Line of Succession to the British Throne

[David Lewis]

As some of you will know over the winter months I had been researching the line of succession using Willaim Addams Rietweisner's 2001 list of people eligible to succeed as a guide.

Almost as soon as I had finished I learnt of William's death. I emailed his website and told them howsad I was at his passing and how valuable his work had been in helping me with my research. They asked If I had an updated list and if so they would be willing to publish it.

So I set about updating William's 2001 list from the information I had collected and trying to keep to his style. In March I emailed them an updated list (in HTML) so they could use if they wanted.

I am delighted to say that they have now published my efforts on their site.

The new list can be seen here www.wargs.com/essays/succession/2011.html

[dilsnub]

unable to open link... last i checked i was number 2279 lol... long shot

[David Lewis]

Originally Posted by dilsnub

unable to open link... last i checked i was number 2279 lol... long shot

link seems to work for me. Is anyone else having problems?

[Susanna Wynne]

No. I was able to get in. What an impressive body of work, David!!!

[Warren]

Wow, impressive indeed!
Congratulations David

ETA.. one query.. Princess Margarita of Romania and sisters etc fill places 4157 - 4166 based on descent through their mother Queen Anne, née Bourbon-Parma. I would have expected to find them after the last of the Norwegians (exhausting the descendants of Edward VII) and moving back to the descendants of Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh, thus Queen Marie > King Carol > King Michael > Princess Margarita. I see that you have King Carol's marriages after Zizo Lambrino as "bigamous", thereby making poor King Michael illegitimate and his late mother, Queen Mother Helen, well, I don't know what!

This treatment seems quite novel; is this new take on King Carol's marriage - or non-marriage - to Princess Elena generally accepted amongst royal genealogists?

[PrincessKaimi]

Amazing, David. Congratulations on your hard work and its publication. It's fascinating. I was particularly interested to see how far down the list the names of Anjou and Orleans are, and just how many of those names appear to be from continental Europe (everything from Yugoslavian to Russian and of course, lots of German names). But Italians, too. Was surprised to see how far down the list GD of Luxembourg is - but he is, after all, still on the list.

[cmbruno]

Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi

Amazing, David. Congratulations on your hard work and its publication. It's fascinating. I was particularly interested to see how far down the list the names of Anjou and Orleans are, and just how many of those names appear to be from continental Europe (everything from Yugoslavian to Russian and of course, lots of German names). But Italians, too. Was surprised to see how far down the list GD of Luxembourg is - but he is, after all, still on the list.

Spaniards are there too, even half Brazilians!

[Warren]

The King of Spain is a direct descendant of Queen Victoria - her granddaughter Victoria Eugenie (Ena) married the King's grandfather King Alfonso - so the current Spanish Royal Family features relatively high on the list. Although of course as Roman Catholics they are disbarred from the British Crown by the Act of Settlement and normally wouldn't appear on a list of Succession.

The sons of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (Serbia) appear quite high up the list due to Alexander's grandfather marrying a daughter of Queen Marie of Romania. Queen Marie was born a British Princess and was also a granddaughter of Queen Victoria.

To tie up any loose ends, both Queen Sophia of Spain and CP Alexander's mother Queen Alexandra were born Princesses of Greece and are descendants of Queen Victoria through her eldest daughter Vicky (Kaiserin Friedrich). Queen Sophia is doubly so as she descends from Queen Victoria through both her mother and her father.

[Zonk]

But isn't the marriage of King Carol not considered legit because he didn't receive the necessary governmental approvals?
Thus making his marriage to Helen very much legitimate?

[Warren]

Carol's marriage to Zizi Lambrino was legitimate which was why it had to be annulled rather than it not being a legal union in the first place. They were married in September 1918 in Odessa, the marriage was annulled in Bucharest in January 1919 (but not published until April 1919) and the baby - registered as Mircea Lambrino - was born in January 1920. Because the marriage was legal and the gap between the publishing of the annulment and the birth of the child was less than 300 days, Mircea Lambrino, later HRH Prince Carol, was considered legitimate by a Romanian court in 2003.

The argument seems to be over the legality of the annulment, but I don't have details of that. On the surface it would appear to be an easy task for the King of Romania to obtain a legal annulment of the marriage of his wayward son. According to Hannah Pakula, Crown Prince Carol signed a document agreeing to the annulment and the marriage was legally annulled.

Since the annulment was critical to Carol's ability to later make a legal and suitable marriage, one would think that the Romanian [royal] Court would have ensured it stood up to scrutiny while the Greek [royal] Court would have made a few enquiries before allowing Princess Helen to enter into a marriage contract with the Crown Prince.

[David Lewis]

Thank you all for your kind comments.

King Michael of Romanias position is indeed interesting.

Wkipedia has the following to say about the legitimacy of his half brother Mircea Lambrino

He was first successful in his quest to prove his legitimacy in 1955 in a Portuguese court, which ruled that he was the legitimate first born son of King Carol II and allowed him to claim the surname Hohenzollern in place of Lambrino. The Portuguese ruling was subsequently confirmed by a Parisian court, which also awarded him rights of inheritance to his father's properties. No title (i.e. no "von" or "of" particle adjoined to the family name "Hohenzollern") or dynastic rights were awarded to Carol by any European court. Furthermore, he has never been recognized or referred to as prince by the Romanian Royal Family. These rulings have cast some doubt over the legitimacy of King Carol II's later marriages. In October 1995 a Romanian court ruled that he was the legitimate son of King Carol II.[6] His half brother King Michael appealed this ruling, but lost the case in an upper court of appeal in 1999. In March 2002 the Supreme Court of Romania ruled that there should be a retrial and in July 2002 a lower court ruled again in Carol's favour. King Michael again appealed and in January 2003 he again lost the appeal.[7] King Michael again appealed in December 2003 and is currently awaiting the result of the appeal regarding the original verdict.

Now in my view it matters not , per se, what view an overseas court would make about his legitimacy but rather how would a british court view his legitimacy. After all this is the line of succession to the British Throne

It is highly unlikely that a british court would ever have to make such a ruling but it is my personal view that they would say that Mircea was legitimate and also that King Carol's subsequent marriages were bigamous.

It is also the view that William took when compiling his 2001 list

[An Ard Ri]

Hello David Lewis

[nelle]

Amazing work. I did notice some or the Kent family still listed although I thought they would be taken off the lost due to marrying (Lord Nicholas Windsor) or converting to Roman Catholicism and two of the children baptized as Catholics (the children of Lord Nicholas)?

[dilsnub]

very nice... finally able to open... a lot of catholics on the list though... additional info;
jason cano #5385 aka jason cleveland married to Tatum Mclendon, daughter Kira gabrielle cleveland. Peter Cano #5386 aka Peter Clevano, daughter Mia Marie clevano and son porter clevano. Cynthia Wildman #5383 married Alan Conelly, Son A.J. Conelly.

[David Lewis]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Hello David Lewis

Hi There An Ard Ri. good to see a name I recognise

[David Lewis]

Originally Posted by dilsnub

very nice... finally able to open... a lot of catholics on the list though... additional info;
jason cano #5385 aka jason cleveland married to Tatum Mclendon, daughter Kira gabrielle cleveland. Peter Cano #5386 aka Peter Clevano, daughter Mia Marie clevano and son porter clevano. Cynthia Wildman #5383 married Alan Conelly, Son A.J. Conelly.

Many Many thanks for that information

It would be extremely useful to have some dates for marriages births.

As for the catholics in the list I have followed the reasoning of all William's previous lists. His view was along the lines of that the exclusion of catholics had never been tested in law therefore it was wrong to not list them.

On my own database I have recorded whether a family is catholic or not.

[dilsnub]

it is a very extensive list.... much more so than wikipedia... not a lot of dates in my memory... jason and tatum (wife and i) were married october 06... kira was born 10-10-08...

[Grandduchess24]

It begins with prince Charles of wales of course then so on and jumps to royal families related to King George III (Greece,Norway,Sweden,Russia,Romania,...)

[PrincessKaimi]

List is very confusing. There are no "jumps" however, in the list, it's very orderly and linear, following the rules of succession in place. (As far as I can tell).

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Grandduchess24

It begins with prince Charles of wales of course then so on and jumps to royal families related to King George III (Greece,Norway,Sweden,Russia,Romania,...)

Norway's direct descent comes via Edward VII's daughter, later Queen Maud; Greece, Sweden, Russia and Romania are placed where they are due to descent from Queen Victoria. Descent from George III in these cases is therefore irrelevant, and, as PrincessKaimi has pointed out, there are no "jumps".