The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #21  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:32 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Well, to be honest...on the very odd occassion that someone in the netherlands thinks we should abolish the monarchy (usually triggered by a money spending issue), the argument "those germans" or "they aren't even really dutch" pops up now and then.
The dutch RF is indeed hardly "dutch", you'd be hard pressed to find a dutch royal with just dutch grandparents, but other than the "anti monarchists" it's never really an issue...

I find it hard to think of a family (among the prominent families of course) who is more "Dutch" than the Orange-Nassau, as the "founder" if you will of the dynasty (is also called the "father of the nation" (despite his direct descendants properly being now extinct). But, if you say so, then I accept it.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:38 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Well, to be honest...on the very odd occassion that someone in the netherlands thinks we should abolish the monarchy (usually triggered by a money spending issue), the argument "those germans" or "they aren't even really dutch" pops up now and then.
The dutch RF is indeed hardly "dutch", you'd be hard pressed to find a dutch royal with just dutch grandparents, but other than the "anti monarchists" it's never really an issue...
But -like in any royal family- it was more or less a no-no to marry a fellow "subject". In the Dutch royal family, before Pieter van Vollenhoven entered the royal scene, the last legal "Dutch-born" partner was Anna van Egmont, gravin van Buren in the 16th C.

The Swedes even had in their constitution that a successor could not marry a fellow compatriot without loosing their rights. There were plenty of royals who probably wanted to marry but were hindered.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-14-2017, 03:04 PM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 3,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I find it hard to think of a family (among the prominent families of course) who is more "Dutch" than the Orange-Nassau, as the "founder" if you will of the dynasty (is also called the "father of the nation" (despite his direct descendants properly being now extinct). But, if you say so, then I accept it.
As you mention him, another remark that occassionally pops up: the dutch national anthem stems from a medieval poem and starts with the line "Wilhelmus van Nassaue ben ik van duitschen bloed" which in modern times translates as "Wilhelmus of Nassaue, I am of german blood". At the time it was written the netherlands as they are now didn't exist and the border with the german territory was very thin (if at all existing), so there really wasn't a difference like in modern day dutch and german.

Because we still use this anthem (but don't know the history that well), but think of the lines in the modern way, we actually have a feeling that we sing about "german blood".
The dutch anthem was for that reason changed in WWII, but the alternative also had some unsavoury connotations, so it was changed back after the war...but the question "why do we sing about 'I am of german blood' in this day and age" does surface now and again
__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:04 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But -like in any royal family- it was more or less a no-no to marry a fellow "subject". In the Dutch royal family, before Pieter van Vollenhoven entered the royal scene, the last legal "Dutch-born" partner was Anna van Egmont, gravin van Buren in the 16th C.

The Swedes even had in their constitution that a successor could not marry a fellow compatriot without loosing their rights. There were plenty of royals who probably wanted to marry but were hindered.
The Swedish constitution originally stated that a prince of the royal house could not marry "a private mans daughter" but this was changed in 1938 to "a private Swedish mans daughter". The rule did not forbid marriages to Swedes only to Swedes who wasnt considered of equal rank to the Royal house.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:22 PM
loonytick's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posts: 755
You keep harping on what things mean "to Americans." You do realize I'm American, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Marco Rubio's parents were both born outside the United States. Nevertheless, no one questioned that Marco Rubio was American, and being first generation didn't prevent him from running for president.
That's about as far from the point as you can be. Rubio was born in the US. His parents are neither here nor there. I was comparing the US requirements to people who became heads of state despite never having even lived in the country in question, who were invited from afar in a request that boiled down to "hey, will you please move here and become our king? We're not happy with the options we have in-house and you look like an alright guy. Thanks!" IIRC, the first time Jean Bernadotte ever stepped on Swedish soil was when he moved there to take the throne (well, technically, to become their aging king's crown prince). He was invited by the Riksdag on the basis of his skill as a military leader and the kindness he'd shown to Swedish prisoners of war.

I happen to find that fascinating, precisely because I'm American. Even if you moved here as a child and have been a citizen your entire adult life, you aren't eligible to run for President unless you were born here. A naturalized citizen can be a governor, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, did, but the highest office is off limits if you're foreign born. So yes, Marco Rubio could run for President, but his parents never had that option.

You find this silly. Fine. It's not for you.

No one is saying the Bernadottes are less than or don't have a right to the throne. It's just interesting to see that, even if you look at generation after generation after generation of monarchs in this dynastic house and their partners, this century was the first time that someone in line to their their throne chose a spouse from their own country. Especially given that they started with the importation of a foreigner to the throne.

That's noteworthy because the first however many generations of the house were living in an era when (a) royal marriages were first and foremost political, (b) monarchs still had a degree of power, and (c) politicians tended to have some concern that a monarch with strong familial or cultural ties to another country might offer an unwise level of favor that country of origin in international disputes. That concern wasn't helped by the very small amount of contact royals used to have with their nations' people. Given that context, it's remarkable to me that the Bernadottes never felt the need to shore up their "Swedishness" by, for instance, marrying off one of the first Bernadotte heirs to a princess from the prior ruling house.

This discussion has lead me to read up a little more on the family, so I now know that Jean Bernadotte himself made a choice that probably made a very big difference in how accepted his family was by the Swedish people: when he decided to accept the offer of the throne, Bernadotte went to Napoleon to offer his resignation and ask to be emancipated from his French citizenship. Napoleon tried to make him promise never to take up arms against France. But Bernadotte refused to make that pledge, saying quite firmly that he was obliged to consider the needs of Swedish ahead of his own Frenchness or ties to Napoleon.

Bringing him in had been a Riksdag plan; the king didn't much like it. But Bernadotte won him over after he arrived in Sweden. He seems to have worked pretty hard to earn his status as an adopted Swede. He was running everything even before the old king died, and he was popular. In other words, he really did do the work to become seen as Swedish.

The lack of Swedish-born brides in the family tree could have been a sign that generations of the Bernadotte house holed up in their palaces and didn't care to mix with people from their country. It's nice to see that, in this case, it was actually a matter of them not needing to make that kind of political statement with a marriage because the founder of their line did a good job of making the Bernadottes Swedish in ways that mattered to the nation's people and politicians.

And that's why I like these conversations. Little questions like the one that started this send me off along rabbit trails of data, the details of which hint at a nation's political story and help me find interesting times in their history that are fun to learn about.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:36 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The Swedish constitution originally stated that a prince of the royal house could not marry "a private mans daughter" but this was changed in 1938 to "a private Swedish mans daughter". The rule did not forbid marriages to Swedes only to Swedes who wasnt considered of equal rank to the Royal house.
The only Swedes who were equal in rank to the Royal House were members of the Royal Houses themselves. So, as far as I understand it, in practice they couldn't marry any Swede other than their own cousins.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-15-2017, 07:00 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The only Swedes who were equal in rank to the Royal House were members of the Royal Houses themselves. So, as far as I understand it, in practice they couldn't marry any Swede other than their own cousins.
The constitution does speak of families "in equal status" to the royal family which I guess is why Mountbatten was deemed acceptable in the 20s but if Carl jr's marriage to a countess von Rosen (very, very posh) wasnt considered equal no other Swedish families would have been so yes youre right.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-15-2020, 10:15 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Posts: 58
To simplify things, here is a genealogy chart of Swedish Monarchs from 1523 onwards. Names are written as on coins of their reigns.
  • Gostavs
    • Ericus 14.
    • Iohannes 3.
      • Sigismundus
    • Carolus IX
      • Gustavus Adolf
        • Christina
      • Catharina (whose spouse is from the House of Palatinate-Zweibrücken)
        • Carolus Gustavus
          • Carolus XI
            • Carolus XII
            • Ulrica Eleonora and her spouse Fridericus
        • Christina Magdalena (whose spouse is the Margrave of Baden-Durlach)
          • Fridericus Magnus
            • Albertina Friderica (whose spouse is from the House of Holstein-Gottorp)
              • Adolphus Fridericus
                • Gustavus/Gustaf III
                  • Gustaf IV Adolph
                    • Sophie (whose spouse is the Grand Duke of Baden)
                      • Friedrich
                        • Victoria (married to Gustaf V)
                • Carl XIII
          • Johanna Elisabeth (whose spouse is the Margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach)
            • Dorothea Friderica (whose spouse is the Count of Hanau-Lichtenburg)
              • Charlotta (whose spouse is the Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt)
                • Georg Wilhelm
                  • Augusta Wilhelmine (whose spouse is later the King of Bavaria)
                    • Augusta (whose spouse is the Duke of Leuchtenburg)
                      • Josephine, m. to Oscar I, son of Carl XIV Johan
                        • Carl XV
                        • Oscar II
                          • Gustaf V (married to Victoria of Baden)
                            • Gustaf VI Adolf
                              • Gustaf Adolf
                                • Carl XVI Gustaf
                                  • Victoria
                                    • Estelle
So literally every Swedish King with the exception of Carl XIV Johan and Oscar I have Swedish ancestry.
__________________
~ Mikael ᛗᛁᚲᚨᛖᛚ ~
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:25 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: -, Antarctica
Posts: 1,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Marco Rubio's parents were both born outside the United States. Nevertheless, no one questioned that Marco Rubio was American, and being first generation didn't prevent him from running for president. The fact that people use hyphenated words like Irish-American or Cuban-American doesn't mean that they don't see themselves or are seen as Americans , but rather that they consider themselves Americans who also value and honor the culture of their ancestors who came from other countries.

Again, I insist on my point on why I called this discussion "silly", if not plainly racist. The opening question in this thread was if the Swedish royal family had "Swedish blood". To an American, the answer is obviously yes, not because Victoria of Baden descended from some 18th century Swedish king (which is the answer the OP probably expected), but rather because Carl XVI Gustaf's father, grandfather, great-grandfather and so on so forth all the way up to Charles XV were all born and raised in Sweden, and were therefore Swedish. To Americans, nationality is not a matter of "blood" that requires your ancestry in the country to be traced back five hundred years (not least, because 500 years ago, no Europeans or Africans lived in the Americas anyway !). Instead, it is a matter of place of birth and place of upbringing.

BTW, your point that , if one is not born in Dublin, he/she is not considered Irish may be true in Ireland (I don't know much about it), but it is certainly not true in other European countries. The Germans definitely considered ethnic Germans who were born and lived in the Czech Republic, or Poland, or Russia as "Germans", and actually that was one of the Nazi arguments for invading Eastern European countries. Even today, several European countries give out passports and citizenship to descendants of immigrants who left their country many generations ago, including members of my family, who have Italian citizenship even though only our great-grandfather was Italian.
One difference between the U.S. and Sweden is that there are few Americans who can trace their ancestors back to before 1492, and that means that most have foreign roots, and therefore it makes it easy for people to see themselves, and for others to see them as Americans, if they are born there. Sweden on the other hand have been more or less homogeneous until after the Second World War, the influx of new people before that were mostly from countries that were parts of the Swedish kingdom, or connected with it (Finland, Baltic states, Germany), and those new people who weren't from there came here because their skills were needed. Today there are a Swedish political party whose members/supporters sees anyone who doesn't have "pure Swedish ancestry" as not belonging here, and should be sent to their home countries, even if they and their parents/grandparents have been born here.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-06-2020, 11:23 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Today there are a Swedish political party whose members/supporters sees anyone who doesn't have "pure Swedish ancestry" as not belonging here, and should be sent to their home countries, even if they and their parents/grandparents have been born here.
I guess you're talking about the Nordic Resistance Movement. They do not belong to the parliament, they have less than 1000 members/supporters and are not a party but a banned terrorist group per a Finnish verdict. I also have great suspicions that they also aim to subvert the monarchy and usurp the State.
-
Let's keep them off TRF where monarchy should be the main focus.
__________________
~ Mikael ᛗᛁᚲᚨᛖᛚ ~
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-07-2020, 01:10 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: -, Antarctica
Posts: 1,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
I guess you're talking about the Nordic Resistance Movement. They do not belong to the parliament, they have less than 1000 members/supporters and are not a party but a banned terrorist group per a Finnish verdict. I also have great suspicions that they also aim to subvert the monarchy and usurp the State.
-
Let's keep them off TRF where monarchy should be the main focus.
No, I do not mean NRM, but a political party in the Swedish Parliament today, their elected politicians may have toned down their expressed opinions a bit, but not their grass-root supporters.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Family and Ancestry of Grand Duchess Maria Teresa gogm Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa 104 05-19-2020 04:03 PM
Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor BeatrixFan British Royals 136 01-12-2017 07:11 AM
What did the past the past and present royal share by ancestry Bowman Member Introductions 15 07-05-2014 02:18 PM
Tracing your ancestry American Royalty Member Introductions 4 12-28-2011 07:56 PM




Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abu dhabi american history anastasia 2020 armstrong-jones baby names british royal family buckingham palace canada carolin cht coronavirus cpr duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex earl of snowdon elizabeth ii emperor family tree general news thread george vi gradenigo haakon vii hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume history hochberg hypothetical monarchs interesting introduction jewellery jewelry jumma kids movie list of rulers maxima mountbatten names nepal nepalese royal family pless prince harry princess alexia (2005 -) princess chulabhorn princess dita princess elizabeth princess eugenie princess laurentien princess of orange queen louise queen maud resusci anne royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royalty of taiwan royal wedding russian court dress settings spain stuart thailand thai royal family videos von hofmannsthal wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:19 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×