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Roderick 10-15-2009 05:55 PM

The story of Prince Alfred of Edinburgh fathering a daughter has never been verified and is thought to be false.

MarleneKoenig 11-03-2009 01:55 PM

The story is totally false, and concocted by Irene's son Frank Fitzgerald Bush. I wrote about in my book, Queen Victoria's Descendants and more recently in an article on young Affie for European History Journal.
Utter and absolute nonsense.


Originally Posted by blueblood1 (Post 1004885)
Hello; Yes I am a newbie and fiddling my way around here.
Does anyone have any Information on the daughter of Prince Alfred and Mabel FitzGerald, born at Carton House, 24, February 1899 or 1900?
Her name was Irene and born at Carton House in Maynooth(?).
I have read that Kind Edward entitled her the title of Lady, Irene Isabel Victoria Elizabeth Saxe Coburg Gotha. (I may not have all her names in the proper order.)
From what I have found she was sent to the U.S. (circa 1912) by her Mother (Mabel FitzGerlad) to Mabels American family and then married a commoner (Sept. 1914) in Upstate New York. Any information would be of much interest. Thank you.

Not thought to be false .. but False ... a total fabrication.

Originally Posted by Roderick (Post 1005327)
The story of Prince Alfred of Edinburgh fathering a daughter has never been verified and is thought to be false.

Lumutqueen 11-03-2009 04:02 PM

Alfred only had 6 children, and they were all with his wife. :smile:

1. Hereditary Prince Alfred (15 October 1874 - 6 February 1899)
2. Princess Marie (29 October 1875 - 18 July 1938) married, 10 January 1893, King Ferdinand I of Romania (1865–1927); had issue.
3. Princess Victoria Melita (25 November 1876 - 2 March 1936) married (1), 19 April 1894, Ernst Ludwig, Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine; had issue; divorced 21 December 1901
(2) 8 October 1905, the Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich of Russia; had issue.
4. Princess Alexandra (1 September 1878 - 16 April 1942) married, 20 April 1896, Prince Ernst of Hohenloe-Langenburg; had issue.
5. Stillborn son 13 October 1879
6. Princess Beatrice (20 April 1884 - 13 July 1966) married, 15 July 1909, Don Alfonso, Infante of Spain, 3rd Duke of Galliera; had issue.


Russophile 11-03-2009 05:14 PM

They should have let Baby Bee marry GDuke Michael. But! If wishes were horses, beggers would ride. . .

Vasillisos Markos 11-23-2009 10:40 PM

Marie's perceived snub by the Queen and other members of the Royal Family developed into a dislike of all things English. After Alfred was posted to Malta, does anyone have any information about how the Royal couple felt about that Mediterranean island and how they were treated by the Maltese?

Russophile 11-25-2009 01:46 AM

:previous:Queen Marie of Roumania's book says that she and the other children had a lovely time. Not so sure about what the parents thought. Don't forget, Marie (the mother) was a Grand Duchess and very senior in Russia but lower down on the totem pole in England and that rankled her quite badly. (This from Queen Marie of Roumania's Memoirs.)

EmpressRouge 11-25-2009 12:22 PM

Most definitely. She was the only surviving daughter, so was her father's favorite child and spoiled rotten.

tyler123 11-30-2009 09:25 PM

Lad Irene & Prince Alfred
In response to Marlene Koenigs reply to a post about Lady Irene FitzGerald and Prince Alfred.
My Grandmother was Lady, Irene FitzGerald-Bush. To say that this was concocted by her son Frank.S. FitzGerald-Bush is a bit brash. I lived with my Grandmother at the Family Estate Crom House in Miami, Florida. In the 50’s & 60’s when I was a teenager, and in the 70’s as a young adult Lord Louis Mountbatten had visited us many times, visiting his Cousin Lady Irene. I write this as my Uncle Frank passed away in 1999 and cannot defend himself against the postings here and elsewhere.
In 1980-81 Lady Iris Mountbatten from Toronto, Canada and her son Robin Alexander Bryan also lived with us in Miami.
I remember as a child reading letters from Princess Louise to my Grandmother, Lady Irene. My Grandmother also had received many items from members of the Royal Family, in particular two dolls (as being replicas of the Queen) from Queen Victoria, being more than 120 years of age now they do show the age even though we have attempted to maintain their condition as much as possible. The letters from Princess Louise were damaged in Hurricane Andrew-1992 when Crom House suffered severe Hurricane damage.
In the mid 70’s I lived in Ireland where I attended Trinity College, staying for a period of time with the Guinness family as Desmond has been a family friend, especially to Uncle Frank for more than sixty years. While I was in Ireland I had the honour of the company many times with Lord Louis “Dickie” Mountbatten. I returned to America just a month before Dickie was murdered on his boat. I also visited Carton House in Maynooth where my Grandmother was born. And, I was not treated as a tourist.
The Irish treated me with the utmost respect as they were aware of the Mabel FitzGerald and Prince Alfred issue.
There have been quite a number of Royals who attempted to marry outside the [Royal Marriage Acts of 1772] as did Prince Alfred and Mabel. Their (Alfred & Mabel) marriage was annulled. This does not mean that there was not a child brought into this life through their relationship.
Bee Jordan( a friend of Mr. Bush) & John Van der Kiste communicated with “Uncle Frank” while they were writing “Dearest Affie” in 1984 {page 165 notes the marriage of Alfred and Mabel and it being annulled} They also mentioned Frank S. FitzGerald-Bush in their page of Acknowledgments for the people who helped them in gathering information for the book.
As most of us know marriages outside of the Royal Marriage Acts are frowned upon by the Royals and dismantled.
Mabel FitzGerald had relatives in America and sent her daughter to live with them as during WWI her safety may have been compromised as being of the Saxe Coburg-Gotha name and its German heritage. {As King George changed the Battenburgs to Mountbatten}.
At my Grandmothers funeral Queen Elizabeth sent a four foot Wreath of Roses and a note of sympathy on Buckingham Palace Stationary, as well as flowers and sympathy note from King Juan Carlos of Spain.
It seems to me, and any prudent person that the Queen would most likely not be concerned of the passing of “a nobody”. The Queen also sent her sympathies on the Palace Letterhead when she was notified of the passing of Lady Irenes’ eldest son Mr. FitzGerald-Bush in 1999.
We are also aware that the Royals try to avoid any scandals. Lady Irene was real, and not Concocted... dig deep and you will find the truth. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

tyler123 11-30-2009 11:09 PM


Originally Posted by MarleneKoenig (Post 1014256)
Not thought to be false .. but False ... a total fabrication.

If it is a total fabrication. Can you show the proof of fabrication?

With all do respect where is your documentation of the fabrication? What did you write in your book that you state. The statement is a bit obscure....did you speak to Mr. Bush about his fabrication?

Zonk 11-30-2009 11:48 PM

I believe the Duchess's dislike for all things English extended to George V, who was in love with Marie of Edinburgh. Though Marie didn't fancy George, they did remain close cousins and good friends. I think George V would have bored Marie in later in life.

Just imagine how different history would have been in Marie was Queen Consort instead of Mary. Let's see...troublesome sons...which would you perfer...King Carol of Romania or Edward VIII of the United Kingdom. I am going to go with Edward VIII because you had George VI who understood the word duty.

Connie Cutmantle 12-01-2009 11:12 PM

Wow Tyler 123 what an absolutely fascinating account! Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to share your family memories with us! Nevertheless how did your grandmother come to use the style of Lady Irene? Such a title can only be carried by the legitimate daughter of a Duke, Marquess or Earl! Furthermore your grandfather was not a Peer, Knight or the son of a Duke or Marquess was he?

I do not know if you are aware....but Marlene is one of the foremost authors and experts on Queen Victoria's descendants. Her knowledge is encyclopaedic. I think that Marlene feels it is her duty to question all claims of descent from Queen be honest I have long admired Marlene as she has fearlessly 'outed' several claimants and pretenders over the years and is generally regarded with deep respect by many! Sometimes I feel like I am one of her acolytes....but to be honest......Marlene's methods are those of a qualified Historian who seeks factual evidence and primary sources in all instances such as this one involving a child born out of a liaison between Young Affie and Mabel Fitzgerald!

I know that Marlene hardly needs me to stick my oar in on her behalf....but I just felt impelled to add my opinion! Here is a link to an article that may have been authored by 'our' Marlene!

RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Descendants of Queen Victoria

Source 6 explains the story of Affie and Mabel's weddings etc!

Vasillisos Markos 12-01-2009 11:20 PM

The Duchess might not have liked George but his cousin Marie, although she got along with her mother the Duchess, probably would never have married him regardless of her mother's feelings, but Marie was very fond of George V and they remained good friends through the years.

And from what I've read, Marie, or Missy as she was known to the family, believed, like Queen Mary, that royal duty trumped personal desire. Queen Marie was very upset with her son's attitude towards throne and country and Carol ended up treating Marie badly in her dying days and was horrible towards his sisters.

tyler123 12-02-2009 02:19 AM

Connie, if I may call you Connie, you spelled encyclopedic wrong.
All I say here is of the utmost respect, as much as it can be... [just defending people who Marlene is saying are telling falsehoods.]
Well, I must assume that Marlene is the {god of all Royal History.} There are many Authors, American & European who write about the Royal Families of Europe. Since there are many Authors on this subject, I have not become aware of an official rating as to which one is "PERFECT" and Number "1".
Is she in the service of the British Royal Family? Are her books Authorized by the Royal Family? {She is an American it seems}.
As I said previously the deceased" cannot speak for themselves".
Lord Louis Mountbatten was my friend and confident for more than 25 years, since I was child, and, my relative. There was not a reason for him to manufacture to me his {and my} family history. And his Cousin Lady Iris either.
According to Marlene he, {Lord Mountbatten} must have been full of well as Bee Jordan and Mr. John Van der Kiste, also personally known to me, King Juan Carlos of Spain, and Desmond Guinness (who I do not want to bring him into this trife) a family friend for more than 60 years.
As I have only told the facts of my life as told to me by members of the Royal Families and their close confidents.
I am aware Marlene does not think much of the Mountbattens from other sources on this world wide web and persons I know.
The Queen acknowledged Lady Irene, this I know, I informed her of the passing of Lady Irene by telephone. I would properly think she would know more of her family than a host of Authors. Yes, I will admit you may not have found the papers that are said to not exist, but if look in the proper places they are there.
And, we all know the Royal family has always kept their misgivings under wrap, so to speak. If Lord Mountbatten were alive today this cloud of mystery could be cleared away and the truth would shine.
And, I have researched Marlene, Authors have opinoins which sometimes are misguided. I have found she has made quite a few persons place her number one on their list (not the good list).
The following is an excerpt from a letter that will be placed as well as the family line dating back to Royalty of the 16 Century on the web site
...In the case of Mabel FitzGerald, one must accept that her marriage to Prince Alfred was a valid one, since it was never in court ruled otherwise. The titles granted her by the Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, and the peerage granted to her by Queen Victoria, bestow legitimacy on both the marriage and it's issue. That Prince Alfred's widow refused to employ either the German titles or the British peerage given to her, preferring instead to style herself Countess of Ulster, while admirable in itself, is perhaps the cause of the uncertainty which subsequently arose as to her status and that of her child by Prince Alfred......As to the status of Prince Alfred's daughter and her proper style, she became, by letters patent issued by H.M. King Edward VII, in 1905, a Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, though she appears to never to have employed this style. The only published document in this matter remains that of H.M. King George V, the Royal Warrant granting to Prince Alfred's daughter "the style of Lady Irene FitzGerald, with precedence before the marchionesses of England."... Your Majesty could solve the problems of this lady's ambivalent status (which is ambivalent only in the public eye) by proclaiming her proper style to be
H.R. Princess Irene, Marchioness of Celbridge and Athy....That ill-natured gossip and unfortunate comments in the press have been encountered in this mater, as Your Majesty has suggested, fully within Your Majesty's power to set right, though I am reminded that the unfortunate results of such false reports are perhaps impossible to correct. "False statements like feathers, once scattered are not easily collected.".....
My Uncle Frank S. FizGerlad-Bush ( he acquired the surname FitzGerald as required by the FitzGerlad family as Irene's first son was to attached it to his surname) was a well respected Author, Historian,Lecturer, Teacher, a man of integrity who would not shame himself with an untruth no matter the harm to himself. This I Know to be fact As well as long time family friends.
I, being well respected in the Entertainment Industry(must retain my integrity) and being raised by my Royal Grandmother (no matter the issues raised here) was instilled as never to speak a falsehood, the "Truth is the proper means of Life."
I do apologize for being longwinded, but, these words I feel must defend, the Memory of Lord Mountbatten, Frank S. FitzGerald-Bush, Irene Victoria Alexandra Louise Isabel FitzGerlad.
By the way Mabel FitzGeralds' Father was Lord Charles FitzGerald, so there is a Royal title there...I gladly would like any & all comments you may have.
Thank You For Taking The Time To Read This Post.

tyler123 12-02-2009 03:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I found this article dated 1987 talking about the Descendants of Queen Victoria. I did not write the article, but the mistakes that were made shows the author was very careless with her research. Sorry but page 2 would not scan but it basically says she can't follow simple genealogical practice of listing first all sons and then all daughters and that the book was overpriced and her claims to perfection are wholly without foundation. Again these are not my words they were found in your book along with a letter written to my Uncle from you. I will post that tomorrow because it is late.

Connie Cutmantle 12-02-2009 04:22 AM

I posted encyclopaedic as it is as acceptable as encyclopedic according to the Oxford Dictionary! It is amazing that yet again the Fitzgerald dynasty is being drawn into another 'cloak and dagger' disinherited, identity changing/swapping intrigue! It was bad enough with the Duke consigned to a mental hospital/brothers fleeing to America to escape inheriting titles and so on! I don't mean to be rude....but unless you can provide hard evidence has to be a little skeptical!

The title of Lord Charles Fitzgerald does not denote a 'Royal' title as you denotes a gentleman of noble parentage....not Royal parentage! You say that Mabel's father was Lord Charles Fitzgerald by which I assume you are implying that this Lord Charles Fitzgerald was in fact the same man bearing that name Lord Charles Fitzgerald (1859 - 1928) a son of the 4th Duke and Duchess of Leinster! If this is indeed you claim I must point out that this real Lord Charles Fitzgerald did indeed have a daughter called Mabel but it is recorded that she was born in 1891!:ermm: Thus she can not be the mother of Irene Fitzgerald Bush can she?

:ermm:Perhaps I have discovered a real but wrong Lord Charles Fitzgerald who by some amazing coincidence also had a daughter called Mabel! I do wander which Lord Charles Fitzgerald you are referring too....I did scuttle off and checked my copy of G.E Cockayne's Compete Peerage too and could not find another Lord Charles Fitzgerald....could you enlighten us please?

To be honest with you tyler123 I am at a complete loss as to what you are trying to say with regards to your grandmother's status. With regards to marriage to Queen's Victoria's grandson Affie, the Queen would have had to grant her formal consent to marriage, which would have been passed in written form through a meeting of the Privy Council and would thus be published! If however Queen Victoria declined, Affie could have married and this marriage would have been null and void. However, Affie could have waited until his twenty fifth birthday and then declared his intentions to the Privy Council and after a year married. Therefore either way....Affie could not have contracted a marriage which permitted his wife or daughter to carry his British for his German titles......the stringent rules of morganatic marriage would have prevented Mabel or a child from rights to carry any titles other than those granted to them by the reigning Grand duke of Saxe Coburg and Gotha or some other German Sovereign.

As has been pointed out all styles, precedence and peerages are published in a gazette regularly in Britain. It appears that there are no records of an Irene being granted the style of Princess in 1905 nor in 1917 of an Irene Fitzgerald being given the style and precedence of a Lady with precedence before Marchionesses! Where are the gazetted declarations of these grants, why were they not published? I do hope that the Mods here will allow this fascinating conversation to continue.....maybe it should be moved to it's own special claimants thread!!!! I am finding it all rather enthralling!

tyler123 12-02-2009 05:03 AM

Do you have access to the gazette you speak of? Second your friend of perfection Marlene had written my Uncle in 1982 asking for information, and admitted in the letter that she was aware that Mable Fitzgerald was the mother of Lady Irene, and was born at Carton House in Ireland. My Uncle was a real genealogist and historian and was doing research before your friend even knew how to write. We will post the letter tomorrow. I have probably 30 boxes of papers to go through and what I have found so far is, proving to me that what my family said to me was true. Did you read the attachment above? About all the mistakes that were made in the book, Queen Victoria's Descendants. You should read it. Good talking to you have a good night, or good day I get confused with the time difference.

Warren 12-02-2009 10:19 AM

The Forums is not here to provide a platform for any person to lay out their claims of royal descent.

Over the years we have had more than our fair share of bogus claimants and royal relatives, the most recent being an alleged descendant of a Romanov Grand Duke just a month ago.

Members who wish to publicise or advance such claims should use another arena in which to do so by creating their own website or by publishing their own book.

TRF Administrator

Russophile 12-02-2009 08:46 PM


Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1025800)

And from what I've read, Marie, or Missy as she was known to the family, believed, like Queen Mary, that royal duty trumped personal desire. Queen Marie was very upset with her son's attitude towards throne and country and Carol ended up treating Marie badly in her dying days and was horrible towards his sisters.

Just a nit picky point here, you might want to clarify your Marie's. There was Grand Duchess Marie/Marie of Edinburgh, Empress Marie/Dagmar, Marie Nicholievna, Marie Pavlos, Marie Vladmiorovitch, Marie of Roumania. . .yeah. There were a lot of Marie's. . . :biggrin:

Vasillisos Markos 12-03-2009 12:19 AM

Sorry for the confusion, Russophile.


Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1025800)
The Duchess might not have liked George but his cousin Marie, although she got along with her mother the Duchess, probably would never have married him regardless of her mother's feelings, but Marie was very fond of George V and they remained good friends through the years.

Duchess refers to Marie, Duchess of Edinburgh and the mother of Queen Marie of Rumania.

And from what I've read, Marie, or Missy as she was known to the family, believed, like Queen Mary, that royal duty trumped personal desire. Queen Marie was very upset with her son's attitude towards throne and country and Carol ended up treating Marie badly in her dying days and was horrible towards his sisters.

The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh's daughter, Marie, was known as Missy to the family and grew up to become Queen of Rumania. Inasmuch as the Duchess of Edinburgh never was a crowned head of state, Queen Marie refers to the Duchess' eldest daughter. Again, sorry about the confusion.

Katrianna 12-03-2009 01:19 AM

Thank you Warren.

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