Oldest Royal and Noble Families

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

The point if this thread was to discus lineage, plain and simple. Whose lineage could be traced furthest back.

If you are only interested in sperm contribution I am sure there are other threads. If not start one. Contrary to what some posters think, they don't have to take over every thread. If you aren't interested in lineage (which included both sides) choose another thread.

The popularity of sites like ancestry.com tells thet people are indeed interested in lineage, knowing where one comes from. And that extends to royals.

You only need to look up to the topic of the thread: "Oldest Royal and Noble families". Just these five words which form the very topic of this thread are twisted into: "Trace the lineage as far as possible".

Very interesting indeed but the five words in bold typo on top of this thread form another starter. Before I am again mauled on Trumpian way (I should leave etc.), I have an interesting question. How old is the noble family Armstrong-Jones, the branch of the Earls of Snowdon and Viscounts Linley?

What do you do now? Trace all male and female descendants of Antony Armstrong-Jones? Or state that the noble family Armstrong-Jones started with the elevation of the first Earl into the peerage?

[Lee-Z]

This seems like a good moment to quote the first post in this thread

Originally Posted by kcc

what royal/noble families have the oldest traceable ancesty.also is the massimo descent from an ancient roman general(maximus i believe) genuine.i find this fascinating so any info or input is much appreciated.

i forgot to mention that it does not matter wheather it is male or female line descent.

hi. let me start by saying that i have already asked this question in a different part of this forum,but recieved no reply. what royal/noble families have the oldest traceable lineage. also are the roman descents of the massimo, orsiniand antici-matei(sorry about the spelling)families genuine.thanks in advance.

[Rudolph]

What's the oldest royal house in Europe? Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

What house are older?

[Ish]

I think we're mixing up two different terms here - Royal House and Royal Family.

A Royal House is the male-line descendants of a common ancestor. A Royal Family is a bit broader and can (although not always) include female line descendants.

Consider Britain; the House of Hanover circa 1841 consisted of a number of members of the British Royal Family; including Ernest Augustus, King of Hanover, Prince Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex, Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge, Princess Mary, Duchess of Gloucester and Edinburgh, Princess Sophia, and Queen Victoria - all either children or grandchildren (in Victoria's case) of George III.

The British Royal Family at this time also included Albert, Prince Consort, Princess Victoria, and Albert Edward, Prince of Wales, who of course were of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

It was one Family, determined by both male and female lines, but two different houses, determined by just male lines. The current BRF is in a similar situation, with the Queen and her cousins belonging to one House and the DoE and his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren belonging to another. Sweden and the Netherlands are similar, Denmark has the Queen in one House, but her children and grandchildren in another, and Norway, Belgium, and Spain will all follow suit in the next generation as the heirs are female (or the heir's heir in Norway's case).

The BRF Family goes back to 1066, with the Norman Conquest. The House of Windsor goes back to 1901, with the start of the Reign of Edward VII, while the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha goes back to 1826. The House of Wettin (of which Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is a cadet branch) goes back to about 916-976.

Now, the House of Windsor as a cadet branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg goes back to 1948, when the DoE married the then Princess Elizabeth. The Greek branch of the House of Glucksburg goes back to 1845, when George I became King of Greece, but House of Glucksburg itself goes back to 1785. Making it even more complicated, the House of Glucksburg is a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg, which goes back to 1448.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

What's the oldest royal house in Europe? Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

What house are older?

The Capetians (Jean, Henri and Guillaume of Luxembourg as well Juan Carlos, Felipe and Leonor of Spain), the Guelphs (Elizabeth II as well Philippe and Elisabeth of Belgium) and the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburgs (Margrethe of Denmark, Harald, Haakon and Ingrid Elisabeth of Norway, Philip, Charles and George of the United Kingdom) have the oldest paternal traceable ancestry, if we exclude the possibility of baby-swaps and pregnancies attributed to the wong father.

The House of Nassau can trace itself to around 1000 as well but is extinct in the reigning monarchies and only has a German countess as last agnate. The same counts for the House of Grimaldi: extinct - but the current genealogical dynasty, De Chalencon de Polignac, is very old as well. The Liechtensteiners also can trace it to around 1000.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

What's the oldest royal house in Europe? Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

What house are older?

Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back much further than 1100. Assuming the old Anglo-Saxon genealogies are accurate (which... they likely aren't), he can trace his ancestry back to the first Anglo-Saxon kings of Wessex and even a few Roman Emperors. Acknowledging that the lines aren't entirely accurate, he can further trace his ancestry back to the Norse God Woden. He can also trace his lineage back to King Arthur, although that line is somewhat harder to track down.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Ish

Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back much further than 1100. Assuming the old Anglo-Saxon genealogies are accurate (which... they likely aren't), he can trace his ancestry back to the first Anglo-Saxon kings of Wessex and even a few Roman Emperors. Acknowledging that the lines aren't entirely accurate, he can further trace his ancestry back to the Norse God Woden. He can also trace his lineage back to King Arthur, although that line is somewhat harder to track down.

Wodan? Isn't that a mythological figure from Nordic sagas? The one-eyed God always accompagnied by two black ravens? I would like to see traceable proof that Wodan is a genealogical ancestor of William...

;-)

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Wodan? Isn't that a mythological figure from Nordic sagas? The one-eyed God always accompagnied by two black ravens? I would like to see traceable proof that Wodan is a genealogical ancestor of William...

;-)

That's the one!

I'm at work right now so I don't have the line handy, but I'll post it when I get home.

[Osipi]

There is also the past influence of some of Celtic nations which for a while had the ruling powers determined by the matriarchal line. How much this affected the families that we would be concerned about in this thread is beyond my range of knowledge but I thought it well worth mentioning.

Celtic Culture and Matriarchy

[Ish]

Thank you for the link, Osipi, it's definitely an interesting subject.

For the British Isles, the Celtic traditions may have influenced the old Welsh, Scottish, and Irish principalities/kingdoms, but not the English. The English may have continued to have Celtic genealogy post-Anglo-Saxon migration (from what I understand, new studies are showing that the Anglo-Saxon "conquest" was more of a cultural conquest than an actual full out displacement), but they didn't continue Celtic culture.

That said, there were some old Anglo-Saxon kingdoms that believed that mothers and wives enhanced men's claims to various titles; the women themselves couldn't inherit, but if there were 2 male claimants who were in other ways completely equal in their claim, but one had married the sister of the old king while the other had married someone unrelated, then the old king's brother-in-law had a much better claim.

I can't remember right now all the kingdoms that utilized this way of thinking, but I know Mercia did. Part of how the Wessex kings began to also rule Mercia (other than military dominance) was by marrying Mercian women.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

What's the oldest royal house in Europe?

While not strictly considered European Bagration dynasty is the oldest, while if we speak about strictly European it must be House of Capet (todays Bourbons,Bragancas etc.)

Originally Posted by Rudolph

Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

As a member of the House of Oldenburg, his first documented ancestor was Count Egilmar von Lerigau(born around 1040 and died in 1108).

Originally Posted by Rudolph

What house are older?

Do you mean to compare two Houses of Elizabeth II and Prince Philip?

Queen Elizabeth II belongs to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha dynasty which is collateral branch of the House of Wettin.

Prince Philip belongs to the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg dynasty which again is collateral branch of the House of Oldenburg.

First known ancestor of the House of Oldenburg was Count Egilmar von Lerigau(1040-1108), while first known ancestor of the House of Wettin was Count Dietrich von Hassegau(died in 976).

So, House of Wettin is older than House of Oldenburg.

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

You only need to look up to the topic of the thread: "Oldest Royal and Noble families". Just these five words which form the very topic of this thread are twisted into: "Trace the lineage as far as possible".

Very interesting indeed but the five words in bold typo on top of this thread form another starter. Before I am again mauled on Trumpian way (I should leave etc.), I have an interesting question. How old is the noble family Armstrong-Jones, the branch of the Earls of Snowdon and Viscounts Linley?

What do you do now? Trace all male and female descendants of Antony Armstrong-Jones? Or state that the noble family Armstrong-Jones started with the elevation of the first Earl into the peerage?

No, you have to look up the Original post. Which clearly defines the guidelines. No one but your incessant need to count sperm has twisted anything. The Originsl intention of this post was to trace lineage, both female and male. Not everyone believes only sperm counts, obviously the OP didn't.

For your sperm counting ways I guess we only trace the male line. But the purpose of this thread is lineage which means women to. See the difference, not everyone lives by your rules.

For your sperm obsession ways I tried to stick patrilineal but we can't get past his great grandfather. But on his mothers side, I was able to trace back until the 16th century to this German ancestor. It is the patrilineal line if Anne's three times patrilineal great grandmother. So two little female hiccups for you.
https://www.geni.com/people/Moses-Bi...00000157515096

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Marc23

Prince Philip belongs to the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg dynasty which again is collateral branch of the House of Oldenburg.

By this statement are you stating that Philip's relation to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is lesser or inferior to Elizabeth's even though both of them are great great grandchildren of Albert and Victoria?

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Wodan? Isn't that a mythological figure from Nordic sagas? The one-eyed God always accompagnied by two black ravens? I would like to see traceable proof that Wodan is a genealogical ancestor of William...

;-)

As promised, one of the lines:

1. Prince George of Cambridge
2. Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
3. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales
4. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
5. Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark
6. George I of Greece
7. Christian IX of Denmark
8. Friedrich Wilhelm of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
9. Friedrich Karl Ludwig of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
10. Karl Anton of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
11. Peter August of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
12. Frederick Louis of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
13. August Philip of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
14. Alexander of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
15. John II of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
16. Christian III of Denmark
17. Frederick I of Denmark
18. Christian I of Denmark
19. Dietrich of Oldenburg
20. Christian V of Oldenburg
21. Conrad I of Oldenburg
22. John II of Oldenburg
23. Hedwig von Oldenburg
24. Heinrich IV of Oldenburg in Wildeshausen
25. Burchard of Oldenburg in Wildeshausen
26. Heinrich II of Oldenburg in Wildeshausen
27. Salome van Gelre
28. Gerard II of Gerle
29. Gerard I of Gerle
30. Diederik of Wassenburg
31. Gerard II Hendrik Wassenburg of Hamaland
32. Gerard I of Wassenburg
33. Flemensis
34. Arnulf I of Flanders
35. Ælfthryth of Wessex
36. Alfred the Great
37. Æthelwulf of Wessex
38. Egbert of Wessex
39. Ealmund of Kent
40. Eafa
41. Eoppa
42. Ingild
43. Coenred
44. Ceoldwald
45. Cutha Cathwulf
46. Cuthwine of Wessex
47. Cealwin of Wessex
48. Cynric of Wessex
49. Cerdic of Wessex (first Wessex King)
50. Elsa
51. Elea
52. Gewis
53. Brond
54. Bældæg
55. Woden

I'm not sure if this is the most direct route, but it is the most senior line; up until John II of Oldenburg it's an all male line, and again from Alfred the Great up until Woden himself I believe it's also all male. How much it's verifiable before about Ealmund of Kent is a bit debatable.


Through different lines, he's actually a (reputed) ancestor of George of Cambridge through his Windsor ancestors, his Mountbatten ancestors, his Spencer and Roche ancestors, and his Middleton and Goldsmith ancestors. Gerard I of Gerle is a common ancestor for all 6 lines, Christian I of Denmark is a common ancestor for all of George's paternal lines, Christian III of Denmark is a common ancestor for the Windsor, Mountbatten, and Spencer lines, and Christian IX of Denmark is a common ancestor for both the Windsor and Mountbatten lines.

[Lee-Z]

Very cool

[Stefan]

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