But that doesn't mean it's desirable. IMO quite the contrary. As the nations peerless representative, he should have command of a dignified danish, and shouldn't let his vocabulary be so "totally" dominated by superlatives.

Then why isn't Joachim influenced by the same "bug". Surely he spoke quite a bit of english with Alexandra. In fact, Frederiks command of danish was a problem long before he met Mary. I just assume it comes easier to some than others.

I think his English sounds better than his Danish - and so does his German. Mind you, my German is very poor, so I'm not such a good judge.

I don't remember him speaking German, do you have a video of it?

hi everybody!
back home from a long day at work and tried to catch up with the thread.
many interesting points raised, and many observations:

First of all, i think we should distinguish the occasions in which frederik has to read a previously written speech from the ones when he has to answer questions without the aid of a written scheme.

as far as the reading of a written speech goes, it would fairly simple ti improve: together with his assistants he writes down what he has to say (and we all know that even great speakers such as Obama or Clinton have ghost writers, so i reckon frederik has one as well) and he reads it beforehand so as to give each word the right intonation and expression. i have watched two such occasion of his, his wedding speech and the speech on his mother 70th birthday, and he seemed pretty good. he did not show anxiety, as far as i could understand he did not stumble upon words, all in all very good performances where he managed to be personal, emotional and deep in his reflections even in a formal/fixed context.
i would like to know from the danes in the frum if these have been special occasions in which he had been excpetionally above his standards, or if he is ok at reading a written speech.

as far as interviews or free speech go, it is surely the hader work. he was ok (as in normal, not making me wonder if there was a problem there) to me after the twins were born (i judge the enlgish part only, on course), but you have already said that he had been better than his usual in this occasion. possibly he should try and keep his sentences shorter and really really focus on what he wants to convey. but i suspect we would get a duller and more controlled version of federik, which i am not sure would be an improvement.

there comes, in fact, the important factor of his charisma, of his being, or seeimg, open, warm, friendly and utterly likeable. well i think this could, and probably does, compensate at least in part for his defects as a speaker. i would even go on and say that maybe he sounds worse in official, formal occasions not in as much as he is overconscious of himself or overanxious - i repeat, he did not seem so at margrethe's birthday, but bc the occasion stiffles, so to speak, his character and so a defect which in less formal events is partially hidden by his personal charisma gets more prominence.
anyhow, were he to be a less nice guy, i suspect the press would criticise him a lot, while i get the impression that they like him.

Thanks for your observations.

I'd say he's okay, when reading a speech. He's not a brilliant speaker, that's to a large degree a talent in itself.

He has a tendency to stumble over the words and pause at the wrong places. Things that are typical of someone who is not used to (or comfortable about) giving speeches and someone who reads a speech out loud, gather than holding a speech.

He is at his best when what he says comes from the heart, whether is in a speech or something spontanous.

My impression of his English, is that he use the exact same speech pattern when dealing with the press as he does in Danish.

I believe he needs really intensive PR training and then a couple of victories. Then we'll see a different Frederik begin to emerge.

There are vids of him talking to German children. In Flensburg I believe.
That was an example of where Frederik was at his best. - With children.
He was relaxed, focused on the children and talking about a "kind dragon who lived at their palace".

as i said, i fear that intensive pr training, though very useful useful to overcome certain defects, could make him more formal and fixed, as he would speak according to a given pattern and not following what he really feels need to be said.
i don't not if it is worth the risk: not understanding danish i do not fully appreciate how lacking he is in oratorial abilities, but i would certainly like less a federik without spontaneity, folksy attitude, likeable body language.

i reckon he should try to read written speeches at his best, which is quite easily achieved, and the try to really focus and concentrate when he answers "random" questions. bc i get the impression, and correct me if i'm wrong, that he is often a bit in a world to himself- see e.g. when with mary on public duties, they often talk to each other, laugh. exchange private looks and so on, and he seems quite absorbed by this inner life of his. more absorbed by it than by the event going on around him.

I think the risk is quiet high, as you rightly mention. We all have seen politicians who seem to have booked the same trainer, they all us the same rethorical figures, the same gestures, and the same methodes.
And I don't think anybody would want Frederik to talk in the same way as a politician :whistling:

I don't know anything about speaking in public. I think there are some things that just never come naturally. I have read that even seasoned professionals like Barbra Streisand have problems "going on stage".

Yes Eliz, let's get back on track.

That's a valid point. A "trained" Frederik may lose his (to so many) endearing spontainity.

(...)

Eliz and Muhler-I agree with you about Frederik and more training. He can't seem to finish his sentences. I think that some more training would help him to stay organized and focused. He's clearly very intelligent, but he's having difficulty in getting the words out it seems.

A suitable King, IMO, is someone who has the faith and confidence of his people.
A king who the people aren't ashamed to call King. When they say "For King and Country", they actually mean it. When they go off to war and say they will fight for their King, they mean that as well.

IIRC the discussion was started in another thread and was originaly about the way Fred speaks in public (I think it started in the thread about Mary, Fred and the twins leaving the hospital) and from there it was moved to this thread by the mods. :smile: I don't think we will get a general definition of "suitable" as everyone has his/her own interpretation of what is suitable :smile:

But it is definetly a start :smile: What makes Frederik a suitable king in your opinion :smile:

I am realy looking forward to your view :smile:

(...)

I think that Frederik's military training and warmth among the people he meets are very good qualifications for a future king. He's great with people, and that is very important IMO.

(...)

Frederik seems like an outdoorsy person. He is probably also quite interested in the way things are grown. I like this quality in Frederik. He never seems to back down from a challenge-as is evident in his bicycle races, his frogman training and his strong desire to be part of the IOC.

What defines a king?
Phew, you do ask some difficult questions! :smile:

A king, well a monarch, is a person, who is feels natural for the nation to look to and gather around in times of crisis.
A person who by his attitude, lifestyle, moral standing and convictions does his best to be a living role model.
A person who is not perfect, a person who has faults without which it would be difficult to associate with him or find him endearing.
A person who with the abillities and talents he is born with, does not only his best, but his very best in the service of his country and people.
A man who has a very high personal integrity.

A man I can point at and say with pride: "That's my King". That's the official representative of my country and he's doing a damned good job.
A man I would lament, when he is gone.

Thank you for such an excellent response. :flowers:

Like King George VI (as in "Kings Speech) !

I haven't really kept track of Frederik's educational pursuits, save for the ones mentioned in interviews and documentaries. During meetings with the press, Frederik seems to have quite a bit of self-confidence, without a self-absorbed air about him; he seems very down-to-earth. Also, I know that he was not educated in the palace as his predecessors had been - he was educated at public schools, like any other Danish citizen, which (and this is just my opinion) made him more in-touch with the average person, as opposed to constantly being surrounded by other royals, servants or valets. Being more in touch with the people I imagine would make him better-suited to be King.

:rofl: Oh my. Just add QMII's head and it's the real thing! What was this? A comedy show in Denmark?

:flowers: Great post.

I think marriage has settled him down immensely but fatherhood has probably changed his perspective on life, family and country. He really does look like he is enjoying family life.

It's a satire-bit - maybe from an old satire show. Ulf Piilgaard, the actor parodying the queen in the bit - it's one of his specialties.

The idea is that the queen is answering the most stupid questions from the press - despite having said, that they've had "50 years to prepare their questions". Questions such as "what will the weather be like on the day" and "doesn't the queen have any regrets" (- a question the "queen" - under her breath - predicts will come) are the only kinds of questions asked.

I have to make it absolutely clear, that this satire bit from Muhler is not showing QMII as she is.:whistling:

QMII is not jumping up and down in her chair. QMII is just as the documentary, about the royal houses in Europe, shows. If anyone has seen this tv-serie.

She is talking a very old danish but with lots of style even though she sound like 80 years ago.:lol:

The very essence of satire is to show some traits about a person in an exaggerated way.
This satire is spot on! The actor, Ulf Pilgaard, did a good job :smile:

I second that, UserDane and will add that I´ve heard QMII applauding Ulf Pilgaard for his satire and has said herself that it is spot on.

Muhler, thanks for posting this video :flowers::flowers:!

I agree, this spoof is spot on regarding the younger Queen Margrethe. IMO her public speaking abilities have become less hectic and nervous
over the years!
CP Frederik did not get his insecure public speaking manners from strangers! Many Danes tend to forget that his mother was just as insecure,
it just came out differently! HM always tried to hide her insecurity by using plenty of metaphors, circumlocutions, reservations, old fashioned
words, double negations, the more so if she smells a controversial or politically charged subject.

Try reading a verbatim interview with her; it really takes some decoding and processing to figure out what she's trying to say!

The body language has become less nervous - thank heavens - but I
have to say that the actors spoof is priceless!

And now back on track: IMO CP Frederik will become an excellent monarch when his time comes! He will be able to connect to the people to
a greater extend that HM ever did. I'm also convinced that his public speaking ability will keep improving; it's evident that he's working on it!

Viv

You are absolutely right! It is an inherited trait in Frederik, it just manifests itself differently.

yes I agree.

The difference in the queen's and Frederik's ability and wish to interact personally with people under various circumstances was evident at the church ceremony in 2005 for the Danes killed at the tsunami; when the royal family left the church, the queen seemed a bit hesitant next to the rows with relatives to the dead and then opted for nodding to them. Frederik and Mary looked as if they would have liked to greet them all personally, but they had to follow the monarch's clue of course.
Margrethe has never seemed totally at ease in these situations, whereas Frederik would undoubtedly have walked straight to the relatives and given them a handshake.

Userdane, I remember that particular moment too well; I yelled at the TV " Move your butt, Queen! Shake their hands, offer your condolences!" .

Absolutely! I'm not sure whether he'd go as far as a hug, but I don't think that he'll shrink should it happen. Actually come to think of it, he did accept a hug on some occasion, didn't he?

Viv

Well I think we are experiencing af generation gap.:flowers:

I have not experienced QMII being nervous. You must be talking about QMII at the age of 18 or something.:lol:

Yes, I believe he has on several occasions; I think in recent years in connection with a bicycle race where a spectator was so thrilled to see him that Frederik got a big hug. He just grinned and hugged back.:smile:

That's possible :smile: ! If you are, say, under 30 you may not have noticed HM's nervousness when it was at its worst! But she centainly was until her ripe middle age! At interviews she was wriggling in her seat, looking at her watch or some 'vanishing point' in the distance, fiddling with her hands or jewellery, you name it! Though exaggerated, Ulf Pilgaard's sketch proves the point! He'd never have made it unless HM's gestures would ring a bell in an audience!

Another thing: We -meaning you, I and people in general - don't necessarily perceive people or situations in the same way! For instance HM's nervousness - when it was at its worst - would have been perceived as discomfort and nervousness by some while others would see it as a 'charming shyness'. Much is in the eye of the beholder!

Viv

IMO she has not lost all of those body language traits, though it is obvious that this actor is exaggerating. I noticed a much subtler version when watching HM interviewed for the program "A Royal Family."

At the end of my very long day at the medical facility where I work I chatted with a Danish surgeon and congratulated him on the birth of the new princes, and he said to me spontaneously w/o me mentioning a thing, (he might find me a lunatic being so royal mad:whistling:)about how he spoke to his mother (who lives in Denmark and is also in the medical field) and she mentioned how articulate Mary is and how Frederick is such a bumbler when it comes to public speeches. IMHO this is the face of the upper middle class in Denmark, and that' s how they see the Crown prince as in "Thank god for his wife, phew she saves the day"

Spot on, and hilarious. :lol: I wish I spoke Danish so I could understand it! I remember there was a comedian who was known for his imitation of Margrethe (it might have been this one), and Queen Ingrid once attended one of his shows. His staff informed him that the Queen Mother was in the audience, and thus he ought to skip the segment where he made fun of the Queen. At intermission, Ingrid sent a message backstage asking, "You're not thinking of leaving out the part about my daughter, are you? I've been wanting to see that!" :biggrin:

That's Preben Christensen, the spouse of Mary's hairdresser, Søren Hedegaard.
While Ulf Pilgaard is eminent in looking like QMII, Preben Christensen mimicks her voice very well.

Make a search at YouTube. Use the words: linie 3 dronningen. - and you'll find several videos.

In one of his Queen Margrethe imitations, Preben Kristensen had this line (which is probably better in Danish than in English) - spoken with a rather affected accent ....

'Our visit to Egypt where we rode and smoked Camels.... '

That is unfortunately a perception I also encounter pretty often. Not least by those who don't follow the DRF that closely. And many are not against the monarchy, on the contrary.

And it's a pity!
That's why I so much hope Frederik will address the issue. Because this is a weak point of his and he will get some heat for it in the future.
If he stuttered or had a lisp, people would accept that. But a poor performance in front of the media is not so readily accepted, and no matter how endearing and likable he is, it's annoying.
That's why I (and many with me, I can safely say) hope he will get some intensive training.
Do some of you remember the interview Jes Dorph Pedersen made with Frederik in connection with his 40th birthday? Jes Dorph Pedersen is probably among the most pro-DRF TV-journalists in DK, and still Frederik had problems expressing himself. - It was only when he talked about Mary and his children, he really got his message across.
At the press conference after he was elected to become a member of the IOC, he was roasted by the press. And he had been prepared for months for that.

When M&F were in New York some years ago, it was Mary who took over at the press conference, and she did well, despite not having nearly as much experience as now.

I hope someone will have, pardon me, the b...s to go up to Frederik and say: "You have a problem and you must deal with it"!

Excellently stated Muhler!
I may not be Danish, but I do adore CP Frederik and I will like to see him not only become King, but a King which all Danes can be proud of.

I hope it isn't a situation where the royal house is hoping that CP Frederik eventually "grows out" of his communication problems like Queen Margrethe did. With the media driven world that he will reign in, that would be a huge mistake!

By the way Muhler, what do we know about his new chief of court Christian Schønau outside of his biographical information? Is he the kind of person who isn't afraid to tell CP Frederik "Your Highness, you need media training!" IMO, the CP Couple need staff around them, who not only respect them, but also are not afraid to give them a kick in the a..s if necessary!

Muhler, If I may ask, what is Fredrik's problem exactly? After reading almost 3 pages, all I gather is that he's not as articulate as Mary. So the question for me is: Is he not articulate because he's not smart or he's uncomfortable discussing certain subjects? You seems to think he does fine as far as discussing his family, and since he does not stutter or have a lisp, so is his intelligence in question? Academics are often long-winded, but you seem to reject that argument, but I can't tell for myself because I don't speak the language. What is at the root of his "problem"?

He seems to be ready to go sailing and have fun other than that...I don't think he is mature enough yet.

From what I understand (and Muhler, please correct me if I'm wrong). It isn't that CP Frederik is not intelligent. He has a problem being able to communicate his thoughts coherently so that they make sense.

Muhler and others will explain further...:flowers:

With his level of education, why is it that he can't express himself coherently, and if it's not his intelligence then what is it? Even if he's not a skillful public speaker, he should at least make sense. There is a disconnect, and I don't understand what's hindering him.

There is nothing wrong with Frederik's intelligence or his general education.
He has in my opinion a problem translating his thoughts into a language that makes sense for everybody else.
It's a classic: I know what I mean, when I say something. But that may not be obvious to everybody else.
I think he knows exactly what he means and also what he wants to say, he just can't figure out how to say it, how to get it across. So he ends up using strange metaphores, not finishing his sentences and mumbling.
It's in many ways like watching someone who stutters or has a brain damage, they struggle with getting their message across.
But once he is in calm surroundings, is relaxed and have time to phrase his words into coherent sentences, then things go much better.
It's when people are looking at him, things go really bad.

That's why Gator's suggestion that he has a sort of impediment makes more and more sense to me.

If one of my children spoke like he did, I would seriously consider getting experts to have a look at them.

I don't know much. Except that he is a brilliant civil servant, who most likely will end up heading a ministerial department. - He is still new and he may also think of his future career so will he have the guts to stand up to Frederik?

I don't speak Danish...so I will let the Danish posters explain to you!:flowers:

That sounds like fear of public speaking, which I have!!!!

Thanks! I didn't think of that perspective!

I'd say if Frederik was diagnoced with some impediment and that was made public, he would be showered in praises and sympathy and his popularity would go off the scale.

The same thing would happen, albeit on a slightly less scale, if he were to go public and say: "Admittedly, I suck at expressing myself, not least when I'm in the public glare. But I'm working on it".

Or "I tremble inside and I dread press conferences. I would rather wrestle a polar bear. But I work on over coming that".

Self-acknowledgement is admirable but it can be hard to swallow your pride and admit, to yourself first and then everybody else that you have a problem.

Well, soon time to go home. Goodnight.

I think the problem is not so much an impediment but rather an intense fear and dislike of public speaking. I don't understand much Danish, but this means when I've watched Frederik speak I've focused almost entirely on how he's saying things, as opposed to what he's saying, and it seems pretty obvious that he finds it excruciating. The problem with a fear like that is the only way to get better is to do what he hates, (speaking), as much as possible, over and over again, realistically expecting only a gradual improvement over months or years. It's not like he does a speech this week, does one next week and then the third one there's going to be noticeable improvement. There would be a significant period of time where things wouldn't change at all and the only way to get to a point of improvement would be to keep at it. That would be a very difficult thing for anyone to go through, especially someone like Frederik, whose position is prominent enough that he knows many people will be listening, (always ready to criticize), when he speaks.

I think lack of intelligence is unlikely, if for no other reason then he's had a number of intelligent people, (including those who have no particular interest in protecting him or the monarchy), comment favourably on dealing with him in this regard. Also he's got some decent educational credentials which, regardless of his royal status, he wouldn't have been able to get if he were of below average intelligence. On the contrary, I think part of Frederik's problem with the speaking issue may be that he's very well able to compensate for that particular weakness with a host of other strengths.

That was a very interesting and informative post camelot:flowers:. What struck me most is your last phrase...because I think that this is exactly what's happening.
Isn't it ironic that it would be those compensations which are hindering the resolution of his greatest weakness?
I think Muhler is right, there needs to be someone who can directly tell CP Frederik that his communication skills suck and he needs help!

Thank you for your kind words, terri terri! I don't know much about the details of what kind of work would go into helping someone like Frederik, but I do have a school friend whose job requires him to do a significant amount of public speaking and who is also not naturally good at it. He worked with a coach for quite a long time, and I remember the work being quite intense and lengthy from the way he spoke of it, and he really has improved. But I also remember him saying it was horrible while he was going through it, in that this coach basically had him speaking at every possible opportunity and it took awhile to see results.
Frederik doesn't seem the sort to surround himself with yes-men and he's mentioned that Mary is a perfectionist and doesn't hesitate to criticize him if she feels it's needed. But I think in addition to that, if he really wants to get better, he needs a relationship with someone like my friend's 'coach' who will give him practical tips on how to get better and will also make sure he practices as much as possible.

Thanks, Muhler, Terri, and Camelot for your responses. Fear of public speaking makes perfect sense, and I agree with some coaching and a lot of practice he should be able to overcome this.

On paper Frederik looks like he would definately be suitable, but when I look at videos of him especially when you compare him to other Crown Princes he does seem to lack public speaking skills. I agree with some earlier posters that Joachim is much better at speaking and seems more comfortable as person in the public eye. IMO the best choice he made was picking Mary as a wife, she I feel can pick up the "slack" or make up for some his short comings.

Agree, you don't make a masters in political science if you're a complete moron, nor do you complete the Danish equivalent of the 'navy seals' training!

We (the Danes) don't know for certain whether CP Frederik has a speech coach - it's not being advertised by the royal court :biggrin: - IMO his public speaking has improved, but he's definetely not there yet!

I hope that he gets sound advice from those around him! CP Mary can offer her loving support, but the actual speech training must be taken care of by a indigenious Dane for obvious reasons!

Nor do we know what caused the problem in the first place, but considering his long- time reluctance - if not refusal - to
accept his lot in life I for one believe, that this is a deeply rooted psychological problem which takes a long time to overcome,
and a loving wife and stable family life is just the beginning of a long healing proces.

Viv

But it already was made public that he is getting help in that respect. So, he already admitted that he has a problem with expressing himself and he is working on it.

Perhaps the fact that he - according to the entire Danish media - expressed himself very well at the latest press-meeting is a result of that?
Besides, Frederik is totally able to give a speech that really touches peoples' hearts (I am thinking of Queen Margrethe's birthday last year).

So, although I think that he really could improve in that respect, I also think you are painting the picture darker than it is. Just as you are painting Joachim's picture brighter than it is (I actually know quite a few people who think that his way of talking is pompous and sometimes old-fashioned and problably the reason why he comes across as arrogant.)

I do agree with all you are saying.:flowers:

I didn't know that CP Frederik had been receiving guidance.

I thought it was just employing a spokes person for the court.

I distinctly remember an article about that (in connection with the IOC candidature).
But I must admit I don't remember the details and whether this was official or just a media report.

(...)

CP Frederik has especially when discussing sensible subject as IOC been very academic in his answers.

As far as I know CP Haakon has not been allowed to join IOC.

I can easely recognise his academic speach pattern when political issues or other sensible issues has to be avoided.

And actually he managed to talk his way into IOC. :flowers:

Well you try to join the navy seal - I doubt the average man survives this military corps:lol:

And yes he looks young but then againg he is not smoking:lol:

Thanks camelot, that is exaclty my opinion.
i guess than the people around frederik, when looking at the overall picture, are reasonably satified with it, and this could make it more difficult for them to tell him "your public speaking is terrible", because they are awarem and he is aware, that the people love him all the same.
probably mary is more perfectionist than he is, i think frederik himself has said so, so i think she can push him to improve and practise.

as for this being a case of fear of public speaking, i really don't know, bc if you watch at the videos for the queen's 70th birthday, you'll notice that he does not appear overanxious. he is not paler or nervous while speaking, his voice is not uncertain... and THAT certainly was the case of a live speech to be delivered in front of a while room crowded with royal peers and a whole nation watching it on the telly: the perfect occasion for panicking, stumbling etc.
in my opinion maybe it was mary who felt more anxious for her husband's sake, that would explain her enthusiast reaction after the speech.

Let's keep Joachim out of this for a moment.

Frederik did recieve help in connection with him becoming a member of the IOC. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, it was more focused on what he should say, rather than on how he should say it.
At around that time Frederik gave a speech in co-operation with the Ministry of Culture, if I remember correctly. That was amateur work! He was placed in front of a camera and stood there and delievered a speech and he was by no means impressive. - You can't blame Frederik for that one, his advisors failed him miserably. But what it does show, in my eyes, is that he is not getting the correct professional help.
In order to get help, you must be told that you need help, or realise it yourself. It's no help if those near to you haven't got the heart to tell you the truth, because they think you are nice or they don't have a problem understanding you personally.

It wasn't just the press who were impressed with Frederik at Rigshospitalet the day the twins came. So was I.
He can deliver, as I have stated several times. At Rigshospitalet he was relaxed and I doubt very much he even for a second thought about what impression he would make.
But something happens when he is being interviewed, when he seems to be aware of the situation. That's when things can and do go really bad.

Frederik is not a good speaker, fair enough. He mumbles, trip over the words, fair enough. These are bad habits and he can work on that and practise, practise a lot!
Because there is one little problem: Frederik is not 25 any more. He is a mature middleaged man in his early 40's, who has been preparing for his role all his life.
It doesn't do anymore to say: "Oh, he'll improve over time. It'll get better". When? When he is 50? 55? 60?
It's not going to be easier for him. Especially not since he and Mary are taking over more and more duties. Especially not since he could be king tomorrow.

I've been thinking about what you said, ricarda, perhaps I do paint a darker picture of Frederik. Perhaps my opinion is reinforced each time I see him not doing so well, because I pay special attention to that.
The problem is that I'm far from being the only one.

I think CP Marys reaction was that it was a very moving and a very personal speech.

He mentions QMII interest in especially the navy seal corps and very touching the warm relationship between QMII and CP Mary.

Billed-Bladet - Her er hele Frederiks tale til sin mor

(...)

At no time have we maligned Frederik's character, insulted his intelligence or make him out to be stupid. We have acknowledged that he gives the impression of being a warm, genuine person with the rare gift of being folksy, having the common touch and the ability to put people at ease, despite being born a royal. Those are his gifts!:flowers:

We are concentrating on one aspect only...his lack of communication skills sometimes.:smile: CP Frederik is going to be King...all people are asking for and hoping for...is that he can be the best King he can be, and his communication skills are an integral part of that.

I hope that the happy family life that he and Mary have created will go a long way in addressing his difficulties with that aspect of his role.

Yes, I had read the English translation of the speech, of course Mary must have been delighted at Frederik's words,
I was just speculating that, if Frederik's is a case of fear of public speaking, maybe she had shared his axiety in the previous days or his uncertainties about what to say etc, and weeing that in that partciular occasion everyhing turned out perfectly well maybe it was an extra factor which prompted her to go and kiss him

Well I'm not aware of CP Frederik having trouble speaking.

He is only academic when avoiding political issues.:lol:

And he talked himself into the IOC where as CP Haakon didn't :lol:

I was getting the impression that all was lost, until I read a couple of posts that made me think that perhaps Frederik might survive.

I think Frederik has many qualties that imo means he will be a good and respected King, his connection with the people be they young or not so young, he cares and is not afraid to show it. He also has a warm heart according to his mother, and is a wonderful family man by what we can see.
We have just been through a major flood and are still dealing with the crisis in many different and difficult ways, it was noted by all and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, it was not the best dressed or the best speaker that helped us deal with this at the major point of the crisis, it was the person that showed caring and connected with the people and was not afraid to show a bit of emotion that helped give people the courage to go on. This IMO is where Frederik holds his own and would do a far better job than most.

That is the truth:flowers:

And in Denmark we are watching the flood every night in the news. :sad: All danes feel for you I'm sure.

(...)


About Frederik's speaking abilities, well, yes Muhler you are definitely more pessimistic than I am. While I do recognize that Frederik is not likely to bring home the annual oratorial award (still, that speech for mom's 70th was pretty darn good ;)) it is, IMHO, not a major obstacle for his becoming a great king; and I believe that he will one day. His people communcation skills are far superior to eg. his mother's and I find that hugely important. To be considered a relevant king to the Danes he has to have these connecting abililties which I believe that he has. His younger brother does not have that connection among the Danes, IMO, in spite of his greater public speaking ease. They are two very different persons but the dynamics will work for them, and I think that Joachim is very loyal to his brother and will be able to complement him in many positive ways. I'm not a 'fan' of Joachim, but I do recognize his abilities and respect them.

I agree that Frederik's IOC speech was not the highlight of his oratorial career, however, he was at that point officially sailing the politically shark infested waters and I think that all newcomers to that organization are grilled about the history of the IOC by a host of extremely critical parties which may understandably leave the newcomer momentarily speechless!

It's been interesting catching up on this thread (marfre, I loved your post)

I'll second that :flowers:, if it makes any difference to anyone! I remember when many Danes (the late 80s early 90s) wished that Joachim were the heir apparent! Now I'm grateful that he isn't! He's probably a nice person privately, but what my antennae pick up in particular is the occasional contempt of hoi polloi (the ´people´) occasionally shown by his mother, when she's caught off guard.

Speech problems aside, is the IOC- membership a problem for the Danish heir only? What about the other royals in IOC? Have they met similar criticism in their countries??

Viv

I think he makes a good heir apparant. The comment about public speakingn was made more than a few years ago and he has improved greatly and is more than confident. I believe he initially stumbled in a small way to step forward into a group of royals and aristocrats among some politicians though was quite to contribute. Someone was asked of their opinion and merely pointed out he was unused to public speaking. He did a fine job and is much suited to the role.

The truth may be that others decided not to speak publicily and he should be applauded for doing so. :previous:


I think his mother is jocular in herself about the public not haughty and is quite proud of herself for the work she does for the public though they may not see all. She is a very nice woman and the public respond well to her as she is quite happy to be around people.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Frederik is suitable to be King of Denmark one day....afterall he is the Crown Prince!

I think it is unfair to compare Frederik and Joachim in any way other than as brothers as they are both different people and have different roles in their lives.

I sincerely hope you are right, UserDane. Nevertheless, if you are right and Frederik does not have an impediment of some sort, but it can all be contributed to nervousness and insecurity, I still hope and believe he should work on it, and work hard, harder than now.
Because he will get some heat for this in the future.

Well, I've been wrong before. I were among those who was very much against Frederik joining the IOC. I was certain he would end up in trouble for that.
So far, I've been proven wrong. May I continue being wrong...

(...)

For me the public speaking issue is only one relatively small piece of the puzzle when it comes to the question of Frederik's suitability. I think it's something he should work on and try to improve but I don't think it's something that in and of itself will make or break Frederik as king.

For me, the best indication of Frederik being an overall suitable King is that he's been an overall suitable Crown Prince. Becoming the monarch will be a big symbolic change, and possibly a big psychological change for Frederik himself, but I think the day to day activities will build on what he's been increasingly doing over the past couple years. Frederik is the second most experienced person in Denmark when it comes to the dealings of the monarch. I think sometimes the more mundane aspects of being the King, (or Queen), take a backseat in discussions like this to issues of personality, but I think on a practical level being a monarch is much like any other job in that there are a lot of skills that need to be mastered - public meetings and speaking, yes, but also issues of protocol, how a meeting with the government is conducted, how the royal household and staff is organized and how they liaise with the government and other segments of society, how to deal with paperwork, (is there any job that doesn't have paperwork? :) ), etc. These are the sorts of things we don't hear about as long as they run well, but I bet if you asked Queen Margrethe what she spends most of her working day doing she'd mention things like the above.

I have always thought that a country needs a king worthy, strong and responsible. Prince Frederick seems so fragile. Certain pictures of him show a whiny "little boy" who seems completely lost, but it's only my opinion

There is no doubt in my mind that CP Frederik has the suitabilithy to be(a good) King.
He has the edukation and he has the feeling for the people, and not to forget the love and suport of his wife.

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I've had a further thought about the suitability of Frederik as a king and what I want to add is that his suitability (and the suitability of other heirs to thrones) is dependent upon how the people of his country see him. Obviously there are technical quailties required of a monarch including the actual ability reign and carry out the various duties required of a monarch, but for me it is important to recognise the more personal and character qualities. Frederik seems a friendly, jolly sort of person, likeable, kind and caring to his family and friends, fun loving and serious when it is required of him. He has been brought up to respect the history and institutions of his country and works to building good relations between himself and the people of Denmark (as far as I can see anyway). He doesn't appear to look down upon anyone and doesn't seem to take advantage of his position. I know of no major scandals about him and he doesn't appear to have done anything detrimental to his country. So as far as I can see he's good for the job! Of-course all these atributes I have mentioned can easily apply to his brother Joachim, but of course, Joachim is not the crown prince!

Well IMO CP Frederik has proven his worth. He has achieved a master degree and on top of that the most difficult military education.

The danish love him because he is down to earth. The danes don't like arrogant people.

Perhaps that is a special trademark for Denmark. Arrogance is the worst of sins.

I'm not saying that Fred is bad, I find him fragile, and I can't imagine he has the stature to be a king, but I hope I am wrong

A king can be proud of what he represents, be aware of his value, without despising others, he may have a great ability, a certain class without being dismissive. And since you always talk of arrogance, being dignified and responsible has nothing to do with arrogance. People who are very well-educated can give a sense of pride and coldness, but I rather think they have great respect for others, and they know they can't get away with anything. Don't confuse dignity with insolence. Dignity is the prerogative of kings, insolence is for fools

Well You are very frank about the danish crown prince.

He is well educated but doesn't appear cold because he is a real warmhearted person and that what the danes likes

You are welcome to Mitterand or that other president you have at the moment:lol:

Danes don't like arrogant people. Perhaps you like dignified people - but I don't think the danes are big lovers of dignity:lol:

(...)

A man can make mistakes once in his life if he is very unhappy and misunderstood, even if he is a prince, this does not detract in any way his skills

I'd like to pose a question for all the Danes out there:

Is there currently, or has there ever been any question, within Denmark, as to Frederik's suitability for the kingship?

I know of reports that he's struggled with his own self-doubt in the past, but has there ever been a time when people have not respected him?

I ask simply because I struggle to see the relevance of this thread. Frederik is the Crown Prince, through the sheer accident of birth he is next in line to the throne. It is not a job where one can simply apply and be interviewed for the position. You are simply born to it. Therefore, logically, he is eminently suitable to be King whether he has certain qualities or not.

On an official level, like in a hearing? No.
Behind the scenes? Possibly yes. I would find it very strange if it wasn't a case for concern at the royal court at a time!
Then there's the media and the voxpops: His suitability has often been discussed in the media, not always in a fair and objective manner, especially by the tabloids. IMO no one really questions his suitability after his marriage, but his public speaking skills - or the lack hereof - is still being commented upon. And somehow - whether it's fair or not, these two issues get intertwined.

It's down to semantics, IMO and depends on what you mean by 'respect in this context! Many Danes have been duly worried about his suitablity and some still are. Is it lack of respect or is it a genuine concern?

Well, CP Frederik was born to the job! Some day he will inherit the throne, period! And yet it't not that simple, especially when the heir made it clear that he didn't like the future laid out for him and especially by showing that he didn't like what came with it, duties, press conferences and etc. That triggers a discussion about suitablity, not at least in this time and age, where the authority of old institutions isn't taken for granted!
For future reference the popularity and the relevance of a Royal Family will rest on the abilities of the individual members.

BTW This discussion has also popped up regularly in the UK (Prince of Wales).

All IMO of course, other Danes might think otherwise!
Viv

I don't think his suitablity or should I say his qualifications has been seriously questioned. It isn't now. And certainly not since Mary entered the scene.
It was more a question of preference.

Frederik went through a crisis when he was in his early 20's in particular. During which he was very much in doubt whether he wanted to be a king. And the prospect of becoming a king wasn't something he looked forward to, to put it mildly.
That shined through in his attitude, of course.

Then Joachim married when he was in his mid 20's. Alexandra became the undisputed star of the DRF and that of course rubbed off on Joachim. Who on top of that, no matter what people may think of him, is good when it comes to appearances.
And Frederik stood there alone, outshined, with no one at his side. No one serious that is.
When he turned 30 many people said: "Will he ever grow up? - Will he ever settle down? - If we could elect our king, why not Joachim? He and Alexandra seems to be doing a fine job".

Until around 2000 I was among those who preferred Joachim. After 2000 I began to realise Frederik's human qualities. As I got older myself, other qualities were considered and preferred.
Frederik's human qualities really stood out, when Mary came and when I realised how good she is, and what a good team they are, the table turned for me.
I think he'll do fine now. - He just need some improvement and work here and there.

When the prince of Orange announced his plans to join the IOC there was quite some criticism, both in the press as in parlament. He announced this in 1998 (not activated immidiately since he had to wait for the green light from The Hague), but the debate about it was postponed to 1999. In June of that year parlament had a debate about the matter, since many though the should cancel his plans. Prime Minister Wim Kok however defended the prince.

The objections mainly focussed on the corruption scandals in the IOC, and if our future head of state would or would not be compromised in working with so many corrupt people. Jacques Rogge & co investigated the IOC corruption and announced some measures, after which the prime minister allowe dthe membership of the prince to be activated.

In 1998 the announcement came as a big surprise, and apart from the corruption charges, a lot of attention was given to the fact that he only got the position due to nepotism. Apparently his staunchest supporters were NOC/NSF charwoman Erica Terpstra and his parents. Wouter Huibregsen, the original Dutch IOC candidate was angry as he claimed in an interview to the Volkskrant that the prince promissed to support him, and in the interview he called the prince a judas, coward and saboteur (statements that he would deny later on btw).

When the prince joined the comittee the criticism quickly disappeared.

-------

As for Frederiks suitability: I think that as long as people are potty trained and can eat with a fork and knive, they are suitable enough for the throne ;). Not all monarchs are good in holding speeches, overly clever etc. but usually they can all work out a way that makes the job suit their personality and skills.

Amen to that!

Plus, usually there are lots of unnoticed people in the background who can make up for all kind of shortcomings. Its a political / media environment where a capable Director or Communications and Strategy can do magic.

Frederik's speaking patterns
 

As a foreign academic who lived in Denmark (Copenhagen) for 12 years and learned a respectable Danish, I perceive Frederik's public speech to be influenced mostly by his being reared in Copenhagen. Foreigners trying to learn Danish soon realize that the Copenhagen dialect is very hard to understand - it comes across as mumbling with unusal and unexpected (for those not from Copenhagen) syntax. I find very little in Frederik's spontaneous public speaking that seems to be influenced by academia - it sounds like pure Copenhagenese to me!

Thanks for your perspective Borlig! It is interesting to get different view points on this subject from all over the world.:flowers:

I admire the CPrincely couple, but even Copenhaganese people say he is a bumbler as far as speeches go, and how wonderful that Mary makes up for it...

He can be eloquent actually. He was interviewed on TV on two occasions last week when he was leaving the handball stadium at Malmö - no sign of stumbling og mumbling - on the contrary a hint of the same 'flowery' use of the language his mother has and a nice display of humour.

"Flowery" language?

i don't understand danish, but indeed his replies sounded quite fluent and his humour was obvious. well maybe, as we habe already said in previous posts, it is because it was a situation in which he felt at ease, spontaneous and relaxed even if the cameras were there.
on the other hand, it is interesting that should it be the case of frederik doing better when interviewed (see also the press conference after the twins' birth) than when reading a prepared speech, then a new speech writer should be hired... (and having a speech writer is absolutely common for public figures, even a great public speaker like bill clinton has one...)

yes, use of metaphors, his way of describing what had just passed, it reminded me a bit of his mother's use of the Danish language

I think he is wonderful when he is caught on the fly so to speak. He is witty, humorous and not in the least stilted or boring. Now his formal speeches are another story altogether. The are rigid, remote and use a syntax and style of language more in vogue when his parents were young! Fire the speech writer or, more likely, retire him/her.

I think his marriage has done wonders for him. He has someone to love him and care for and about him and him alone. Mary seems to support Fred with ease and style and with the advent of the children people saw a whole new side to Fred. Relaxed, funny, a man who loves his family and is not afraid to show it.

The sort of distant relationship he and his mother endured seems to have been replaced with a relationship they both enjoy and his speech at her birthday was beautiful and covered all the colours that are Fred and the Mother who shaped his destiny.

TRH The Crown Prince Couple - Her Majesty the Queen's 70th birthday

I've met him and he seems like a down to earth chap. Think he would make a good king

Frederik and Mary are a great team
 

I don't for a minute profess to be an expert on such things.All I hope for in my heart is that the long running of the monarchy in Denmark continues and that Frederik and his wife Mary reign together as the loving couple they seem to be.I am a bit bias with Mary as I am an Australian who has watched Mary flourish in her role.In my mind I have no doubt as to Frederik's suitability and together Frederik and Mary have done everything expected of them.God Bless them both.:smile:

Joachim has been decribed as hot-tempered and moody in the past, an unbalanced Jekyll&Hyde character, unlike Frederik.

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

Yes, he's a fascinating man, isn't he?

It's difficult to write psycological profiles about anyone but I'll give it a try.

Joachim is a man with inborn contradictions.
By all accounts he is usually a very concientious man in regards to his position and job. He is also very conservative and traditions genuinely means something to him. He is the archetypical English gentleman with a stiff upper lip.
He is in many ways very reserved and he tend to keep people at an arms length, until they have been proved reliable. So does Frederik for that matter, the difference is that it's obvious with Joachim, because he is not as "folksy" as Frederik.
I have the impression that he is a man who resemble his mother in the sense that both of them can become impationt with people who babble too much or who are silly. QMII has openly admitted she has that trait, which she labels "aunt queen talking".
Joachim is in contrast also a very passionate man. That's obvious when we see him with our Marie or his children.
Interestingly is also a man who doesn't sit in a corner, when there is a party or for that matter attending a soccer match. In such situations, he out there!

[edit-JessRulz]
His deep passion for and intensely competitive approach to racing. In my opinion that's clearly an outleft, a way to really blow off steam.
Another little demon he has, is a kind of mischievious humour. That led to Frederik getting some heat after an episode in High school, where it really was Joachim and his friends who caused trouble. - A very minor incident, but things very more quiet back then, so it caused major headlines. And his brother has, according to Joachim, been the victim of several tricks designed to cause some mischief. - Again, I don't blame him, I love to do that myself.

So yes, Frederik has an interesting personality, but so has Joachim.

Very interesting Muhler :flowers:

In terms of contradiction I'd like to add that Joachim chose different type of women at different stages of his life, first Alexandra, very self confident career woman not afraid to take on the quasi-CP role when Frederik was unmarried.

Now he is back to what suited much better from the beginning for the Men's Man that Joachim is: Marie is more the adoring wifey, no career woman before Joachim, rather dangling along on what her rich family provided, very sweet, quite naive and obviously able to balance her husbands temper.

I have a feeling that we should be very careful about underestimating our Marie. ;)
Both she and Joachim have stated that she can be very stubborn and certainly capable of putting her foot down. She may not be that docile after all.

Do you speak of people in Denmark or people on messageboards?
Because I would say there are not many people in Denmark who wish(ed) Joachim was CP, even among those who are critical towards Frederik.
(In the last ~7 years I have only once seen that opinion expressed - in the book of "royal expert" Trine Villeman - and by the reaction her book received in Dk I dare say she did not express the opinion of "many Danes". ;))

There was a time more than ten years ago when Joachim was married to the popular Alexandra and was perceived as a happy responsible family man (while Frederik was still searching around and changing girlfriends) when that thought came up. But IMO it had little to do with Joachim's personality or popularity but a lot with his first wife and son. And even then the thought of Joachim as CP was not very popular (e.g. Frederik was voted most popular Dane in 1999).

I too find it quite interesting that he has chosen so different women. But I actually think Marie is very self-confident as well and not quite so naive (but rather someone who charmingly can talk herself out of any risky situation - as her schoolmaster put it - and you need intelligence for that). IMO Alexandra was more modern: ambitious, independent and out-spoken. Marie is more the "old-fashioned" manipulative type who gives her husband the impression he is the "man in the house" while she quietly does whatever she wants. (I am half Italian and Marie reminds me of many women in my family :smile:).

[QUOTE]MBs. Joachim is often described there as regal and a character and, especially if he was still married to Alex, would be the better CP. I prefer Frederik by a mile, one reason being what Muhler described as his "folksy" attitude.

I agree with you. Frederik may not be the most elegant or eloquent prince but he has the ability to emotionally connect with the (Danish) people which IMO is essential for a monarch. Joachim with all his qualities just doesn't have this ability.