie 05-22-2011 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternchen (Post 1256006)
I don't know it Marie would have married Joachim if he would be the heir.
I don't agree that Marie doesn't have a strong need for attention and recognition. IMO she has it, same as Alex, and this is why the role as second wife of the spare is good for her, she gets the attention and recognition, but doesn't have to do a lot/work hard for it. After all she has been and still is giving regular interviews to the danish media. Even when being approached on the street she stops and gives interviews. She wouldn't do that if she didn't like it ;)

I think also Marie's choice of job is quiet significant, although owning a Bachelor, she worked as an assistant to her stepfather. Which doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. More that she is willing to let others take care of her, while she (in theorie) would be able to take care of herself. Oh well, but why bother, when it is much easier to let others take care of all the unpleasantnesses...

Paraphrasing Muhler, Marie is in it for the fun, but I doubt that she is giving the future of the monarchy, and how it can be adapted and transitioned a lot of thought.



Do you mean a short attention span, or an illness like dislexia which Victoria of Sweden has?

Something along the lines of an IQ of say 50 with a reading age of 5 at the chronological age of an adult - not a learning difficulty like Victoria or Beatrice of York (both of whom are dyslexic - a completely treatable condition) but one where they are in old fashioned terminology 'dumb'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1256014)
That's one of the major problems with a monarchy.

The best thing to do I think, is to be open about it and aknowledge that say a younger sister is better at dealing with a number of jobs than the monarch himself.
It is after all a royal family, or a royal team if you will.

One who is obviously ill suited to become a monarch, may be quietly bypassed. That happened here in DK in the 50's, when Margrethe was selected as the successor instead and there wasn't a public uproar over that.


No - they had a referedum to allow the king's daughters to inherit rather than ignore half the population but what about now - gender blind succession etc means that you can't lie to the public and say 'oh it is so unfair that my daughters can't inherit the throne because they are girls' and convince the people to change the constitution.

It would take an Act of Parliament and the people would want to know the reason - but what if that person was to have children - where would they fit etc?

nwinther 05-22-2011 06:06 AM

IMO, the good monarch must be able to run the country like the absolutist kings of old. This means insight into economics, politics, anthropology, Military affairs, arts, science etc. etc. This does not mean that they have to be expercts in any of those subjects, but they must be able to see through the basics. The ability to hire good (expert) advisors will cover the detail. So a good general education must be the way to go.

Empathy and social skills are a given, but also hard to learn. Either you've got it or you don't. If you haven't got it, you need to be able to compensate. This can be done in several ways. Focusing on thing you know and letting others (siblings, heirs etc.) do the general stuff (delegating) would take you far.

Muhler 05-22-2011 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1256211)
No - they had a referedum to allow the king's daughters to inherit rather than ignore half the population but what about now - gender blind succession etc means that you can't lie to the public and say 'oh it is so unfair that my daughters can't inherit the throne because they are girls' and convince the people to change the constitution.

It would take an Act of Parliament and the people would want to know the reason - but what if that person was to have children - where would they fit etc?

That's what I meant by quietly bypassing the heir.
People in the 50's knew perfectly well why the Law of Succession was changed, That was debated openly.
The official reason was that it was "unfair" that a daughter of an heir could not become a monarch. That fooled no one...

Iluvbertie 05-22-2011 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1256236)
That's what I meant by quietly bypassing the heir.
People in the 50's knew perfectly well why the Law of Succession was changed, That was debated openly.
The official reason was that it was "unfair" that a daughter of an heir could not become a monarch. That fooled no one...


So you would advocate a referendum to bypass say Christian if he turned out to have low learning ability i.e. if he never learnt to read properly.

This though is a problem now more so than with the situation in the 50s - as the referendum was able to justify giving the throne to the children of the monarch but what if the heir apparent - the eldest child - simply isn't capable of learning - how do you solve that situation - without necessarily getting rid of the monarchy - which would be a good thing anyway as this situation wouldn't arise then.

You won't be able to have another smokescreen referendum as was possible on the 50s - so what could be done?

The situation has to be settled - answer - abolish the monarch and have elected leaders who have to have certain qualifications other than who happened to provide the genetic makeup and birth order.

What about the rights of inheritance of any children this bypassed heir would have - surely as the eldest child of the eldest child that child has the right of inheritance - so say Christian is unable to learn but marries young and has a son - what would you do then? We aren't talking about a person who is unaware of the situation but one with a very low IQ who is aware of things but simply can't learn. It would be a lawyers dream fighting for the rights of the heir apparent who hasn't the brainpower to hold a conversation - but by birth has the right to be monarch.

AnaC 05-22-2011 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1254875)
Thank you Mrs. LyndaW :smile:


As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

I didn't know Mary could be regent. What are the requirements for being regent?

JessRulz 05-22-2011 11:50 AM

:previous:

Usually, you have to actually be line for the throne. Therefore, Crown Princess Mary is currently not able to be Regent/Rigsforstander, unless a specific document is created to give her that ability (like what happened with Queen Ingrid when Queen Margrethe took the throne). However, the case with Queen Ingrid was different as there were only one or two adults who could be Regent/Rigsforstander, and one of them (Princess Benedikte) was living in Germany.

Currently the following people can be Regent/Rigsforstander:
Crown Prince Frederik, Prince Joachim, Princess Benedikte, Princess Elisabeth.

While Crown Princess Mary may become able to be Rigsforstander in the future (probably after her husband takes the throne), I don't believe it will happen within the next few years. Maybe Princess Elisabeth will be Rigsforstander during the Berleburg wedding?

Muhler 05-22-2011 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1256246)
So you would advocate a referendum to bypass say Christian if he turned out to have low learning ability i.e. if he never learnt to read properly.

This though is a problem now more so than with the situation in the 50s - as the referendum was able to justify giving the throne to the children of the monarch but what if the heir apparent - the eldest child - simply isn't capable of learning - how do you solve that situation - without necessarily getting rid of the monarchy - which would be a good thing anyway as this situation wouldn't arise then.

You won't be able to have another smokescreen referendum as was possible on the 50s - so what could be done?

The situation has to be settled - answer - abolish the monarch and have elected leaders who have to have certain qualifications other than who happened to provide the genetic makeup and birth order.

What about the rights of inheritance of any children this bypassed heir would have - surely as the eldest child of the eldest child that child has the right of inheritance - so say Christian is unable to learn but marries young and has a son - what would you do then? We aren't talking about a person who is unaware of the situation but one with a very low IQ who is aware of things but simply can't learn. It would be a lawyers dream fighting for the rights of the heir apparent who hasn't the brainpower to hold a conversation - but by birth has the right to be monarch.

If Christian should be mentally retarded (substitute with current politically correct expression) then he cannot fulfill his role as monarch. It's as simple as that.
He needs to be able to comprehend,what he is doing and what his role is.
In such a case he would simply be bypassed by Isabella.
In theory a lot of things could happen to Christian which would lead him to be bypassed.
He could be comatose after an accident.
He could become severely paralyzed after an accident.
He could commit a serious crime.
He could convert to Hinduism.
- And so on.
All of these examples could and would most likely lead to him to either being bypassed or being "advised" to abdicate alternatively renounce his claim on the throne.

No referendum will be needed.

As for the children of a bypassed heir. That's an interesting question. I guess it would depend on whether the oldest child of the deposed heir is aknowledged as the next in the line, as Christian is. If the bypassed heir does not have any children at the time he is bypassed, tough luck for his future children... They are out.
It would be another matter if Frederik were to die tomorrow. Then Joachim would step in as Regent for Christian until he turns 18, because Christian is aknowledged as the next heir. As such Nikolai would not become king.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnaC (Post 1256267)
I didn't know Mary could be regent. What are the requirements for being regent?

In theory everyone who fulfills the following requirements can be appointed Rigsforstander. (Only the Crown Prince can be Regent, everybody else act as a Rigsforstander. For simplicity that is also translated to Regent, as the function is basically the same).

- A Danish citizen.
- Adhering to the Lutheran faith. (ADDED: I'll check and verify this as I'm not 100 % certain. - Confirmed).
- Of legal age. I.e. 18.
- Having signed a pledge to obey the Danish Constitution.
- Worthy. I.e. of a good moral standing, respected. No criminal record or "unfortunate" behaviour.
- Competent. I.e. able to fullfill the position. And of course of sound mind. You cannot be insane.

The four first requirements are a must! The next two are understood to be included among the terms.

I cannot become a Rigsforstander, because I'm not a member of the State Church, and as such don't adhere to the Lutheran faith.
My wife could. She's still adhering to the Lutheran faith, at least officially. As for the last three requirements. Well, I may think she fullfills those criterias as well. ;):tongue:

That is of course putting things on the edge.
However, there is nothing to hinder Mary, Prince Henrik or our Marie from acting as a Rigsforstander.
Usually QMII appoints someone who is in direct line for the throne but Queen Ingrid has acted as a Rigsforstander and when his time comes, Frederik may be more liberal in that respect, who knows?

Should QMII die within the next couple of years, there will suddenly be an acute shortage of adults in the line for the throne. At least until Nikolai and Felix turn 18.

ADDED:
Here are the paragraphs regarding a Rigsforstander. The wording is archaic and I'll write a summary tomorrow, TV is calling...
§ 9. Saafremt Kongen, enten formedelst Bortreise eller Svaghed, finder, at der bør udnævnes en Rigsforstander, sammenkalder han Rigsdagen og forelægger den et Lovforslag herom.
§ 10. Bliver Kongen ude af Stand til at regjere, sammenkalder Statsraadet Rigsdagen. Naar da den forenede Rigsdag med tre Fjerdedele af de afgivne Stemmer erkjender Nødvendigheden, udnævner den en Rigsforstander og anordner, om fornødent gjøres, et Formynderskab.
§ 11. Er der Anledning til at frygte for, at Thronfølgeren ved Kongens Død vil være umyndig eller af anden Grund ude af Stand til selv at regjere, bestemmes ved Lov en Rigsforstander, og et Formynderskab anordnes af Kongen. Rigsforstanderen kan ikke deeltage i Formynderskabet.
§ 12. Rigsforstanderen aflægger den for Kongen foreskrevne Eed og udøver, saalænge Rigsforstanderskabet varer, i Kongens Navn alle dennes Rettigheder; dog kan han ikke foreslaae Forandring af Arvefølgen.
§ 13. Naar Kongen er død, sammentræder 14de Dagen derefter uden Sammenkaldelse den sidstvalgte Rigsdag.
§ 14. Er der ingen Thronfølger, eller kan Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen ikke strax tiltræde Regjeringen, føres den af Statsraadet, indtil fornøden Bestemmelse er tagen af Rigsdagen.
§ 15. Er Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen fraværende, bestemmer den forenede Rigsdag, inden hvilken Tid han har at vende tilbage. Er Thronfølgeren umyndig, eller af anden Grund ikke i Stand til at regjere, uden at Rigsforstander og Formynderskab er bestemt, udnævner den forenede Rigsdag Rigsforstanderen og beskikker Formynderskabet. Er der ingen Thronfølger, vælger den forenede Rigsdag en Konge og fastsætter den fremtidige Arvefølge.

FasterB 05-22-2011 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1256358)
If Christian should be mentally retarded (substitute with current politically correct expression) then he cannot fulfill his role as monarch. It's as simple as that.
He needs to be able to comprehend,what he is doing and what his role is.
In such a case he would simply be bypassed by Isabella.

Are you sure about that, Muhler? :ermm: Denmark have had a king who wasn´t substituted by the next in line. IIRC then it was Frederik VII.
I think that if Prince Christian was in a state where he couldn´t take on the role of a monarch, then he would have to renounce his claim to the throne.

Muhler 05-23-2011 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FasterB (Post 1256391)
Are you sure about that, Muhler? :ermm: Denmark have had a king who wasn´t substituted by the next in line. IIRC then it was Frederik VII.
I think that if Prince Christian was in a state where he couldn´t take on the role of a monarch, then he would have to renounce his claim to the throne.

That was in the age of absolutism.
His son became Regent after disposing of Struense, in what was a de facto coup d'etat.

The Constitution actually cover a situation where the heir is not mentally fit to rule. - More on that later, I'm pretty busy right now.

Iluvbertie 05-23-2011 03:55 AM

I am talking about a slow learner who is fully aware of their rights but can't fully excercise them - they can't sign an abdication because they can't understand it - so what happens.

Obviously they have rights and the next in line could be a Regent but they couldn't surely become the monarch - that would be an usurpation and illegal.

This discussion came about because people believe that the monarch should be well-educated but let's cross to Britain - would Harry qualify as 'well-educated' considering he never went to uni and didn't get the grades to go to uni.

Muhler 05-23-2011 06:25 AM

Here is what the first (democratic) Constitution of 1849 has to say in regards to Regent/Rigsforstander.
It has to be said that back then monarchs didn't travel as much as now and with modern forms of communication and transport it's now very easy to get in touch with the monarch, when he is away from his realm. The Danish monarch had much more political power back then as well.
Rather than translating the text to "modern", I'll interprete and explain it instead.

§ 9. If the king, due to illness or because he is away, find that a Rigsforstander should be appointed. He will convene the Parliament and propose a bill. - That is no longer necessary. QMII just sign a document statiing that X will be Rigsforstander until she returns and then informs the government.

§10. If the king is unable to rule, the State Council (the government) will convene the Parliament. When the total Parliament, with 75 % of the votes that is casted, find it necessary it will appoint a Rigsforstander and if necessary a Guardian. - The Rigsforstander rules the country on behalf of the king, the Guardian look after the king's interests.

§11. Is there reason to fear that the Heir upon the death of the king will not be of legal age or for another reason unable to rule himself, a law will be passed which appoint a Rigsforstander and a guardianship is appointed by the king. - If the heir is under the age of 18, comatose, in rehab because he's a drugaddict, in captivity and so on.

§12. The Rigsforstander take the appropriate pledge/oath before the king and excerzise as long as he is Rigsforstander all rights by the monarch in the name of the king. He cannot propose changes in the order of succession however. - Nowadays they sign a pledge to obey the Constitution.

§13. When the king is dead, the Parliament will convene on the fourteenth day. - This is achaic legislation and presumably the Parliament approve that the succession is correct and that no coup d'etat has taken place.

§14. If there is no heir or the heir cannot lead the government at once, the State Council will head the government until the Parliament has decided what to do.
- The monarch is no longer head of the government. QMII is head of the State Council. The government is the udøvende magt = the executive power and act formally in the name of Queen Margrethe. The PM will run the store until the Parliament has decided what to do. Interestingly the first or one of the first things a newly appointed Rigsforstander has to do, is to approve himself.

§15. Is the heir or Rigsforstander absent, the convened Parliament will state a timeperiod in which he must return.
If the heir is not of legal age or for another reason unable to rule. And no Rigsforstander and Guardianship has been appointed, the convened Parliament appoints a Rigsforstander and authorise a Guardianship.
If there is no heir, the convened Parliament will elect a king and determine the future Order of Succession.
- Lets break this up in three parts:
A) Is used if Frederik is sitting in Australia with his arms crossed and sulking, because "I will not return home to be king"! Or if he is abducted by aliens or lost at sea.
B) Is used if Frederik and QMII dies before Christian has turned 18, or if he is mentally or physically unfit to become king.
C) If there is no (immediate) successor at all. - There is no "King Ralph" scenario here.

§ 9. Saafremt Kongen, enten formedelst Bortreise eller Svaghed, finder, at der bør udnævnes en Rigsforstander, sammenkalder han Rigsdagen og forelægger den et Lovforslag herom.
§ 10. Bliver Kongen ude af Stand til at regjere, sammenkalder Statsraadet Rigsdagen. Naar da den forenede Rigsdag med tre Fjerdedele af de afgivne Stemmer erkjender Nødvendigheden, udnævner den en Rigsforstander og anordner, om fornødent gjøres, et Formynderskab.
§ 11. Er der Anledning til at frygte for, at Thronfølgeren ved Kongens Død vil være umyndig eller af anden Grund ude af Stand til selv at regjere, bestemmes ved Lov en Rigsforstander, og et Formynderskab anordnes af Kongen. Rigsforstanderen kan ikke deeltage i Formynderskabet.
§ 12. Rigsforstanderen aflægger den for Kongen foreskrevne Eed og udøver, saalænge Rigsforstanderskabet varer, i Kongens Navn alle dennes Rettigheder; dog kan han ikke foreslaae Forandring af Arvefølgen.
§ 13. Naar Kongen er død, sammentræder 14de Dagen derefter uden Sammenkaldelse den sidstvalgte Rigsdag.
§ 14. Er der ingen Thronfølger, eller kan Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen ikke strax tiltræde Regjeringen, føres den af Statsraadet, indtil fornøden Bestemmelse er tagen af Rigsdagen.
§ 15. Er Thronfølgeren eller Rigsforstanderen fraværende, bestemmer den forenede Rigsdag, inden hvilken Tid han har at vende tilbage. Er Thronfølgeren umyndig, eller af anden Grund ikke i Stand til at regjere, uden at Rigsforstander og Formynderskab er bestemt, udnævner den forenede Rigsdag Rigsforstanderen og beskikker Formynderskabet. Er der ingen Thronfølger, vælger den forenede Rigsdag en Konge og fastsætter den fremtidige Arvefølge.

FasterB 05-23-2011 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1256554)
That was in the age of absolutism.
His son became Regent after disposing of Struense, in what was a de facto coup d'etat.

The Constitution actually cover a situation where the heir is not mentally fit to rule. - More on that later, I'm pretty busy right now.

Ahh, I knew there was something about that - thanks for the clarification :flowers:

Sternchen 05-23-2011 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1256557)
I am talking about a slow learner who is fully aware of their rights but can't fully excercise them - they can't sign an abdication because they can't understand it - so what happens.

Obviously they have rights and the next in line could be a Regent but they couldn't surely become the monarch - that would be an usurpation and illegal.

This discussion came about because people believe that the monarch should be well-educated but let's cross to Britain - would Harry qualify as 'well-educated' considering he never went to uni and didn't get the grades to go to uni.

I don't think that Harry would fall into the category, because he would be able to sign an abdication and understand it :whistling:

But as it has happened in Denmark before, that the next in line was bypassed, which led to Margrethe being Queen today, I think it could be done again :smile:

jemagre 05-23-2011 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwinther (Post 1256235)
IMO, the good monarch must be able to run the country like the absolutist kings of old. This means insight into economics, politics, anthropology, Military affairs, arts, science etc. etc. This does not mean that they have to be expercts in any of those subjects, but they must be able to see through the basics. The ability to hire good (expert) advisors will cover the detail. So a good general education must be the way to go.

Empathy and social skills are a given, but also hard to learn. Either you've got it or you don't. If you haven't got it, you need to be able to compensate. This can be done in several ways. Focusing on thing you know and letting others (siblings, heirs etc.) do the general stuff (delegating) would take you far.

I agree with you. While I think education is important I do believe that you don't have to go to university to be a good monarch. After all Queen Elizabeth II never had any "formal" schooling and yet quite a few people think she is a great monarch.

I also think that you make a great point about people skills. Although one can improve their ability to master some things, like small talk, some individuals are just not "people friendly". No university education is going to get rid of that.

One of the things about having a big royal family is having people who you can call-up to take over the jobs that need to be done but that do not quite work for you. It is better to have a monarch who knows they are not perfect than one who thinks they are great at everything.

maria-olivia 05-24-2011 08:08 AM

At the Danish royal Court a Fredrik succeeds a Christian and so on..
Prince Knud's first son is Ingolf, he should never be a heir because Crown Prince Frederik just got married. But his second son is called Christian because the Crown Prince had daughters...
If something dramatic should happen with the young Prince Christian, Denmark will have a King Vincent !

Esmerelda 05-24-2011 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia
At the Danish royal Court a Fredrik succeeds a Christian and so on..
Prince Knud's first son is Ingolf, he should never be a heir because Crown Prince Frederik just got married. But his second son is called Christian because the Crown Prince had daughters...
If something dramatic should happen with the young Prince Christian, Denmark will have a King Vincent !

I thought Isabella comes before Vincent due to recent changes in the law.

Edit: just checked this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_..._Danish_throne

JessRulz 05-24-2011 08:16 AM

:previous:

Yes, in the unlikely instance that something were to happen to Christian before/after he became King and died without any heirs of his own, Isabella would become the next in line/Queen.

As for a King Vincent - chances are he would reign as a King Frederik (XI), as one of his middle names is Frederik and it continues with the Christian-Frederik alternation. Much like George VI reigned as George instead of his given name Albert.

And with Count Ingolf (formerly Prince Ingolf), had he become King, chances are he would have reigned as either Christian or Frederik as well, depending on who he succeeded (he has both Christian and Frederik as middle names - Ingolf Christian Frederik Knud Harald Gorm Gustav Viggo Valdemar Aage).

Grandduchess24 07-02-2011 12:23 PM

Crown prince Frederik and crown princess Mary will be king and queen of Denmark and eventually their children will rule and their son will be known as crown prince Christian of Denmark . I am sure that Frederik will make a great King of denmark.

Muhler 08-29-2011 03:23 PM

I would like to ask you members a question.

As you may know one of my pet-opinions is that M&F have taken over from the Regent Couple in most things but name.
Examples: A summer cruise, that apart from Guards Hussars, is identical to a cruise by the Regent Couple.
Normally QMII would rush home when a general election is called, including cancelling something as important as a state visit. This time she just left it to Frederik.
QMII is the commander-in-chief, yet when the navy turned 500 a year ago, she made one appearance and left the rest to M&F, including the highly symbolic naval review.
The regular visits to the Faroese Islands and Greenland are also indentical to the Regent Couple's.
Prince Henrik has basically retired.
Frederik is handling more and more public audiences.
In the documentary, The Kingdom behind the scenes, QMII admitted she is listening more and more to Frederik and allow him to put a significant thumbprint on the events.

Now, my question to you is: Are you in agreement with me? Also in comparison to how other RF's are handling it?
Or am I over-interpreting things?

I will take a backseat in this one and mainly listen with interest to your opinions.

Lumutqueen 08-29-2011 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1309885)

Now, my question to you is: Are you in agreement with me? Also in comparison to how other RF's are handling it?
Or am I over-interpreting things?.

Speculation here but it seems like Frederik is being given more responsibility to prepare him for the 'top job'. Or maybe M & H just want a rest? :rofl:

American Dane 08-29-2011 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1309885)
I would like to ask you members a question.

As you may know one of my pet-opinions is that M&F have taken over from the Regent Couple in most things but name.
Examples: A summer cruise, that apart from Guards Hussars, is identical to a cruise by the Regent Couple.
Normally QMII would rush home when a general election is called, including cancelling something as important as a state visit. This time she just left it to Frederik.
QMII is the commander-in-chief, yet when the navy turned 500 a year ago, she made one appearance and left the rest to M&F, including the highly symbolic naval review.
The regular visits to the Faroese Islands and Greenland are also indentical to the Regent Couple's.
Prince Henrik has basically retired.
Frederik is handling more and more public audiences.
In the documentary, The Kingdom behind the scenes, QMII admitted she is listening more and more to Frederik and allow him to put a significant thumbprint on the events.

Now, my question to you is: Are you in agreement with me? Also in comparison to how other RF's are handling it?
Or am I over-interpreting things?

I will take a backseat in this one and mainly listen with interest to your opinions.


I agree with you.

It's perhaps similar to the recent trip of Prince William to New Zealand and Australia (in January 2010, not the one in 2011 which was prompted by William wanting to come over personally) and William and Catherine in Canada earlier this year. While still second in line, Queen Elizabeth is handing over more duties to her heir-of-the-heir.

However just from the information I receive here at TRF and through personal research, I feel Frederik is now more involved in what would generally be the monarch's activities than say Prince Charles or Crown Princess Victoria, as I can't imagine Elizabeth or Carl Gustaf leaving an important role as Margrethe did above to their heir unless they were incapacitated by illness. And Juan Carlos and Harald have only left duties like this to their heirs after major surgeries, etc.

This is solely my opinion though.

I do hope this will put to rest those who constantly say Frederik is one of the least prepared compared to Felipe, Charles, and Haakon. :flowers:

eliz 08-29-2011 04:49 PM

To Muhler and UserDane:
as an outsider, I get this very same impression. Perhaps even Frederik hosting the celebration for Baltic independence goes in the same direction.
IMO, QMII's behaviour might have been prompted by both Henrik's practically retiring and Frederik's becoming more and more able to cope with important duties. Both Frederik and Mary seem to be doing quite fine with their increased status, certainly (and obviously, given the age gap...) they are more enrgetic than the Regent Couple.

olebabs 08-29-2011 04:56 PM

Am I the only one being a little bit concerned as to the health of our Monarch? Or is she merely doing a de facto "Queen Juliana"?

American Dane 08-29-2011 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olebabs (Post 1309917)
Am I the only one being a little bit concerned as to the health of our Monarch? Or is she merely doing a de facto "Queen Juliana"?


Has she been sick recently?

Lumutqueen 08-29-2011 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Dane (Post 1309922)
Has she been sick recently?

That's just what I was thinking?

HRHHermione 08-29-2011 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

That's just what I was thinking?

Isn't she known to be a heavy smoker? That's worrisome

olebabs 08-29-2011 05:20 PM

No not to my knowledge, but she is not 25 anymore, a heavy smoker and had cancer surgery 15 years ago. Oh I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but she herself said several times that she will continue till she drops of the throne.

ricarda 08-29-2011 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1309885)
I would like to ask you members a question.

As you may know one of my pet-opinions is that M&F have taken over from the Regent Couple in most things but name.
Examples: A summer cruise, that apart from Guards Hussars, is identical to a cruise by the Regent Couple.
Normally QMII would rush home when a general election is called, including cancelling something as important as a state visit. This time she just left it to Frederik.
QMII is the commander-in-chief, yet when the navy turned 500 a year ago, she made one appearance and left the rest to M&F, including the highly symbolic naval review.
The regular visits to the Faroese Islands and Greenland are also indentical to the Regent Couple's.
Prince Henrik has basically retired.
Frederik is handling more and more public audiences.
In the documentary, The Kingdom behind the scenes, QMII admitted she is listening more and more to Frederik and allow him to put a significant thumbprint on the events.

Now, my question to you is: Are you in agreement with me? Also in comparison to how other RF's are handling it?
Or am I over-interpreting things?

I will take a backseat in this one and mainly listen with interest to your opinions.

IMO you are over-interpreting things a bit.
I don't think that Frederik&Mary have taken over in most things but name and I also don't think that Prince Henrik has basically retired. He was with the Queen in the USA and in Greenland and he will go to Russia next week. He still has his engagements in Dk and abroad, although fewer than before. I would call it half-retirement.

Queen Margrethe is still very active and present IMO, except when she is on holiday. She seems to have the attitude: Whatever happens during that time, my son and heir is Regent and he can handle it. (I mean how would it look if she rushed back? Wouldn't that make the whole "Regent"-position a bit ridiculous?)

Your examples: To me the summer cruise seemed very similar to those in 2004, 2006 and 2008. AFAIR Frederik&Mary haven't done any regular visits to the Faroese Islands and Greenland except those in the company of the Regent Couple/Queen (Frederik had a few engagements there but no official visit). AFAIR the Regent Couple attended the naval parade and reception, the 2 most important events of the 500th anniversary (but perhaps you mean another event?).

To me it seems the Regent Couple stepped back to a certain amount to let the CP Couple step in/up. F&M certainly have taken over more and more duties and gained more importance in the last years. Currently it seems the two couples are somehow sharing the responsibilites (2 couples - 2 palaces in Amalienborg) - perhaps more so than in other monarchies, except in the Netherlands - but I would say it's 50/50 at the moment, not more.

Lumutqueen 08-29-2011 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRHHermione

Isn't she known to be a heavy smoker? That's worrisome

I thought she quit when the palace went no smoking?

olebabs 08-29-2011 05:46 PM

OHHHH but NO. And since it is her own home, noone gets to dictate what one does at home, not even anti-smoking laws applying to public buildings. Allthough I'm sure she respects the law whenever she is out and about.

I for one, would certanly not voluntere for the job of telling her to not smoke in the palace :-)

American Dane 08-29-2011 06:05 PM

:lol: No the Queen will have a cigarette in her hand until her last breath if she can help it!
I realise she's a heavy smoker and isn't young anymore (though 71 is not really old anymore either) but my grandmother is a very heavy smoker, 87, and has no illness related to the smoking so I think we'll have Q Margrethe around for awhile :smile:

Viv 08-30-2011 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1309885)
As you may know one of my pet-opinions is that M&F have taken over from the Regent Couple in most things but name.
........ Now, my question to you is: Are you in agreement with me? Also in comparison to how other RF's are handling it?
Or am I over-interpreting things?

Muhler - IMO the situation is not entirely clear and unambigous, if you like. The CPLy couple has done at least one Dannebrog-cruise before, right?? And the alarm bells didn't go off at the time, if I rememberl correctly (but I'm not sure that I do :biggrin:!).


My opinion: HM is slowly stepping up the CPly couple, enabling her to take more time out. This has been going on for the past few years, it's nothing unusual! As for now I take it that the couple regent has been hiding in France, it's vacation time and there's also HRH's wine fields to attend to!
If health really is an issue here the one to worry about is Prince Henrik, IMO. BB keeps mentioning that he has trouble walking. Old age is catching up with him...

Viv

Zonk 08-30-2011 09:34 AM

IMO Fred and Mary are picking up more responsibilities and that is no more different in Denmark than other countries. Royals unlike you and I (or can't afford to retire) don't really have the option of "retiring" unless you count Juliana in the Netherlands where she abdicated. But I don't think she stopped working per se. So royals don't retire, they just cut back their activities.

As the Queen and DoE are getting older, you can see Charles and Camilla picking up more responsibilities. I would say the same with Beatrix (except she has WA and Maxima traveling with her). One wonders how it would have been if Claus had lived longer (but thats the topic of another thread).

I can honestly see Fred and Mary doing more international traveling on behalf of the Queen and Henrik. That get very tiring whether you are young or old, or just inbetween.:lol:

And lets not forget that Joachim did some significant traveling this year as well, if I am not mistaken.

camelot23ca 08-30-2011 02:27 PM

It seems to me they've been doing a gradual transition over the past couple of years. I'm sure Queen Margrethe can see, as many people have remarked on, that Frederik and Mary make an extremely good team. The Queen and Prince Consort are getting older, they've both had health conditions that have been made public and may well have some issues we don't know about - they may not have the energy and stamina needed to go full out anymore.

I think doing things gradually like that makes the most sense and it seems to me that most of the royal families take that approach. In the UK The Prince of Wales has played a prominent role for many years now, but I did notice that the announcement that Prince Phillip was going to be cutting back a bit with some of his patronages, (at 90 years old!), coincided nicely, and probably not entirely coincidentally, with Prince William marrying Kate Middleton. I would expect the new Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to play a more and more prominent role over the next couple of years, and if QEII enjoys the same long life her mother did I think there will come a time when Charles and Camilla are the de facto regent couple.

I guess for all of the families things really vary depending on how long the monarch lives and what kind of health they enjoy in their old age. 75 or 80 years old looks very different on different people.

kathia_sophia 08-30-2011 04:19 PM

women tend to live longer than man, but thats a whole new topic.

as for this matter, a ederly monarch doesnt necessary pass on more duties to the heir just because he is sick or dying.
its USUAL in ALL monarchies, that a King/Queen when is old enough, makes the heir work harder on their belief. In case, age makes a trick and takes the life of the monarch, the heir is full ready take their place!

An Ard Ri 09-02-2011 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Dane (Post 1309963)
:lol: No the Queen will have a cigarette in her hand until her last breath if she can help it!
I realise she's a heavy smoker and isn't young anymore (though 71 is not really old anymore either) but my grandmother is a very heavy smoker, 87, and has no illness related to the smoking so I think we'll have Q Margrethe around for awhile :smile:

I hope so.

pgm1952 09-02-2011 08:39 PM

The Danish monarchy seems liberal enough and in tune with the country enough to survive. I would love to see a Frederick X (the current crown prince) and even a Christian XI (his son). This is the oldest monarchy in Europe, the family are decent and open, and they are liked enough by the Danes to warrent keeping around.

Madame Royale 09-02-2011 09:22 PM

The Danish Monarchy exemplifies a workable cohesion with boundaries. By that I mean they are a visual and prominent part of the community, who can freely mix, shop, excursion, eat out and contribute with minimal fuss. In a sense, they are allowed a degree of normality perhaps not shared by all other royal families.

People while being naturally curious and wanting to wave or say 'hello', remain conscious of their space and that they aren't regular citizens.

It's like an invisible line that can be crossed but people are considerate and concerning enough to respect it.


It appears to me theres a real sense of tribal belonging in Denmark. Traditionally a small oceanic nation of farmers, fisherman and hunters, it is an old community with a great sense for modernity. The balance is key and it's beautiful to behold. I've experienced the richness of Danish culture personally, and there is a pride to it that resonates such warmth.

It really does exhibit aesthetic traits of a fairytale like Kingdom, imo.

nwinther 09-05-2011 10:00 AM

To Muhlers question re. F&M taking over.

Personally, I see it just as much a need from the CP couple to perform actual work, than a stepping-back from the Queen's part.

There's been a lot of critizism in Denmark from dissidents thinking that especially Frederik was just living it up. This may have hit the mark with F&M.

Or maybe it's just a development on Frederik's side, that he want's to do more actual representation. Surely this is a good idea both to the CP, the Queen and the country, as the Queen is supported (and won't burn out so fast), Frederik get a lot of XP under his belt, and the nation feels that the CP couple are pitching in "for real".

All in all it's for the better for all of us.

Viv 09-11-2011 04:42 PM

I am more and more inclined towards the Dutch tradition of abdication in
due course. Long waits for the top job are not necessarily good! HM should keep in mind the fate of another CP Frederik, later Frederik the 8th,
who ruled for a mere six years.
IMO the Queen has done a good job over the years, but -again IMO time
has come for a change if our monarchy has to survive in the long run.
HM does her best to hide that she is 'old school royalty', but she
doesn't always get away with it. She is certainly not of the 'bicycling' variety, and I believe that she is only rarely seen in Copenhagen-shops
these days. (Her shopping sprees are mainly in London, where she'll only
be recognized by other Danes.)
The other two Scandinavian RFs seem to have adjusted to the age
they're living in, like taking up humanitarian matters in a multicutural
society, the Norwegians in particular so.
IMO CP Frederik is about getting the hang of this, but it's definetely not
the style of his mother.

viv

American Dane 09-12-2011 04:50 AM

I thought I'd repost this here from the Danish State Visit thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Dane (Post 1315520)
Wasn't he receiving professional help with speaking during the IOC congress before he was elected? I believe they showed that in the DR documentary.

IMO I think Frederik has a "clutter"
Cluttering

I say that only because I suffer from it as well and it is very embarrassing. It explains why his speeches on paper are excellent but do not come out fluent when he speaks.


Muhler 09-12-2011 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Dane (Post 1315526)
I thought I'd repost this here from the Danish State Visit thread

You may be right. And I guess you are pretty qualified to judge whether someone "clutters". In that case, there is professional help to get, I presume? Just as with stuttering.

Frederik did indeed get professional councelling in connection with the IOC. It did not turn out well, in my opinion! Whoever coached Frederik outh to have been sacked.
It's my impression they focused much more on what he was supposed to say, rather than how to deliver it. Result: a double flop.

American Dane 09-12-2011 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhler (Post 1315529)
You may be right. And I guess you are pretty qualified to judge whether someone "clutters". In that case, there is professional help to get, I presume? Just as with stuttering.

Frederik did indeed get professional councelling in connection with the IOC. It did not turn out well, in my opinion! Whoever coached Frederik outh to have been sacked.
It's my impression they focused much more on what he was supposed to say, rather than how to deliver it. Result: a double flop.


Since cluttering doesn't have a physical component to it like stuttering, it is harder to get treatment the way a stutterer could. Also, it is both more unknown and more subtle than stuttering. It took a caring teacher to actually catch mine.

Perhaps the fact that Frederik received that help means that he'll be less likely to be offended if someone offered different help? I really feel bad for him but I also think his speaking endears him to the Danish people maybe as its very human to not be perfect at everything. Is that right?

shari-aree 09-12-2011 06:04 AM

Prince Frederik and Princess Mary will make a great team as King and Queen!
I have read that he is shy, but most shy people are compassionate < and that is a definite trait that is needed for a Monarch.
He is the first born son of the Monarch, so he will be King, he should be respected and allowed as much private time as can be afforded him now - don't pre-judge him - he still has so much he can do before becoming King.
I adore seeing pictures of Fred & Mary with their 4 lovely children, give them all time and I'm sure Denmark will be rewarded with a confident and competant couple !!!
(I love them!!)

Duke of Marmalade 09-12-2011 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Dane (Post 1315537)
but I also think his speaking endears him to the Danish people maybe as its very human to not be perfect at everything. Is that right?

I think in general you are right, Frederik has been very popular with the Danes for being imperfect and struggling with some issues while excelling in others (sports, trip to the pole etc).

However, if there is the impression that he doesnt bother and simply goes ahead with being bad in an essential subject without trying hard to improve (and Danes are aware what Frederik is capable of when trying hard, see above) and making a fool of himself and the country when representing patience will certainly run out quickly.

Margerthe was much younger when becoming monarch but Frederik has had the time to be more than ready and the result with regard to his speaking in public is quite disappointing.

American Dane 09-12-2011 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1315546)
I think in general you are right, Frederik has been very popular with the Danes for being imperfect and struggling with some issues while excelling in others (sports, trip to the pole etc).

However, if there is the impression that he doesnt bother and simply goes ahead with being bad in an essential subject without trying hard to improve (and Danes are aware what Frederik is capable of when trying hard, see above) and making a fool of himself and the country when representing patience will certainly run out quickly.

Margerthe was much younger when becoming monarch but Frederik has had the time to be more than ready and the result with regard to his speaking in public is quite disappointing.

:previous: I completely agree.

Viv 09-12-2011 09:01 AM

I have defended the prospect of CP Frederik's kingship and and I am willing to do it again :smile:! He comes accross as a emphatic person, and the fact that he has admitted to his reluctance - if not fright? -of his future role has endeared him to the Danes. He has fought hard to come to terms with his fate.
I'm afraid however that he will be further ridiculed by the republican minded media if he doesn't try to improve his public speaking.

Prince Joachim is very articulate in comparison! I'm old enough to remember that the Danes once wished that Joachim was the first born in stead of the very moody young Frederik! We don't wish to go there again for the monarchy's sake!

viv

Nordic 09-12-2011 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv (Post 1315579)
Prince Joachim is very articulate in comparison! I'm old enough to remember that the Danes once wished that Joachim was the first born in stead of the very moody young Frederik! We don't wish to go there again for the monarchy's sake!

Well, Frederik is not a very moody young man anymore, and he is not stupid. I think he knows that he needs
to improve his public speaking skills, but it might be a slow process.

Joachim might be more articulate and smooth, but Frederik seems to have many other good qualities that,
IMO, will make him a good King. The most important is that he is very good with people. All sorts of people.
I have nothing against Joachim, but there is no question who I would choose if I had the choice.

camelot23ca 09-12-2011 06:09 PM

Regarding Frederik's public speaking skills - I wouldn't take the occasional poor performance, even a very poor performance, as evidence that he hasn't gotten help with this skill. I don't think it's like riding a bike, where once you've learned how to pedal, brake, etc. you'll be a good rider from here on out. I think taking the last couple of years in aggregate Frederik has, in fact, improved quite a bit with his speaking. If he had a setback in Russia, (I haven't had a chance to follow the trip), well, maybe he was especially tired, or was asked to change his remarks at the last moment or he was talking to Mary on the phone just before and something in their conversation stressed him out, etc. Things that wouldn't throw off someone who is naturally good at speaking can be major for someone who finds it difficult to start with.

grevinnan 09-12-2011 08:16 PM

He has had a lifetime to prepare for the job as the Danish king. Only time will tell if the danish people will be satisfied with a likeable but not very polished king.

Duke of Marmalade 09-13-2011 12:40 AM

I think Mary will play an imporant part. Like in Sweden, people are willing to put up with an imperfect or flawed but popular King (I am not including the latest controversy around CG in this assessment) if they see he is trying hard and the spouse makes somewhat up for it.

I think its a fact that Frederik will be subject to much more scrutiny and the knifes will be out for critizism in case he still isnt willing to accept what he has been groomed for since he was born.

Lady Felicity M 09-13-2011 01:00 AM

I think as time goes on he will make a great king and espcially with Mary at his side, what he did as a young playful man is in the past. I think he will step up to the plate and become a good danish king

Nordic 09-13-2011 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade (Post 1315798)
I think Mary will play an imporant part. Like in Sweden, people are willing to put up with an imperfect or flawed but popular King (I am not including the latest controversy around CG in this assessment) if they see he is trying hard and the spouse makes somewhat up for it.

I think its a fact that Frederik will be subject to much more scrutiny and the knifes will be out for critizism in case he still isnt willing to accept what he has been groomed for since he was born.

Since nobody is perfect, I think there are lots of countries where people will have to accept an imperfect King or Queen.

The "not accepting his fate" phase was when he was young, wasn't it? About 20 years ago.
I think it has become quite clear a long time ago, that it's not how he feels anymore.

Madame Royale 09-13-2011 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grevinnan (Post 1315760)
Only time will tell if the danish people will be satisfied with a likeable but not very polished king.

Frederik IX, comes to mind. A man and King unpolished, but was very much endeared to his people.

A family man who had an interest in sports, the arts and loved a good party. And a proud naval man to boot! Perhaps its something in the name ;)

It's evident Frederik has a clear linguistic hesitance when infront of large crowds, and that's something one would hope he is being supported with.

It's always struck me how Frederik and Joachim's spoken english is so noticeably different. Frederik has what I'd consider to be a thick accent, while Joachim is so fluent when he talks english and as such, phrases his sentences quite well.

And as with the foreign born Ingrid, I believe the foreign born Mary will provide the polish that's required. Infact, the Crown Princess already does to a large extent.

Muhler 10-08-2011 12:40 PM

Translation of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #40, 2011.
(Some of you will no doubt enjoy the reply).

Q: During the state visit to Russia Crown Prince Frederik spoke black (idiom mening incomprehensible). Isn't it a problem that our future king or so rhetorically weak?

Jon Bloch Skipper: Wonder if you think about the following statement which got a good deal of attention in the press: "A socalled natural change has occoured, which time is responsible for. That is, that a natural development takes place over time for a country in particular. But also for the whole world". (*)
There is no reason to hide that the Crown Prince sometimes express himself in a knotty way. I have noticed myself that he often uses peculiar/amusing metaphores, reverses the order of words and use numerous fillers. He also often use the imprecise pronoun "one" which has a tendency to make the language imprecise. I do however think that many are way too busy focusing on the delivery, rather than listening to what he actually says. In regards to content there is rarely anything to go for/go after/sink your teeth into and that is after all what is most important.
Apart from that the Crown Prince has a number of personal qualities that will probably make him both a well liked, capable and contemporary monarch.

(*) If you were able to make sense of that in one go, my translation wasn't good enough...;)
The sentences in Danish: "Der er sket en såkaldt naturlig forandring, som tiden er ansvarlig for. Det vil sige at der jo sker en naturlig udvikling over tid for et land i særdeleshed. Men også for hele verden".

nwinther 10-12-2011 08:24 AM

The new Danish government is proposing a rewrite - headed by the social liberals - of the constitution, with one of the primary suggestions being a removal of the Monarchy or a reduction of it's role in politics (the traditional or symbolic role in astablishing government and calling elections).

Although there's internal strife in the party on the matter of the monarchy, I doubt that the danes have enough presence of mind to actually see the value of the monarchy - beyond the weekly magazines - and will readily throw monarchy in the bin based on the "economic burden", "tabloid-filler" arguments.

I pray they do - but I doubt it.

IMO, the monarchy should be strengthened - not weakened. They are, after all, the only protection the population have against politicians. (The ruling class's facination of the EU stands as a testament to that effect.)

FasterB 10-12-2011 02:32 PM

nwinther, Helle Thorning has said that the government will not touch the monarchys place in DK :)


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