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Elise,LadyofLancaster 12-01-2003 02:17 AM

The Plantagenets (1154-1399)
 
The House of Lancaster:

Henry IV (1399-1413 AD)

Henry IV was born at Bolingbroke in 1367 to John of Gaunt and Blanche of Lancaster. He married Mary Bohun in 1380, who bore him seven children before her death in 1394. In 1402, Henry remarried, taking as his bride Joan of Navarre. Henry had an on-again, off-again relationship with his cousin, Richard II . He was one of the Lords Appellant who, in 1388, persecuted many of Richard's advisor-favorites, but his excellence as a soldier gained the king's favor - Henry was created Duke of Hereford in 1397. In 1398, however, the increasingly suspicious Richard banished him for ten years. John of Gaunt's death in 1399 prompted Richard to confiscate the vast Lancastrian estates; Henry invaded England while Richard was on campaign in Ireland, usurping the throne from the king.

The very nature of Henry's usurpation dictated the circumstances of his reign - incessant rebellion became the order of the day. Richard's supporters immediately revolted upon his deposition in 1400. Two political blunders in the latter years of his reign diminished Henry's support. His marriage to Joan of Navarre was highly unpopular - she was, in fact, convicted of witchcraft in 1419. Scrope and Thomas Mawbray were executed in 1405 after conspiring against Henry; the Archbishop's execution alarmed the English people, adding to his unpopularity. He developed a nasty skin disorder and epilepsy, persuading many that God was punishing the king for executing an archbishop. Henry, ailing from leprosy and epilepsy, watched as Prince Henry controlled the government for the last two years of his reign.



Henry V (1413-1422 AD)

Henry V, the eldest son of Henry IV and Mary Bohun, was born in 1387. As per arrangement by the Treaty of Troyes, he married Catherine, daughter of the French King Charles VI, in June 1420. His only child, the future Henry VI, was born in 1421.


Henry was an accomplished soldier: at age fourteen he fought the Welsh forces of Owen ap Glendower; at age sixteen he commanded his father's forces at the battle of Shrewsbury; and shortly after his accession he put down a major Lollard uprising and an assassination plot by nobles still loyal to Richard II . He proposed to marry Catherine in 1415, demanding the old Plantagenet lands of Normandy and Anjou as his dowry. Charles VI refused and Henry declared war, opening yet another chapter in the Hundred Years' War. The French war served two purposes - to gain lands lost in previous battles and to focus attention away from any of his cousins' royal ambitions. Henry, possessed a masterful military mind and defeated the French at the Battle of Agincourt in October 1415, and by 1419 had captured Normandy, Picardy and much of the Capetian stronghold of the Ile-de-France.

By the Treaty of Troyes in 1420, Charles VI not only accepted Henry as his son-in-law, but passed over his own son to name Henry as heir to the French crown. Had Henry lived a mere two months longer, he would have been king of both England and France.

Henry had prematurely aged due to living the hard life of a soldier. He became seriously ill and died after returning from yet another French campaign; Catherine had bore his only son while he was away and Henry died having never seen the child.



Henry VI (1422-61, 1470-71 AD)

Henry VI was the only child of Henry V and Catherine of Valois, born on December 6, 1421. He married Margaret of Anjou in 1445; the union produced one son, Edward, who was killed in battle one day before Henry's execution. Henry came to the throne as an infant after the early death of his father; in name, he was king of both England and France, but a protector ruled each realm. He was educated by Richard Beauchamp beginning in 1428. The whole of Henry's reign was involved with retaining both of his crowns - in the end, he held neither.

Hostilities in France continued, but momentum swung to the French with the appearance of Joan of Arc in 1428. The seventeen year old was instrumental in rescuing the French Dauphin Charles in 1429; he was crowned at Reims as Charles VII, and she was burned at the stake as a heretic. English losses in Brittany (1449), Normandy (1450) and Gascony (1453) led to the conclusion of the Hundred Years' War in 1453. Henry lost his claim to all French soil except for Calais.

The Wars of the Roses began in full during Henry's reign. In 1453, Henry had an attack of the hereditary mental illness that plagued the French house of Valois; Richard, Duke of York , was made protector of the realm during the illness. His wife Margaret, a rather headstrong woman, alienated Richard upon Henry's recovery and Richard responded by attacking and defeating the queen's forces at St. Albans in 1455. Richard captured the king in 1460 and forced him to acknowledge Richard as heir to the crown. Henry escaped, joined the Lancastvian forces and attacked at Towton in March 1461, only to be defeated by the Yorks. Richard's son, Edward IV , was proclaimed king; Margaret and Henry were exiled to Scotland. They were captured in 1465 and imprisoned in the Tower of London until 1470. Henry was briefly restored to power in Settember 1470. Edward, Prince of Wales, died after his final victory at Tewkesbury on May 20, 1471 and Henry returned to the Tower. The last Lancastrian king was murdered the following day.



The House of York:

Edward IV (1461-70, 1471-83 AD)

Edward IV, son of Richard, Duke of York and Cicely Neville, was born in 1442. He married Elizabeth Woodville in 1464, the widow of the Lancastrian Sir John Grey, who bore him ten children. He also entertained many mistresses and had at least one illegitimate son.


Edward came to the throne through the efforts of his father; as Henry VI became increasingly less effective, Richard pressed the claim of the York family but was killed before he could ascend the throne: Edward deposed his cousin Henry after defeating the Lancastrians at Mortimer's Cross in 1461. Richard Neville, the Kingmaker, Earl of Warwick proclaimed Henry king once again in 1470, but less than a year elapsed when Edward reclaimed the crown and had Henry executed in 1471.

The rest of his reign was fairly uneventful. He revived the English claim to the French throne and invaded the weakened France, extorting a non-aggression treaty from Louis XI in 1475 which amounted to a lump payment of 75,000 crowns, and an annuity of 20,000. Edward had his brother, George, Duke of Clarendon, judicially murdered in 1478 on a charge of treason. His marriage to Elizabeth Woodville vexed his councilors, and he allowed many of the great nobles (such as his brother Richard) to build uncharacteristically large power bases in the provinces in return for their support.

Edward died suddenly in 1483, leaving behind two sons aged twelve and nine, five daughters, and a troubled legacy.



Edward V (1483 AD)

Edward V, eldest son of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, was born in 1470. He ascended the throne upon his father's death in April 1483, but reigned only two months before being deposed by his uncle, Richard, Duke of Gloucester. The entire episode is still shrouded in mystery. The Duke had Edward and his younger brother, Richard, imprisoned in the Tower and declared illegitimate amd named himself rightful heir to the crown. The two young boys never emerged from the Tower, apparently murdered by, or at least on the orders of, their Uncle Richard. During renovations to the Tower in 1674, the skeletons of two children were found, possibly the murdered boys.



Richard III (1483-5 AD)

Richard III, the eleventh child of Richard, Duke of York, and Cecily Neville, was born in 1452. He was created third Duke of Gloucester at the coronation of his brother, Edward IV. Richard had three children: one each of an illegitimate son and daughter, and one son by his first wife, Anne Neville, widow of Henry IV's son Edward.

Richard's reign gained an importance out of proportion to its length. He was the last of the Plantagenet dynasty, which had ruled England since 1154; he was the last English king to die on the battlefield; his death in 1485 is generally accepted between the medieval and modern ages in England; and he is credited with the responsibility for several murders: Henry VI , Henry's son Edward, his brother Clarence, and his nephews Edward and Richard.

Richard's power was immense, and upon the death of Edward IV, he positioned himself to seize the throne from the young Edward V. He feared a continuance of internal feuding should Edward V, under the influence of his mother's Woodville relatives, remain on the throne (most of this feared conflict would have undoubtedly come from Richard). The old nobility, also fearful of a strengthened Woodville clan, assembled and declared the succession of Edward V as illegal, due to weak evidence suggesting that Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous, thereby rendering his sons illegitimate and ineligible as heirs to the crown. Edward V and his younger brother, Richard of York, were imprisoned in the Tower of London, never to again emerge alive. Richard of Gloucester was crowned Richard III on July 6, 1483.

Four months into his reign he crushed a rebellion led by his former assistant Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham, who sought the installation of Henry Tudor , a diluted Lancaster, to the throne. The rebellion was crushed, but Tudor gathered troops and attacked Richard's forces on August 22, 1485, at the battle of Bosworth Field. The last major battle of the Wars of the Roses, Bosworth Field became the death place of Richard III. Historians have been noticeably unkind to Richard, based on purely circumstantial evidence; Shakespeare portrays him as a complete monster in his play, Richard III. One thing is for certain, however: Richard's defeat and the cessation of the Wars of the Roses allowed the stability England required to heal, consolidate, and push into the modern era.

Elise,LadyofLancaster 12-01-2003 02:20 AM

The Plantagenets
 
Henry III (1216-72 AD)
Born: 1 October 1207 at Winchester Castle
Died: 16 November 1272 at the Palace of Westminster
Buried: Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Parents: King John and Isabella (of Angouleme)
Siblings: Richard, Joan, Isabella & Eleanor
Crowned: (1st) 28 October 1216 at St. Peter's Abbey (Gloucester Cathedral), Gloucester, Gloucestershire; (2nd) 17th May 1220 at Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Married: 14 January 1236 at Canterbury Cathedral, Kent
Spouse: Eleanor daughter of Raymond Berenger, Count of Provence
Offspring: Edward, Margaret, Beatrice, Edmund, Richard, John, Katherine, William & Henry


Henry III, the first monarch to be crowned in his minority, inherited the throne at age nine. His reign began immersed in the rebellion created by his father, King John. London and most of the southeast were in the hands of the French Dauphin Louis and the northern regions were under the control of rebellious barons - only the midlands and southwest were loyal to the boy king. The barons, however, rallied under Henry's first regent, William the Marshall, and expelled the French Dauphin in 1217. William the Marshall governed until his death in 1219; Hugh de Burgh, the last of the justiciars to rule with the power of a king, governed until Henry came to the throne in earnest at age twenty-five.

Matters came to a head in 1258. Henry levied extortionate taxes to pay for debts incurred through war with Wales, failed campaigns in France, and an extensive program of ecclesiastical building. Inept diplomacy and military defeat led Henry to sell his hereditary claims to all the Angevin possessions in France except Gascony. When he assumed the considerable debts of the papacy in its fruitless war with Sicily, his barons demanded sweeping reforms and the king was in no position to offer resistance. Henry was forced to agree to the Provisions of Oxford, a document placing the barons in virtual control of the realm. A council of fifteen men, comprised of both the king's supporters and detractors, effected a situation whereby Henry could nothing without the council's knowledge and consent. The magnates handled every level of government with great unity initially but gradually succumbed to petty bickering; the Provisions of Oxford remained in force for only years. Henry reasserted his authority and denied the Provisions, resulting in the outbreak of civil war in 1264. Edward, Henry's eldest son, led the king's forces with the opposition commanded by Simon de Montfort, Henry's brother-in-law. At the Battle of Lewes, in Sussex, de Montfort defeated Edward and captured both king and son - and found himself in control of the government.

Later in 1265, de Montfort lost the support of one of the most powerful barons, the Earl of Gloucester, and Edward also managed to escape. The two gathered an army and defeated de Montfort at the Battle of Evasham, Worcestershire. de Montfort was slain and Henry was released; Henry resumed control of the throne but, for the remainder of his reign, Edward exercised the real power of the throne in his father's stead. The old king, after a long reign of fifty-six years, died in 1272. Although a failure as a politician and soldier, his reign was significant for defining the English monarchical position until the end of the fifteenth century: kingship limited by law.



Edward I, Longshanks (1272-1307 AD)
Born: 17 June 1239 at the Palace of Westminster
Died: 7 July 1307 at Burgh-on-Sands, Cumberland
Buried: Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Parents: Henry III and Eleanor of Provence
Siblings: Margaret, Beatrice, Edmund, Richard, John, Katherine, William & Henry
Crowned: 19 August 1274 at Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Married: (1st) October 1254 at Las Huelgas, Castile; (2nd) 10 September 1299 at Canterbury Cathedral
Spouse: (1st) Eleanor daughter of Ferdinand III, King of of Castile & Leon; (2nd) Margaret daughter of Philip III, King of France
Offspring: (1st) Eleanor, Joan, John, Henry, Julian (alias Katherine), Joan, Alfonso, Margaret, Berengaria, Mary, Alice, Elizabeth, Edward, Beatrice & Blanche; (2nd) Thomas, Edmund & Eleanor; (Illegitimate) supposedly one


Edward I, nicknamed "Longshanks" due to his great height and stature, was perhaps the most successful of the medieval monarchs. The first twenty years of his reign marked a high point of cooperation between crown and community. In these years, Edward made great strides in reforming government, consolidating territory, and defining foreign policy. He possessed the strength his father lacked and reasserted royal prerogative. Edward fathered many children as well: sixteen by Eleanor of Castille before her death in 1290, and three more by Margaret.

Edward held to the concept of community, and although at times unscrupulously aggressive, ruled with the general welfare of his subjects in mind. He perceived the crown as judge of the proper course of action for the realm and its chief legislator; royal authority was granted by law and should be fully utilized for the public good, but that same law also granted protection to the king's subjects. A king should rule with the advice and consent of those whose rights were in question. The level of interaction between king and subject allowed Edward considerable leeway in achieving his goals.

Edward concentrated on an aggressive foreign policy. A major campaign to control Llywelyn ap Gruffydd of Wales began in 1277 and lasted until Llywelyn's death in 1282. Wales was divided into shires, English civil law was introduced, and the region was administered by appointed justices. In the manner of earlier monarchs, Edward constructed many new castles to ensure his conquest. In 1301, the king's eldest son was named Prince of Wales, a title still granted to all first-born male heirs to the crown. Edward found limited success in extending English influence into Ireland: he introduced a Parliament in Dublin and increased commerce in a few coastal towns, but most of the country was controlled by independent barons or Celtic tribal chieftains. He retained English holdings in France through diplomacy, but was drawn into war by the incursions of Philip IV in Gascony. He negotiated a peace with France in 1303 and retained those areas England held before the war.

Edward's involvement in Scotland had far reaching effects. The country had developed a feudal kingdom similar to England in the Lowlands the Celtic tribal culture dispersed to the Highlands. After the death of the Scottish king, Alexander III, Edward negotiated a treaty whereby Margaret, Maid of Norway and legitimate heir to the Scottish crown, would be brought to England to marry his oldest son, the future Edward II. Margaret, however, died in 1290 en route to England, leaving a disputed succession in Scotland; Edward claimed the right to intercede as feudal lord of the Scottish kings through their Anglo-Norman roots. Edward arbitrated between thirteen different claimants and chose John Baliol. Baliol did homage to Edward as his lord, but the Scots resisted Edward's demands for military service. In 1296, Edward invaded Scotland and soundly defeated the Scots under Baliol Ð Baliol was forced to abdicate and the Scottish barons did homage to Edward as their king. William Wallace incited a rebellion in 1297, defeated the English army at Stirling, and harassed England's northern counties. The next year, Edward defeated Wallace at the Battle of Falkirk but encountered continued resistance until Wallace's capture and execution in 1304. Robert Bruce, the grandson of a claimant to the throne in 1290, instigated another revolt in 1306 and would ultimately defeat the army of Edward II at Bannockburn. Edward's campaigns in Scotland were ruthless and aroused in the Scots a hatred of England that would endure for generations.




Edward II (1307-27 AD)
Born: 25 April 1284 at Caernarfon Castle, Gwynedd
Murdered: 21 September 1327 at Berkeley Castle, Gloucestershire
Buried: St. Peter's Abbey (Gloucester Cathedral), Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Parents: Edward I and Eleanor of Castile
Siblings: Eleanor, Joan, John, Henry, Julian (alias Katherine), Joan, Alfonso, Margaret, Berengaria, Mary, Alice, Elizabeth, Beatrice & Blanche
Crowned: 25 February 1308 at Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Abdicated: 25 January 1327
Married: 25 January 1308 at Boulogne Cathedral
Spouse: Isabella daughter of Philip IV, King of France
Offspring: Edward, John, Eleanor & Joan


Edward II lacked the royal dignity of his father and failed miserably as king. He inherited his father's war with Scotland and displayed his ineptitude as a soldier. Disgruntled barons, already wary of Edward as Prince of Wales, sought to check his power from the beginning of his reign. He raised the ire of the nobility by lavishing money and other rewards upon his male favorites. Such extreme unpopularity would eventually cost Edward his life.

Edward I's dream of a unified British nation quickly disintegrated under his weak son. Baronial rebellion opened the way for Robert Bruce to reconquer much of Scotland. In 1314, Bruce defeated English forces at the battle of Bannockburn and ensured Scottish independence until the union of England and Scotland in 1707. Bruce also incited rebellion in Ireland and reduced English influence to the confines of the Pale.

Edward's preference for surrounding himself with outsiders harkened back to the troubled reign of Henry III. The most notable was Piers Gaveston, a young Gascon exiled by Edward I for his undue influence on the Prince of Wales and, most likely, the king's homosexual lover. The arrogant and licentious Gaveston wielded considerable power after being recalled by Edward. The magnates, alienated by the relationship, rallied in opposition behind the king's cousin, Thomas, Earl of Lancaster; the Parliaments of 1310 and 1311 imposed restrictions on Edward's power and exiled Gaveston. The barons revolted in 1312 and Gaveston was murdered - full rebellion was avoided only by Edward's acceptance of further restrictions. Although Lancaster shared the responsibilities of governing with Edward, the king came under the influence of yet another despicable favorite, Hugh Dispenser. In 1322, Edward showed a rare display of resolve and gathered an army to meet Lancaster at the Battle of Boroughbridge in Yorkshire. Edward prevailed and executed Lancaster. He and Dispenser ruled the government but again acquired many enemies - 28 knights and barons were executed for rebelling and many exiled.

Edward sent his queen, Isabella, to negotiate with her brother, French king Charles IV, regarding affairs in Gascony. She fell into an open romance with Roger Mortimer, one of Edward's disaffected barons, and persuaded Edward to send their young son to France. The rebellious couple invaded England in 1326 and imprisoned Edward. The king was deposed in 1327, replaced by his son, Edward III, and murdered in September at Berkeley castle.

Sir Richard Baker, in reference to Edward I in A Chronicle of the Kings of England, makes a strong indictment against Edward II: "His great unfortunateness was in his greatest blessing; for of four sons which he had by his Queen Eleanor, three of them died in his own lifetime, who were worthy to have outlived him; and the fourth outlived him, who was worthy never to have been born."




Edward III (1327-1377 AD)
Born: 13 November 1312 at Windsor Castle, Berkshire
Died: 21 June 1377 at Sheen Palace, Richmond, Surrey
Buried: Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Parents: Edward II and Isabella of France
Siblings: John, Eleanor & Joan
Crowned: 1 February 1327 at Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Married: 24 January 1328 at York Minster, Yorkshire
Spouse: Philippa daughter of William V, Count of Hainault & Holland
Offspring: Edward, the Black Prince; Isabella; Joan; William of Hatfield; Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence; John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster; Edmund of Langley, Duke of York; Blanche; Mary; Margaret; William of Windsor; and Thomas of Woodstock, Duke of Gloucester; (Illegitimate) at least three by Alice Perrers



Edward's youth was spent in his mother's court and he was crowned at age fourteen after his father was deposed. After three years of domination by his mother and her lover, Roger Mortimer, Edward instigated a palace revolt in 1330 and assumed control of the government. Mortimer was executed and Isabella was exiled from court. Edward was married to Philippa of Hainault in 1328 and the union produced many children; the 75% survival rate of their children - nine out of twelve lived through adulthood - was incredible considering conditions of the day.

War occupied the largest part of Edward's reign. He and Edward Baliol defeated David II of Scotland and drove David into exile in 1333. French cooperation with the Scots, French aggression in Gascony, and Edward's claim to the disputed throne of France (through his mother, Isabella) led to the first phase of the Hundred Years' war. The naval battle of Sluys (1340) gave England control of the Channel, and battles at Crecy (1346) and Calais (1347) established English supremacy on land. Hostilities ceased in the aftermath of the Black Death but war flared up again with an English invasion of France in 1355. Edward, the Black Prince and eldest son of Edward III, trounced the French cavalry at Poitiers (1356) and captured the French King John. In 1359, the Black Prince encircled Paris with his army and the defeated French negotiated for peace. The Treaty of Bretigny in 1360 ceded huge areas of northern and western France to English sovereignty. Hostilities arose again in 1369 as English armies under the king's third son, John of Gaunt, invaded France. English military strength, weakened considerably after the plague, gradually lost so much ground that by 1375, Edward agreed to the Treaty of Bruges, leaving only the coastal towns of Calais, Bordeaux, and Bayonne in English hands.

The nature of English society transformed greatly during Edward's reign. Edward learned from the mistakes of his father and affected more cordial relations with the nobility than any previous monarch. Feudalism dissipated as mercantilism emerged: the nobility changed from a large body with relatively small holdings to a small body that held great lands and wealth. Mercenary troops replaced feudal obligations as the means of gathering armies. Taxation of exports and commerce overtook land-based taxes as the primary form of financing government (and war). Wealth was accrued by merchants as they and other middle class subjects appeared regularly for parliamentary sessions. Parliament formally divided into two houses - the upper representing the nobility and high clergy with the lower representing the middle classes - and met regularly to finance Edward's wars and pass statutes. Treason was defined by statute for the first time (1352), the office of Justice of the Peace was created to aid sheriffs (1361), and English replaced French as the national language (1362).

Despite the king's early successes and England's general prosperity, much remained amiss in the realm. Edward and his nobles touted romantic chivalry as their credo while plundering a devastated France; chivalry emphasized the glory of war while reality stressed its costs. The influence of the Church decreased but John Wycliff spearheaded an ecclesiastical reform movement that challenged church exploitation by both the king and the pope. During 1348-1350, bubonic plague (the Black Death) ravaged the populations of Europe by as much as a fifty per cent. The flowering English economy was struck hard by the ensuing rise in prices and wages. The failed military excursions of John of Gaunt into France caused excessive taxation and eroded Edward's popular support.

The last years of Edward's reign mirrored the first, in that a woman again dominated him. Philippa died in 1369 and Edward took the unscrupulous Alice Perrers as his mistress. With Edward in his dotage and the Black Prince ill, Perrers and William Latimer (the chamberlain of the household) dominated the court with the support of John of Gaunt. Edward, the Black Prince, died in 1376 and the old king spent the last year of his life grieving. Rafael Holinshed, in Chronicles of England, suggested that Edward believed the death of his son was a punishment for usurping his father's crown: "But finally the thing that most grieved him, was the loss of that most noble gentleman, his dear son Prince Edward . . . But this and other mishaps that chanced to him now in his old years might seem to come to pass for a revenge of his disobedience showed to his in usurping against him. . ."


Richard II (1377-1399 AD)

Born: 6 January 1367 at Bordeaux, Gascony
Murdered: 14 February 1400 at Pontefract Castle, Yorkshire
Buried: Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Parents: Edward, Prince of Wales - "the Black Prince" - and Joan, the "Fair Maid of Kent"
Siblings: Edward of Angouleme
Crowned: 16 July 1377 at Westminster Abbey, Middlesex
Abdicated: 29 September 1399
Married: (1st) 14 January 1382 at St. Stephen's Chapel in the Palace of Westminster, Middlesex; (2nd) 4th November 1396 at Calais
Spouse: (1st) Anne daughter of Charles IV, Holy Roman Emperor & King of Bohemia; (2nd) Isabella daughter of Charles VI, King of France
Offspring: None
Named Heir: His cousin, Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March


Richard II, born in 1367, was the son of Edward, the Black Prince and Joan, the Fair Maid of Kent. Edward was but ten years old when he succeeded his grandfather, Edward III ; England was ruled by a council under the leadership of John of Gaunt , and Richard was tutored by Sir Simon Burley. He married the much-beloved Anne of Bohemia in 1382, who died childless in 1394. Edward remarried in 1396, wedding the seven year old Isabella of Valois, daughter of Charles VI of France, to end a further struggle with France.

Richard asserted royal authority during an era of royal restrictions. Economic hardship followed the Black Death, as wages and prices rapidly increased. Parliament exacerbated the problem by passing legislation limiting wages but failing to also regulate prices. In 1381, Wat Tyler led the Peasants' Revolt against the oppressive government policies of John of Gaunt. Richard's unwise generosity to his favorites - Michael de la Pole, Robert de Vere and others - led Thomas, Duke of Gloucester and four other magnates to form the Lords Appellant. The five Lords Appellant tried and convicted five of Richard's closest advisors for treason. In 1397, Richard arrested three of the five Lords, coerced Parliament to sentence them to death and banished the other two. One of the exiles was Henry Bolingbroke, the future Henry IV . Richard travelled to Ireland in 1399 to quell warring chieftains, allowing Bolingboke to return to England and be elected king by Parliament. Richard lacked support and was quickly captured by Henry IV.

Deposed in 1399, Richard was murdered while in prison, the first casualty of the Wars of the Roses between the Houses of Lancaster and York.

tiaraprin 08-20-2005 08:24 AM

The Plantagenet dynasty has been the longest running dynasty of the English Crown.

The Plantagenets grew out of the bitter feud between Matilda, daughter of Henry I and Stephen, son of Henry I's sister Adela. Henry I lost his only legitimate son in a tragic drowning and felt he had no choice but to name Matilda, his only legitimate child left, his heir. He had all the feudal lords swear allegiance to her, but after his death, problems began. No woman had ruled in her own right and many felt the crown should pass to the next legitimate male heir, Stephen. A bitter civil war was fought for many years with ups and downs for both Matilda and Stephen. In the end, Matilda's son, Henry Plantagenet, defeated his uncle on the battlefield and a compromise was made. Stephen could remain King for his lifetime provided Henry Plantagenet was his heir. Stephen had no choice and displaced his son Eustace for Henry. Upon Stephen's death, Henry II became the first Plantagenet King. The dynasty ended with the death of Richard III on Bosworth Field in 1485 when Henry Tudor took the crown and created the House of Tudor.

tiaraprin 08-21-2005 01:44 AM

Some Portraits of the Plantagenet Kings
 
© Dean and Chapter of Westminster/Royal Collection


Richard II

https://www.royal.gov.uk/files/images/richard-II_lrg.jpg





King Henry V The Royal Collection © 2005, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

https://www.royal.gov.uk/files/images/henry-V_lrg.jpg


Richard III, the last Plantagenet The Royal Collection © 2005, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

https://www.royal.gov.uk/files/images...rd-III_lrg.jpg

Elspeth 08-21-2005 03:15 AM

Heh! One of Britains best kings sandwiched between two of the worst! Mind you, I do think Henry V was overrated; he spent too much time trying to become King of France and not enough time looking after the country he did have.

Warren 08-21-2005 03:18 AM

A very successful and powerful dynasty that in the end destroyed itself with internal battles for power. Essentially the 'Wars of the Roses' was a bitter, and lethal, struggle within the family, which ended up wiping most of them out. Check the genealogies and count the number of members of this extended and sprawling dynasty who were either killed in battle or executed. The lust for power overcame any familial solidarity.

Fortunately Princess Elizabeth of York (the sister of the 'Princes in the Tower') survived the bloodshed, married Henry Tudor, and in her son who became King Henry VIII, reunited in a way the two branches of York and Lancaster.
.

tiaraprin 08-21-2005 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Heh! One of Britains best kings sandwiched between two of the worst! Mind you, I do think Henry V was overrated; he spent too much time trying to become King of France and not enough time looking after the country he did have.

Very astute observation Elspeth!! He would have succeeded to if he hadn't died of dysentery and left the crown to his infant son, Henry VI.

Henry's widow, Catherine of Valois, went on to make a secret marriage with Welshman Owen Tudor. From this marriage, the Tudor dynasty stems and the Tudors are the ones who ended the Plantagenet line. Isn't it Ironic, dont ya think??:D

Portrait of the Marriage of Catherine de Valois and King Henry V of England:

https://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...rine-of-Valois

https://www.nationmaster.com/wikimir/...3/Cathvloi.JPG

Elspeth 08-21-2005 03:38 AM

Well, Henry VI wasn't one of our better efforts either, for that matter!

I've always been interested in the Wars of the Roses because my mother comes from Tewkesbury, where one of the major battles was fought. Every year apparently they do a reenactment (although I don't think they did when I was a kid and used to visit my grandparents there) - it used to be held on the field where the actual battle took place, but the latest owners have forbidden it so now they set it up somewhere near the river.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire...medieval.shtml

Some of the buildings and places mentioned in contemporary descriptions of the battle are still standing.

This is the building where Queen Margaret is said to have stayed before the battle:

https://www.gupshillmanor.co.uk/

This is the church where several Lancastrians tried to claim sanctuary after they lost the battle but were dragged out and killed:

https://www.tewkesburyabbey.org.uk/

It was one of the abbeys that Henry VIII confiscated from the church during the time of the dissolution of the monasteries, and it was unusual in that the townspeople got together and bought it back from him. I believe it's the oldest Norman church still in constant use in England.

This is Bloody Meadow, where the battle took place:

https://www.geograph.co.uk/photo/20492

It's just down the road from where one of my cousins lives.

The main street probably doesn't look all that different from back in the 15th century (apart from the tarmac road, of course).

https://www.tmgcon.com/tewksweb/history.htm

tiaraprin 08-21-2005 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Well, Henry VI wasn't one of our better efforts either, for that matter!

Well, Henry VI inherited the madness through his mother, Catherine of Valois. Her father, Charles VI of France was convinced he was made of glass!!

Here is a bio of Charles VI of France, Father of Catherine de Valois & Grandfather of Henry VI, and where the madness of Henry VI came from:

https://www.xs4all.nl/~kvenjb/madmona...arles6_bio.htm

Elspeth 08-21-2005 03:46 AM

The joys of inbreeding....

tiaraprin 08-21-2005 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
The joys of inbreeding....

You are too funny Elspeth!!!!:p :p

Here is an article and small portrait of Henry VI (I am throwing portraits everywhere to get people into it!)

https://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040024

https://cache.eb.com/eb/thumb?id=1223


I don't think his sanity was helped by having a wife such as Margaret of Anjou and having to deal with the Earl of Warwick, "The King Maker".

Mapple 08-21-2005 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Well, Henry VI inherited the madness through his mother, Catherine of Valois. Her father, Charles VI of France was convinced he was made of glass!!

And then Catherine of Valois married Owen Tudor... Small wonder that most of the Tudors were funny peculiar. ;)

grecka 08-21-2005 12:56 PM

I think it's rather funny that a Plantaganet princess ended up marrying a commoner. The Plantaganets were very fond of considering and trumpeting their extensive blood ties to Charlemagne and to various important imperial figures of medieval Europe and yet Catherine of Valois, in the end, became one of the only prominent royal figures of the Middle Ages (as far as I know) to marry a commoner without noble titles and an impressive pedigree. There's a line in the BBC mini-series Elizabeth R, I recall, in which the character Lettice Knollys calls the Tudors the offspring "of a Welsh butler."

Elspeth 08-21-2005 01:28 PM

Well, talking about marrying commoners, Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville wasn't exactly the height of diplomacy either.

Sometimes I think the monarchs from Edward II to Henry VII did all this stuff because they knew that students hundreds of years later would be made to memorise their wretched family trees. Turbulent years, those.

tiaraprin 08-21-2005 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Well, talking about marrying commoners, Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville wasn't exactly the height of diplomacy either.

Sometimes I think the monarchs from Edward II to Henry VII did all this stuff because they knew that students hundreds of years later would be made to memorise their wretched family trees. Turbulent years, those.

Yes Elizabeth Woodville pulled the ultimate stunt by refusing to grant Edward IV favors unless he married her. The ultimate coup on her part! Edward, thinking with the wrong part of his body, married her. Marriage to her let her have free reign on her greed for money and position for herself and her family. She married a young male relative to an elderly heiress so he would get her money when she died!

Warren 08-22-2005 05:02 AM

A Plantagenet innovator?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Elizabeth Woodville... married a young male relative to an elderly heiress so he would get her money when she died!

Perhaps Elizabeth Woodville was a forerunner of the modern financial planner?

:)

Elspeth 08-22-2005 01:41 PM

See, nowadays financial planners just go around sucking the toes of topless princesses in line-of-sight of powerful cameras. They had so much more style back in the Middle Ages.:D

EmpressRouge 08-22-2005 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Yes Elizabeth Woodville pulled the ultimate stunt by refusing to grant Edward IV favors unless he married her. The ultimate coup on her part! Edward, thinking with the wrong part of his body, married her. Marriage to her let her have free reign on her greed for money and position for herself and her family. She married a young male relative to an elderly heiress so he would get her money when she died!

Edward IV's grandson found himself in an almost identical situation: Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn.

Mapple 08-22-2005 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grecka
I think it's rather funny that a Plantaganet princess ended up marrying a commoner. ...

To be precise, Catherine was Valois by blood. But still, marrying a commoner was no mean feat for French royals as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge
Edward IV's grandson found himself in an almost identical situation: Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn.

Nevertheless he managed to get her pregnant with Gloriana before the (open) marriage ceremony. :)

Mapple 08-22-2005 02:59 PM

The Battle of Bosworth
 
Today is the anniversary of the Battle of Bosworth Field. King Richard III was slain in the battle, and the House of Tudor obtained the English Crown.

tiaraprin 08-23-2005 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
Perhaps Elizabeth Woodville was a forerunner of the modern financial planner?

:)


Warren, you never cease to make me laugh with that dry wit!!:p Here is a little glimpse of what Edward IV was trying to get his hands on!! :p :eek:

Elizabeth Woodville [Royal Collection, Queen's College, Ashmolean Museum]:


https://www.r3.org/rnt1991/images/elizabeth.jpg

Elspeth 08-23-2005 02:09 AM

It's interesting - unlike a lot of portraits of that era, Elizabeth Woodville looks like someone who would be considered very attractive nowadays. Edward had progressive tastes, apparently.

tiaraprin 08-23-2005 02:23 AM

Here is the website for the Richard III society: https://www.r3.org/rnt1991/paintedqueen.html

Read about those who support Richard III and feel he got a bum rap. Read about the War of the Roses and other key players in this saga of sagas. It also talks about the Princes in the Tower and the Bones discovered there in 1674. Those bones are buried in Westminster Abbey and have been assumed to be Edward V, and Richard, Duke of York--last of the Yorkist and Plantagenet lines.

It is a true Royal Murder Mystery!!

Elspeth 08-23-2005 03:23 PM

Have you read The Sunne In Splendour, by Sharon Kay Penman? It's a historical novel about Richard III written from a pro-Richard point of view.


I think Shakespeare had a lot to do with the negative public perception of Richard III with his hatchet job in the play he wrote. Of course, since he was living in the era of Lancastrian monarchs who got there by defeating the Yorkist Richard, he couldn't very well have done otherwise if he wanted to keep his job. But once Shakespeare had turned Richard into one of the worst monsters in his entire output of plays,poor Richard didn't have much of a chance where public perception was concerned over the years.

tiaraprin 08-24-2005 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Have you read The Sunne In Splendour, by Sharon Kay Penman? It's a historical novel about Richard III written from a pro-Richard point of view.


I think Shakespeare had a lot to do with the negative public perception of Richard III with his hatchet job in the play he wrote. Of course, since he was living in the era of Lancastrian monarchs who got there by defeating the Yorkist Richard, he couldn't very well have done otherwise if he wanted to keep his job. But once Shakespeare had turned Richard into one of the worst monsters in his entire output of plays,poor Richard didn't have much of a chance where public perception was concerned over the years.

Quite true Elspeth. Shakespeare was going to write Pro-Tudor under Elizabeth I.

Shakespeare has exaggerated the deformities of Richard in relation to being a hunchback. He was not as deformed as Master Shakespeare and the Tudors would wish us to believe. Master Shakespeare had to create a "physical monster" to go hand in hand with the "psychological monster" of Pro-Tudor promotion.

All of Shakespeare's exaggeration aside, I do think Richard III is responsible for the murder of the Princes in the Tower. He had the most to gain by it. While I wouldn't put it past Henry VII, I believe those boys were dead soon after the usurpation by Richard III. Henry VII could not have done it then. (Just My Opinion)

Elspeth 08-24-2005 01:13 AM

In Sharon Kay Penman's book, the Duke of Buckingham did it. I know that's one of the theories held by some of the Richard III apologists.

tiaraprin 08-24-2005 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
In Sharon Kay Penman's book, the Duke of Buckingham did it. I know that's one of the theories held by some of the Richard III apologists.

Really Elspeth?? I didn't know about that theory. Could you expand on what she wrote?

infantaellamaria 08-24-2005 01:15 AM

I wonder if they were as ugly as their paintings depict

tiaraprin 08-24-2005 01:21 AM

The Princes in the Tower
 
Go to this website to read about the Princes in the Tower:
https://www.crimelibrary.com/notoriou...princes/1.html


Portrait of the Princes in the Tower
(National Archives)

https://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics...princes/1a.jpg

queenanne 08-24-2005 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Have you read The Sunne In Splendour, by Sharon Kay Penman? It's a historical novel about Richard III written from a pro-Richard point of view.


I think Shakespeare had a lot to do with the negative public perception of Richard III with his hatchet job in the play he wrote. Of course, since he was living in the era of Lancastrian monarchs who got there by defeating the Yorkist Richard, he couldn't very well have done otherwise if he wanted to keep his job. But once Shakespeare had turned Richard into one of the worst monsters in his entire output of plays,poor Richard didn't have much of a chance where public perception was concerned over the years.

Yes, and I loved it! Did you like it? She wrote a trilogy, also, that deals with the Plantagenets and their Welsh adversaries, that is, Llewelyn Fawr/John Lackland, Simon de Montfort/Henry III and Llewelyn ap Gruffyd/Edward I. The books in this trilogy are "Here Be Dragons", "Falls the Shadow" and "The Reckoning". They, along with The Sunne in Splendour, are my favorites of her works. Has anyone here read them?

Elspeth 08-24-2005 03:27 AM

Yes, but it was a long time ago. I also liked When Christ and His Saints Slept; it must have been a horrifying era to live through, but it made a good story.

Elspeth 08-24-2005 03:33 AM

Tiaraprin, the Duke of Buckingham also had a claim to the throne and was popular. Penman's thesis was that if the Duke could murder the princes (actually the king and the prince, I suppose) and pin the blame on Richard, he'd get both of his rivals out of the way at once and people would turn to him as the natural successor. He reckoned without the Lancastrians coming back into the picture, of course, although his claim to the throne was as good as Henry Tudor's.

tiaraprin 08-24-2005 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Tiaraprin, the Duke of Buckingham also had a claim to the throne and was popular. Penman's thesis was that if the Duke could murder the princes (actually the king and the prince, I suppose) and pin the blame on Richard, he'd get both of his rivals out of the way at once and people would turn to him as the natural successor. He reckoned without the Lancastrians coming back into the picture, of course, although his claim to the throne was as good as Henry Tudor's.

Thank you for filling in the gap. I had forgotten that piece of the intricate puzzle. When I read it I was like, you dummy, how did you forget that part!!!:p

EmpressRouge 08-24-2005 08:09 PM

Anyone hear of the rumors that it was Henry VII who killed them. If this were true, I wonder if he married Elizabeth of York to get close to them, or if she known or how she felt about it.

tiaraprin 08-24-2005 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge
Anyone hear of the rumors that it was Henry VII who killed them. If this were true, I wonder if he married Elizabeth of York to get close to them, or if she known or how she felt about it.

Henry VII is considered one of the key suspects. How Elizabeth of York would of felt, we wouldn't know. They seemed happy together in their own way which makes me think he didn't do it. I don't think she would have a happy marriage with the murderer of her brothers!

tiaraprin 09-01-2005 12:27 AM

Here is a pic of Henry VII:worldroots.com https://images-partners.google.com/im...ifs/henry7.jpg

tiaraprin 09-01-2005 12:36 AM

Edward V of England, one of the sad Princes in the Tower
 
Here is a truly rare signature, Edward V of England (one of the Princes in the Tower). It says in French: Your good cousin, Edward R.

https://www.r3.org/rnt1991/mysovereignking.html


https://www.r3.org/rnt1991/images/e4_sig.jpg

Elspeth 09-01-2005 12:46 AM

Looking at the picture of Henry VII, it's hard to believe he's Henry VIII's father! It looks as though the genes skipped a couple of generations and went straight from Edward IV to Henry VIII.

iowabelle 09-01-2005 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Henry VII is considered one of the key suspects. How Elizabeth of York would of felt, we wouldn't know. They seemed happy together in their own way which makes me think he didn't do it. I don't think she would have a happy marriage with the murderer of her brothers!

My suspicion/guess is that the princes were already dead or missing when Henry VII took the throne. Although Henry clearly married Elizabeth for dynastic purposes, I agree that they seem to have gotten along pretty well for a royal married couple of that period (and, unusually, he doesn't seem to have been a cheater).

tiaraprin 09-01-2005 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Looking at the picture of Henry VII, it's hard to believe he's Henry VIII's father! It looks as though the genes skipped a couple of generations and went straight from Edward IV to Henry VIII.

It was often said at the time that Henry VIII looked like his grandfather Edward IV. Many comparisons were made during Henry's youth.

When I look at Henry VII, I see a mean, miserable man in that portrait. Does anyone agree with me?

Elspeth 09-01-2005 02:43 AM

Definitely. The man looks positively desiccated.

Iain 09-01-2005 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Heh! One of Britains best kings sandwiched between two of the worst! Mind you, I do think Henry V was overrated; he spent too much time trying to become King of France and not enough time looking after the country he did have.

I'm afraid Elsbeth that you are falling into the old habit many English people have of thinking that that the terms England and Britain mean the same thing. The Plantagenets were kings of England not Britain. Only someone who ascended the throne after 1707 can be described as Britain's king

Elspeth 09-01-2005 04:57 AM

Right. Kings of England, yep.

So wasn't Queen Anne Britain's Queen between 1707 and 1714, or did they wait till the start of the next reign to give the monarchs that designation?

Iain 09-01-2005 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Right. Kings of England, yep.

So wasn't Queen Anne Britain's Queen between 1707 and 1714, or did they wait till the start of the next reign to give the monarchs that designation?

In 1603 James VI became king of England but both countries remained independent. In 1707 Scotland and England ceased to be independent countries so yes, Anne was the first British monarch.

Mapple 09-01-2005 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain
In 1603 James VI became king of England but both countries remained independent. In 1707 Scotland and England ceased to be independent countries so yes, Anne was the first British monarch.

James VI and I allowed his subjects to use the style of 'King of Great Britain' in 1604; however, it was not used in legal documents.

Elspeth 09-01-2005 02:14 PM

Erm, btw, Iain, I'm not English, I'm British.:)

I'm only half English, but I'm all British.

Iain 09-02-2005 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Erm, btw, Iain, I'm not English, I'm British.:)

I'm only half English, but I'm all British.

You're something of a rare breed then. In a recent opinion poll in Scotland over 80% said they no longer regarded themselves as British. I'm sure the Welsh feel the same way and I have a sneaking suspicion that many in England feel likewise. Just as the United Kingdoms of The Netherlands and Scandinavia broke up, I think it's only a matter of time till the British state is disbanded.

iowabelle 09-02-2005 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
It was often said at the time that Henry VIII looked like his grandfather Edward IV. Many comparisons were made during Henry's youth.

When I look at Henry VII, I see a mean, miserable man in that portrait. Does anyone agree with me?

Yes, I think Henry 8 was an attractive young man, with the red hair he inherited from his mother.

Henry VII looks like a miser! He could have been cast as Ebeneezer Scrooge, don't you think? Why didn't he chop off the artist's head for that unbecoming portrait??

Elspeth 09-02-2005 09:52 PM

Well, in good Tudor Court tradition, maybe it wasn't unbecoming, maybe it was flattering.

And the propaganda of the time has Richard III being the unattractive one. Just goes to show, it pays to be on the winning side.

tiaraprin 09-03-2005 04:53 AM

Henry II of England, The First Plantagenet King
 
Henry II of England was born to Matilda, daughter of Henry I of England and her second husband The Count of Anjou.

His mother and his cousin Stephen waged civil war in England after the death of Henry I, both claiming to be the rightful heir. Henry I wanted his daughter to be Queen in her own right but many wanted a male heir. Stephen was the son of Henry I's sister Adela.

Henry II grew up in Anjou. When old enough, Henry fought to regain and protect his mother's birthright. Stephen, battered and defeated, signed the Treaty of Wallingford, naming Henry heir to the crown of England and disinheriting his own son, Eustace.

Henry married Eleanor of Aquitaine, former Queen of France, Duchess of Aquitaine in her own right. It was a love match in the beginning and many children were born to the couple. As time went on, Eleanor, who was 10 years older than Henry, began to age. Henry looked for affection elsewhere. Eleanor of Aquitaine, a highly powerful, independent woman in her own right, started to turn Henry's sons against him. The family descended into a truly violent, dysfunctional quarrel from which Henry II never freed himself. He died in 1189 with his son Richard, Coeur de Lion to succeed him. Eleanor lived on until 1204. When she died, Richard had died without issue and his brother John succeeded him. John signed the Magna Carta.

Henry II is also famous for being the "cause" for the murder of Saint Thomas A Beckett. Henry was quarreling with Beckett and exclaimed among his noble knights that he wished someone would kill Beckett. These knights took this as a command and brutally murdered Beckett in Canterbury Cathedral. The people of England were appalled by such a brutal act in a house of God. Henry paid Penitance and crept on his knees in a shirt made of course hair on a pilgrimage for forgiveness of his sin.


Here is a portrait of Henry https://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin...y_ii_1154.html


https://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin...ry_ii_1154.jpg






tiaraprin 09-10-2005 01:09 PM

Margaret of Anjou, Consort to Henry VI
 
This article courtesy of: https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/royalty...argaretofAnjou


Margaret of Anjou,

Queen of Henry VI. of England, was the daughter of René d’Anjou, King of Naples. She was born about 1425, and was married to Henry VI. in 1445, the marriage being negotiated by the Earl of Suffolk. It was offensive to the Duke of Gloucester, one of the young king's guardians, and unpopular because it was accompanied by the giving up of the English possessions in France. The king falling into a state of imbecility, the real power was in Margaret's hands, and to tell her story fully would be to give in great part the history of the civil war which soon broke out between the rival houses of York and Lancaster. Intrepid in the field, she signalized herself by heading her troops in several battles; and if she had not been the occasion of her husband's misfortunes, by putting to death the Duke of Gloucester, his uncle, her name would have been immortalized for the fortitude, activity, and policy with which she supported the rights of her husband and son. The fatal defeat at Tewkesbury, in 1471, however, put an end to all her enterprises; she with the king being taken prisoner, and Prince Edward, their only son, being killed. Margaret was ransomed by Louis XI. in 1475, for 50,000 crowns, and died in Anjou, 1482.

Elspeth 09-10-2005 01:26 PM

She must have been one of the great characters of the Wars of the Roses. I've read several times that the role of Margaret is one of the most prized roles for women in any of the Shakespeare history plays, which are almost exclusively masculine.

I wonder what on earth her son would have turned out like, had he lived longer - with a father who was mostly off in another universe a lot of the time and a mother as forceful as Margaret, he would have been a psychologist's dream patient!

iowabelle 09-10-2005 06:29 PM

I'm a descendant of one of the knights who murdered Thomas a Becket.

(Not a good move in terms of your eternal salvation if you go about murdering future saints.)

tiaraprin 09-11-2005 12:22 AM

Anne Neville, The tragic Queen of Richard III and wife to Henry VI's murdered son
 
I wanted to post something about Anne Neville. Not many people seem to talk of her or even know who she was. Anne was a tragic pawn in the War of The Roses and came out on the losing end all of her life, though not by her own doing or choice. This is a woman who just yearned for a simple, quiet life. She never got her wish. Read the tragic life of Anne Neville, Dowager Princess of Wales, Duchess of Gloucester, and Queen Consort to Richard III.

Courtesy of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Ne...ncess_of_Wales

Anne was born on June 11, 1456, at Warwick Castle, the younger daughter of Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick and Anne Beauchamp. Throughout her short life, she would be used as a political pawn. Much of her childhood was spent at Middleham Castle, one of her father's properties, where she and her elder sister, Isabella Neville, came into contact with the younger sons of Richard, Duke of York. These boys would play a major role in the destiny of both sisters.
[edit]


Princess of Wales

At fourteen, Anne was betrothed by her father to Edward, Prince of Wales, heir to Henry VI of England. Anne's father, dissatisfied with the favours he had received for helping King Edward IV of England to the throne, had changed sides and allied himself with Margaret of Anjou, Queen consort of Henry VI. Margaret harboured suspicions about Warwick's motives, particularly since Anne's sister, Isabel, had by now married the reigning king's brother, George, Duke of Clarence. It is not certain that a formal marriage ceremony ever took place between Anne and Edward -- and, if so, whether their marriage was ever consummated -- but they were either married or formally betrothed (the legal equivalent of marriage) at the Chateau d'Amboise in France, probably on December 13, 1470.

The Earl of Warwick, who had been dispatched by Margaret to England to restore King Henry to the throne, succeeded in this task but was defeated and killed in battle a few months later. Anne arrived back in England with her new husband and mother-in-law to find herself fatherless. With the death of Edward at the Battle of Tewkesbury on May 4, 1471, Anne became a widow and the subject of some dispute between members of the House of York. There is a story that she was discovered by King Edward's younger brother, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, working as a servant in London. Whatever the truth, it is likely that Richard's desire to marry her arose out of a childhood affection, and that Clarence's desire to prevent such a marriage was motivated by his determination to be the sole heir to the Neville sisters' titles and properties (a large portion of which came to them from their mother, Anne Beauchamp).

[edit]


Duchess of Gloucester

The marriage of Anne Neville and Richard, Duke of Gloucester, took place on July 12, 1472, at Westminster Abbey, and they made their marital home in the familiar surroundings of Middleham Castle, Richard having been appointed Governor of the North on the king's behalf. They had only one child, Edward, born at Middleham in around 1473. Anne's health was never good, and she probably suffered from tuberculosis.

[edit]


Queen consort of England

On April 9, 1483, Edward IV died and succeeded by his elder son as Edward V of England. On June 25, 1483, Edward V and his siblings were declared illegitimate. Richard inherited the throne as King Richard III. Anne was crowned a Queen consort and her son was created Prince of Wales; however, Edward of Middleham died suddenly on April 9, 1484 at Sheriff Hutton, while his parents were absent. Following their bereavement, Anne effectively adopted her nephew, Edward, Earl of Warwick, and Richard made the boy his heir, probably in deference to her wishes.

Rumours that Richard planned to divorce Anne and marry his niece, Elizabeth of York, arose after the death of their son and heir, but there is little evidence for this and none at all for the later rumour that he had poisoned her. Anne died, probably of tuberculosis, on March 16, 1485, at Westminster, where she was buried. There was no memorial to her until the late 20th century, when one was established by the Richard III Society

Elspeth 09-11-2005 01:55 AM

Well, for all the bad things you hear about Richard III, it's nice that he married Anne as a result of a childhood friendship rather than just because of what she represented.

Of course, there have been rumours that he murdered her so he could marry Elizabeth, but I suppose that's to be expected since he's been portrayed over the years as the embodiment of evil.

tiaraprin 09-11-2005 01:12 PM

Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales, Son of Anne Neville
 
To follow up the article I posted on Anne Neville, here is the all too brief life of her only child Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales:

https://www.absoluteastronomy.com/enc..._Middleham.htm

Edward of Middleham, also known as Edward Plantagenet (1473 - April 9 1484) was the only son of Richard III of England and his wife Anne Neville.

The exact year of Edward's birth is uncertain, but he is known to have been born at Middleham Castle, a former possession of his maternal grandfather, Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick. In 1478, following the execution of for more George, Duke of Clarence for treason the title Earl of Salisbury was granted to Edward until his death. The title then became extinct until restored to Clarence's family during the reign of King Henry VII.

Edward was also invested as Prince of Wales following his father's succession as king of England in 1483. The investiture ceremony took place at York Minster, and contemporary records suggest it was arranged in a hurry. It is thought possible that the boy had been unable to travel to London for his parents' coronation because of ill-health, but that his condition had improved by the time they reached the north of England.

Edward's sudden death left his father without an heir, leaving the way open for Henry Tudor to take the throne at the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485. Edward is buried in the parish church at Sheriff Hutton, another of his family's estates.

Elspeth 09-11-2005 01:58 PM

There are so many "what if's," aren't there? If Edward IV hadn't died while his son was still a minor, if Edward of Middleham hadn't died and left the Yorkists without a direct heir, if Edward Prince of Wales hadn't died and left the Lancastrians without a direct heir - who knows what we'd be learning in our history lessons now.

Elspeth 09-11-2005 01:59 PM

And why they all have to be called Edward is just another of those cosmic mysteries. You'd think it'd have occurred to them that people were going to have to learn about them in history lessons, and it'd have been nice to see a few other names in play.

Elspeth 09-14-2005 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowabelle
I'm a descendant of one of the knights who murdered Thomas a Becket.

(Not a good move in terms of your eternal salvation if you go about murdering future saints.)

Congratulations!

Which one?

iowabelle 09-14-2005 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
Congratulations!

Which one?

William de Tracy. He must have been a brute. Edward Grim, one of Becket's attendants, wrote:

The wicked knight (William de Tracy), fearing that the Archbishop would be rescued by the people in the nave... wounded this lamb who was sacrificed to God... cutting off the top of the head... by the same blow he wounded the arm of him that tell this story. For he, when the other monks and clerks fled, stuck close to the Archbishop...

Allegedly, Tracy was overcome with guilt (as he should have been) and tossed away his sword. And there was a curse that the family line would come to an end (and apparently the direct male line did die out in the 17th/18th centuries - a long time to wait for revenge!). I have also read on the internet about a ghost too.

William may have been an illegitimate grandchild of Henry I.

And what does that make me? A poor member of the Royal Forums!

tiaraprin 09-14-2005 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
She must have been one of the great characters of the Wars of the Roses. I've read several times that the role of Margaret is one of the most prized roles for women in any of the Shakespeare history plays, which are almost exclusively masculine.

I wonder what on earth her son would have turned out like, had he lived longer - with a father who was mostly off in another universe a lot of the time and a mother as forceful as Margaret, he would have been a psychologist's dream patient!


Margaret of Anjou was unusual for her time. Strong, outspoken women were not at all prevalent. She was the complete antithesis of her husband Henry VI. Henry was mentally unbalanced and weak. Margaret was strong, cunning, and prepared to fight for the birthright of her husband and her son. This woman even made peace with a former enemy, the Earl of Warwick (father of Anne Neville who I have posted information about) in order to fight for her husband's rights over Edward IV. The Earl of Warwick was widely known as the "Kingmaker". He was the most powerful nobleman in England at this time and his support meant you would win the battle. Warwick became disenchanted with Edward IV and decided to throw his lot in with Margaret of Anjou. He betrothed his daughter to Margaret's son, Edward, Prince of Wales.

The Earl of Warwick and Margaret lost. The Earl was killed and so was Edward, Prince of Wales. Anne Neville lost her father and her husband in one stroke. Margaret lost her husband, son, and any hope of being Queen Consort of England ever again.

Elspeth 09-14-2005 07:15 PM

There are some women who would have been so much better off if they'd lived now!

It must have been terribly hard for her to be married to such an otherworldly - I don't want to call Henry a weakling, but it's a bit hard not to - especially when she had a son to protect and when there were charismatic people like Edward of York waiting in the wings.

This to my mind has always been one of the problems of a monarchy where the king ruled rather than reigning and where women were so marginalised. You only needed someone like Edward II or Henry VI, or a minor like Richard II or Edward V, and you had real trouble. Predatory and powerful nobles would come out of the woodwork, and there was very little that a king's wife or mother could do to defuse things.

Elspeth 09-14-2005 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowabelle
William de Tracy. He must have been a brute.

Pretty much went with the territory back then.


Quote:

Allegedly, Tracy was overcome with guilt (as he should have been) and tossed away his sword. And there was a curse that the family line would come to an end (and apparently the direct male line did die out in the 17th/18th centuries - a long time to wait for revenge!). I have also read on the internet about a ghost too.


Do you know whose curse it was? Surely Becket didn't curse the knights while he was dying, did he?

Quote:

William may have been an illegitimate grandchild of Henry I.


No surprise there, then. Weren't most of them related to the royal family like that?

Quote:

And what does that make me? A poor member of the Royal Forums!
That's a lot better than being a brute with a curse, though, even if it's less exciting.:)

iowabelle 09-14-2005 08:39 PM

I think William was an exceptionally nasty knight. (And he must have been one of king's toadies IMO.)

I don't know who uttered the curse. Apparently Becket said something to the effect that he was ready to go to God.

I'm not sure how many of the inner circle were royal illegitimates or their descendants, I'm sure, though, most of them were Normans and had probably been a close brotherhood since childhood.

Could I be a member of the Royal Forums and not be poor? That would be the best!

Elspeth 09-14-2005 09:09 PM

So this is the guy?

https://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....66/f726616.htm

Means you're related to both Prince William and Winston Churchill. Doesn't that make up for being poor? ;)

iowabelle 09-15-2005 12:40 AM

That's him.

And Madonna (the singer, not the Virgin) and the Duchess of Cornwall, and Crown Princess Pavlos and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Still poor. :mad:

tiaraprin 09-18-2005 01:34 AM

Philippa of Hainault, Queen Consort to Edward III of England
 
In my ongoing effort to discuss the Plantagenet line, I bring another member of the line for everyone to read about and discuss.

Philippa of Hainault is the only Queen of England to come from what is today Belgium. She was a truly remarkable lady who loved her husband and was the mother of Edward, The Black Prince of fabled legend. It is in hers and Edward's many children that the scene was set for The Wars of the Roses, albeit neither Philippa or her husband knew this was going to be one of their legacies.

I hope reading this snippet will encourage you to learn more about a remarkable lady and Queen.

https://www.aritek.com/hartgen/htm/d...nes.htm#name606

. Queen Philippa of Hainault was born about 1314, lived in Mons,Hainaut,Belgium and died on 14 Aug 1369 in Windsor Castle,Windsor,Berkshire,England .
Queen Philippa married King Edward III of England on 24 Jan 1327 in York, England. King Edward was born on 13 Nov 1312 in Windsor Castle,Windsor,Berkshire,England. He was the son of King Edward II of England and Queen Isabella of France. He died on 21 Jun 1377 in Sheen Palace,Surrey,England .

Queen Philippa - Philippa is remembered by history as a tender-hearted woman, who interceded with her husband and persuaded him to spare the lives of the six burghers of Calais, whom he had planned to execute as an example to the townspeople.

Michael Packe in his book King Edward III gives us a delightful description of the king and queen's first meeting:

"He spied on the unwitting sisters, and pounced on the youngest of them, Philippa by name', at the time eight years old and nearest in age to Edward, who was nearly seven years. He had then subjected her to a minute and terrifying scrutiny. Apart from some criticism of her remaining baby teeth (they were 'not so white', he had found little fault with her solid physiognomy. Her hair betwixt blue-black and brown and not uncomely', her forehead large; her eyes blackish brown and deep, her nose though 'somewhat broad at the tip and also flattened', was 'yet no snub-nose'; her mouth was wide and generous, her ears and chin were 'comely enough', her mouth was wide and generous, she was of middle height for her age, well taught, and of 'fair carriage'.

'Her neck, shoulders, and all her body and lower limbs are reasonably well shapen; all her limbs are well set and unmaimed; and nought is amiss so far as a man may see. Moreover, she is brown of skin all over, and much like her father; and in all things she is pleasant enough to look at it seems to us.'

The Flemish master, Jean de Leige, worked in France and he influenced the English sculpture. Among his most important and representative tomb monuments is that of the queen of England, made in London in 1367. It can be seen, still in an excellent state of preservation, in the choir of the Westminster Abbey. It shows the recumbent figure of Philippa of Hainaut, wife of Edward Iii, who died in 1369. Her features as represented on the tomb give the impression of an individual likeness. The rather pudgy face with its thick neck and double chins suggests a basis in a life-mask.


https://www.aritek.com/hartgen/images...ainault_sm.jpg

from "Queens of England" -1894 - provided by Cindy Jackola.

https://www.aritek.com/hartgen/images...y/philippa.jpg
Westminster Abbey, London

tiaraprin 09-25-2005 04:40 PM

Edward III, The Man With Too Many Legitimate Sons. . .
 
Edward III, one of England's longest ruling Kings, was a successful monarch with a beautiful consort and many children. Those many children, however, would cause the monarchy much trouble for the next few generations to come:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_III_of_England

Edward III (13 November 131221 June 1377) was one of the most successful English kings of medieval times. His fifty-year reign began when his father Edward II of England was deposed on 25 January 1327, and lasted until 1377. Among his immediate predecessors, only Henry III ruled as long, and it would be over 400 years before another monarch would occupy the throne for that duration. Edward's reign was marked by an expansion of English territory through wars in Scotland and France. Edward's parentage and his prodigious offspring provided the basis for two lengthy and significant events in British and European history, the Hundred Years' War and the Wars of the Roses, respectively.


Poster's note: It was Edward III who founded the Order of the Garter in 1348. The oft told fable story of its founding goes like this:

Edward was dancing with his future daughter-in-law, Joan of Kent. Ladies' Garters in those days were tied around their leg. Joan's garter loosened and fell to the floor while she danced with the King. Everyone laughed at her embarassment and disgrace. At this point, Edward tied the Garter to his leg and said "Honi soit qui mal y pense"--Evil to him that thinks evil of this. Some say the lady in question was actually Joan's first mother-in-law. I guess we will never know the entire story.

Elspeth 09-25-2005 06:29 PM

He certainly outlived himself; it's a shame that his eldest son predeceased him and that there was such infighting among his other sons and their descendants.

tiaraprin 09-25-2005 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
He certainly outlived himself; it's a shame that his eldest son predeceased him and that there was such infighting among his other sons and their descendants.

I believe England would have taken a better turn if the Black Prince hadn't died. Perhaps he could have taken Richard II in hand and teach him to be a proper monarch before passing the crown to him. It is another one of those great Royal "What if's".

The Black Prince's wife, Joan (aka The Fair Maid of Kent), was in no position to educate her young son. She lost her husband and elder son in such a short period. She had no one to advise and help her do what was best for Richard. Edward III didn't step in. He was old and increasingly feeble at this time having lost his wife, his eldest son (the Black Prince), and elder grandson who was the heir apparent (eldest son to the Black Prince). He was also enamoured of a greedy mistress, Alice Perrers. She only wanted power and money. When Edward III died in 1377, she pried the gold rings from his hands before she left with the rest of her accumulated fortune.

tiaraprin 10-20-2005 09:44 PM

Edward, the Black Prince
 
If the Black Prince hadn't died, perhaps there would not have been the War of the Roses:
Edward the Black Prince (1330-1376)

Born: 15th June 1330 at Woodstock, Oxfordshire
Prince of Wales
Died: 8th June 1376 at Westminster Palace, Middlesex

Prince Edward, the eldest son of King Edward III and Queen Philippa of Hainault, was born at the Royal Palace of Woodstock in Oxfordshire, on the 15th June 1330. In his third year, he was created Earl of Chester; four years afterwards Duke of Cornwall; and, in 1343, Prince of Wales.

At the institution of the Order of the Garter, Prince Edward had not completed his fourteenth year; and, although included amongst the Founders, in accordance with the design of his royal father that the eldest son of the Sovereign should be always a constituent ember of the Order, the honour of knighthood was reserved for the moment when he should be armed and thereby qualified to enter upon his warlike course. This occasion presented itself when, accompanying the King on his memorable expedition against France, he landed at La Hogue on the 12th July 1346.....

At the Battle of Crécy, which was fought on the 26th August following, King Edward, desirous that his noble son should "win his spurs," gave him the command of the van, with the counsel and assistance of the Earl of Warwick and Sir John Chandos. The tradition near the spot is, that the King had ordered the Prince to wear, on that day, a black cuirass, richly ornamented; and that, from this incident, he retained the surname attributed to him in history. The defeat of the enemy is known to have been complete; and the delighted father, embracing his son on the field of victory, eulogised his valour and pronounced him worthy of empire......


https://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/blackprince.html

Warren 11-02-2005 10:34 AM

For Australian Members
 
For Australian Members...


Tonight - Thursday 3 November - ABC TV at 8.30pm

Fact or Fiction: RICHARD III

Blurb: "... gets to the bottom of the legend of Richard III"

Elspeth 11-02-2005 01:59 PM

Fact or fiction? They surely aren't trying to say he might be fictional are they? Don't they know Shakespeare wrote a play about him? That means he must be real - just like Romeo and Hamlet...

tiaraprin 11-02-2005 04:07 PM

For more information on Richard III. . .
 
If one refers back to posts 22-28 and posts 53-55 of this thread, one will find out more information about the real Richard III and those of his family, namely his wife and only child. One will also discover why many people say fact or fiction in relation to him. There is also the website for the Richard III society https://www.richardiii.net/ which defends Richard from the accusations that have been lain at his feet for centuries, i.e. the murder of the Princes in the Tower, sons of Edward IV (his nephews though he disputed their legitimacy from his brother to take the Crown).

Here are some facts from https://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page50.asp

RICHARD III (r. 1483-1485)

Richard III usurped the throne from the young Edward V, who disappeared with his younger brother while under their ambitious uncle's supposed protection.
On becoming king, Richard attempted genuine reconciliation with the Yorkists by showing consideration to Lancastrians purged from office by Edward IV, and moved Henry VI's body to St George's Chapel at Windsor. The first laws written entirely in English were passed during his reign. In 1484, Richard's only legitimate son Edward predeceased him.

Before becoming king, Richard had had a strong power base in the north, and his reliance on northerners during his reign was to increase resentment in the south. Richard concluded a truce with Scotland to reduce his commitments in the north. Nevertheless, resentment against Richard grew.

On 7 August 1485, Henry Tudor (a direct descendant through his mother Margaret Beaufort, of John of Gaunt, one of Edward III's younger sons) landed at Milford Haven in Wales to claim the throne.

On 22 August, in a two-hour battle at Bosworth, Henry's forces (assisted by Lord Stanley's private army of around 7,000 which was deliberately posted so that he could join the winning side) defeated Richard's larger army and Richard was killed. Buried without a monument in Leicester, Richard's bones were scattered during the English Reformation.




Other links:

Richard III Foundation: Supports historical scholarship on Richard III
https://www.richard111.com/



Sir Thomas More's writings about Richard III and the allegations made:
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~rbear/r3.html

tiaraprin 11-04-2005 09:05 PM

Did anyone in Australia watch the show about Richard III?? I am curious for what was said!!

Warren 11-05-2005 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Did anyone in Australia watch the show about Richard III?? I am curious for what was said!!

Yes, it was better than expected.
The first half gave us a rundown of what is known about the character of Richard Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester. He was an educated and learned man who bought books to read, not to collect. He was charming, smart, clever, and had a keen appreciation of the consequences of a misplaced lust for power. The program had Art Historians who showed how the official portraits of Richard III had been altered to give the now well-known hump, and how his face and chin had been altered to make them more angular and sinister. They produced a portrait which the Tudors had not found which showed the "real" Richard as Duke of Gloucester: no hump, no sinister look. So at this stage I thought they were setting it up for an anti-Richard Tudor conspiracy.

However... following the death of Edward IV, the accession of the boy-King Edward V, and Richard's becoming Lord Protector, his character changed. No more Mr Nice Guy, instead, a ruthless and hungry power-seeker. He lured the boys' tutor to a convivial meeting, left the room, and when he returned he was followed by soldiers who seized the tutor and beheaded him within hours. The die was cast, the pattern set.

The program then examined the possible motives of those who may have had something to gain from Edward V and his younger brothers' deaths (eg Margaret Beaufort, Henry Tudor, and others). Based on original documents, logic, location, ability to access the Princes in the Tower, and timing, there was only one conclusion: Richard had his two young nephews, one of whom was the righful King of England, murdered. Richard III was revealed as a nasty piece of work, and evil.
.

tiaraprin 11-05-2005 11:51 AM

That sounds like quite an interesting show Warren. I wish I could see it for myself.

Ithil 03-11-2008 03:33 AM

I'm very ambivalent about all the Yorkists and Lancastrians in general because I'm a fan of Margaret of Anjou, HATE Elizabeth Woodville, pity Anne Neville, am fascinated with the Earl of Warwick the "Kingmaker", and am NOT a fan of the early rulers of the Tudor Dynasty who made their claim from the Lancastrian side.

Based on all this stuff though about Richard III, I'm ambivalent about him too. It's basically fact that he murdered his nephews, but I can't help but think that he was vilified by his enemies, the Tudors and many traitorous people of the old Yorkist party.

Polly 03-19-2008 06:28 AM

Ithil,

I agree with you insofar as Richard III was vilified by his enemies. I do not agree that he murdered his little nephews.

I've mentioned before that much of the world's opinion is based on Shakespeare's play, and we know that Shakespeare was writing for the Tudor and early Stuart court, i.e. there was a political-interest component to the play.

Ithil 03-23-2008 03:50 PM

Well, the part about him murdering his nephews is one of the great mysteries in English history. People just have different views. I think that he murdered his nephews, but he might have had a good reason, or what was considered one in those days. I still sympathize with him because he has been treated the worst, I think, than all the past monarchs of England put together. I have heard about how the majority of people base their opinion on Shakespeare's Richard III.

PssMarie-Elisabeth 04-28-2008 11:51 AM

1 Attachment(s)
margaret of anjou, wife of Henry VI

Menarue 05-19-2008 02:56 PM

There are many descendants of John of Gaunt in Portugal because his daughter Phillippa (Filipa) married King John I of Portugal, one of their sons was Henry the Navigator. The descendants have kept on the name of Lancaster which they now spell as Lencastre, Lancastre or Alencastre.
From Portuguese history we learn that she was a very highly educated woman and made sure that her children had the very best education that was possible at that time.

PssMarie-Elisabeth 05-28-2008 04:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithil (Post 768117)
That's a nice pic of Margaret of Anjou.

Thanks ! Ithil ... here is another artist's depiction of Queen Margaret

Margaret of Anjou, Queen of Henry VI

HM Queen Catherine 06-05-2009 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin (Post 290921)
Edward III didn't step in. He was old and increasingly feeble at this time having lost his wife, his eldest son (the Black Prince), and elder grandson who was the heir apparent (eldest son to the Black Prince). He was also enamoured of a greedy mistress, Alice Perrers. She only wanted power and money. When Edward III died in 1377, she pried the gold rings from his hands before she left with the rest of her accumulated fortune.

Unfortunately, I think Alice Perrers is unjustly vilified in history. By all accounts, she was superbly intelligent, resourceful and gained great wealth through her own business acumen. She controlled over 56 manors around London, but only 15 of those were gifts from the King.

She was deprived of all her estates after Edward's death, and banished from England in 1377. She was eventually able to return, however, and gained back some of her lands.

Not saying she wasn't greedy, but her wealth, although facilitated by her relationship with the King, was mostly of her own making. She didn't wait around to have gifts bestowed upon her. She was an astute businesswoman in her own right.. Quite a feat for a woman in the 14th century.

Lady Meg 07-31-2010 02:22 AM

Philippa of Hainault, a black Queen?
 
I was looking for some pictures of Philippa to put on a web page for Catherine Parr's ancestry -- I came across a few pages saying that Philippa was a black-british Queen. That her son's name as 'the black' somehow shows that she was black. What are they talking about; black as in African American? As for as I know Philippa was of European descent coming from Hainault, the Avesnes dynasty, the Counts of Holland, etc... is there any truth behind this as people are referring to her as the 1st Black British Queen?

100 Great Black Britons - Queen Phillipa

HM Queen Catherine 08-01-2010 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Meg (Post 1118784)
I was looking for some pictures of Philippa to put on a web page for Catherine Parr's ancestry -- I came across a few pages saying that Philippa was a black-british Queen. That her son's name as 'the black' somehow shows that she was black. What are they talking about; black as in African American? As for as I know Philippa was of European descent coming from Hainault, the Avesnes dynasty, the Counts of Holland, etc... is there any truth behind this as people are referring to her as the 1st Black British Queen?

No truth whatsoever.

There is no extant evidence that any of Philippa's ancestors came from Africa or were of African descent. The House of Avesnes were descendants of the ruling family of Flanders in the female line. The male line is a little more obscure, but the earliest confirmed ancestor was Jacques d'Avesnes, and his wife Adelheid of Guise.

Philippa's maternal descent was through the French royal family. Her mother was Joanna de Valois, a granddaughter of Philippe III of France and Isabella of Aragon. Joanna's family can be traced extensively and exclusively in Europe.

If there were any chance at all that African blood somehow or somewhere entered into Philippa's ancestry, it would show itself in other members of her family.. not just her.. through facial features and skin tone. There is, however, no mention or comment of it as far as I can tell, in extant descriptions of other members of her family.. and certainly if any such ancestry existed, it would have been commented upon by other contemporary sources of the time.

In addition to this, Edward of Woodstock was never called the "Black Prince" during his own lifetime. The first mention of this sobriquet in writing comes from "Chronicle of England", by Richard Grafton. His chronicle was published in 1568, centuries after Edward died.

The description given of Philippa on the link you posted is not sourced either. It only says the information came from the Black Cultural Archives, which is an organization in the UK dedicated to preserving Black/ African culture and ancestry in that country. The BCA was only established in 1981.. hardly long enough, in my opinion, to have thoroughly researched documents as far back as the Plantagenet dynasty in search of African lineage. The BCA offers no archives on their website.

Any physical description of Philippa of Hainault, given during her lifetime, would probably have been written in Latin, and if any credence is to be given to the posted description, then the original Latin text should appear with the English transcription, along with a citation for the original document and the repository in which it kept.

No accredited historian or genealogist would accept such a claim without documented proof.

This website also makes the African claim for Queen Charlotte, wife of George III, which has already been thoroughly debunked by Medieval genealogists.

On the other hand, every human being on Earth can technically claim African descent, since Africa is the cradle of humanity.. all of our species, Homo sapiens, originated in Africa.

Osipi 08-01-2010 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine (Post 1119163)
No truth whatsoever.

Forgive me for stepping in here. I may be way off base. And yes... we are all somehow related to "Lucy" :smile:

We are dealing here with history that spans back to um.. before internet.. before television.. before well.. you get the picture.

Is it unreal to think that perhaps Black was more of a descriptive nature than alluding to race? For example.. we had Eric the Red.. and the Bonny Prince Charlie and Edward the Confessor.. if you get my drift. With familial names being used a lot within families,perhaps there was the Gold and the Black.. to differentiate between a blond and a brunette with the same name? Surnames were not a common thing. Most were known as John son (or ap in Welsh for example) of William. Williamson would be an example of one of the first surnames to be used and to this day Johnson is a very widely used surname still.

To research someone from that time period that was known as Black, I'd really doubt the allegation was made to her being of an african descent and black skined. Its possible though... anything is.

You hear also of the "dark" Irish with sooty eyes. What that means really is they have a darker complexion and dark hair with blue or green eyes with full dark lashes to kill for.

HM Queen Catherine 08-01-2010 12:40 PM

The question that was asked was whether or not there was any black (meaning African) descent for Philippa of Hainault, Queen Consort of England.

My answer was that there is not.. nor is there any evidence to support such a claim. Philippa was of European ancestry, which can be traced in her father's line to the early 12th century.. and in her mother's much earlier in time.

The link that was posted goes to a website that claims Philippa of Hainault had some sort of African lineage, based solely on a supposed contemporary description of her, for which no source citation is given.

However, one look at the website will make it obvious that the claim being made is that Philippa was somehow of African descent.

This website also claims African lineage for Queen Charlotte, wife of George III. Both claims are erroneous at best.. and blatant lies at worst.

I certainly wouldn't credit either claim.. and in Charlotte's case, the allegation has been disproved by reputable historians, who all regard this website with suspicion, since the authors have no obvious problem distorting facts to make their claims. In fact, it appears the site has not been updated since 2009.. it could now be a dead site. But they do let themselves off the hook with the following disclaimer - The content available is for general entertainment and interest only and its accuracy or completeness is not guaranteed. It is your responsibility to judge the accuracy or completeness of the content before relying on it in any way. So basically, they can make whatever claims they wish.. but that does not negate the fact that what they are claiming is false.

Philippa of Hainault was never known as Philippa the Black, either before or after her lifetime.. nor was her father. And her son Edward, now known to history as "the Black Prince", was Edward of Woodstock in his lifetime. He was not called the Black Prince until 1568.

I do understand what you mean, though, with regard to sobriquets being used before family names or surnames became the standard, but in this instance that was not what was meant.. :flowers:

Lady Meg 08-09-2010 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine (Post 1119163)
No truth whatsoever.

Wow -- I didn't realize they had debunked Queen Charlotte! With Philippa I know her back round, her genealogy, and it just mystified me as to where the African descent was coming from. It just surprised me because there are a few sites out there that have this information. It didn't make any sense and there is no way to contact them and tell them otherwise, unless I missed something that links to an email.

As for the 'black' prince... right.

I just thought this was a very strange 'theory' and thought people would be interested in debating, especially those who know where Philippa came from. ;)

As for us all linking back to Africa, don't believe in evolution.

Emeralds and Opals 08-18-2010 02:12 AM

BBC - Film to remember Battle of Crogen near Wrexham

"Battle of Crogen took place in 1165 near what is now known as Castle Mill in the Ceiriog Valley(Wales between King Henry II and the Welsh Princes)."

Cadiva 08-20-2010 07:08 PM

The debate over the fate of the Princes in the Tower is unlikely to ever be solved. However, as more historians re-examine the evidence available surrounding Richard III's reign, there have been a few subtle changes in the way he is perceived.

The argument that Elizabeth of York wouldn't have married Henry Tudor if he had been the murderer of her brothers is a pretty disingenuous one, she didn't have any rights whatsoever and wouldn't have had any say in her marriage. It's entirely possible that she was well aware he had removed them so that he could consolidate his position on the throne through marriage to her. Elizabeth of York had to be legitimate for Henry's argument that he was uniting both sides of the Plantagenet Dynasty. However, IF she was legitimate, so were the two Princes and that put him right up the proverbial creek.

If the argument that Elizabeth knew however, is allowed, then a similar argument must also be allowed to apply to Richard III - ie that Elizabeth Woodville, mother of the Princes, happily moved back to Court and appeared to have a cordial relationship with Richard and brought her remaining children out of Sanctuary. Would she have done this knowing Richard III had killed her two sons given the fact she could safely have remained under Westminster Abbey's protection indefinitely?

Then there is the argument for the Duke of Buckingham, himself a legitimate claimant of the throne. It certainly wasn't beyond the realms of possibility that Stafford could have become King despite his descent through the sons of younger daughters of Kings. The 1400s were a time of great upheaval not only politically but in terms of life expectancy due to health reasons. With Edward IV's two sons illegitimate and Richard III's only legitimate offspring Edward of Middleham a weak and unhealthy child, Buckingham's claim was greater than that of Henry Tudor in terms of primogeniture as when John of Gaunt's children were legitimised when he married Kathryn Swynford, they were disbarred from claiming the throne.

However, speculation is all we can do, history is written in the words of the victors ;)

Vasillisos Markos 08-20-2010 07:15 PM

Cadiva,

I think it is more likely that Henry VII killed the young princes. Read the discussion on this link.
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...a-25536-2.html

Cadiva 08-21-2010 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1126572)
Cadiva,

I think it is more likely that Henry VII killed the young princes. Read the discussion on this link.
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...a-25536-2.html

Thanks for that, will go read it :) My own personal viewpoint is that Edward V was more likely to have been murdered (or that he died of natural causes while in the Tower as he was being regularly visited by his doctor) but that Richard of York did escape and was brought up in secret away from the court. I don't believe, however, that he was Perkin Warbeck.
As to who was responsible for Edward's death, I'd like to drop Henry in the frame for it, but I think Buckingham has just as good a chance to do it, either on his own initiative or because he thought Richard would want it doing.
The only thing I do not believe is that Richard ordered it done specifically. It would have gone against everything he had previously lived his life by - his loyalty to his brother.

Katharine 10-06-2010 04:57 PM

Hi folks,

I have an opinion question about the Plantagenets. I've heard a couple of theories as to why Richard II lost his throne . . . what do you think?

Vasillisos Markos 10-07-2010 12:23 AM

Do you think he suffered from schizophrenia as some historians have thought? Or some other mental disorder?

Katharine 10-19-2010 01:44 PM

Hadn't heard that yet, actually. I think one of the factors was the fact that he got so much money that the nobility couldn't control him by cutting his allowance.

Lady Meg 11-03-2010 02:31 AM

Lady Joan Beaufort
 
Once again.. I have found on ancestry.com that someone was coming up with this delusional story that a certain person had been married to a 'royal' and had children. Can someone help me with this one? This lady basically threatened me and called me insane when I called her out on it. Did Joan Beaufort, daughter of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford marry a man with the last name Lawrence and have children?! Please tell me I am not the crazy one here as she already hurt my feelings by basically cussing me out and threatening me. The only reason I said anything was after finding a picture of Joanna 'the mad', sister of Katherine of Aragon attached to Katherine Swynford and being called Katherine Swynford on her page. I then looked into her genealogy and found that it was off... VERY off. I am pretty sure that Lady Joan only married and had children with two people, Sir Ralph Neville and a Robert Ferrers, correct? I have looked everywhere for this story that she married a surname of Lawrence and had issue and it is not recorded ANYWHERE! It's not even on wiki of all places!

Lady Meg 11-03-2010 02:59 AM

Re: Lady Joan Beaufort
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Meg (Post 1154903)
Once again.. I have found on ancestry.com that someone was coming up with this delusional story that a certain person had been married to a 'royal' and had children. Can someone help me with this one? This lady basically threatened me and called me insane when I called her out on it. Did Joan Beaufort, daughter of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford marry a man with the last name Lawrence and have children?! Please tell me I am not the crazy one here as she already hurt my feelings by basically cussing me out and threatening me. The only reason I said anything was after finding a picture of Joanna 'the mad', sister of Katherine of Aragon attached to Katherine Swynford and being called Katherine Swynford on her page. I then looked into her genealogy and found that it was off... VERY off. I am pretty sure that Lady Joan only married and had children with two people, Sir Ralph Neville and a Robert Ferrers, correct? I have looked everywhere for this story that she married a surname of Lawrence and had issue and it is not recorded ANYWHERE! It's not even on wiki of all places!

Nevermind, I found the answer to my own question after looking.. she was talking about a completely different Joan Beaufort(d.1518), the daughter of Sir Edmund, 1st Duke of Somerset and Elizabeth Beauchamp -- who did marry a Sir Robert Lawrence.. as I cannot see her tree now as she blocked me.. I gave her the link to realize her mistake.. I have no idea who she has after as children.. but found an entry in Burke as they did have children, but the Barony was passed up to brothers twice in the succession. I don't see anyone coming to America though.. unless someone knows something about this that I don't? I only know what I read in books and well documented articles. And she had the nerve to call me insane and threaten to call the cops, right.. I basically do this stuff for a living now. Thing is she had her under John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford -- with the dates in the 1300s.. so it was incorrect!

HM Queen Catherine 11-03-2010 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Meg (Post 1154905)
Nevermind, I found the answer to my own question after looking.. she was talking about a completely different Joan Beaufort(d.1518), the daughter of Sir Edmund, 1st Duke of Somerset and Elizabeth Beauchamp -- who did marry a Sir Robert Lawrence.. as I cannot see her tree now as she blocked me.. I gave her the link to realize her mistake.. I have no idea who she has after as children.. but found an entry in Burke as they did have children, but the Barony was passed up to brothers twice in the succession. I don't see anyone coming to America though.. unless someone knows something about this that I don't? I only know what I read in books and well documented articles. And she had the nerve to call me insane and threaten to call the cops, right.. I basically do this stuff for a living now. Thing is she had her under John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford -- with the dates in the 1300s.. so it was incorrect!

Joan Beaufort, 2nd daughter of the Duke of Somerset, married Robert St. Lawrence, 3rd Baron Howth, circa 1478. Their children were - Nicholas, 4th Baron Howth; Thomas; Walter; Christopher and daughters Genet and Anne.

Robert St. Lawrence died between 1483-1485, and Joan later married Sir Richard Fry.

The Barony of Howth was an Irish peerage, created for Robert's grandfather, Christopher St. Lawrence, in 1425. Robert's father was also Christopher St. Lawrence, 2nd Baron, who married Elizabeth Bermingham of Athenry. She was his mother.

Nicholas St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, was married 3 times and had children by each of his wives.

Carminha Stalker 11-03-2010 07:13 AM

The Plantagenets always fascinated me and this fascination started by reading a book about Katherine Swynford, who was the second wife of the great Duke of Lancaster. I fell in love, instantly, and was very pleased to know that one of the Duke of Lancaster´s daughters.`Philippa, was Queen of Portugal and ancestor to the great Hernry the Navigator.
I also admired a lot Henry V. What a life and what a man!


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