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Elspeth 09-01-2005 02:43 AM

Definitely. The man looks positively desiccated.

Iain 09-01-2005 04:04 AM


Originally Posted by Elspeth
Heh! One of Britains best kings sandwiched between two of the worst! Mind you, I do think Henry V was overrated; he spent too much time trying to become King of France and not enough time looking after the country he did have.

I'm afraid Elsbeth that you are falling into the old habit many English people have of thinking that that the terms England and Britain mean the same thing. The Plantagenets were kings of England not Britain. Only someone who ascended the throne after 1707 can be described as Britain's king

Elspeth 09-01-2005 04:57 AM

Right. Kings of England, yep.

So wasn't Queen Anne Britain's Queen between 1707 and 1714, or did they wait till the start of the next reign to give the monarchs that designation?

Iain 09-01-2005 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by Elspeth
Right. Kings of England, yep.

So wasn't Queen Anne Britain's Queen between 1707 and 1714, or did they wait till the start of the next reign to give the monarchs that designation?

In 1603 James VI became king of England but both countries remained independent. In 1707 Scotland and England ceased to be independent countries so yes, Anne was the first British monarch.

Mapple 09-01-2005 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by Iain
In 1603 James VI became king of England but both countries remained independent. In 1707 Scotland and England ceased to be independent countries so yes, Anne was the first British monarch.

James VI and I allowed his subjects to use the style of 'King of Great Britain' in 1604; however, it was not used in legal documents.

Elspeth 09-01-2005 02:14 PM

Erm, btw, Iain, I'm not English, I'm British.:)

I'm only half English, but I'm all British.

Iain 09-02-2005 03:26 AM


Originally Posted by Elspeth
Erm, btw, Iain, I'm not English, I'm British.:)

I'm only half English, but I'm all British.

You're something of a rare breed then. In a recent opinion poll in Scotland over 80% said they no longer regarded themselves as British. I'm sure the Welsh feel the same way and I have a sneaking suspicion that many in England feel likewise. Just as the United Kingdoms of The Netherlands and Scandinavia broke up, I think it's only a matter of time till the British state is disbanded.

iowabelle 09-02-2005 05:38 PM


Originally Posted by tiaraprin
It was often said at the time that Henry VIII looked like his grandfather Edward IV. Many comparisons were made during Henry's youth.

When I look at Henry VII, I see a mean, miserable man in that portrait. Does anyone agree with me?

Yes, I think Henry 8 was an attractive young man, with the red hair he inherited from his mother.

Henry VII looks like a miser! He could have been cast as Ebeneezer Scrooge, don't you think? Why didn't he chop off the artist's head for that unbecoming portrait??

Elspeth 09-02-2005 09:52 PM

Well, in good Tudor Court tradition, maybe it wasn't unbecoming, maybe it was flattering.

And the propaganda of the time has Richard III being the unattractive one. Just goes to show, it pays to be on the winning side.

tiaraprin 09-03-2005 04:53 AM

Henry II of England, The First Plantagenet King
Henry II of England was born to Matilda, daughter of Henry I of England and her second husband The Count of Anjou.

His mother and his cousin Stephen waged civil war in England after the death of Henry I, both claiming to be the rightful heir. Henry I wanted his daughter to be Queen in her own right but many wanted a male heir. Stephen was the son of Henry I's sister Adela.

Henry II grew up in Anjou. When old enough, Henry fought to regain and protect his mother's birthright. Stephen, battered and defeated, signed the Treaty of Wallingford, naming Henry heir to the crown of England and disinheriting his own son, Eustace.

Henry married Eleanor of Aquitaine, former Queen of France, Duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. It was a love match in the beginning and many children were born to the couple. As time went on, Eleanor, who was 10 years older than Henry, began to age. Henry looked for affection elsewhere. Eleanor of Aquitaine, a highly powerful, independent woman in her own right, started to turn Henry's sons against him. The family descended into a truly violent, dysfunctional quarrel from which Henry II never freed himself. He died in 1189 with his son Richard, Coeur de Lion to succeed him. Eleanor lived on until 1204. When she died, Richard had died without issue and his brother John succeeded him. John signed the Magna Carta.

Henry II is also famous for being the "cause" for the murder of Saint Thomas A Beckett. Henry was quarreling with Beckett and exclaimed among his noble knights that he wished someone would kill Beckett. These knights took this as a command and brutally murdered Beckett in Canterbury Cathedral. The people of England were appalled by such a brutal act in a house of God. Henry paid Penitance and crept on his knees in a shirt made of course hair on a pilgrimage for forgiveness of his sin.

Here is a portrait of Henry

tiaraprin 09-10-2005 01:09 PM

Margaret of Anjou, Consort to Henry VI
This article courtesy of:

Margaret of Anjou,

Queen of Henry VI. of England, was the daughter of René d’Anjou, King of Naples. She was born about 1425, and was married to Henry VI. in 1445, the marriage being negotiated by the Earl of Suffolk. It was offensive to the Duke of Gloucester, one of the young king's guardians, and unpopular because it was accompanied by the giving up of the English possessions in France. The king falling into a state of imbecility, the real power was in Margaret's hands, and to tell her story fully would be to give in great part the history of the civil war which soon broke out between the rival houses of York and Lancaster. Intrepid in the field, she signalized herself by heading her troops in several battles; and if she had not been the occasion of her husband's misfortunes, by putting to death the Duke of Gloucester, his uncle, her name would have been immortalized for the fortitude, activity, and policy with which she supported the rights of her husband and son. The fatal defeat at Tewkesbury, in 1471, however, put an end to all her enterprises; she with the king being taken prisoner, and Prince Edward, their only son, being killed. Margaret was ransomed by Louis XI. in 1475, for 50,000 crowns, and died in Anjou, 1482.

Elspeth 09-10-2005 01:26 PM

She must have been one of the great characters of the Wars of the Roses. I've read several times that the role of Margaret is one of the most prized roles for women in any of the Shakespeare history plays, which are almost exclusively masculine.

I wonder what on earth her son would have turned out like, had he lived longer - with a father who was mostly off in another universe a lot of the time and a mother as forceful as Margaret, he would have been a psychologist's dream patient!

iowabelle 09-10-2005 06:29 PM

I'm a descendant of one of the knights who murdered Thomas a Becket.

(Not a good move in terms of your eternal salvation if you go about murdering future saints.)

tiaraprin 09-11-2005 12:22 AM

Anne Neville, The tragic Queen of Richard III and wife to Henry VI's murdered son
I wanted to post something about Anne Neville. Not many people seem to talk of her or even know who she was. Anne was a tragic pawn in the War of The Roses and came out on the losing end all of her life, though not by her own doing or choice. This is a woman who just yearned for a simple, quiet life. She never got her wish. Read the tragic life of Anne Neville, Dowager Princess of Wales, Duchess of Gloucester, and Queen Consort to Richard III.

Courtesy of:

Anne was born on June 11, 1456, at Warwick Castle, the younger daughter of Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick and Anne Beauchamp. Throughout her short life, she would be used as a political pawn. Much of her childhood was spent at Middleham Castle, one of her father's properties, where she and her elder sister, Isabella Neville, came into contact with the younger sons of Richard, Duke of York. These boys would play a major role in the destiny of both sisters.

Princess of Wales

At fourteen, Anne was betrothed by her father to Edward, Prince of Wales, heir to Henry VI of England. Anne's father, dissatisfied with the favours he had received for helping King Edward IV of England to the throne, had changed sides and allied himself with Margaret of Anjou, Queen consort of Henry VI. Margaret harboured suspicions about Warwick's motives, particularly since Anne's sister, Isabel, had by now married the reigning king's brother, George, Duke of Clarence. It is not certain that a formal marriage ceremony ever took place between Anne and Edward -- and, if so, whether their marriage was ever consummated -- but they were either married or formally betrothed (the legal equivalent of marriage) at the Chateau d'Amboise in France, probably on December 13, 1470.

The Earl of Warwick, who had been dispatched by Margaret to England to restore King Henry to the throne, succeeded in this task but was defeated and killed in battle a few months later. Anne arrived back in England with her new husband and mother-in-law to find herself fatherless. With the death of Edward at the Battle of Tewkesbury on May 4, 1471, Anne became a widow and the subject of some dispute between members of the House of York. There is a story that she was discovered by King Edward's younger brother, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, working as a servant in London. Whatever the truth, it is likely that Richard's desire to marry her arose out of a childhood affection, and that Clarence's desire to prevent such a marriage was motivated by his determination to be the sole heir to the Neville sisters' titles and properties (a large portion of which came to them from their mother, Anne Beauchamp).


Duchess of Gloucester

The marriage of Anne Neville and Richard, Duke of Gloucester, took place on July 12, 1472, at Westminster Abbey, and they made their marital home in the familiar surroundings of Middleham Castle, Richard having been appointed Governor of the North on the king's behalf. They had only one child, Edward, born at Middleham in around 1473. Anne's health was never good, and she probably suffered from tuberculosis.


Queen consort of England

On April 9, 1483, Edward IV died and succeeded by his elder son as Edward V of England. On June 25, 1483, Edward V and his siblings were declared illegitimate. Richard inherited the throne as King Richard III. Anne was crowned a Queen consort and her son was created Prince of Wales; however, Edward of Middleham died suddenly on April 9, 1484 at Sheriff Hutton, while his parents were absent. Following their bereavement, Anne effectively adopted her nephew, Edward, Earl of Warwick, and Richard made the boy his heir, probably in deference to her wishes.

Rumours that Richard planned to divorce Anne and marry his niece, Elizabeth of York, arose after the death of their son and heir, but there is little evidence for this and none at all for the later rumour that he had poisoned her. Anne died, probably of tuberculosis, on March 16, 1485, at Westminster, where she was buried. There was no memorial to her until the late 20th century, when one was established by the Richard III Society

Elspeth 09-11-2005 01:55 AM

Well, for all the bad things you hear about Richard III, it's nice that he married Anne as a result of a childhood friendship rather than just because of what she represented.

Of course, there have been rumours that he murdered her so he could marry Elizabeth, but I suppose that's to be expected since he's been portrayed over the years as the embodiment of evil.

tiaraprin 09-11-2005 01:12 PM

Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales, Son of Anne Neville
To follow up the article I posted on Anne Neville, here is the all too brief life of her only child Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales:

Edward of Middleham, also known as Edward Plantagenet (1473 - April 9 1484) was the only son of Richard III of England and his wife Anne Neville.

The exact year of Edward's birth is uncertain, but he is known to have been born at Middleham Castle, a former possession of his maternal grandfather, Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick. In 1478, following the execution of for more George, Duke of Clarence for treason the title Earl of Salisbury was granted to Edward until his death. The title then became extinct until restored to Clarence's family during the reign of King Henry VII.

Edward was also invested as Prince of Wales following his father's succession as king of England in 1483. The investiture ceremony took place at York Minster, and contemporary records suggest it was arranged in a hurry. It is thought possible that the boy had been unable to travel to London for his parents' coronation because of ill-health, but that his condition had improved by the time they reached the north of England.

Edward's sudden death left his father without an heir, leaving the way open for Henry Tudor to take the throne at the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485. Edward is buried in the parish church at Sheriff Hutton, another of his family's estates.

Elspeth 09-11-2005 01:58 PM

There are so many "what if's," aren't there? If Edward IV hadn't died while his son was still a minor, if Edward of Middleham hadn't died and left the Yorkists without a direct heir, if Edward Prince of Wales hadn't died and left the Lancastrians without a direct heir - who knows what we'd be learning in our history lessons now.

Elspeth 09-11-2005 01:59 PM

And why they all have to be called Edward is just another of those cosmic mysteries. You'd think it'd have occurred to them that people were going to have to learn about them in history lessons, and it'd have been nice to see a few other names in play.

Elspeth 09-14-2005 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by iowabelle
I'm a descendant of one of the knights who murdered Thomas a Becket.

(Not a good move in terms of your eternal salvation if you go about murdering future saints.)


Which one?

iowabelle 09-14-2005 03:34 PM


Originally Posted by Elspeth

Which one?

William de Tracy. He must have been a brute. Edward Grim, one of Becket's attendants, wrote:

The wicked knight (William de Tracy), fearing that the Archbishop would be rescued by the people in the nave... wounded this lamb who was sacrificed to God... cutting off the top of the head... by the same blow he wounded the arm of him that tell this story. For he, when the other monks and clerks fled, stuck close to the Archbishop...

Allegedly, Tracy was overcome with guilt (as he should have been) and tossed away his sword. And there was a curse that the family line would come to an end (and apparently the direct male line did die out in the 17th/18th centuries - a long time to wait for revenge!). I have also read on the internet about a ghost too.

William may have been an illegitimate grandchild of Henry I.

And what does that make me? A poor member of the Royal Forums!

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