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  #61  
Old 05-02-2021, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by valeas View Post
ethnicity discussion in 2021, seriously? No, please don't.
For royals themselves the house they come from is important nothing else.
The ethnicity discussion was started in April 2021. As far as I can tell, there was no response to this post:

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The House of Windsor is also of German origin (the British branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) as is also the royal House of Belgium. Philip belonged to the Greek branch of his house, which in turn descended from the Danish branch. It would be quite a stretch to call either one "German".
One may not call them German, as they reign in other lands outside Germany, but when a German dynasty reigns in Denmark or Greece and is for centuries intermarried almost exclusively with other German dynasties, what would you say about the ancestry of this person? Well, German one. And it's not a shame to acknowledge that. Out of Prince Philip's 128 nearest ancestors, only 3 didn't belong to a German dynasty.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
To make a comparison, the Bourbons are of French origin, but the Spanish Bourbons or the Italian Bourbons are not normally considered French.
I agree. But one thing is to be "considered" and the other is what it really is. They can consider themselves everything they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are of French origin who married only to other French or German dynasties. If I live for years in Nigeria I can consider myself Nigerian, but the fact is that I am not, no matter how much I like it.

One can easily say that King Felipe is Spanish as he is the King of Spain whose ancestors also reigned in Spain, but out of his 128 nearest ancestors there is not a trace of Spanish blood which would make him Spanish in real sense of word, just blood of the French dynasty who reigned in Spain and either married fellow Bourbons or Germans and Austrians...

What I wanted to say is that he can be Spanish as he is a Spanish citizen who reigns there, but saying that he is of Spanish ancestry just because his ancestors reigned there without a drop of Spanish blood is not reality.
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  #62  
Old 05-02-2021, 12:43 PM
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Oh, I think we can safely say that the the feeling of ethnicity is being reset every generation in the royal families.

As has been pointed out: Mary may be ethnically Scottish, but most likely felt Australian all her life until well into her marriage with Frederik, and no doubt (hopefully, because it would be sad if she had completely discarded her roots) still does to whatever extent.

It is, I think, amusing to see how fast an otherwise "old" national family can become "foreign."
Or how long time a royal family can remain "foreign", even when being a nationalistic symbol. The BRF.

As captain Blackadder retorted when faced with the argument that Queen Victoria was an example of something archetypically British: Daughter of a German, married to a German.

Currently I'd say the DRF is hands down the best example of how a "normal" royal family was put together ethnically up until a 100 years ago.
And for various reasons, I wholeheartedly support the tradition of at least the heir marrying a foreigner.
I think it made things so much easier for Mary, our Marie and Alexandra that they were foreigners. Even if that meant that they faced other challenges.
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  #63  
Old 05-02-2021, 12:44 PM
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This is a very interesting discussion. I don't necessarily agree that it's easy to say "that person is German by blood even though his ancestors have all lived in XXX for hundreds of years". And genetic/ancestry tests can through up some surprising results anyway.

Despite his generic make up and various possible cultural influences Christian will eventually reign as a Dane, not as a foreigner.

Just as Felipe (and his ancestors) reign as native Spaniards, just as George V had to make sure the House of Windsor was 100% British despite technically being Saxe-Coberg und Gotha and that's continued and been a success for the most part, except for when people want to grumble. Just as the Bernadottes reign as Swedes despite the founding of their throne only 200 years ago. They all reign by, for, of and from the people in their country. Although like I said, grumbling does happen.

This isn't a new debate, I remember talking about the Ptolemies ruling as Egyptians vs Greeks at school.
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  #64  
Old 05-02-2021, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
(And actually, Queen Alexandrine's mother was a Russian Grand Duchess, making Alexandrine 50% German and 50% Russian (ETA: or 75% German and 25% Russian, I think, IIRC her maternal grandmother was German) but for simplicity we could let that slide )

Alexandrine was in fact 100% German, as her Russian grandfather was the son of Tsar Nikolaus I. (son of Tsar Paul who had been the son of Peter III. (of Holstein-Gottorp) and Catherine II (of Anhalt-Zerbst) and his wife Sophie of Wuerttemberg), so was as German by blood as his wife Charlotte of Prussia. Her "Russian" grandmother had been Caecilie of Baden.

So genetically Alexandrine was German from both her father's and mother's side, even though her mother was a Russian Grand Duchess.
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  #65  
Old 05-02-2021, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Alexandrine was in fact 100% German, as her Russian grandfather was the son of Tsar Nikolaus I. (son of Tsar Paul who had been the son of Peter III. (of Holstein-Gottorp) and Catherine II (of Anhalt-Zerbst) and his wife Sophie of Wuerttemberg), so was as German by blood as his wife Charlotte of Prussia. Her "Russian" grandmother had been Caecilie of Baden.

So genetically Alexandrine was German from both her father's and mother's side, even though her mother was a Russian Grand Duchess.
In this very strange game of throwing around degrees of ethnicities let's not forget the Slavic origins of the Obodrites which had Maria Pavlovna once proudly declare that she was the most Slavic of the Romanovs.
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  #66  
Old 05-02-2021, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Oh, I think we can safely say that the the feeling of ethnicity is being reset every generation in the royal families.

As has been pointed out: Mary may be ethnically Scottish, but most likely felt Australian all her life until well into her marriage with Frederik, and no doubt (hopefully, because it would be sad if she had completely discarded her roots) still does to whatever extent.

It is, I think, amusing to see how fast an otherwise "old" national family can become "foreign."
Or how long time a royal family can remain "foreign", even when being a nationalistic symbol. The BRF.

As captain Blackadder retorted when faced with the argument that Queen Victoria was an example of something archetypically British: Daughter of a German, married to a German.

Currently I'd say the DRF is hands down the best example of how a "normal" royal family was put together ethnically up until a 100 years ago.
And for various reasons, I wholeheartedly support the tradition of at least the heir marrying a foreigner.
I think it made things so much easier for Mary, our Marie and Alexandra that they were foreigners. Even if that meant that they faced other challenges.
I can safely say CP Mary has not discarded her roots. In fact, CP Frederik has very much embraced some of the Aussie way, especially calling his wife Mazza! My parents are both Italians and I was born in Australia. I am definitely 100% an Aussie; and like CP Mary, I will identify as an Aussie. When asked, I say my heritage is Italian.

But like you Muhler, I too find ethnicity extremely fascinating - it will show you how much our ancestors really did travel around the world!
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  #67  
Old 05-03-2021, 05:28 AM
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I found that after a long time till through the Middle Ages where the ethnicity was the base of where you reigned, a kind of new "caste" formed of those who belonged to the Royal families and from then on it didn't matter where their family came from, only that your birth made you "something better" than the people surrounding you and gave you the "divine right" to reign over all the others. From then on, ethnicity didn't play into anything anymore, just your ancestry. Like Franchesca of Habsburg could be the wife of the heir to the Habsburg Headship of the House, but she could never become a lady of the Order of the Starcross or take over as the leader after her mother in law. Or Princess Leonida Bagration of Mukhrani who was not considered Royal enough after the Pauline statues for marriages into the Imperial House of Russia by some, so her daughter for them is not the heiress of the throne of Russia. OTOH Elisabeth I. of England hesitated for years before she ordered her cousin Mary Stuart to be killed, because Mary was an annointed monarch and you simply didn't raise your hand against a person thus protected by the divine powers. So we should not talk about where Christian's ancestors came from, but that he is raised to be Danmark's king one day.
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